HE vs. Stegadons

Message

babalubeaga · #61 Post by **babalubeaga** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:38 am

another issue I have with them is their unit strength in comparison to their base size. Frontage wise you can only get 4 man/horse models in base contact with them from the front, and only 3 40mm bases. This severely limits your killing power and on the charge they can effective wipe out your offense, giving you very little if anything to hit back with.
Encountering 1 stegadon this way is not such a problem, but when they use multiple stegadons as hammers AND anvils, you very easily get outnumbered, receive impact hits and lose your ranks (if they come for the flank).

I think for the rules written for the current stegadon it should have been on a double chariot base to allow enough models to com into base contact to at least come close to killing it from the front.

Stubborn
Immune to Psych
Unit Str. 10
D6+1 impact hits
Terror
5 skinks w/ 2+ AS and poison
Bolt Thrower w/ poison
4+ AS scaly skin
large target (is actually a good think when you consider they can see over their own troops and fire bolt thrower from behind their own troops, unlike ours).
can be taken as hero mount without taking up extra rare/hero slot
improved A/S and STR? for ancients along with devastating machine gun blowpipes
EotG is worthy of a whole other post in itself, those rules are almost laughable
All this on a chariot base is too much

anyone who says they "aren't that good" hasn't played against a competent player with 4+ of them in an army, by themselves they are just a tough monster to kill, in groups you don't even really have a chance.

Musashi · #62 Post by **Musashi** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:44 am

Brute force doesn't seem to cut it; trying to get a flank attack against these beasties seems to be an attractive proposition.

Si'anelle of Avelorn · Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:24 am

From a plain strategy point of view, if somebody put a spear in your hand and told you personally to go and attempt to kill that great big monster over there would you make your attack at the monster's front? I don't think so.
Mr Flank attack is your friend in such situations.

PapaElf · #64 Post by **PapaElf** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:02 pm

Ok, let’s take a closer look at this list, 2000 points, 6 Stegadons, i.e. four special choices (235 points each), and two monstrous mounts for Skink Priests, with Engine of the Gods (355 points each). This is the first 1650 points of the army. Upgrading the priests to 2nd level mages is 70 more points (gives each priest 3 power dice and two dispel dice), add 100 points for the priest’s magic items leaving 180 points for the core requirement. Two units of Skinks (ranked Infantry) and a unit of Skink skirmishers is 170 points leaving 10 points for something.
This army is not unbeatable:

Every unit in the army has leadership of six.
Every unit can be march blocked.
Only the Skirmishers have 360 degree line of sight.
The ballistic skill of the "Giant Bow" crews is three.
The Weapon skill of the Stegadons are three, Skinks are two.
The "Giant Bow" has a 90 degree firing arc.
The Engine of the God’s spells all have a twelve inch range.

I purpose that you play a fast, hard hitting, fearless army with magic resistance and a mage hunting strategy.

