A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

[Pash]

All,

Having read the counter charge rule and blood of caledor honour, if our characters join dragon prince's, do the dragon prince's lose counter charge??

Our characters do not gain the counter charge rule via the honour. The counter charge rules states all models in the unit must have the counter charge rule..

All our Barded Elven Steeds come with Counter Charge and as special rules that apply to one element apply to both (unless stated otherwise), that means any Elf on a Barded Elven Steed has Counter Charge.

[sparkytrypod]

Great catch, thanks @Pash

[Bolt Thrower]

Maybe it could be 0-1 Lord level Character or Caster L3+ per 1,5k or 1,25k, so Prince and Archmage only at 3000 (or 2500) pts. Factions with Sorcerer Lord are reduced to L2. or Sorcerer Lord L4 only at 3000 (2500 pts)
You can still bring 1000 pts worth of characters if you want in a 2k list. But are reduced to either Prince, L2, BSB, other supporting or Archmage, Nobles, Mages and Handmaidens for a juicy Sister Corehammer. How big is too big? 30 Sisters with High Sister with the Spelleater Axe and Stubborn clock in at 522 pts.

I put in some thoughts here: https://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic ... 59#p954259
even including a shadow prince

and a bit here: https://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic ... 26#p953726
with reference to the 373 pts Lion Prince.


Edit: added Sisters reference

I have been pondering what would be the most elegant/least intrusive way to curb characters and provide event games with the type of experience W:ToW is marketed as representing I came up with the following solution for games played at2000 pts.

Characters: Max 10 Wounds in total
Core: Max 4 of each
Special: Max 3 of each
Rare: Max 2 of each
Behemots: Max 3 units or 15 Wounds in total - whichever limit is the lower one
Fly: Max 3 units


If I would want to be a bit more restrictive I would add on top
Core: Min 3 units
Special: Max 4 units in total
Rare: Max 2 units in total
Skirmish: Max 4 units

Will see how the event scene is going to shape up and explore how to further refine it.

Let's provisionally call it The Agram Comp Mk 1.0

I think option b) could be quite harsh. Only 1 Eagle and 1 Bolt Thrower, no sisters?
Option a) looks sensible. Not all monsters are Behemoths I think, not sure if this comes up for other factions. But probably exactly your intention?

Taking sisters as core could be really nice advantage in that situation.

[Giladis]

All,

Having read the counter charge rule and blood of caledor honour, if our characters join dragon prince's, do the dragon prince's lose counter charge??

Our characters do not gain the counter charge rule via the honour. The counter charge rules states all models in the unit must have the counter charge rule..

All our Barded Elven Steeds come with Counter Charge and as special rules that apply to one element apply to both (unless stated otherwise), that means any Elf on a Barded Elven Steed has Counter Charge.

As Pash said characters are covered via mounts but not every Barded Elven Steed has Counter Charge USR. Silver Helms are missing the rule.

[Morgen]

Yes, it's the character upgrade Barded Elven Steed that gets Counter Charge, it doesn't look like there are really generic rules for just any horses in the army like in previous editions. Silver Helms still have First Charge though so they're still not too shabby at smashing into units.

[Ielthan]

I'm really trying to justify not taking a dragon in my competitive list, but man is it difficult. They seem basically at least 100pts too cheap. I'm trying to figure out any other builds that can compete, the Lion Chariot Prince I like, but part of that is just because he's cool.

It's a bit frustrating the extent to which the big monster lords are distorting list building tbh. e.g. a list like this would be very tricky to face for most lists I feel, lots of shooting and magic, hits hard in CC, has static res, pretty tough, very fast, strong chaff game, hard to catch....but it doesn't look like an army imo.

===
High Elves Monsters [1999 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, High Elf Realms, High Elf Realms
===

++ Characters [957 pts] ++

Prince [507 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- Shield
- Star Dragon
- Seed of Rebirth
- Giant Blade
- Armour of Caledor
- Pure of Heart

Archmage [450 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Upgrade to Level 4
- Flamespyre Phoenix
- Annulian Crystal
- Seed of Rebirth
- Talisman of Protection
- Anointed of Asuryan
- High Magic

++ Core Units [560 pts] ++

8 Silver Helms [235 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hooves (counts as a hand weapon)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)
- Standard bearer
- War Banner
- Musician

8 Silver Helms [235 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hooves (counts as a hand weapon)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)
- Standard bearer
- War Banner
- Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers [90 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hooves (counts as a hand weapon)
- Light armour
- Scouts

++ Rare Units [482 pts] ++

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts]

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts]

Great Eagle [60 pts]

5 Sisters of Avelorn [112 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour
- High Sister
- Ruby Ring of Ruin

5 Sisters of Avelorn [75 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour

5 Sisters of Avelorn [75 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

[Ielthan]

This seems like a pretty major upgrade from Universal Battle and TTS, I'm quite impressed so far:

https://www.warhall.eu/

Can import from this army builder which also seems quite good, and can import from Battlescribe which is cool (uses the same repositories):

https://www.newrecruit.eu/app/MySystems

[Giladis]

War Banner is not a Common+ item.

