Ring of Fury

[Axiem]

One of the biggest improvements from the AJ I believe is going to be Ring of Fury. Not only does it help provide something thematic to the army that has been missing, the ability to take multiples of it creates a real shift in where enemy Wizards need to position in order to counter spells.

This is not a small thing.

At the same time, looking at some of the numbers:

- On average, it more than doubles the number of hits Silver Helms inflict;

- It approximately doubles the damage inflicted, on average;

- Max Rolls, it approaches tripling the damage inflicted;

Someone can check my math. Assumes hitting on 4s, and differentiates between S4 and S5 hits, both at -2: doesn't account for Armourbane (1) on Lances, so slightly higher in reality:

AVERAGES


MAX


Kind regards,

Axiem

[bkevs84]

I kinda feel like putting it everywhere all at once. A very useful unit though unfortunate we have to pay to add it to units to make them punch up. But at least we have another tool in the tool box.

Thanks for the math

[Velmates]

Nice thing is, on Silverhelms points come from core allotment.

[Turion Rilyaloce]

Just had my first game with it and this really helped to mitigate a rubber lance turn from Dragon Princes.

It’s very good value, and I’ll mostly play on a flank so I don’t think the enemy wizard will commit to dispelling way out in the weeds

[Axiem]

Nice thing is, on Silverhelms points come from core allotment.

This is the way.

For the cost of +1 more Helm, you're doubling (or greater) the effect of the unit if it reaches there at full Strength. If it's at lower Strength, the effects are even better than it would otherwise be.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Velmates]

To be honest, I wasn't aware that the damage output is increased that much. Thank you for your calculations.

In addition, the Ring mitigates greatly the rubber-lance-syndrome and somewhat the fear of being charged if you happen to find yourself out of position which makes it even more valuable.

I have yet to try but this small item makes the mediocre core choice of Silverhelms so much more valuable. I guess I will run a small bus with cav-prince sporting the Star Lance, Armor of Caledor, and Seed of Rebirth (alternatively Ogre Blade and AoC) for a nice additional shock unit.

[Ielthan]

I think it's a great item and very thematic, but it's perhaps a bit of a trap to put it everywhere. It's very easy for the enemy lvl 4 to shut it down. Given lvl 4s tend to be deployed towards the middle of the board so they can be most effective defensively, I think it's perhaps best used on units you expect to use on your flanks; so silver helms are indeed ideal. I think dragon princes would benefit too, though they're already so expensive and brittle. What I'm very interested to see is if people can use this item to make MSU lists work again as that would really shake up the meta. Where I am the meta is still very much dragons and gunlines/bowlines, with some goblin shenanigans thrown in.

[Lorthermar]

Even swordmasters with their very high initiative could benefit from ROF for that added bit of output. But yes they may be in dispel range when using it, and probably something like Loremasters cloak is the better option. Silver Helms seems like solid choice. Best item in the AJ in my opinion

[Ielthan]

Even swordmasters with their very high initiative could benefit from ROF for that added bit of output. But yes they may be in dispel range when using it, and probably something like Loremasters cloak is the better option. Silver Helms seems like solid choice. Best item in the AJ in my opinion

Agreed. I'm quite interested to see if there are some unusual uses, like maybe shadow warriors with one. 5 with champ upgrade and ring is 101pts, not too cheap, but not ridiculous and maybe can finally give them the combat prowess they need to be useful. Let's them hunt war machines, get into wizards etc.

7 swordmasters with drilled, champ and ring are also 136pts, 3 units of those is not a huge investment, hits hard, can deploy just 2 wide and can still free redress into 7 wide and march 15".

Another interesting one is scouting reavers, as a flanking unit, 5 with scouts, skirmishers (not sure if they need it tbh), champ and ring is 128pts. With their speed and scout they can genuinely be a nuisance. I wouldn't even bother with bows as they should be moving max speed at all times.

Really wish spearmen champs could take them, it's exactly what they need.

I just wish the game size was a bit bigger, 2.25-2.5k, 2k just feels so restrictive when we essentially are forced to max out characters.

[Jedra]

The dispel chance isn't that bad, especially if you consider you might take 3-4 of them. This is your cumulative chance of successfully casting at least one hammerhand, including dispell at each level

#___1___2___ 3___4
nat 70% 91% 97% 99%
lvl1 63% 86% 95% 98%
lvl2 54% 79% 90% 96%
lvl3 44% 69% 82% 90%
lvl4 34% 56% 71% 81%


So even with a level 4, 80pts for 3 rings is getting off pretty reliably - more reliably than a Boltthrower at range for the same points.

Also note that at its worst of 1 ring and a level 4 wizard, that 34% chance of casting is equivalent of a 5+ to hit - this isn't great but also isn't terrible.