Prince on Star Dragon, Armor of Caledor, Star Lance, Sacred Incense - 615 points.
- The twenty inch fly move should keep the prince out of the Stegadon’s charge arc. The lance gives this unit 10 strength 7 attacks on the charge, 3 of which negate armor saves. It hits and wounds an Ancient Stegadon on 3+, Normal Stegadon on 2+ with a -4 armor save adjustment. The flank attack cancels the Stegadon’s unit strength advantage, any "Stegy" fights back hit on 5+ and wound on 3+ and 2+ (Normal, Ancient). Recommend attacking the normal Stegadon, attack the crew if Ancient. In either case the Dragon should win combat causing a break test on cold-blooded 5 or less. The sacred incense cancels the dragon as a large target, causing the "giant bow" to hit on 4+ normal, 5+ at long range or after moving, and remember it’s only single shot.
Noble on Barded Steed, BSB, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon Armor, Lance, Shield – 198 points.
Dragon Princes x5, Drakemaster, Standard bearer, Lion Banner – 215 points
- This unit is immune to Magic, Fear and Terror and brings 3 strength 6 and 11 strength 5 attacks on the charge all hitting on 3+. Attack the crew, allocating the three three strength 6’s on the Priest, and then at least four strength 5’s for any wounds left (kill the Priest). The “Stegy” fights back hit on 4+, wounds on 2+ with a -3 armor save adjustment. However, if one should kill the crew, the "Stegy" must pass a leadership check to keep fighting, followed by a 1 in3 chance of going "stupid", 1 in 3 chance of "guarding the bodies" and becoming "unbreakable", or 1 in 3 chance of being "frenzied" and fighting on.
Noble on Barded Steed, Temakador’s Guantlets, Dragon Armor, Lance, Shield – 143 points.
Dragon Princes x 5, Drakemaster, Amulet of Fire, Standard Bearer, Banner of Balance – 255 points
- This unit is much like the first Dragon Prince unit with the exceptions of having one less combat resolution point(only one banner) and magic resistance (1) as opposed to immune from magic. Also it can not flee, due to the banner of balance. It “Teams” as the hammer to the first Dragon Princes’ anvil.
The “firebase:
- Repeating Bolt Thrower – 100 points.
  Lothern SeaGuard x 10, Shields – 130 points
  Repeating Bolt Thrower – 100 points.
  Lothern SeaGuard x 10, Shields – 130 points
  Repeating Bolt Thrower – 100 points.
- Since all the targets are large the Seaguard can shoot all models from any formation. Shoot massive volleies at one Stegadon at a time, 18 strength 4 bolt thrower shots and 20 strength 3 bow shots. Randomize and hope to kill crew members. When the skinks approach charge range, charge the skinks with the Seaguard.

babalubeaga · #65 Post by **babalubeaga** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:01 am

Thanks for the nice ideas PapaElf. I am probably going to try a similar list tomorrow against him, containing two deathstar Dragon Prince units bannered up with nobles in an attempt to break the stegadon/crew on the charge and run down, or in the least not be out-numbered and auto break after a few wounds.
I never considered LSG, but they may be a viable option targeting stegadons in 2 ranks.

He probably wont be bringing all 6 stegadons for fear of physical harm...I'll have to check into sacred incense.

babalubeaga · #66 Post by **babalubeaga** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:15 pm

OK, we just got done trying this for a 3rd time. I took a Dragon Prince deathstar army (2 RBTs and big unit of PG) against his 2 engine / 2 stegadon list. It was even a toned down version than before.

We didn't even make it out of turn 1 before I decided this wasn't going to be any fun either. The AOE bomb from the engines hit my dragon princes and killed 12 of them. D6 strength 4 with no armor saves on my T3 DPs means for each 3+ he rolls is a 30 pt kill for him. Nothing you can do about it other than stay away from them, at least 2D6'' away.
The main problem with this is when you load up 1 side with 2 regulars and 2 engines, it makes for a pretty dull game to avoid half his army. The engines basically become kamakazis and go after your hardest most expensive units. Eventually they will chase you around and get close enough to get the bomb through.

I have re-evaluated my idea about lizardmen, the regular stegadons aren't that bad, ancients w/ blowpipes are nasty but close range only. Its the engines that are the cheesiest thing in the game today.

From this point forward I will probably be refusing to play anyone with more than 1 engine in a 2000pt game. An undispelable, unstoppable str 4 no A/S attack that doesn't have to roll to hit and can even affect units in close combat. God forbid you play demons or undead and it goes to str 5. The devastation that 4 of those could cause in a 2k game would make you want to quit the game.

Musashi · #67 Post by **Musashi** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:26 pm

Looks like you're forced to kill them at a distance.

HERO · #68 Post by **HERO** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:01 pm

Hello Brothers!

I have returned from my Fantasy vacation (I've been playing a lot of 40K) to fight the brand new spanking Mortals of Chaos and Lizardman books.

I read through this entire thread and noticed that my friend is going to take a very similar list (6 stegs, one of them is EotG, some killy Lord on a Carnasaur and 30x Skinks in a 2250 list). I will be matching them with my High Elves and seeing what happens.