[Morgen]

I'm really trying to justify not taking a dragon in my competitive list, but man is it difficult. They seem basically at least 100pts too cheap. I'm trying to figure out any other builds that can compete, the Lion Chariot Prince I like, but part of that is just because he's cool.

It's a bit frustrating the extent to which the big monster lords are distorting list building tbh. e.g. a list like this would be very tricky to face for most lists I feel, lots of shooting and magic, hits hard in CC, has static res, pretty tough, very fast, strong chaff game, hard to catch....but it doesn't look like an army imo.

There's a solution for your problem good Ielthan! It saves you a nice big chunk of points for infantry or more fleshed out units and it's still a pretty beastly. It's called a Lotheran Skycutter Griffon! It's got Terror, Large Target and Swiftstride and flies all over the place, makes about as many breath weapon attacks from the games I've watched as any dragon.

With the points you save you could get a nice big block of Ulthuan Militia of your choice! Maybe some spearmen, since you've got a lot of little sisters units, to flesh out your battle line? 160 points is a unit of 15 with Shieldwall and full command.

Also perhaps instead of an archmage on a phoenix you have an archmage in a unit of phoenix guard instead? With Anointed of Asuryan you could probably ditch the Talisman of Protection too, there's another 30 points reclaimed. Like 13 phoenix guard with command are roughly the points difference for the phoenix and the talisman. Could run a nice big block of 7x2 with the mage in the front with it's free Halberd, it's only 1 worse weapon skill and the same strength as the guard.

Then you'd have two nice moderately nice infantry blocks to support with your sisters and your silver helms and prince can go roaming around all the same.

[anorexia]

@Giladis
I saw that You played couple of games. 10 or so.
Can You share some toughts? (points, rosters, experience, overall feeling, what do You prefer moving forward etc...)

regards

[Ielthan]

I'm really trying to justify not taking a dragon in my competitive list, but man is it difficult. They seem basically at least 100pts too cheap. I'm trying to figure out any other builds that can compete, the Lion Chariot Prince I like, but part of that is just because he's cool.

It's a bit frustrating the extent to which the big monster lords are distorting list building tbh. e.g. a list like this would be very tricky to face for most lists I feel, lots of shooting and magic, hits hard in CC, has static res, pretty tough, very fast, strong chaff game, hard to catch....but it doesn't look like an army imo.

There's a solution for your problem good Ielthan! It saves you a nice big chunk of points for infantry or more fleshed out units and it's still a pretty beastly. It's called a Lotheran Skycutter Griffon! It's got Terror, Large Target and Swiftstride and flies all over the place, makes about as many breath weapon attacks from the games I've watched as any dragon.

With the points you save you could get a nice big block of Ulthuan Militia of your choice! Maybe some spearmen, since you've got a lot of little sisters units, to flesh out your battle line? 160 points is a unit of 15 with Shieldwall and full command.

Also perhaps instead of an archmage on a phoenix you have an archmage in a unit of phoenix guard instead? With Anointed of Asuryan you could probably ditch the Talisman of Protection too, there's another 30 points reclaimed. Like 13 phoenix guard with command are roughly the points difference for the phoenix and the talisman. Could run a nice big block of 7x2 with the mage in the front with it's free Halberd, it's only 1 worse weapon skill and the same strength as the guard.

Then you'd have two nice moderately nice infantry blocks to support with your sisters and your silver helms and prince can go roaming around all the same.

My point was that frankly the monsters are just so much better than any infantry unit, or even cavalry unit. At the moment in any Old World competitive list it's very hard to look beyond maxing characters on flying monsters. Infantry and more conventional armies (which I'll probably take to a tournament anyway) are fine for casual games, but realistically I suspect tournament lists are going to mostly look more like the one I posted.

[Ielthan]

War Banner is not a Common+ item.

I'd swap it for Ellyrion then.

