JolofNar wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:57 am
Ok wow, thanks for getting back to me, this list looks really cool, but raises loads of questions.
1. archer darts? this is not something i have ever considered, please explain everything about this as it seems fascinating. so we are using them as 1 model wide columns? assume that means they can volley? they march? how do you deploy them? are they to block flanking? this just opens up whole ways to play the game, i really hadn't considered.
2. griffon guy looks super cool, but no magic banner? does battle banner work here? i see he is playing for comand range, can he stand up to tougher monster builds? bret duke hero?
3.null stone, i sort of get that, but how does it impact the game? is -1 to casting bubble, worth the 75 points? or is it about the immune to magic personally effect?
4. archmage and battle magic as chosen lore, I see that a bit here. Why battle magic? is high not better? genuinely intrigued on peoples thoughts on various lores, what is good about each, I have seen cool spells in all of them, I back and forth on so many options, but haven't got a good grasp on what each is doing yet fully.
5. if i need more silver helms i probably have about 12, could grab some others to go to 16 if that helps?
6. generally are magic banners on units good? is the war banner any good for silver helms or swordmasters? would it help them to push though on combats? can you have one on every unit? or is it one per army?
7. swordmasters, would they be better with a mage in the unit, and popping walk between worlds to cross field without getting shot to death? is that effective?
8.as above, i was lookign at alternatives to the wizrd chariot, white sword doppleganger situation. could a wizard in swordmasters bus(?) with a dragon slaying sword, and a warden of saphery, pull off the same effect? he would have autokill 6s on both creatures (dragon slaying sword) , and standard guys(killing blow), as well as +2 strength -2 ap without 6s using his sword of hoeth. is that a workable situation or not quick enough/too vulnerable even with drilled?.
9. lothern skycutter. is the big bolt thrower worth it? is a lion chariot better? how does each play? just asking as it gives me an excuse to get a lion chariot.
10. just to say thanks for getting back to me, eager to try new ideas out, and just really enjoying the game and painting in general.
I can maybe chime in here and explain the stuff I know (it got a bit longer than intended so I hope you don't mind the essay):
1. Basically, deploy them 1 wide, 5 deep and they just volley 5 shots a turn until they are needed. When the time comes to sacrifice them for the glory of ulthuan, you get a 15", very maneuverable march (as your frontage is so narrow you pay basically nothing for a wheel) to block units, redirect charges or set up your own charges. E.g. You can march them out in front of an enemy cav who will either have to maneuver out of the way or charge, which leaves them then vulnerable to a charge by your own mobile units on your next turn. Just be wary of the average overrun & your own charge distances for this one. In theory you can even use the darts before that to provde cover to other units, forcing strong enemy shooting to either waste shots into the 5 man squad of archers, or suffer the -1 penalty to shoot at what they are protecting.
2. Battle banner and war banner are both decent choices to make him a mobile combat res machine, though it does make him a decent bit more expensive. If you run him with a lance it can be a decent investment though as it causes enemy units to fall back or break more easily, so he doesn't get stuck in prolonged combat. As for the bret duke, I somewhat doubt anything can stand up to him cost effectively, especially if falcon horn is in play. Opal Amulet should protect you from the first monster slayer and you do have a passive +2 combat res over him, which can at least help you tie him up for a while for roughly the same ammount of points. It's really as good as you're gonna get, I think. He also offers a little bit of protection against screaminng vampire counts lists with his 18" pure of heart leadership aura.
3. It's basically an 18" -1 to cast and dispell bubble which doesn't affect you quite as much due to your once per turn casting reroll. It pretty much shuts down any lower level wizards, plus now you have a T6 monster that will be immune to magic the entire game (anointed gets veteran so he rerolls that leadership check for the null stone). So enemy magic missiles? Irrelevant. Miasmic Mirage? Done for. Word of Pain making the phoenix T5? It's a word of mild discomfort now, and spectral doppelgänger turns into nothing more than a vivid imagination of the enemy mage. Unless I'm misunderstanding the rule, you even ignore effects of spells that do not target you directly, therefore ignoring any extra attacks, strength or ward saves thrown on models attacking it or being attacked by it, so it's pretty neat.
4. So battle magic gives you a couple of very strong spells:
s. Hammerhand does what it's supposed to, it isn't as strong as spectral doppelgänger but it doesn't require an expensive setup either. It's just a swiss army knife of assailment spells: Good against most things, but it won't win you combats by itself.
i. Fireball, one of the best magic missiles against, honestly pretty much anything, but especially lightly armoured enemies. You can cast it comfortably while staying out of enemy dispell range.
ii. Curse of arrow attraction, which makes your shooting slightly more consistent. It's alright.
iii. Pillar of Fire. Now this is the big one. The vortex moves through units in a direction of your choice and deals a ton of low strength but high AP hits. Vortexes jump through units now, so cast it to the side of a line of multiple units close to eachother and watch it jump through multiple ones at once. It counts as dangerous terrain when it doesn't move, so place it in front of enemy units about to charge and you ruin both their charge roll and remove models if they roll unlucky checks. It's an arguably OP spell.