I'm either going to take my SD list or my Teclis list. Here are both:

2245
Teclis

LORD:
Teclis = 475
Caradryan = 175
Lv.2 Mage (Jewel of Dusk, Scroll) = 170

CORE:
10x Archers = 110
10x Archers = 110

SPECIAL:
20x Phoenix Guard (FC, GoC, Banner of Sorcery) = 390
5x Dragon Prince (Banner of Ellyrion) = 185
1x Lion Chariot = 140
1x Lion Chariot = 140

RARE:
3x Repeater Bolt Thrower = 300
1x Great Eagle = 50

Might tweak his list a little to fight his list.. but I HATTTEEE tweaking lists for one specific army. His list can fight any list, why can't I? At most, I'll probably replace Caradryan and a Great Eagle for a mounted BSB with Battle Banner.

2239
Star Dragon

LORD:
Prince (Star Dragon, Star Lance, Sacred Incense) = 615
Noble (BSB, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon Prince) = 198
Mage (2x Dispell Scrolls) = 140

CORE:
10x Archers = 110
10x Archers = 110

SPECIAL:
9x Dragon Princes (FC, HoF, Lion Standard) = 385
2x Lion Chariots = 280

RARE:
4x RBT = 400

I'm trying to fit in a GoC in the 2nd list but I have 10 points to spare hehe. I wonder how I'll do since both of my lists are geared to win and his is obviously trying to do the same thing.

babalubeaga · #69 Post by **babalubeaga** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:11 pm

Musashi wrote:Looks like you're forced to kill them at a distance.

yeah until he activates his 5+ ward save for shooting outside 12'' if no one is close enough to hit with the bomb. T6 with 5+ ward save with 3+ A/S, 5 wounds, no panic.....not impossible but no easy task for a bolt thrower, meanwhile he/they are moving as fast as possible toward the greatest concentration of points you have on the board.

Eärendil · #70 Post by **Eärendil** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:28 pm

Well it doesn't look like GW is doing much to discourage the use of multiple stegs...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... 01&start=2

Happy Scrappy Hero Pup · Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:31 pm

Well he can't activate everything at once. If you have the first turn, that's a free shot with all your RBTs, and quite probably one Ancient down. If he advances, he'll probably use the wardsave, but he's also moving into range of your chargers so no d6 S4 attacks when you charge.

Mind you, I wouldn't be throwing 5-man DP units at stegadons either.

But I think it speaks volumes that you're quitting in turn 1, bro. You've beaten yourself before you've started.

Si'anelle of Avelorn · Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:50 pm

Eärendil wrote:Well it doesn't look like GW is doing much to discourage the use of multiple stegs...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... 01&start=2

It looks like they're pushing Lizards at the moment

Musashi · #73 Post by **Musashi** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:56 pm

When aren't they pushing the flavour of the month? I believe Skaven are next.

HERO · #74 Post by **HERO** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:37 pm

So... Teclis or Star Dragon vs. 6 Stegs?

Happy Scrappy Hero Pup · Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:39 pm

I would avoid Teclis only because he's on foot an fairly stationary. That give the lizzie player a point to move towards. The Dragon provides a moving target.

Musashi · #76 Post by **Musashi** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:40 pm

I think you have to plan in over-runs.

babalubeaga · #77 Post by **babalubeaga** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:02 am

Happy Scrappy Hero Pup wrote:Well he can't activate everything at once. If you have the first turn, that's a free shot with all your RBTs, and quite probably one Ancient down. If he advances, he'll probably use the wardsave, but he's also moving into range of your chargers so no d6 S4 attacks when you charge.

Mind you, I wouldn't be throwing 5-man DP units at stegadons either.

But I think it speaks volumes that you're quitting in turn 1, bro. You've beaten yourself before you've started.

With terrain and all I have never been able to kill an ancient in 1 turn even with 4 bolt throwers, chances are only 2-3 will be able to have los on him, unless you make a hot pocket of them (all eggs in 1 basket). even after rolling a 2+ to hit, you still have to roll 5s then get lucky enough to get high #s for your d3 wounds with the big shot. The volleys have even less chance to do anything, needing 6s to wound and still giving him a 5+ A/S. That would average out to less than 1 wound per RBT if you had 4 and all could target the ancient.