[NHB]

I'm really trying to justify not taking a dragon in my competitive list, but man is it difficult. They seem basically at least 100pts too cheap. I'm trying to figure out any other builds that can compete, the Lion Chariot Prince I like, but part of that is just because he's cool.

It's a bit frustrating the extent to which the big monster lords are distorting list building tbh. e.g. a list like this would be very tricky to face for most lists I feel, lots of shooting and magic, hits hard in CC, has static res, pretty tough, very fast, strong chaff game, hard to catch....but it doesn't look like an army imo.

There's a solution for your problem good Ielthan! It saves you a nice big chunk of points for infantry or more fleshed out units and it's still a pretty beastly. It's called a Lotheran Skycutter Griffon! It's got Terror, Large Target and Swiftstride and flies all over the place, makes about as many breath weapon attacks from the games I've watched as any dragon.

With the points you save you could get a nice big block of Ulthuan Militia of your choice! Maybe some spearmen, since you've got a lot of little sisters units, to flesh out your battle line? 160 points is a unit of 15 with Shieldwall and full command.

Also perhaps instead of an archmage on a phoenix you have an archmage in a unit of phoenix guard instead? With Anointed of Asuryan you could probably ditch the Talisman of Protection too, there's another 30 points reclaimed. Like 13 phoenix guard with command are roughly the points difference for the phoenix and the talisman. Could run a nice big block of 7x2 with the mage in the front with it's free Halberd, it's only 1 worse weapon skill and the same strength as the guard.

Then you'd have two nice moderately nice infantry blocks to support with your sisters and your silver helms and prince can go roaming around all the same.

My point was that frankly the monsters are just so much better than any infantry unit, or even cavalry unit. At the moment in any Old World competitive list it's very hard to look beyond maxing characters on flying monsters. Infantry and more conventional armies (which I'll probably take to a tournament anyway) are fine for casual games, but realistically I suspect tournament lists are going to mostly look more like the one I posted.

Even a 600+ pts kitted out character on Monster only gets 6 charges a game. We better make sure some of them are failed or at low value targets. With no double combats.

[pathstrider]

My point was that frankly the monsters are just so much better than any infantry unit, or even cavalry unit. At the moment in any Old World competitive list it's very hard to look beyond maxing characters on flying monsters. Infantry and more conventional armies (which I'll probably take to a tournament anyway) are fine for casual games, but realistically I suspect tournament lists are going to mostly look more like the one I posted.

Even a 600+ pts kitted out character on Monster only gets 6 charges a game. We better make sure some of them are failed or at low value targets. With no double combats.

I feel like it's a bit of a stand-off as ridden monsters seem to be the only counter to ridden monsters.

*but* if your ridden monster is almost-as-expensive-but-not-quite-as-good-as the enemy you've fed them a way to make it's points back.

[Morgen]

Honestly from a tournament aspect these giant 400+ point characters on monsters look to me like they're just big easy to deal with loot pinatas that will have a tough time getting their points back compared to a lot of other units which would be a lot more fun to play with. That's me though.

[Ielthan]

Honestly from a tournament aspect these giant 400+ point characters on monsters look to me like they're just big easy to deal with loot pinatas that will have a tough time getting their points back compared to a lot of other units which would be a lot more fun to play with. That's me though.

I think that's the key issue; can they get their points back, I'm not yet sure. I don't really agree that they're easy to deal with. High Elves are better equipped than most armies with bolt throwers, the white sword and our own big gribblies, but I feel other armies are going to have a very difficult time with them, especially when there's more than one.

[Csjarrat]

Points denial is also a thing, but needs the rest of the list to hold together well enough or out-punch the opponent's non-gribbly bits. Not convinced t3+ elves are great at that bit though

[Tethlis]

I agree. A 400 point monster that doesn't die all game and preserves your General can still be a worthwhile investment, even if it does nothing at all. Hard to imagine a Star Dragon doing nothing, though! In TOW, a lot of units won't get their points back. Just based on my experience so far, it's very possible for 700 point blocks and characters to bash on each other all game and ever actually yield any points one way or another. It's just too hard to decidedly break big units that are testing on Ld9+ rerollable. But they can still be valuable if they're preserving their own points, and stopping your opponent's elite unit from bullying your weak stuff. Then it becomes a game of movement, shooting, and concentrating smaller units in vulnerable targets. And elves are pretty good at that.

[Houdini]

I know it has already been discussed but I felt like the jury was still out……Can a Warden of Saphery Mage take magic armour? I personally feel the Ithilmar armour wording “ A Wizard with this special rule may wear armour without penalty” cancels out the BBB rules and allows the Mage to take magical armour?

