A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Guerrilla Miniatures Games has posted a video going through the High Elf section of the Forces of Fantasy book. Lots of interesting things in there. Notably the very powerful stuff has been toned down quite a bit. No more army-wide Strikes First, but units with Elven Reflexes get a +1 to Initiative in the first round of combat though, and units with the Ithilmar Weapons special rule and fighting with hand weapons get to reroll 1s. Phoenix Guard ward has been reduced to a 6++ against non-magical attacks, pretty much wards across the board have been toned down, Swordmasters are 1A, but ignore armor/regeneration saves on 6s to wound. Very interesting stuff, I'm excited to get my army on the table!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06MYY5levGo

[SpellArcher]

Thanks for this Tyrren (and to GMG Reviews of course). A lot of options it seems.

[Morgen]

I just finished watching and I think I'll be very happy playing HE in this game. We can build a variety of different army styles and units so it's enticing to me. Lots of mount options and theme list possibilities.

I love that archers can be a detachment of spearmen. Wanted that for ages.

I'm so using my sword masters as a main force.

Really just seems like a lot of older ideas coming back and keeping the newer things that were at least somewhat popular. I'm excited at least.

[Giladis]

The rough overview is that HE have seen an across-the-range Initiative reduction comparable to the shift that happened from 5th to 6th edition. Everyone besides Swordmasters and Sisters of Avelorn have less Initiative. Part of it is compensated via Elven Reflexes that are first round of combat +1 to In AWSR, while Princes and Nobles kept Strike First which is now In 10.

All of the Special units have some kind of limitation who can join them which will reinforce their thematic appeal though it might make the army feel a bit disjointed/tribal.

Loremasters of Hoeth are now upgrades for Princes and Nobles increasing their combat prowess but their magic prowess has been reduced to knowing just 4 spells and being only Level 1 Wizards.

Princes and Nobles got access to Plate Armour, as did the Phoenix Guard (though at a cost as their Ward was reduced 6+ and 5+ vs Flaming).

Spearmen, Sea Guard and Phoenix Guard can make supporting attacks in any direction which makes the Guard an especially porcupiny unit since their weapons give the FIER, AP 1 and Armour Bane (1).

Archers can be detached to another unit and all bow weapons gain Ap 1 and Armour Bane (1) making HE ranged units quite lethal compared to previous editions. I wonder if it will further reinforce the Castle-Countercharge approach that is widespread for the army.

White Lions become a light unit but with the best GW in the game at AP3, not to mention all becoming champions for the purpose of challenges.

Swordmasters have a two handed weapon that is like GW but strikes at In and has magical attacks, on top they have gained MR (1), but have been reduced down to A1

Shadow Warriors and Sisters of Avelorn can be upgraded to Ambush while Reavers can be upgraded to Scout or Skirmish.

Silver Helms are pretty much the basic "Knight Unit" in ToW with HE specific rules on top.

Dragon Princes gained Full Plate and whole plethora of elite "Knight Unit" should have in ToW. I would hazard a guess they are now clearly superior to Chaos Knights and either comparable or slightly below Chosen Knights.

Tiranoc Chariots can be taken in units of 1 more than before which means that without Step Up they will be terrifying - 4D6 S5 Impact Hits before any other attacks can heavily dent most units in the game and "blow up" a fair number of solo characters - for a rather modest investment of 15% at 2000 pts

Lion Chariots lost 1 point of Strength on the lions pulling the chassis.

Great Eagles were seriously buffed with an additional attack that has MW (2), its basic attacks getting Ap 2, and on top of that Fear for just 10 pts increase to the historical price.

Sadly RBTs lost a point of T but and are more expensive compared to 8th.

Overall in a 2000 pts army one can comfortably fit 4 Great Eagles and 3 Bolt Throwers for all the chaff and missle support one could want.


As far as ASR go all Wizards got OPT reroll of failed cast spell, all elves re-roll panic from casualties and friendly fleeing.



Overall it looks interesting. Now I need to see how much smaller the ToW army will be compared to T9A, and how it will stack vs 8th, 7th, 6th and 5th ed army books.

[ArhangelusM]

Sounds interesting...

Will have to test it out.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

I’m not seeing where all bows get AP (1) and Armor Bane (1). Did I miss something?

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Also, I wish Swordmasters got Strikes First instead of the Sisters, fluff-wise I think that makes more sense I’d gladly give up Cleaving Blows (Strikes?) for that.

[Giladis]

I’m not seeing where all bows get AP (1) and Armor Bane (1). Did I miss something?

In the AWSR section.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

If you're referring to Arrows of Isha, you may want to reread that and then unit entries. Arrows of Isha are not army wide, they are a special rule for the Sisters of Avelorn and the Handmaiden. Archers have long bows, and Lothern Sea Guard have Warbows.

