Beastmen Leaks

[Axiem]

From the same source that provided the specific details for HE/Empire/OnG, and also predicted Wood Elves and Beastmen as next:

-Banner of the Warped Moon: make a Ld check, if successful enemy fliers cannot fly until the beginning of your next start of turn phase. Does that sound similar to a doot?

-Chalice of dark rain: one use, during the command phase make a Ld check on own Ld. If passed, enemy BS projectiles have range halved and war machines cannot shoot.

-Horn of the great hunt: once per turn, you may add/subtract 1 from an ambush roll

-On minotaur shamans: there is no specific entry for them in the book. The minotaur AoI must be led by a Doombull or Gorebull. This general may be upgraded to a level 1 or 2 caster.

-Most units in the minotaur AoI gain Impetuous. If your general procs Bloodrage, then every unit in its command range gains Frenzy.

-The minotaur AoI includes the option for a Gorebull BSB.

-They can have bray shamans, but not great bray shamans.

-New units: Herdstone, Preyton, Primal Warhounds, warped gors, Primal Warherds, Ungor ravagers.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Axiem]

If there are 2x Falcon Horns in the game, get ready to seriously rethink your flying options! Chalice of the Dark Rain seems like it could be pretty harmful, depending on how long it lasts and if it can be reused.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Griffon Prince]

Depending how popular Beastmen will get, maybe we'll see an increased usage of Banner of Balance? Loremaster's Cloak on DP's to protect from Hagtree Fetish with Viletide?

[Jedra]

If there are 2x Falcon Horns in the game, get ready to seriously rethink your flying options! Chalice of the Dark Rain seems like it could be pretty harmful, depending on how long it lasts and if it can be reused.

Kind regards,

Axiem

Well that kills the only sliver of a reason to take a seaguard garrison

I may be starting to feel like we got the short straw

[Corvalent]

Depending how popular Beastmen will get, maybe we'll see an increased usage of Banner of Balance? Loremaster's Cloak on DP's to protect from Hagtree Fetish with Viletide?

Banner is only for stopping rerolls from the opposing unit in base contact. It does protect against beastmen's reroll 1s to hit from primal fury!

[Prince of Spires]

I may be starting to feel like we got the short straw

Hey now, that's not completely fair. After all, we go the Banner of Lothern... /s

I (still) think the Falcon Horn is a dumb item and should have been 1 use only or at least harder to get it to work. It's a bit sad to see GW double down on the idea. Though of course, we don't know the price and if it's available to the GA army as well or if it's a list specific item. After all, they could have included the falcon horn as a Sea Guard Garrison item, and the list would still have been bad and you still wouldn't see the item because of that, even if it was free. Also, at least it's not on a LD9 model, but more likely LD7 or 8 at most. Which, though it succeeds more than fails, can still go wrong.

And I agree, if you know there might be beastmen or bretonians, then there is zero reason to take the SGG. They are a hard counter to anything that list can bring.

Chalice of dark rain I would assume lasts until your next start of turn. Which makes it annoying and very strong against armies that rely on shooting (poor dwarves), but not the end of the world perhaps (again, unless you're dwarves probably).

The rest doesn't look too big a deal. I'm a bit sad our Loremasters can't be turned into a lvl2. On the other hand, playing a completely Impetuous army sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It should be fun, but is perhaps not the most competitive option...

[Axiem]

Army Rule for AJ Beastmen

Whenever you attempt to cast or dispel a spell, you receive a +1 to your roll for every wizard in your command range, plus bonuses from herdstone if you take it. However, any double is a miscast/outclassed in the art

This has major potential. Chaotic, but powerful.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Prince of Spires]

Army Rule for AJ Beastmen

Whenever you attempt to cast or dispel a spell, you receive a +1 to your roll for every wizard in your command range, plus bonuses from herdstone if you take it. However, any double is a miscast/outclassed in the art

This has major potential. Chaotic, but powerful.

Depends a little bit on if they can take a lvl4 or not. If like the SGG list they're limited to a lvl3 (or lvl2 even), then it's more something to compensate and add a chaotic feel to it. It they can bring a lvl4 and use that, then that could make for a very powerful magic phase. And miscasts aren't that bad this edition.