The reason for stopping on turn 1 is that me and my brother do this for fun, and this has turned into somewhat of a test for me to see if I can crack this nut or not. When your (2) 10 man units of DPs get roasted by the bombs going off (1 unit got hit by both) and you wind up losing 12/20 DPs for 360 points, things are not going to get much better in turn 2 when you have to actually fight the stegadon. You had better kill it or the outnumber/auto break comes into play.

If the lizzy player plays them smart the engines can be screened by a normal stegadon from bolt throwers and then used their powers to help protect from missile fire. The normal stegadons are the setups, getting into combat and screening for the EotGs, who come crashing your party with str 4 no a/s d6 hits, then follow up with the charge in to finish you off. They can even do this in combat. T3 elves just can't handle that.

PapaElf · #78 Post by **PapaElf** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:29 am

babalubeaga wrote:OK, we just got done trying this for a 3rd time. I took a Dragon Prince deathstar army (2 RBTs and big unit of PG) against his 2 engine / 2 stegadon list. It was even a toned down version than before.

We didn't even make it out of turn 1 before I decided this wasn't going to be any fun either. The AOE bomb from the engines hit my dragon princes and killed 12 of them. D6 strength 4 with no armor saves on my T3 DPs means for each 3+ he rolls is a 30 pt kill for him. Nothing you can do about it other than stay away from them, at least 2D6'' away.
The main problem with this is when you load up 1 side with 2 regulars and 2 engines, it makes for a pretty dull game to avoid half his army. The engines basically become kamakazis and go after your hardest most expensive units. Eventually they will chase you around and get close enough to get the bomb through........

First Turn

. How is this possible? Did you leave the "Banner of the World Dragon" behind? This totally nullifies the "Engine of the Gods". Where is your Dragon, there is nothing in his army that will survive a flank attack from your prince on the Star Dragon. You will either kill the unit outright or cause it to break, hopfully causing a chain reaction of chariot inpact hits as he runs through his own troops. Are you playing on a regulation sized table, i.e. eight by four feet? His total frontage (6 Stegadons) is only 300 mm (approximately twelve inches). Your melee units march and charge 16 and 20 inches as oppossed to his 12, why is he initiating combat, or getting first shot? Why are the descriptions of your melees all frontal assaults? Are you sure that it's only his army that is beating you.

babalubeaga wrote:With terrain and all I have never been able to kill an ancient in 1 turn even with 4 bolt throwers, chances are only 2-3 will be able to have los on him, unless you make a hot pocket of them (all eggs in 1 basket). even after rolling a 2+ to hit, you still have to roll 5s then get lucky enough to get high #s for your d3 wounds with the big shot. The volleys have even less chance to do anything, needing 6s to wound and still giving him a 5+ A/S. That would average out to less than 1 wound per RBT if you had 4 and all could target the ancient.

The reason for stopping on turn 1 is that me and my brother do this for fun, and this has turned into somewhat of a test for me to see if I can crack this nut or not. When your (2) 10 man units of DPs get roasted by the bombs going off (1 unit got hit by both) and you wind up losing 12/20 DPs for 360 points, things are not going to get much better in turn 2 when you have to actually fight the stegadon. You had better kill it or the outnumber/auto break comes into play.

If the lizzy player plays them smart the engines can be screened by a normal stegadon from bolt throwers and then used their powers to help protect from missile fire. The normal stegadons are the setups, getting into combat and screening for the EotGs, who come crashing your party with str 4 no a/s d6 hits, then follow up with the charge in to finish you off. They can even do this in combat. T3 elves just can't handle that.

The second quote is from your later post. It answers several of my questions. You obviously did not see the value of the "Lion Banner", "Banner of Balance",
"Banner of the World Dragon", "the Star Dragon", concentrated missile fire to kill the crews nor the manuverability advantage of my list as a whole.

If you insist on a toe to toe fight against the lizardmen or for that matter, any other army in the Warhammer World, I really don't like your chances of overall success.

dabber · #79 Post by **dabber** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:46 am

PapaElf wrote:Did you leave the "Banner of the World Dragon" behind? This totally nullifies the "Engine of the Gods".

