Ulthuan

Hi all,
Still trying to get the occasional fix of square base glory in, and the consensus locally seems to be that 6th ed army books under 7th ed core rules is the most balanced approach. With that as the context I'm trying to build a competitive 2000 point list. I've always loved the cavalry heavy builds, but have mixed feelings as to how heavily to invest in magic. Would very much appreciate comments/advice around the two tournament archetypes I'm considering.

At this stage, the common elements are:

2 x 5 ellyrion reavers, spears
1 x tiranoc chariot
2 x 5 silver helms (with all armour add ons)
BSB with the battle banner (+d6 combat res)
Lvl 2 mounted mage with ring of fury and jewel of dusk.
2 x RBTs
2 x Great Eagles

Archetype 1 also includes:
Lvl 4 archmage mounted, 2 x dispel scroll, silver wand, ring of corin
6 x silverhelms with banner of ellyrion (ignore dangerous terrain)
5 x Dragon Princes (banner of sorcery)

Archetype 2 includes
Lvl 2 mage, 2 x dispel scroll
10 x silverhelms with banner of ellyrion (or alternatively 2 x 5 elf units)
10 x Dragon Princes (lion standard)

Archetype 1 includes the ability to be much more aggressive in the magic phase, and the ability (after turn 1-2 when any defensive dispel scrolls are gone) to get a decent number of spells through per turn. Defence would also be enhanced through the ability to potentially destroy magic items with the ring of corin. Schools I'd lean into would be generally be heaven, metal or life depending on the match up/terrain.

Archetype 2 would result in minimal magical offence (essentially just enough to keep the opponent honest in dispelling), but have two larger cav units to provide more durability in the way in and have a better chance of outnumbering the enemy through unit strength (though at the downside of a marginally larger unit footprint).

Originally I had leaned towards the magic heavy build (High elves being one of the heavy hitters magic wise), but gee I could get some more pointy ears on horses for the point cost. 7th ed is also obviously not 8th where magic phases are so often crippling in terms of damage, but the ability to (relatively) reliably have the advantage in that phase is attractive.

What are peoples thoughts/advice/experience running magic heavy cav lists?

Welcome Doreaver.



I've moved this topic to Warhammer 8th Edition for visibility. It's a slight misnomer but tends to be our catch-all for all 8th and earlier content. A copy remains in the original forum.

The cavalry army that sticks in my mind from 6th Edition is the one Rob Lane used to great success. This had three or four Silver Helms units, each eight strong. To retain rank bonus under 7th these would need to be 10's of course. It also had four chariots and some Reavers, possibly some Eagles? It had a BSB, Noble, Lvl 2 and Prince with Radiant Gem, all mounted. These characters floated around the Helm units, joining them when required. The army basically just ran most foes over with combo-charges.

Your second Archetype has some similarities to this, RBT replacing three of the chariots. It omits some of the fighting characters but seems to have more cavalry and the Battle Banner is obviously potent. I would worry about the bearer dying but maybe that's 8th edition thinking. Your list seems more flexible but less able to pile on masses of combat res where required, Battle Banner excepted.

The first Archetype goes full MSU cav and obviously heavy magic. Arguably a cavalry list wants to attack fast, versus shootier opposition for example. This might conflict with the heavy magic wanting to take more time to wear the enemy down. With MSU though I guess you could probe and run that Archmage around, though lack of a larger unit to confer reliable Look out Sir could be an issue.

Cheers - I did wonder where the post went for a bit there . Is there a link with bat reps/further musings on this list you reference?.

You’re right in that the magic heavy approach won’t be able to hang about and weather heavy shooting…though I dare say that’s not really an option with any cav build. I’m not expecting to burn through any magic defence until turn 2-3 in any event, so the knights will have to get stuck in and just pick their fights…

i would almost think that an annulian crystal on a mage would get more work done over the course of a game than a dispel scroll. definitely up for debate, but high elves, banner of sorcery, and an archmage with staff of sorcery paired w/ a mage w/ annulian crystal is a pretty solid magic phase no matter whos turn it is

Doreaver wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:20 pm Is there a link with bat reps/further musings on this list you reference?

I couldn't spot much from a quick search of Ulthuan. There is one thread with a photo of the army. As pointed out elsewhere by elendor_f, the Helms were in fact in a twelve and two eights.

viewtopic.php?t=70865#p923125

taldarinzphoenix wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:18 pm annulian crystal

A great item, personally I would also try to bring a scroll.

