I got rekt - 1999 Tournament list

[Vindicte]

Small disclaimer : as much as I'd likde to be a good player, I'm a beginner, which means I basically suck at the game. So when I test my 1999pts tournament's list against an experienced player using a chaos lord on dragon and 200 points of warhounds, I lose. Like, the "I killed 7 warhounds" kinda lose.

So, the tournament is in three weeks, and even if the 1999 points format doesn't seem to play in favour of HE, I'd like to spend my whole day not getting stomped. Is it too much to ask ? Probably, but I'm gonna try anyway

This is the list I played :

HE tournament [2000 pts]

++ Characters [769 pts] ++

Noble [321 pts]
- Great weapon
- Light armour
- Shield
- General
- Sun Dragon
- Dragon Helm
- Opal Amulet
- Seed of Rebirth
- Blood of Caledor

Archmage [308 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Barded Elven Steed
- Silvery Wand
- Opal Amulet
- Seed of Rebirth
- Spelleater Axe
- Blood of Caledor
- High Magic

Mage [140 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- On foot
- Lore Familiar
- Pure of Heart
- Elementalism

++ Core Units [519 pts] ++

8 Silver Helms [235 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)
- Standard bearer [War Banner]
- Musician

6 Ellyrian Reavers [134 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Light armour
- Shortbows
- Scouts
- Harbinger (champion)
- Musician

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

++ Special Units [380 pts] ++

8 Dragon Princes [380 pts]
- Lance
- Full plate armour
- Barding
- Shield
- Drakemaster [The Cloak of Beards]
- Standard bearer [Razor Standard]

++ Rare Units [332 pts] ++

Lion Chariot of Chrace [125 pts]
- Chracian Great Blade

10 Sisters of Avelorn [207 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour
- High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin + Obsidian Lodestone]

The general idea behind this :
The archmage goes into dragon princes, the mage into the sisters. I love the dragon princes and the idea to play a Caledor kinda themed army, but maybe I'm not good enough to be able to deal with impetusous. The idea of the list is to wait and blast in order to force my opponent to move and to charge with everything I got once he arrives. Didn't went well.
If you have to choose, what is more important ? Archmage or Prince ? I can't see where you just can ignore the lvl 4 caster.


With this in mind, this is the last render of my list, what do you think?

Ulthuan rises [1999 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, High Elf Realms
===

++ Characters [877 pts] ++

Archmage [395 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Lion Chariot of Chrace
- Silvery Wand
- Seed of Rebirth
- 2x Opal Amulet
- Chracian Hunter
- Battle Magic

Noble - General [262 pts]
- Lance
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- General
- Griffon
- Dragon Helm
- Opal Amulet
- Seed of Rebirth
- Pure of Heart

Noble BSB [220 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer [Razor Standard]
- Barded Elven Steed
- Opal Amulet
- Giant Blade
- Blood of Caledor

++ Core Units [533 pts] ++

5 Silver Helms [152 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)
- Standard bearer [Banner of Ellyrion]

5 Silver Helms [126 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)

5 Ellyrian Reavers [105 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Light armour
- Shortbows
- Scouts
- Skirmishes

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

++ Special Units [402 pts] ++

9 Dragon Princes [402 pts]
- Lance
- Full plate armour
- Barding
- Shield
- Drakemaster [The Loremaster's Cloak]
- Standard bearer [Rampaging Banner]

++ Rare Units [187 pts] ++

10 Sisters of Avelorn [187 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour
- High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin]


Should I drop the dragon princes and play a dragon and Swordmasters instead ? What would you change to this list ? Am I trying to play things too difficult for my current level ? Thank you for your advices.
Oh, and if you have any advice or thoughts about the "if you had to chose, archmage or prince" question, I'm all hear !

[Vindicte]

It Can even go further (At this point, I have no Idea what I am doing), as Axiem suggested it in his post about combat archmage :

===
Caledor rises again [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, High Elf Realms
===

++ Characters [895 pts] ++

Archmage [318 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Barded Elven Steed
- Lore Familiar
- Dragon Slaying Sword
- Opal Amulet
- Blood of Caledor
- Illusion

Noble - General [327 pts]
- Lance
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- General
- Sun Dragon
- Dragon Helm
- Opal Amulet
- Seed of Rebirth
- Blood of Caledor

Noble BSB [250 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer [Banner of Arcane Protection]
- Barded Elven Steed
- Opal Amulet
- Giant Blade
- Blood of Caledor

++ Core Units [533 pts] ++

5 Silver Helms [152 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)
- Standard bearer [Banner of Ellyrion]

5 Silver Helms [126 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)

5 Ellyrian Reavers [105 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Light armour
- Shortbows
- Scouts
- Skirmishes