[NHB]

Also the Naval Discipline Rule was fixed and it is now a SR for the unit and not the Sea Helm.

[Morgen]

I'm torn on core. I like the idea of doing a knight heavy list with silver helms for at least one list, but I like both spearmen/archers and that navel discipline on the sea guard..

The ability to deploy wide for a large shooting phase or two to move into a stand and shoot and then form up ranks seems like I'd be really solid for a core unit. Or will we need to be more aggressive than that. Hmmm.. My local meta seems chaos heavy.

[Giladis]

If you're referring to Arrows of Isha, you may want to reread that and then unit entries. Arrows of Isha are not army wide, they are a special rule for the Sisters of Avelorn and the Handmaiden. Archers have long bows, and Lothern Sea Guard have Warbows.

You are correct on the allocation what confused me is that the rule itself specifically mentions Longbow, Shortbow, Warbow and the Bow of Avelorn. All the models that come with the rule also come with the Bow of Avelorn. The only other interaction of the given rule is with the Reaver Bow which also counts as a Bow of Avelorn. The rule could have just been merged into the Bow of Avelorn and Reaver Bow profile. Sure non Handmaidens would get access to a slightly better Magical Weapon but I think that would have been a better approach from a Games Design pov. Feels a bit pointless to exist as it currently stands. The only thing that would excuse its existence would be if one of the HE armies of infamy was heavily reliant on the rule.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

I’m really curious to see if there’s an enchantment that buffs Strength, in which case LSG with Warbows are going to be scary. No AP but easier to score wounds. If Sea Guard could purchase Shield Wall I suspect spearmen would go completely ignored.

[NHB]

I’m really curious to see if there’s an enchantment that buffs Strength, in which case LSG with Warbows are going to be scary. No AP but easier to score wounds. If Sea Guard could purchase Shield Wall I suspect spearmen would go completely ignored.

Also no Detachments on LSG. Would be awkward anyway with Naval Discipline. Still, will Archers Detachments see much fielding besides fluffy lists?

[TyrrenAzureblade]

I’m really curious to see if there’s an enchantment that buffs Strength, in which case LSG with Warbows are going to be scary. No AP but easier to score wounds. If Sea Guard could purchase Shield Wall I suspect spearmen would go completely ignored.

Also no Detachments on LSG. Would be awkward anyway with Naval Discipline. Still, will Archers Detachments see much fielding besides fluffy lists?

Ooooh, good call, I forgot about that. Having Archers as detachments make Spearmen a bit more interesting. Especially if the Archers can stand and shoot for the Spearmen if they're charged (as I understand it currently, I could very well be wrong since I don't have the BBB yet). Apparently they'll also be able to counter-charge. Can't wait to get my hands on the damn books.

[Giladis]

I am fascinated how at least on paper all three of the elite infantry units appear close in their abilities. In all editions I have played this was never the case.

White Lions have superior mobility and can keep enemy characters occupied while our characters go to town on their units.

Swordmasters are outright deadly.

Phoenix Guard are the most resilient of the three while still being decent in combat. Supporting attacks in the flank and read makes them a rather capable anvil.

[anorexia]

Archers can be detached to another unit and all bow weapons gain Ap 1 and Armour Bane (1) making HE ranged units quite lethal compared to previous editions.

ap1 is only for models with arrows of isha. archers dont have it. they are worse than ever. WE bows are 32 inches with 4/5 upgrades.

Dragon Princes gained Full Plate and whole plethora of elite "Knight Unit" should have in ToW. I would hazard a guess they are now clearly superior to Chaos Knights and either comparable or slightly below Chosen Knights.

nope. they have impetuous special rule. u must charge on 1-3 k6 roll. worst cav in the game. i will never take them. same goes for dragonmage and blood of caledor honour. its worse than frenzy, with frenzy i have +1 attack

Sadly RBTs lost a point of T but and are more expensive compared to 8th.

they are now k3+3 shots. and -1ap, will take a hard look if they are worth taking.

As far as ASR go all Wizards got OPT reroll of failed cast spell, all elves re-roll panic from casualties and friendly fleeing.

agree, best mages in the game.

Overall it looks interesting. Now I need to see how much smaller the ToW army will be compared to T9A, and how it will stack vs 8th, 7th, 6th and 5th ed army books.

dunno about that. WE have better shooting, better core infrantry, better cavalery (sisters) and a better dragon (yes, no trolling). Our dragons are only better with breathing fire.
i'm sceptical

regards

[Axiem]

I went through the process of transcribing the video contents into a spreadsheet. Learned some interesting things.