[Axiem]

Depends a little bit on if they can take a lvl4 or not. If like the SGG list they're limited to a lvl3 (or lvl2 even), then it's more something to compensate and add a chaotic feel to it. It they can bring a lvl4 and use that, then that could make for a very powerful magic phase. And miscasts aren't that bad this edition.

I think the real cap we need to hope for is some 0-X on the level 1s. They’re 65 points IIRC, so you could take 8-10, completely shut out an opponent with +8-10 to cast/dispel and not really care about miscasts since the models are cheap.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Serathail]

Even if its capped at +3 like the mortuary cult version is, some three groups of 4 Lv1s each spread across the table with 12 total Viletides at +4 to cast at ~800 points would put a sister deathstar to shame. Having a decent magic missile as a signature along with a rule like this would be a nasty thing.

[Prince of Spires]

Good points. With how hard it is in TOW to get casting bonusses, even getting a +2 to cast / dispell for a lvl4 mage is already a great bonus to get. If it's maximised at just +1, then it's still nice.

We'll see. In the end, the rule may be included in a SGG type list and we'll never see it again because it's a bad list that no one wants to play. I'm sure someone will have thought of the implications... (I hope).

[Axiem]

There is a chance that tommorow the Besstmen book will be previewed via Youtube.
Rumours suggest that the new lore has two vortexes in it, one that gives -1 ld within 6 inches (probably signature) and one that gives -1 bs and some leadership test. Also echantment that gives fight in extra ranks and conveance that gives reserve move.

These spell descriptions were confirmed as ‘mostly correct’ from the same source.

New Beastmen lore:

**signature) Primordial gloom:**
vortex, 3" template, cast 9 range 12". (Enemy?) Units within 6" suffer a -1 to Ld.

**1) call of the wild:**
conveyance, CN 8, range 12"
Target infantry or cavalry unit gainst the Reserve move special rule until end of turn

**2) wild wood:**
hex, CN 10, range 15"
Target unit fears all models in the casters army, units with Fear cause Terror instead, dispels other hexes, remains in play

**3) flock of doom**
assailment, CN 8
small blast, scatter d3+1, models hit suffer s3 ap- mw(2)

**4) Fury of the beast**
enchantment, CN 9, range self
The caster and his unit gain the Fight in extra rank special rule.

**5) Strangleroot**
magic missile, CN 9, range 4d6"
Draw a line: any model hit suffers d3 s3 ap2 hits.

**6) The wodespan:**
vortex, CN 10, range 15"
Large blast template, doesn't move, blocks LoS. Enemy units within 6" of the template suffer -1BS. Enemy units who end their move within 3" must test Ld. If this check is failed then they must flee (no FBIGO).

…and subsequently confirmed by the primary source.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Corvalent]

The wodespan looks super strong. Can effect units 27.5" away from casters starting position (move 5", 15" cast range, big blast for 1.5" radius. 6" effect range). It's also a long range large blast LOS blocking vortex. Column of crystal has a cast range of 9" which this has a cast range of 15"

[Jedra]

Wodespan is an upgraded phantasmagoria with a slightly weaker Column of Crystal in a single cast...

[Axiem]

herdstone

- 100 points
- may be deployed anywhere, except in the enemy DZ or within 6" of the centre.
- can be controlled by a non fleeing unit of 5 US or more within 6", if two controlling units are within 6" it's contested (no control).
- A unit controlling it gains MR1
- if it is controlled by beastmen, that unit can re roll 1's to wound.
- Bray shamans within 6" of a herdstone controlled by friendlies, can add +1 to his casting rolls.
- Enemy wizards within 12" suffer a -1 penalty to cast.
- between 3 and 6 inches wide
- while within 12" of a herdstone, enemies suffer a -1 ld to fear, panic, and terror tests.
- if either player controls the herdstone at end of the battle, that player is awarded 200 VPs
- can be taken in grand army as a special choice, minotaurs as core, primal herds as special

Kind regards,

Axiem

[VictorK]

Also, at least it's not on a LD9 model, but more likely LD7 or 8 at most. Which, though it succeeds more than fails, can still go wrong.

Do we know if that's the case? I saw the leak for the other banner said test on the model's own leadership, but warband means that a wargor could easily have leadership 10 if this banner isn't the same.