I'd say it's only worth it on champions you expect to be making charges, so I wouldn't give it to eg a seaguard champion (seaguard champs are actually just dragon sacrifices:D) but it's hard to argue with the value for any other champion that expects to fight.

Side note: GW need to employ more mathematicians

[Ielthan]

The dispel chance isn't that bad, especially if you consider you might take 3-4 of them. This is your cumulative chance of successfully casting at least one hammerhand, including dispell at each level

#___1___2___ 3___4
nat 70% 91% 97% 99%
lvl1 63% 86% 95% 98%
lvl2 54% 79% 90% 96%
lvl3 44% 69% 82% 90%
lvl4 34% 56% 71% 81%


So even with a level 4, 80pts for 3 rings is getting off pretty reliably - more reliably than a Boltthrower at range for the same points.

Also note that at its worst of 1 ring and a level 4 wizard, that 34% chance of casting is equivalent of a 5+ to hit - this isn't great but also isn't terrible.

I'd say it's only worth it on champions you expect to be making charges, so I wouldn't give it to eg a seaguard champion (seaguard champs are actually just dragon sacrifices:D) but it's hard to argue with the value for any other champion that expects to fight.

Side note: GW need to employ more mathematicians

That's interesting, although it is quite a lot of points for getting off hammerhand, which is ultimately still a spell that will do nothing against a lot of units (dragons...). I don't think seaguard are necessarily a bad fit for it, makes them punch a lot harder in combat and the idea is for them to eventually get charged, not just pew pew which they're pretty inefficient at for their points. That said I would usually deploy them pretty centrally, so not sure it's ideal for dodging the enemy lvl 4.

Rick Priestley had a friend write a small computer program that let him work out probabilities when he wrote 4th edition, probably why the fundamentals of that system still work today. I get the feeling though that it's been a long time since any gw writer used a similar resource...

[Jedra]

Seaguard are perfectly fine receiving a charge with the stand & shoot kills - their issues are in the later rounds of combat. But my Seaguard champion survives round 1 maybe one time in 6.

The value of the ring is better understood if you look beyond average wounds, actually, because it makes it possible for a champion to kill a 3 wound character on foot in one round. Particularly low armour level 4 wizards - who won't be able to dispell while in combat

[Velmates]

That's why I was wondering about giving the Reavers a unit champion with the ring and go mage hunting...

[Axiem]

That's why I was wondering about giving the Reavers a unit champion with the ring and go mage hunting...

This could be interesting... I think I prefer the Silver Helms simply because of the 3+ Armour Save means you have a decent chance of actually getting to the intended target, and there's a chance the Champion survives on the swing back.

Looks possible, however, and if you're keeping them super cheap, it's 50% less than the Silver Helms. Worth considering.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Velmates]

That's why I was wondering about giving the Reavers a unit champion with the ring and go mage hunting...

This could be interesting... I think I prefer the Silver Helms simply because of the 3+ Armour Save means you have a decent chance of actually getting to the intended target, and there's a chance the Champion survives on the swing back.

Looks possible, however, and if you're keeping them super cheap, it's 50% less than the Silver Helms. Worth considering.

Kind regards,

Axiem

I was also falling back to 5 SH with shields, champ and muso for this task and 157 points. 5 ER with champ, scout and skirmish are 128, much more fragile, but with 360° charge and scout could be a nice asset. Maybe too expensive and niche for what they do. The 5 SH can also hunt chaff and small units at the sides out of dispell range or even provide a supporting flank charge and don't bleed CR...

[Prince of Spires]

I think ROF is almost an auto-include on a SH champ if you bring one in a unit. 25 core points are relatively easy to find, and it improves the SH unit immensely. You sometimes end up receiving a charge, and then the ring makes a huge difference.

On other units they're a bit more situational. On the other hand, in an edition where almost everything gets 1 attack and AP is relatively expensive, getting 2D3 S4 hits with AP2 is pretty powerful. That's like 6 extra attacks hitting on 3+. Especially combined with our higher I, which means that we go before a lot of things which can reduce attacks back and increase survivability. Yes, a lvl4 has a decent chance of dispelling, but that's assuming the lvl4 isn't the one being stuck in combat with the champ, and at power lvl2, it's still decent.

I can see it being taken a lot. 25pts is like 1.5 extra PG for 6 extra attacks.

Side thought, maybe it helps make WL more viable. A WL champ is still I5, and using the ring doesn't suffer from strike last. So it might help reducing attacks back.

[bkevs84]

I can see it being taken a lot. 25pts is like 1.5 extra PG for 6 extra attacks.

Side thought, maybe it helps make WL more viable. A WL champ is still I5, and using the ring doesn't suffer from strike last. So it might help reducing attacks back.