Banner of the World Dragon has no affect on the Engine of the Gods. The Engine isn't a spell.

babalubeaga · #80 Post by **babalubeaga** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:59 am

I didn't realize that World Dragon made the unit immune to EotG effects, I figured that if they were magic they could be dispelled and thus it wouldn't apply, but if it does then that makes a big difference.
As far as the Star Dragon, StarLance + VoD would give him a pretty good chance of surviving against poison and even bolt throwers. I've used him before it's just a shame that he is so vital for HE success.

I guess I just believed that with ASF and some of the offensive power of some of our units HE could just roll through anything. Obviously that is not true. My brother used to play chaos mortals and these games were all turning out the opposite way, but against them you don't have to worry about shooting, or fliers, and really no large mulit-wound units outside heroes/mounts and dragon ogres.

I haven't really watched many games of WHFB outside of the ones I have played myself, so I am still very much learning in the area of tactics. I do appreciate all the helpful comments and suggestions. I probably need to spend a few turns positioning, and thinning down his units rather than trying to crash and burn in the first turn possible. 1 good combat of my choosing could lead to a Star Dragon and possibly a unit of Dragon Princes getting multiple overruns.

If anyone else winds up playing a similar list and has success I would love to hear what you used.

babalubeaga · #81 Post by **babalubeaga** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:19 am

The second quote is from your later post. It answers several of my questions. You obviously did not see the value of the "Lion Banner", "Banner of Balance",
"Banner of the World Dragon", "the Star Dragon", concentrated missile fire to kill the crews nor the manuverability advantage of my list as a whole.

If you insist on a toe to toe fight against the lizardmen or for that matter, any other army in the Warhammer World, I really don't like your chances of overall success.[/quote]

The crews have a 2+ A/S and I believe all shooting is randomized 1-4 againt steggy and 5-6 for crew. I would take a long time to whittle down the crew with their 4+ A/S from the volley and possible the 5+ ward from the engine. As far as shooting the big bolt and hitting the crew, I'm not sure how many ranks (if any) you could justify penetrating if you were able to hit them instead of the beast.
Just a ? and no malice intended PapaElf, but have you yet played against this type of list or witnessed a game with 4+ Stegadons and/or multiple EotGs?

PapaElf · #82 Post by **PapaElf** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:42 am

dabber wrote:
PapaElf wrote:Did you leave the "Banner of the World Dragon" behind? This totally nullifies the "Engine of the Gods".
Banner of the World Dragon has no affect on the Engine of the Gods. The Engine isn't a spell.

Where is this written?? The item is played in the magic phase, in addition to normal spells. Note, the first line of the "Banner of the World Dragon"

"The unit is immune to all spell effects, whatever their source...."

Now the wording for "Engine of the Gods" is to create one of three effects. I suppose that, your position is that the absence of the word magic, means the the effects are not magic. Is this your opinion or is it written somewhere that the "Engine" is not magic.

Foxbat · #83 Post by **Foxbat** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:52 pm

I agree that the multi-steg list will be tough. However, I think there will be options for magic (i.e. Teclis or Archmage) lead lists.

In my recent game against a dual Ancient list, I think my Lore selections could have been better (Archmage: Fire; Mages: High & Heavens). Looking back on it, I think next time I would look to use Lore of Heavens on my two 2nd level mages (assuming the same set-up) and possibly High on the Archmage. Having up to two RBTs under the effects of Portent of Far should prove to be really advantageous, especially when combined with the effects of 2nd Sign of Amul.

The other benefit of these Lore selections is that the Lizzie player will hopefully be forced, early in the game, to think long and hard about how to address my Archmage’s damage spells (i.e. Flames of the Phoenix and/or Fury of Khaine). If things go well, my opponent may have to burn his/her scrolls earlier than usual.

babalubeaga wrote: With terrain and all I have never been able to kill an ancient in 1 turn even with 4 bolt throwers, chances are only 2-3 will be able to have los on him, unless you make a hot pocket of them (all eggs in 1 basket). even after rolling a 2+ to hit, you still have to roll 5s then get lucky enough to get high #s for your d3 wounds with the big shot. The volleys have even less chance to do anything, needing 6s to wound and still giving him a 5+ A/S. That would average out to less than 1 wound per RBT if you had 4 and all could target the ancient.

babalubeaga brings up a good point. How many RBTs should one consider bringing? I too found that with 4 RBTs, only 2 or 3 were in a position to fire. Further, it seemed that the same RBT tended to be one without a shot. Assuming you have magic support similar to noted earlier, I think I would be comfortable with 3 instead of 4, but definitely, not less than 2 RBTs.