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

++ Special Units [375 pts] ++

8 Dragon Princes [375 pts]
- Lance
- Full plate armour
- Barding
- Shield
- Drakemaster [The Loremaster's Cloak]
- Standard bearer [Razor Standard]

++ Rare Units [197 pts] ++

10 Sisters of Avelorn [197 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour
- Ambushers (0-1 unit)
- High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin]

[Mendaciun]

If you're ever having to play a 1999+1 tourny, definitely go handmaiden general. The situation is especially suited for her to lead. You can do something like this:
++ Characters [962 pts] ++
Handmaiden of the Everqueen [90 pts]
(Hand weapon, Handmaiden's spear, Bow of Avelorn, Light armour, Horn of Isha, General)

Archmage [560 pts]
(Hand weapon, Level 4 Wizard, Star Dragon, Silvery Wand, Seed of Rebirth, Opal Amulet, Talisman of Protection, Pure of Heart, High Magic)

Noble [312 pts]
(Lance, Full plate armour, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer [War Banner], Griffon, Dragon Helm, Opal Amulet, Seed of Rebirth, Pure of Heart)

++ Core Units [512 pts] ++
22 Sisters of Avelorn [362 pts]
(Bows of Avelorn, Light armour, High Sister [The Loremaster's Cloak])

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
(Hand weapons, Longbows)

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
(Hand weapons, Longbows)

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
(Hand weapons, Longbows)

++ Special Units [229 pts] ++
6 Dragon Princes [229 pts]
(Lance, Full plate armour, Barding, Shield, Drakemaster)

++ Rare Units [297 pts] ++
5 Sisters of Avelorn [117 pts]
(Bows of Avelorn, Light armour, Stubborn (0-1 unit), High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin])

Lothern Skycutter [90 pts]
(Cavalry spears, Shortbows)

Lothern Skycutter [90 pts]
(Cavalry spears, Shortbows)

---

Paying for stubborn on the sisters in cote is a choice you can do but I figure LD9 rerollable is reliable enough.

Archers in core can be a unit of silver helms if you want to go that way.

Very similar to the list Pashmonster used, but griffon noble over another Archmage on SkyCutter.

Idea is to create space and engage threats with SkyCutters + dragon princes + star dragon and griffon. Everything else you just shoot.

Tbf this is a higher end list and is slightly more difficult to play, but high elves require more careful positioning due to higher movement and initiative but lower raw stats

[Vindicte]

Thank you for your reply and inputs! Sadly I'm limited by my current collection: Only 10 sisters and no skycutter :/

The last.list I did may not be optimal, I don't know if the deathstar concept IS still relevent in TOW.

[Axiem]

I'll try to give some thoughts over the weekend -- I think you're close to a strong list, some optimizations as well as tactics you can employ. Out of curiosity: what has led you to this style of list? Personal preference, model availability?

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Vindicte]

Hi Axiem!
Three things led to this list:
- personal preference (I just love the 6th edition dragon princes, and finally beeing able to buy some at an honest Price a few months ago made me start collecting HE),
- model availability: despite the listed models, I have about 25 Sword masters, 20 Spears, a mage on dragon, a chracian charriot, one bolt thrower and that's about it),
- my last two games: I've been obliterated by a chaos player twice, losing my 2000 points and killing less than 10 warhounds each time. I just want my tourney not to be three games in a row where I am tabled in two turns. I'm fully aware my skill heavily weights on that anyway, and a good list will Only get me as far as I Can go, but still

Oh, and I love the Idea to.play a Caledor themed army, even though I get that a themed list isn't maybe the best way to Roll for a tourney.

I don't have a lot of experience, no Idea about theorycrafting and such. I just edited my list again and again, Reading stuff here and on Facebook groups, getting inspired and trying to include good ideas inside.

Last, I think that, when it Comes tona choice, an archmage is probably better than a prince, even though it might be trickier to play, so not the best thing for me.

With that in mind, I did a final try Yesterday, and am pretty happy with the results (kind of full cav list), and will be really interested in your thoughts about this one as well:

===
Caledor awakes [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, High Elf Realms
===

++ Characters [958 pts] ++

Prince [526 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- General
- Star Dragon
- Ogre Blade
- Opal Amulet
- Dragon Helm
- Charmed Shield
- Pure of Heart

Noble [258 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Griffon
- Opal Amulet
- Giant Blade
- Pure of Heart

Mage [174 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- Elven Steed
- Lore Familiar
- Power Scroll
- Pure of Heart
- Battle Magic

++ Core Units [508 pts] ++

5 Silver Helms [126 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)

5 Silver Helms [126 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- High Helm (champion)

5 Ellyrian Reavers [111 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Light armour
- Shortbows
- Scouts
- Skirmishers
- Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers [95 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Light armour
- Shortbows
- Skirmishers

5 Elven Archers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows

++ Special Units [222 pts] ++

5 Dragon Princes [222 pts]
- Lance
- Full plate armour
- Barding
- Shield
- Drakemaster [The Cloak of Beards]

++ Rare Units [312 pts] ++

10 Sisters of Avelorn [187 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour
- High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin]

Lion Chariot of Chrace [125 pts]
- Chracian Great Blade

[Vindicte]

Are two RBT a better option than the lion charriot?