I had similar thoughts. The cost is basically between 1.5 and 2 more models in a unit. Even on elite non core inf it could be worth it. On WLs I think it could be a difference maker. Doesn't fix the unit but a few less attacks to absorb is always nice.

[Ielthan]

On the flip side, it's pretty easy to kill that white lion champ before he gets to swing. To me it's seems best on cavalry, in anvil units or on chaff/anti chaff units. It's a great item regardless, and can see it really making our army feel properly magical as it really should do, I really felt that was something that was missing from the list pre-arcane journal. Magic rings were what I wanted and GW delivered! Wish it had been corporeal unmaking instead of hammerhand but that would have been pretty op, although harder to get off. Another ring with vauls unmaking (ring of corin) would have been perfect...

[Pash]

Seaguard are perfectly fine receiving a charge with the stand & shoot kills - their issues are in the later rounds of combat. But my Seaguard champion survives round 1 maybe one time in 6.

The value of the ring is better understood if you look beyond average wounds, actually, because it makes it possible for a champion to kill a 3 wound character on foot in one round. Particularly low armour level 4 wizards - who won't be able to dispell while in combat

Just remember that Hammerhand is an Assailment and hits from those are distributed to the unit, not the model in base to base. So the only way you've got a chance to kill a foot wizard is if you're in a challenge with him (not super-unlikely) or if there is no unit left. In which case, your opponent was an idiot to let you charge an unprotected wizard and deserves to be punished for it..

[Prince of Spires]

On the flip side, it's pretty easy to kill that white lion champ before he gets to swing.

Not really. Or at least, remember that, per the FAQ, the weapons attributes dont affect the initiative order for casting spells. So while his regular attacks are strike last because of his axe, the ring is cast at his regular initiative. Which means that even if you didnt charge, you're casting it at I6 first round of combat, and I5 in later rounds. Which is still before many regular units that did charge.

[Jedra]

Seaguard are perfectly fine receiving a charge with the stand & shoot kills - their issues are in the later rounds of combat. But my Seaguard champion survives round 1 maybe one time in 6.

The value of the ring is better understood if you look beyond average wounds, actually, because it makes it possible for a champion to kill a 3 wound character on foot in one round. Particularly low armour level 4 wizards - who won't be able to dispell while in combat

Just remember that Hammerhand is an Assailment and hits from those are distributed to the unit, not the model in base to base. So the only way you've got a chance to kill a foot wizard is if you're in a challenge with him (not super-unlikely) or if there is no unit left. In which case, your opponent was an idiot to let you charge an unprotected wizard and deserves to be punished for it..

Hmm... are you sure? I've been playing them like close combat targeting (ie needs base contact), and can't see anything definitive when rereading the rules. It does say assailment can only hit units you're in combat with - character is one - and the characters section says they can only be attacked by people in base contact, but it doesn't explicitly mention assailment spells.

[Lorthermar]

I think ROF is almost an auto-include on a SH champ if you bring one in a unit. 25 core points are relatively easy to find, and it improves the SH unit immensely. You sometimes end up receiving a charge, and then the ring makes a huge difference.

On other units they're a bit more situational. On the other hand, in an edition where almost everything gets 1 attack and AP is relatively expensive, getting 2D3 S4 hits with AP2 is pretty powerful. That's like 6 extra attacks hitting on 3+. Especially combined with our higher I, which means that we go before a lot of things which can reduce attacks back and increase survivability. Yes, a lvl4 has a decent chance of dispelling, but that's assuming the lvl4 isn't the one being stuck in combat with the champ, and at power lvl2, it's still decent.

I can see it being taken a lot. 25pts is like 1.5 extra PG for 6 extra attacks.

Side thought, maybe it helps make WL more viable. A WL champ is still I5, and using the ring doesn't suffer from strike last. So it might help reducing attacks back.

I personally have tried to up my 2 units of SH to 6-man units in an attempt to improve their output in my last couple of games. RoF is a much more efficient option, with much better bang for buck than an extra model. On the flanks going undispelled this may turn "just another core unit" into something with some serious bite. And against all but the high end elite this may prove quite useful, especially in the cases where you have your first charge still up against infantry. That 1st round of combat can be crucial to hopefully force a FBIGO or hell even a break if your lucky. WL, agreed I think this is spicy tech on the champ tbh.

[Axiem]

Seaguard are perfectly fine receiving a charge with the stand & shoot kills - their issues are in the later rounds of combat. But my Seaguard champion survives round 1 maybe one time in 6.