As for what to do with the liberated points, I would suggest adding more Archers as they can be used to address the inevitable Skink units.

chaosmaddie · #84 Post by **chaosmaddie** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:18 pm

page 55 of the lizardman book, near the bottom in the section for the Engine of the Gods, 2nd paragraph

direct quote:

"If the Skink Priest is alive, he may use the power of the Engine (in addition to casting any spells). Note that none of these effects may be dispelled, such as by dispel scrolls etc. ..."

until a FAQ is out, it seems to be read as unstoppable. Null stones, Rings of Hotek....not sure how you would play those against it, but the way its written I don't see where you can "negate" or "dispel" it in any fashion.

Musashi · #85 Post by **Musashi** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:27 pm

Dispel is not negate, if the unit is immune, the spell is still successful.

PapaElf · #86 Post by **PapaElf** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:23 pm

chaosmaddie wrote:"If the Skink Priest is alive, he may use the power of the Engine (in addition to casting any spells). Note that none of these effects may be dispelled, such as by dispel scrolls etc. ..."

until a FAQ is out, it seems to be read as unstoppable. Null stones, Rings of Hotek....not sure how you would play those against it, but the way its written I don't see where you can "negate" or "dispel" it in any fashion.

The arguement is not that the "Banner of the World Dragon" stops or dispels the engine. It is that, the effects of the engine do not effect the unit carrying the banner. i.e.

The unit is completely immune to all spell effects, whatever their source......

dabber · #87 Post by **dabber** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:25 pm

PapaElf wrote:
dabber wrote:Banner of the World Dragon has no affect on the Engine of the Gods. The Engine isn't a spell.
Where is this written?? The item is played in the magic phase, in addition to normal spells. Note, the first line of the "Banner of the World Dragon"
"The unit is immune to all spell effects, whatever their source...."

Why does going off in the magic phase matter? There is nothing to indicate the Engine produces magical hits. It isn't cast like a spell. I don't see how it is a "spell" or "spell effect".
The Engine is like the Anvil of Doom. That it goes off in the magic phase instead of the shooting phase doesn't mean a whole lot.

Musashi · #88 Post by **Musashi** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:33 pm

I'll try and get hold of a LMAB7 copy; in the meantime, the tabletop awaits ...

PapaElf · #89 Post by **PapaElf** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:42 pm

dabber wrote:Why does going off in the magic phase matter? There is nothing to indicate the Engine produces magical hits. It isn't cast like a spell. I don't see how it is a "spell" or "spell effect".......

Again, this is your opinion. My opinion is based on the following phraseology of the Engine of the Gods

"If the Skink Priest is alive, he may use the power of the Engine (in addition to casting any spells). Note that none of these effects may be dispelled, such as by dispel scrolls etc. ..."

To my mind, this looks like somebody (who wrote the book) thinks that these effects might be magical, in that he went out of his way to explain that normal dispel tactics do not work.

Suffice to say that, "Your opinion and my opinion differ"

babalubeaga · #90 Post by **babalubeaga** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:43 pm

I can see where both sides have point. While I would like to believe that Banner of World Dragon would make a unit immune to these effects, it doesn't ever say in the EotG rules that they are in fact magic. Since they have no power level or roll to cast, it seems that they are just innate abilities of the engine itself, much like killing blow, scout etc.

I am just not sure why GW decided to move the stegadons to special in the first place. They did it for $$ surely, but it wasn't like Lizardmen were hurting for powerful special choices, and provided good balance for players to pick between the Stegadon and Salamanders in the rare slot 6th edition.

Its just my opinion but I don't believe any army can take enough firepower, be it magic, shooting or cc to take down more than 4 of these in 2k games.
Maybe at 3-4k with 2 Stardragons, and Teclis with about 4 level 2s could you come close, but then you could be dealing with 10-12 stegadons, or more