[Morgen]

Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent. BBB page 340. High elf mages have no option to be equipped with armor and Warden of Saphery does not give them any ability to equip or purchase armor. Ithilmar armour is not armor but instead a special rule that allows for re-rolling dangerous terrain tests and allows a mage with said rule to be able to cast spells while wearing armor.

So no, by the rules as they stand a mage with Warden of Saphery cannot purchase magical armor as they have no armor options to have magical equivalents of.

[Csjarrat]

Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent. BBB page 340. High elf mages have no option to be equipped with armor and Warden of Saphery does not give them any ability to equip or purchase armor. Ithilmar armour is not armor but instead a special rule that allows for re-rolling dangerous terrain tests and allows a mage with said rule to be able to cast spells while wearing armor.

So no, by the rules as they stand a mage with Warden of Saphery cannot purchase magical armor as they have no armor options to have magical equivalents of.

Unless it gets faq'd I'm going with this as the most logical work-through of the rules.

[Prince of Spires]

Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent. BBB page 340. High elf mages have no option to be equipped with armor and Warden of Saphery does not give them any ability to equip or purchase armor. Ithilmar armour is not armor but instead a special rule that allows for re-rolling dangerous terrain tests and allows a mage with said rule to be able to cast spells while wearing armor.

So no, by the rules as they stand a mage with Warden of Saphery cannot purchase magical armor as they have no armor options to have magical equivalents of.

Unless it gets faq'd I'm going with this as the most logical work-through of the rules.

We discussed this before in this thread (see here: viewtopic.php?p=954735#p954735 )

I'm going to disagree on this reading.

The Ithilmar Armour rule definitely allows a mage to get around the BBB rule of "mages can not cast spells while wearing armour." It clearly states that in the rule: "a mage may wear armour without penalty".

The remaining question then is, does this mean that they may wear armour or not.

The most common interpretation of the magical armour rule on BBB p340, "Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent", is that if a character can purchase some kind of mundane armour, then they can purchase all types of magical armour. Plenty of people would give a magical shield to a Handmaiden or the armour of Caledor without a second thought. And that makes the most sense, otherwise there are magical armour's that can't be taken by any character. No character has the option to take "a suit of armour" and yet all of them can take the armour of Silvered Steel. The different helms also have no armour type, and still all characters who can take armour can take them.

So may take some kind of mundane armour allows you to take all types of magical armour. It works for all other characters.

Now can a mage do it? To me the part of the sentence "a mage may wear armour" is pretty clear and self-explanatory. A mage is allowed to wear armour. They gain that ability with this honour. Therefore, the BBB rule on p340 of needing to be able to equip armour is fulfilled, and thus they are able to wear magical armour.

[Ielthan]

Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent. BBB page 340. High elf mages have no option to be equipped with armor and Warden of Saphery does not give them any ability to equip or purchase armor. Ithilmar armour is not armor but instead a special rule that allows for re-rolling dangerous terrain tests and allows a mage with said rule to be able to cast spells while wearing armor.

So no, by the rules as they stand a mage with Warden of Saphery cannot purchase magical armor as they have no armor options to have magical equivalents of.

Unless it gets faq'd I'm going with this as the most logical work-through of the rules.

We discussed this before in this thread (see here: viewtopic.php?p=954735#p954735 )

I'm going to disagree on this reading.

The Ithilmar Armour rule definitely allows a mage to get around the BBB rule of "mages can not cast spells while wearing armour." It clearly states that in the rule: "a mage may wear armour without penalty".

The remaining question then is, does this mean that they may wear armour or not.

The most common interpretation of the magical armour rule on BBB p340, "Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent", is that if a character can purchase some kind of mundane armour, then they can purchase all types of magical armour. Plenty of people would give a magical shield to a Handmaiden or the armour of Caledor without a second thought. And that makes the most sense, otherwise there are magical armour's that can't be taken by any character. No character has the option to take "a suit of armour" and yet all of them can take the armour of Silvered Steel. The different helms also have no armour type, and still all characters who can take armour can take them.

So may take some kind of mundane armour allows you to take all types of magical armour. It works for all other characters.

Now can a mage do it? To me the part of the sentence "a mage may wear armour" is pretty clear and self-explanatory. A mage is allowed to wear armour. They gain that ability with this honour. Therefore, the BBB rule on p340 of needing to be able to equip armour is fulfilled, and thus they are able to wear magical armour.