The value of the ring is better understood if you look beyond average wounds, actually, because it makes it possible for a champion to kill a 3 wound character on foot in one round. Particularly low armour level 4 wizards - who won't be able to dispell while in combat

Just remember that Hammerhand is an Assailment and hits from those are distributed to the unit, not the model in base to base. So the only way you've got a chance to kill a foot wizard is if you're in a challenge with him (not super-unlikely) or if there is no unit left. In which case, your opponent was an idiot to let you charge an unprotected wizard and deserves to be punished for it..

Hmm... are you sure? I've been playing them like close combat targeting (ie needs base contact), and can't see anything definitive when rereading the rules. It does say assailment can only hit units you're in combat with - character is one - and the characters section says they can only be attacked by people in base contact, but it doesn't explicitly mention assailment spells.

The FAQ Clarifies that you only need to be in the Fighting Ranks (not base contact) to use Assailments. In all other senses, they are Attacks and do have Targets, and so can target enemy characters, but only if you are in Base to Base.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Axiem]

On the flip side, it's pretty easy to kill that white lion champ before he gets to swing.

Not really. Or at least, remember that, per the FAQ, the weapons attributes dont affect the initiative order for casting spells. So while his regular attacks are strike last because of his axe, the ring is cast at his regular initiative. Which means that even if you didnt charge, you're casting it at I6 first round of combat, and I5 in later rounds. Which is still before many regular units that did charge.

Yes this is correct -- Spells are Cast at the users Initiative, but if you are still using a weapon that Strikes Last, any Attacks only occur at the model's Initiative.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Csjarrat]

On the flip side, it's pretty easy to kill that white lion champ before he gets to swing.

Not really. Or at least, remember that, per the FAQ, the weapons attributes dont affect the initiative order for casting spells. So while his regular attacks are strike last because of his axe, the ring is cast at his regular initiative. Which means that even if you didnt charge, you're casting it at I6 first round of combat, and I5 in later rounds. Which is still before many regular units that did charge.

Yes this is correct -- Spells are Cast at the users Initiative, but if you are still using a weapon that Strikes Last, any Attacks only occur at the model's Initiative.

Kind regards,

Axiem

That was in reference to doppelganger though as it uses the weapon profile including weapon traits like strikes first/last. Hammerhand would go off at user's initiative and the user would do its weapon strikes at whatever initiative value it has dependent on charges/traits etc as usual

[Sea Helm Jeff]

Any use in putting a RoF on a Shadow Warriors champ?

[Axiem]

That was in reference to doppelganger though as it uses the weapon profile including weapon traits like strikes first/last. Hammerhand would go off at user's initiative and the user would do its weapon strikes at whatever initiative value it has dependent on charges/traits etc as usual

Yep we are in agreement.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Not really. Or at least, remember that, per the FAQ, the weapons attributes dont affect the initiative order for casting spells. So while his regular attacks are strike last because of his axe, the ring is cast at his regular initiative. Which means that even if you didnt charge, you're casting it at I6 first round of combat, and I5 in later rounds. Which is still before many regular units that did charge.

Yes this is correct -- Spells are Cast at the users Initiative, but if you are still using a weapon that Strikes Last, any Attacks only occur at the model's Initiative.

Kind regards,

Axiem

That was in reference to doppelganger though as it uses the weapon profile including weapon traits like strikes first/last. Hammerhand would go off at user's initiative and the user would do its weapon strikes at whatever initiative value it has dependent on charges/traits etc as usual

A small wrinkle to this, to be clear, is that any weapons with Strike First will hit at the initiative at which Spectral Doppelganger is cast, so Strike First for Spectral doesn’t matter unless the Wizard itself has Strike First from a non-weapon rule, like a Prince or Noble with the Loremaster Honour.

[Ielthan]

On the flip side, it's pretty easy to kill that white lion champ before he gets to swing.

Not really. Or at least, remember that, per the FAQ, the weapons attributes dont affect the initiative order for casting spells. So while his regular attacks are strike last because of his axe, the ring is cast at his regular initiative. Which means that even if you didnt charge, you're casting it at I6 first round of combat, and I5 in later rounds. Which is still before many regular units that did charge.

Oh I see, I didn't know that. I've been playing assailments incorrectly!

[Ielthan]

Any use in putting a RoF on a Shadow Warriors champ?

Having taken them to a few tournaments with chariot runner to screen my chariot prince, I did find myself using them quite a lot of the time to scout behind enemy lines instead, but their total lack of combat prowess really made them fairly useless in this way. Aside from march blocking they just can't threaten anything really, their 5 S3 shots are basically ignorable too, and that they can't march and shoot really holds them back too. Their real nadir was 5 charging the rear of 5 jezzails, bouncing off them, then getting run down by them the next turn. With a champ and RoF they won't be a very optimised unit, but could be quite a useful, cheap, utility unit. Also they'll likely be quite easy to keep outside of the enemy lvl 4's dispel range so can make use of the RoF well into warmachines.