Beastmen are the primary army I play against and what grinds my gears about them is that they seem to have a special rule that negates or covers every weakness the army has. Warband gives them very high leadership, Viletide and hagtree fetish is one of the best spells in the game and my dispel roll against it usually determines the outcome of the game, they have all kinds of rules to make them hit harder than they already do, their points value seems to be determined on their base stats and the idea that they're a "horde" army rather than how they actually play when all their special rules are factored in, and it now seems they're going to get all kinds of cover against shooting. Had the pleasure of playing a list tonight that had a Doombull with slugskin and the bedazzling helm so my Prince and Star Dragon were hitting on 5s. I didn't even get a wound on him (got two hits and rolled two ones, so it goes) before warhall mercifully crashed and I was spared the indignity.

Not sure what to do with Beastmen. It always feels like I'm 500 points behind when facing off against them and I lose the game if I lose the Viletide dispel roll on my dragon princes or my prince. Ah, well. Such is the HE life.

[Corvalent]

Usually a prince on star dragon does well into the doombull anyways since stomps ignore rolling to hit. Unless it's a wargor in the unit taking slugskin (in which case the unit is simply likely too expensive to engage like that) the doombull will only have a 3+/5++ if using a hand weapon (heavy armour, shield, bedazzling helm, talisman of protection, slugskin). If there is a wargor with slugskin then he can take armoured hide to get a 2+/5++, in which case you need something else fighting the unit to try to kill the wargor.

[Griffon Prince]

I lose the game if I lose the Viletide dispel roll on my dragon princes or my prince. Ah, well. Such is the HE life.

Have you tried Loremaster's Cloak on the DP's?

- if either player controls the herdstone at end of the battle, that player is awarded 200 VPs

So we have to deal with controlling this thing in addition to everything else going on in the rest of the battle? Yikes

[Jedra]

Not sure what to do with Beastmen. It always feels like I'm 500 points behind when facing off against them and I lose the game if I lose the Viletide dispel roll on my dragon princes or my prince. Ah, well. Such is the HE life.

I also struggle with them. Best I've pulled off was a draw that would have been a narrow win if he'd failed his turn 6 rally rolls. I find the massed chariots screened by ungor swarms the most annoying- can't kill them at range, can't charge them... can't win if you get charged

[Ielthan]

They've always been a difficult army for us with their number, chariots and ambushers, they do seem strong in this edition too apart from that they don't have a dragon. I think cloak of beards is a really strong item against them though leadership is a big weakness for them.

[Prince of Spires]

Also, at least it's not on a LD9 model, but more likely LD7 or 8 at most. Which, though it succeeds more than fails, can still go wrong.

Do we know if that's the case? I saw the leak for the other banner said test on the model's own leadership, but warband means that a wargor could easily have leadership 10 if this banner isn't the same.

Good point. I had missed the Warband rule. Which does change the dynamic.

[Axiem]

Pretyon & some other rules:

Could be something like the old endless malice (after winning combat, forces panic check to everyone within 10" if it doesn't pursue)

and we have a winner (but it's 6"). Now, before people start saying "well, that's shit", you gotta realize three things:
1) The preyton hits hard enough and is fast enough that it should win almost every combat it chooses, at least on the initial engagement.
2) Beastmen are getting plenty of leadership debuffs now. This means that if you can force several panic checks at -2/-3 Ld, you're already above 50% chance of those doing something.
3) It's very much a combo piece. If you are engaging the backline, and you manage to ambush (or fly) a unit behind the enemy, you can make it pop through you to force peril tests, and even possibly that the enemy leaves the battlefield just by popping through you even though it only FBIGO's

the reason why backlines will hate it is that it can move very fast, win a combat, and then force several checks, as gunlines tend to be pretty packed together. A mass rout for a gunline, even if it makes them lose one turn of shooting, is usually a lost game

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Prince of Spires]

Just from a let's have fun and play the game point of view I don't really like the sound of "this one thing can make some armies basically lose the game in a single turn." It's probably a slight exaggeration and one of those where you need to get a lot of things to go your way, but still. Doens't sound fun.

[VictorK]

Have you tried Loremaster's Cloak on the DP's?