[double_skulls]

I'd be taking Seed of Rebirth rather than Opal Amulets on the Prince & Noble. On the Noble I'd just take a Great Weapon instead of the Giant Blade and maybe consider the Armour of Caledor too for the triple save.

I like running the cav slightly bigger than 5, perhaps 7 wide. With Silver Helms that's quite a bit more hitting power in the front rank, and its a more resilient bunker for mage etc.

At the moment I just don't think that RBTs are good value, and I think you'll find the Lion Chariot better value. I think the Skycutter is marginally better still, because fly just makes it a bit easier to hit what you want.

[Axiem]

Okay some thoughts (starting from your latest list):

- Others might point to your Level 2 Mage as an area to fix: it's not terrible, but it's a lot of points for what could almost be a Level 4, and to get any effect out of him, you're going to have to keep him away from the 24" range of enemy Mages. Not impossible, but tricky. You're also giving up any Magic Defense. I would think about what precisely you want him to do: if you want him to cast a few spells on the edges, I'd go all Offensive with him: Ruby Ring and Silver Wand, and dance outside the enemy 24" range. Otherwise, try to shave off a few points, and make him a Level 4, even without anything.

- Star Dragon Prince is a solid choice, setup is good. I'm not sure you need both the Ogre Blade and Giant Blade in the list: personally, I would go more defensive, with 2x Opal Amulet's on each, and keep them with Lances. I find I just want them to live, and they characters and their mounts will carry the day.

- Core looks good. Consider making the Helms 6x. I would also probably go for 2x Archer Darts, 2x Helms, 1x Reavers personally, or 2x Helms, 2x Reavers, and make sure they're slightly bigger and both units of Reavers have Scouts (maybe 4x 6 models kind of setup).

- I don't rate the Lion Chariot without a Character, but some people have been getting results with them, so perhaps I'm missing something. Personally, I'd rather get a threat out of the model, and with only 4 Wounds I don't feel comfortable with it. Maybe consider it as a mount for your Mage.

- If you're going to go with a Cav Bus, then take Silver Helms. If you're not going to go with a Cav Bus, then take Dragon Princes.

- Re: Combat Archmage on Horse (the Caledor build): I think this has a place, but I was using it to test very specific matchups: namely Bretonnians with the goal of being a deterrent to Peg Knights. The build is very specific: it's to make sure I can strike at or before Peg Knights (who have Counter Charge). If that's not a particular challenge for you, I'd ignore for the moment. Impetuous also makes the unit he's in more of a liability.

- Focus on solid tactics: take control of board space, setup favorable charges with misdirectors, force the other guy to make bad choices and/or get lucky to win. If you push everything forward all the time, you may be disappointed with the results. When playing Cavalry-armies, it's important to think in the mindset of limiting opponent's good options, so you're not in a position of having to make long-bomb or unfavorable combats.


With that all said, and based on your available model collection, this is how I'd approach it:

Option 1

395 -- Archmage, Level 4, Battle/High/Illusion, Chracian Hunter, on Lion Chariot, Great Blade, Silver Wand, Seed of Rebirth, 2x Opal Amulet
337 -- Prince, General, Pure of Heart, on Griffon, Full Plate, Shield, Lance, Dragonhelm, Seed of Rebirth, Opal Amulet, Luckstone
190 -- Noble, BSB, Pure of Heart, on Barded Elven Steed, Full Plate, Shield, Lance, 2x Opal Amulet, War Banner

327 -- 11 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, Standard, Musician, Loremaster's Cloak, Banner of Ellyrion
105 -- 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows & Spears, Scouts, Skirmish (one of these can be swapped for 2x 5 Archers if you prefer a more defensive style)
105 -- 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows & Spears, Scouts, Skirmish

192 -- 5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster
192 -- 5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster

157 -- 8 Sisters of Avelorn, High Sister, Ruby Ring of Ruin

TOTAL: 2000

Helms deploy 4x3 to get max rank bonus, starting with Combat Res of 5. If you go with the 2x 5 Archers, consider dropping the second unit of 5 Reavers for an additional 4 Helms (if you have the models) to make the Helms 4x4 for more point conservation.