- Honors and characters are almost completely independent! Freaking awesome: you can have a mage from Chrace, or from Caledor, and each Honour has something you can take for free (like Full Plate, Halberd, Bow, etc.) associated with it, meaning Mages especially get a benefit of taking different honors than before;

- Mounts are almost completely independent, meaning you can put a Mage on a Frost / Fire Phoenix. Very awesome;

- Lileath's Blessing is per model, not once per army, which is crazy good. Spamming level 1 mages, going for a 50-50% chance spell (7-8 to cast) with a re-roll sounds like a pretty good way to use some points; Coven's might seriously be a thing;

- Null Stone on Dragon looks like it's a thing;

- Hand of Kahine looks like it will be a very easy way to give the Loremaster a few no-armour saves hit;

- Sea Guard have their free reform, and may perform it after stand and shoot if I'm reading it right. Looks like 11ppm as well (page is hard to make out). If true, actual real balance between Spears/Archers/Sea Guard this time around;

- Phoenix Guard went up in points to 16 but lost their 4+ Ward. 100 point magic standard is nice, but that seems quite bad for thee points;

- I didn't see a restriction on who can be the BSB? Has anyone else seen this? If you can make a Handmaiden the BSB, and she makes a unit of Sisters Core, that seems very very good;

- Ellyrian Reavers with option to Ambush / Skirmish seems very interesting;

- Dragon Princes seem very good with both Ithilmar Barding and Ithilmar Weapons; Impetuous though, so something to watch;

- Elven Steeds have Fast Cavalry, so unless there is a Rulebook rule preventing, you can put Wizards in Ellyrian Reavers. DE Playstyle unlocked, and also can take a Magic Banner on Reavers. Very nice;

- Multiple good ways to get armor + ward / Regen or other save. Looks like EAF possible, list building now;

- Lion Chariots have First Charge;

- Fire Phoenix only 170 points looks tasty;


If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet, you can view it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Give yourself some leeway for any mistakes I may have made, but hope it helps!

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Morgen]

The Pheonix Guard lost 2 points on the ward save but gained a point of armor. Full plate on them to me is appealing. I know I'm going to try and field at least one unit. They could be good as troops that can force breaks with unit strength/fear.

[Axiem]

Not likely at 16ppm. Too expensive to overwhelm with enough bodies. Their ward also doesn't work against Magic. Sword Masters and Lion Guard look much more interesting as a combat element to me. It's one of my favorite units so if I can find a way to make it work I'll play it, but right now not looking good.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Tethlis]

The big thing with Phoenix Guard is that they're outputting double the attacks that White Lions and Swordmasters are, in any turn they aren't charging. Clearing their kill zone will be difficult, and PG swinging double the attacks of their comrades means that their damage output is comparable or better in many situations.

Phoenix Guard outputting, say, 15 Attacks (7 wide, 2 ranks, champion) compared to a mere 8 from Swordmasters (7 wide, 1 rank, champion) is massive.

Fear is also a significant rule now. Far from being a negligible quantity, both as an offensive and a defensive tool.

I did think White Lions were in trouble compared to the other two due to their lack of Initiative, but I think they can leverage their mobility + Stubborn to very easily set traps for enemies. They can play heavily with opposing charge arcs, using Stubborn to potentially force enemies into bad situations that force that opponent to reveal a flank or rear in order to turn and address the Lions. I'm not convinced it'll be worth it over the other two elite infantry, but it is different, and could potentially be strong.

I'd be shocked if any of our Core infantry really pan out. Seaguard sound promising but I haven't heard anything in Spearmen or Archers that get me excited for them compared to Core cav. The general weakness of shooting is frankly shocking. I anticipate doing what I did in 8th, and what I've done in Warhammer Armies Project... Reaver and Helms Core, Bolt Thrower and Frost Phoenix Rare (with however many Eagles will fit) and then Special elite infantry of choice.

For characters, I think bringing back the Cavalry Prince has appeal. Counter Charge is a really nice tool for cavalry to break standoffs against one another, and I think it plays nicely to Elves since we benefit from high Initiative. I think a decent character in there to break those deadlocks and plow through enemy fast units could help clear the table of chaff, seize control of the Movement phase, and help offset generally weak shooting.

Bolster it with an Archmage, or multiple Level 1s depending on how the Dispel bubbles and price points shake down, and that feels like a comfortable list. Level 4s combined with some of our anti magic items sound like they can really limit enemy casting, so the pricier single caster could be great for stacking those negative mods.