Agreed. 28 years of warhammer tells me they wouldn't have put this in, as well a piece of art depicting a mage wearing a breastplate/cuirass, without intending for the mages to be able to wear armour. GW rules writers aren't that nuanced.

[Pash]

Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent. BBB page 340. High elf mages have no option to be equipped with armor and Warden of Saphery does not give them any ability to equip or purchase armor. Ithilmar armour is not armor but instead a special rule that allows for re-rolling dangerous terrain tests and allows a mage with said rule to be able to cast spells while wearing armor.

So no, by the rules as they stand a mage with Warden of Saphery cannot purchase magical armor as they have no armor options to have magical equivalents of.

Unless it gets faq'd I'm going with this as the most logical work-through of the rules.

We discussed this before in this thread (see here: viewtopic.php?p=954735#p954735 )

I'm going to disagree on this reading.

The Ithilmar Armour rule definitely allows a mage to get around the BBB rule of "mages can not cast spells while wearing armour." It clearly states that in the rule: "a mage may wear armour without penalty".

The remaining question then is, does this mean that they may wear armour or not.

The most common interpretation of the magical armour rule on BBB p340, "Only a model equipped with (or that has the option to be equipped with) armor, shields or barding may purchase a magical equivalent", is that if a character can purchase some kind of mundane armour, then they can purchase all types of magical armour. Plenty of people would give a magical shield to a Handmaiden or the armour of Caledor without a second thought. And that makes the most sense, otherwise there are magical armour's that can't be taken by any character. No character has the option to take "a suit of armour" and yet all of them can take the armour of Silvered Steel. The different helms also have no armour type, and still all characters who can take armour can take them.

So may take some kind of mundane armour allows you to take all types of magical armour. It works for all other characters.

Now can a mage do it? To me the part of the sentence "a mage may wear armour" is pretty clear and self-explanatory. A mage is allowed to wear armour. They gain that ability with this honour. Therefore, the BBB rule on p340 of needing to be able to equip armour is fulfilled, and thus they are able to wear magical armour.

Also agreed with this interpretation. GW rules are very rarely clear-cut but if they do go out their way to mention something, it's for a reason. In this case, when they mention that a "Wizard with this special rule may wear armour without penalty", it's as clear an indication we have that they may wear armour without penalty.

It might not be written as clearly as you'd like but the intention is clear and the written text support it. Arguing any further just means you have your own interpretation, which is fine but it is not the concensus.

[Ielthan]

Just flicked through the Empire list, they lost their mechanical horse

Also warrior priests of Ulric are gooooood. Now if only they'd bring back Teutogen guard...

[Morgen]

Yes, they can wear armor without penalty. They have no ability to buy any actual armor.

Is the High Elf Mage with the Warden of Saphery honor equipped with nonmagical armor or shields? No.
Does the High Elf Mage with the Warden of Saphery honor have the option to be equipped with nonmagical armor or shields? No.

Those are the only two qualifiers beyond paying points and the high elf mage fails both of them. They're able to wear armor, but they're not able to be equipped with any. No options and no equipment means no magical equivalents.

Barding however you've got access to on the barded elven steed, so magical barding is okay...if there is any? Of course if you want a mage in armor you've got Loremaster/Blood of Caledor/Wizarding Hats/etc. Learning to be a Swordmaster of Hoeth doesn't involve a lot of actual armor training it looks like.

Just flicked through the Empire list, they lost their mechanical horse

Yeah, the Astra Millitarum in 40k stole the mechanical horse unfortunately.

[Csjarrat]

Yeah, I wouldn't take it as 100% that you can take armour with lore of saphery and if you do, prepare for potential push back from opponents. Seen several threads on Facebook where both sides of view had been argued clearly with rules references on both sides with hundreds of replies pretty quickly. I'd have a backup list with you in case you run into issues at the club/event/tournament you're planning on running it at

[Halinn]

This issue, alongside Drilled when charging, is at the top of my list of things I want answered by GW

[TyrrenAzureblade]

I hope folks are sending these questions in to oldworldFAQ@gwplc.com en masse so they're answered in their next FAQ/errata.

[Bolt Thrower]

I hope folks are sending these questions in to oldworldFAQ@gwplc.com en masse so they're answered in their next FAQ/errata.

I have sent it in. I am fairly certain the intention is that the Ithilmar Armour special rule is meant to allow it, but I can track both sides of the debate.

I’m just not sure for what purpose the rule would say a wizard may wear armour if there is no chance of one ever wearing it.