iv. Arcane Urgency. Array your dragon princes into marching column, move 24". Cast arcane urgency. Move another 24". At this point you're guaranteed to be behind enemy lines. Next turn use drilled to reform and charge (I love my dragon prince railgun spell). You can also do the same with the Phoenix (if you don't activate nullstone) or the griffon. Even silverhelms can suddenly shoot 32" across the board, or you use it to keep up with your swordmasters, giving them that 20"-30" move depending on whether you are using marching column on (both) moves (with the same drilled & charge idea next turn). Or you just use it to reform or back off a unit. It gives you mobility which can force the enemy to react to you rather than vice versa.
v. Oaken Shield. Here not too amazing due to the null stone, I'd just swap it out for a signature spell if you get it, and given this phoenix will want to be in combat at one point (and the HE signature spells kinda suck) I'd probably take hammerhand.
vi. Curse of Cowardly Flight. Decent against low leadership armies. I would say arguably the weakest spell in the lore, but it can become pretty strong towards the end of a game.
High magic can be decent, but its spells are more situational, and especially on this specific mage/army some of its spells aren't very good:
s. Drain magic us really bad imo. The first thing an enemy Lv4 will do is dispell this spell on a 6 on the dice (like 75% of the times) and then go on casting unimpeded. Combine this with the fact that he already gets a chance to dispell your original casting roll and the spell will get through around 1/7-1/8 times.
i. Walk Between Worlds can be great, but now that you can no longer cast it after charging it is more of a defensive tool, and this army likes to be offensive. Reserve move is ofc still great if you have the mage sitting in a unit of sisters or LSG to reform or retreat post shooting, but the mage doesn't really need it on his own in this build.
ii. Fiery Convo nukes big blocks of infantry, which can be neat for clearing chaff, but it isn't as versatile as fireball, for anything other than regular & heavy infantry will hardly be affected by it.
iii. Tempest is imo the best spell in the high magic lore. You can use it to kill fanatics, reduce enemy charge ranges and movement, disrupt enemy formations to take away rank bonuses (especially crucial against warbands or hordes), control the impetuous (especially the enemy baiting it) of your own dragon princes somwhat by casting it near them and then dispelling it should you wish to charge.
iv. It's a okay assailment spell. I honestly haven't really used it.
v. Fury of Khaine makes your silver helms a lot more dangerous and turns your DP & Swordmasters into blenders. It only holds half a round of combat though, so you better hope they delete whatever they hit. Iirc it also affects both mounts and riders seperately, so the horses get extra attacks too.
vi. Shield of saphery also only lasts half the round, DP already have a ward, Swordmasters need the ward more when they get charged than vice versa, so it's just okay here and in general I think.
So in conclusion, high magic is honestly a neat lore, it is just less suited for this list and its spells are a lot more situational.
6. Imo, there are a few that are decent. War banner/Battle banner on units relying on the charge (= units with lances mostly) is neat, Rampaging banner on DP can make impetuous more managable. Razor Banner of Seaguard for example gives them some teeth against heavy armoured enemies. Most other banners (especially the HE ones) I don't really bother with as they give us attributes that we already excel in. Unless they are marked with an (*) you can only have a single magic item of a kind per army, including magic banners. Speaking of magic items: If you want to be fancy, you could also try the cloak of beards on a DP champion to terror bomb enemy units on the charge.
7. Honestly the best defence against getting shot to death is imo crossing that field fast. Walk between worlds sounds amazing but it's always one spellbreaking rune or dispell scroll away from being offline for a turn, and any opponent will then just unload everything they have into the vulnerable unit. And even if the swordmasters are ethereal, the rest of the army (including two large targets here) is distinctly not, so gunlines just focus on something else instead. Also, you can no longer cast it during a turn in which you charged (which you would really like to do every of your turns starting at turn 2-3) so the spell won't do much thereafter unless you get stuck in a really bad spot. So I would say it isn't so much ineffective as it is unecessary.
8. Unfortunately I'm fairly certain the Sword of Hoeth isn't technically a magic weapon (it isn't listed under magic weapons and the loremaster/waren of saphery elven honours also hint at it), it's a weapon that happens to have magical attacks. You could still use the dragon sword for monster slayer + killing blow, though you are still only striking at initiative 6 as an unarmoured mage, most monsters and especially characters on the charge (which they will most likely get against infantry) should strike well before that. It could potentially work as a deterrent though, I haven't tried anything similar myself yet.
9. They way I see it, if you play defensively it is worth it (one hit, and as a result probably kill) on a heavy cav model and the BT has paid for itself. This list probably wants to move forwards and use the skycutters mobility, so it won't shoot much and as a result the BT isn't worth it.
As for the lion chariot, they sacrifice quite a bit of mobility of the skycutter for slightly more hitting & staying power. I've had it solo a stegadon at one point, so it can definitely do well, but they feel better suited to defensive armies where the opponent comes to you and that stubborn really can come into play. Take it with a grain of salt though, I only ever ran them in ca. 3 games up until now.