Actually just played a game using the Loremaster cloak on my Drakemaster to protect the DP unit. I mean, it's better than having a 6+, but I still lost four dragon princes to a viletide and hagtree fetish combo. This was also a game where I failed an opal amulet roll on a monster-killing blow and lost a full health prince on dragon, so things weren't going my way. But given that DP units don't tend to be very large, I'm not sure a 4+ really helps them. Losing 4/5 or even 3/5 DPs still takes out the unit.

Just from a let's have fun and play the game point of view I don't really like the sound of "this one thing can make some armies basically lose the game in a single turn." It's probably a slight exaggeration and one of those where you need to get a lot of things to go your way, but still. Doens't sound fun.

This kind of seems to be the Beastman MO? My game is over if I fail a viletide dispel roll. As I said before, it seems like they have a rule to counter every weakness in the army, and a rule that makes good units better. A goddamn Doombull who gets to roll on the Gaze of the Gods table has leadership 10 from warband, which means everything in his command range has leadership 10. Which means Beastmen generally have a higher leadership than HE. And he has a banner that makes his unit harder to shoot, and can take chaos gifts that make him harder to hit in combat. Oh and if you do get in combat they get to roll a leadership test (on leadership 10) to re-roll ones to hit, and if they roll double they're frenzied. They can hide their great brayshaman in a unit of Ungor chariot runners so it can see out but I can't see in to, say, target the bastard with Vaul's Unmaking and try to mitigate the Hagtree Fetish. I've taken to calling it "Chaos Bullshit" which anyone from the old days will remember: Chaos gets the goodies, Elves get...I dunno, elven reflexes is nice I guess. We got that ugly wyrm model in our arcane journal I suppose.

[Jedra]

I've taken to calling it "Chaos Bullshit" which anyone from the old days will remember: Chaos gets the goodies, Elves get...I dunno, elven reflexes is nice I guess. We got that ugly wyrm model in our arcane journal I suppose.

I don't disagree with this sentiment... even if it wasn't OP the variety of interesting rules and units is just far and above what we see. But a couple points:

1) if your game is dependent on a dispell roll, bring Sigils of Asuryan- they're expensive but well worth it. Trickster's is not a bad shout either.

2)Hex, Enchantment and Conveyance spells do not require Line of Sight - Vaul's is still hard to pull off because of short range, but chariot runners can't block it

In general I've stopped taking minimum unit size cavalry for exactly this reason: a couple wounds and they're suddenly next to useless. 8+ DPs is expensive but there's no point spending non core points on a unit that's useless after one unlucky shooting round.

[Griffon Prince]

In general I've stopped taking minimum unit size cavalry for exactly this reason: a couple wounds and they're suddenly next to useless. 8+ DPs is expensive but there's no point spending non core points on a unit that's useless after one unlucky shooting round.

I've found the same. 10 DP's are in nearly all my lists and I wouldn't take less than 8 and that's with character support for more defensive items. Pricey but it far more survivable than just taking 5 like I used to.

[Serathail]

Same here, I tend to default to 7+ so the occasional unlucky 1 and magic missile bs doesn't just take the unit out of the game. 8 is arguably ideal pointswise, now the unit strength is maximal while not giving up points until reduced to 1 model.

[Corvalent]

2)Hex, Enchantment and Conveyance spells do not require Line of Sight - Vaul's is still hard to pull off because of short range, but chariot runners can't block it
[/quote]

Unlike most hexes, vaul's unmaking specifies it needs line of sight to the target so chariot runners lined up perfectly would be good protection against vaul's unless your mage is a large target or on a hill

[Jedra]

Unlike most hexes, vaul's unmaking specifies it needs line of sight to the target so chariot runners lined up perfectly would be good protection against vaul's unless your mage is a large target or on a hill

Huh. Thanks for pointing it out... that makes casting in to combat next to useless if you need LoS to the model. Even harder to use this spell!

[Axiem]

From discord, same source:

I'm hearing from several sources that Beastmen have been delayed, and now WE are taking the spot we expected BM in. I've heard it described as "switched", but also as "Beastmen didn't come out when they were supposed to, now WE are coming out as planned. WE preorder announcement/preview should land this Sunday, with preorder the following week. As for Beastmen, I don't have a solid date. If and when I hear it, I will let you all know

Kind regards,

Axiem