[anorexia]

I'd be shocked if any of our Core infantry really pan out. The general weakness of shooting is frankly shocking. I anticipate doing what I did in 8th, and what I've done in Warhammer Armies Project... Reaver and Helms Core, Bolt Thrower and Frost Phoenix Rare (with however many Eagles will fit) and then Special elite infantry of choice.

you are absolutly right about shooting. its just weak. but our spearman are something worth looking at. shield wall rule allows u to take 1 break test as stubborn. so u can setup some form of a trap.

If you can make a Handmaiden the BSB, and she makes a unit of Sisters Core, that seems very very good;

she has 8 Ld. she needs to be army general to make sisters core. so only way to do it, is with games that include only mages and handmaiden. so never :<

- Lion Chariots have First Charge;
- Fire Phoenix only 170 points looks tasty;

thats very nice indeed. looking forward to playing it.
tiranoc chariot is 1-4 per unit. 75 per model. will check this thing out also.

but my personal favorite is archmage on stardragon with 4+/5++/5++.

- Ellyrian Reavers with option to Ambush / Skirmish seems very interesting;

agree, and very cheep too!!

regards

[Tethlis]

Impact hits have good potential in TOW, but Tiranoc chariots are just crazy expensive to me. Always have been. Maybe it's possible to get away with that bad survivability now that shooting is so poor, but I haven't seen the rules for cannons yet, so we'll see. Bolt throwers look as poor as ever, and the repeater feature is nerfed from what I hear (D3 + 3 shots for higher cost, can someone confirm?) Still valuable because they'll kill redirectors pretty nicely, but certainly not appealing compared to WAP or even 8th edition.

[Giladis]

- I didn't see a restriction on who can be the BSB? Has anyone else seen this?

In the BSB box.

Only Nobles can be BSB.

As far as BSB-s are concerned is that they no longer have to split their magic allowance between banners and offensive/defensive gear. You get 50 pts to tool them up and then you can put any banner on top.

[anorexia]

RBT is 100% k3+3 shots. ap1, armour bane 1. sadly.

with first glance of the RB i did not notice str7 autodestroy chariot rule. and i was searching for it.
heavy chariots are ap2 impact hits. so lion chariot is not that bad. 4+ save and lion cloak special rule. so 3+ vs nonmagical shooting.

and 2 more things:
u can stomp everything now, exept monstrous creatures and behemoths.
armour save on ridden monster is not cumulative. meaning that if you put high elf lord on star dragon with only a shield he has 6+ save and the dragon has 4+, and you use a better one.

regards

[Giladis]

Prince on a Star Dragon can have 2+ save with another 90 pts to spare on equipment, probably add Seeds of Rebirth or Talisman of Protection and then pick a weapon for 60-70 pts. That is both quite tanky as well as capable of smashing any unit they come into contact with. Only thing they are concerned about are warmachines to an extent and other monstrous characters.

[anorexia]

@Giladis,
prince on star dragon, full plate, shield,
dragon helm (+1 as) 10 pts
seed of rebirth (regen 5+) 20 pts
Ogre blade (+2str, -2ap, magical attacks, armourbane 1, multiple wounds d3) 65 pkt
tanky with a d3 multiple wound twist ;]

[Giladis]

I am looking at building a traditional 5th ed style list to pair with my old school Dwarf list for games at home.

Something along the lines:

Archmage - High Magic, Lore Familiar and something else to go along
Noble - Loremaster, BSB, Silver Wand and some defensive equipment
2x21 Sea Guard - FC, Veterans
21 Swordmasters - FC, Drilled
21 White Lions - FC, Veterans
5 Shadow Warriors
2 RBT
2 GE

I went through the process of transcribing the video contents into a spreadsheet.

The missing thing on Shadow Warriors is Chariot Runners and on Sisters it is Stubborn

[NHB]

Prince on Lion Chariot, Full Plate, Shield

Dragon Helm
Seed of Rebirth / Opal Amulet
White Sword

373 Pts

Gives on Charge
@I10: D6 Impact Hits S5 AP-2
@I10 4x WS7 S7 AP-2 (Monster Slayer, Magical Attacks)
@I7 5x WS5 S4
@I5 2x WS5 S6 AP-3

He also has Move through Cover which sounds super strong and Stubborn, even if the White Sword gets "Unmade" you still have a CGB. with +2S and AP-3
2+ 3+ in CC 5++ (seed) or 2++ first wound (Opal)
coming in at T4 and W7

Sounds like a fun little threat. Can also drop the White Blade, stick with the CGB and squeeze in an Archmage in under 500pts.

[anorexia]

@Giladis
i think spearmen are better, shield wall lets u take 1 break of your choice as a stubborn test. so no charge for enemy in next combat turn.

@NHB
cool dude. gonna try the guy 100%. seems nasty xD