Well, the tournie is done and dusted, I went with the magic heavy approach and ended up 5th overall, with a massacre for, a massacre against, and a solid victory for.

Game 1 was against vampire counts with a block of black knights, multiple units of dogs, a big graveguard block, some fell bats and a unit of skeles. Vampire, two thralls and a necro. I generally controlled the VC magic phase, but I couldn't make a fear test to save myself so combo charges didn't happen, I messed up my target priority with shooting (didn't realise fell bats were skirmishers) and critically miscast on 4 dice at a key point. After some poor dice rolls early across pretty much every phase (a charging unit of Dragon Princes and BSB killed a total of two Grave Guard ), I overcompensated with my magic dice allocation, and my opponent was very clever with his timing of unveiling the bound spell book which allows a casting of vahnel's danse macabre. Game turned on turn 3 and the autobreak from losing combat against outnumbered feared enemy meant I spent the last couple of turns just breaking and being run down.

Game 2 was against VC again, three blocks of skeletons, another big block of graveguard, and some spirit hosts. A vamp, necro and bsb. The game was played amidst a number of buildings, and I was able to isolate his outlying units one at a time. My spell rolls in this game were very strong (I don't think I rolled less than 5 on a d6 any time I cast the Light magic missile spell and I learnt my lesson about the bound book. There were a couple of nervous moments with some zombies getting raised near my bolt throwers and at the rear of my cav, but the brave bolt thrower crew held back 8 of the shambling horde to provide enough time for the cavalry to arrive (literally). At the end of the game my entire army basically surrounded his grave guard block, blasted it down and then charged in to finish off the vamp, who died to crumble. With scenario vps it ended up being a 3500 to zip scoreline.

Game 3 was against a Khorne chaos warrior list, a Lvl 2 unaligned sorcerer, two blocks of warriors led by heroes, two big blocks of marauders, 6 chaos knights and a unit of marauder cav. My opponent mispositioned his mage (with no look out sir) so lost him on my first turn, and was obviously concerned about my ability to outmaneouvre him, and once my eagles got into his back lines a combination of march blocking and difficult terrain convinced him he couldn't get to grips with me. With him not willing to commit, it became a very low risk game where I just played refused flank on one side, and used shooting and magic to remove his knights, did likewise to thin 1 marauder block until I forced it to flee (and be caught) from a combo charge, and chased off his light cav. I then started targeting one of the warrior blocks and got it to below half strength by the bottom of the sixth turn. I didn't lose a single elf during the game, but with my opponent having an untouched (though surely winded) unit each of marauders and chaos warriors, and both heros still alive, it ended up 'only' a major victory.

In these match ups I think the magic heavy approach was the way to go, I don't think the extra few bodies would have been enough to avoid the autobreaks in the first game, overall the VC magic phases were manageable.

I'd like to try an infantry build but just not sure how it can be competitive...?

Doreaver wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:33 pm Well, the tournie is done and dusted, I went with the magic heavy approach and ended up 5th overall, with a massacre for, a massacre against, and a solid victory for.

Well played sir!

Doreaver wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:33 pm my opponent was very clever with his timing of unveiling the bound spell book which allows a casting of vahnel's danse macabre. Game turned on turn 3 and the autobreak from losing combat against outnumbered feared enemy meant I spent the last couple of turns just breaking and being run down.

This sounds unpleasantly familiar from 6th Edition.

Doreaver wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:33 pm At the end of the game my entire army basically surrounded his grave guard block, blasted it down and then charged in to finish off the vamp, who died to crumble. With scenario vps it ended up being a 3500 to zip scoreline.

Nice!

Doreaver wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:33 pm With him not willing to commit, it became a very low risk game

A well-executed one by the sounds of it.

Doreaver wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:33 pm In these match ups I think the magic heavy approach was the way to go, I don't think the extra few bodies would have been enough to avoid the autobreaks in the first game, overall the VC magic phases were manageable.

I found this excellent discussion and tactics thread from druchii.net and Rob Lane mentions that VC's are probably his list's most difficult foe. That said, I remember them being very strong in 6th in general and I would imagine his roster is far from helpless there.

https://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=11924

Doreaver wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:33 pm I'd like to try an infantry build but just not sure how it can be competitive...?

I'd suggest a look at good shooting combined with souped up High Magic, perhaps with Swordmasters.