You have 5 Combat Threats: Chariot Mage, Griffon Prince, Helm Bus, 2x Dragon Princes. Control the board, restrict enemy movement, force through on sides and/or make uncomfortable positions for your opponent.


Option 2

255 -- Noble, Pure of Heart, on Griffon, Full Plate, Lance, Charmed Shield, 2x Opal Amulet
249 -- Archmage, Level 4, High Magic, Pure of Heart, on Elven Steed, Spelleater Axe, Silvery Wand
148 -- Noble, BSB, Pure of Heart, on Barded Elven Steed, Full Plate, Lance, Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet
143 -- Noble, General, Pure of Heart, on Barded Elven Steed, Full Plate, Lance, Charmed Shield, 2x Opal Amulet

150 -- 6 Silver Helms, Shield, Champion
150 -- 6 Silver Helms, Shield, Champion
105 -- 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Spears & Bows, Skirmishers, Scouts
95 -- 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Spears & Bows, Skirmishers

465 -- 12 Dragon Princes, Champion, Standard, Musician

157 -- 10 Sisters of Avelorn, High Sister
80 -- Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower

+3

TOTAL: 2000

Same concept, different execution

- Helms instead of Princes on the Flanks, Princes in the middle with all the Characters. You're going to go in with the Princes, potentially into worse combats than you might otherwise with the Helms, but High Magic can make sure you see it through, with buffing your attacks even further, and giving the unit a Ward Save. The Mage can also cast Assailments from he second rank.


Option 3

447 -- Prince, General, Pure of Heart, on Moon Dragon, Full Plate, Lance, Shield, Dragonhelm, Seed of Rebirth, 2x Opal Amulet
249 -- Archmage, Level 4, High Magic, Pure of Heart, on Elven Steed, Spelleater Axe, Silvery Wand
145 -- Noble, BSB, Pure of Heart, on Barded Elven Steed, Full Plate, Shield, Lance, Shield, Opal Amulet
140 -- Noble, Pure of Heart, on Barded Elven Steed, Full Plate, Shield, Lance, 2x Opal Amulet

350 -- 13 Silver Helms, Champion, Standard, Musician, Banner of Ellyrion
150 -- 6 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion
150 -- 6 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion
50 -- 5 Archers
50 -- 5 Archers

187 -- 10 Sisters of Avelorn, High Sister, Ruby Ring of Ruin
80 -- Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower

+2

TOTALL: 2000

Dragon variation. Not quite enough points to get it to a Star Dragon, but Moon Dragon + Helm Bus with Characters is killy enough. Not exactly how would take them, but because of your model availability, this is about as close as I could get.

Based on what you have, I think Option 1 is the strongest, but it depends on your meta and what you're likely to encounter.

If you're looking for results though, focus on tactics. Identify the units you can hope to kill, identify the ones you are unlikely to, and play the game in such a way that maximizes your chance to kill what you can and avoid what you can't. Don't force fights that are unfavorable, especially with your big knight unit. Remember, moving backwards for 1/2 of your normal movement is often the best thing you can do with a Cavalry Army.

Consider this:

- Turn 1 - Move forward to just out of range of opponent's charges, or offer charges that require double-sixes.

- Opponent can either risk a single-digit percentage-chance charge, or move forward, guaranteeing you easier charges, or move backwards/not at all.

- In this situation, what most players do is they move forward slightly, giving you easier charges.

- If you have the opponent outranged (such as with Chaos), simply back up whatever distance your opponent moved forward (i.e. he moved forward 2, back up 2). Then proceed to get another round of shooting/magic in.

- Keep your flanks moving up during this time, encircling the opponent.


Think about this kind of play with this list.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Vindicte]

Helms deploy 4x3 to get max rank bonus, starting with Combat Res of 5.

Hey Axiem! Thank you for your explanation, it is really helpful in m'y progression.
There is something bothering me in your reply: how do you get a static res of 5 with a unit of 11 silver Helms + BSB?
I count:
- Silver Helms banner (1)
- BSB with War banner (2)
- Max rank bonus (1)
What is the last point I miss?

[Axiem]

Hey Axiem! Thank you for your explanation, it is really helpful in m'y progression.
There is something bothering me in your reply: how do you get a static res of 5 with a unit of 11 silver Helms + BSB?
I count:
- Silver Helms banner (1)
- BSB with War banner (2)
- Max rank bonus (1)
What is the last point I miss?

Close Order, pg 101:

Combat Result Bonus: Whilst in Combat Order, a Close Order formation may claim a bonus of +1 combat result point (see page 151).

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Vindicte]

Aaah yes, I forgot this one! Thank you