Balance Update - NEW Update, June 10

[Francis]

Yeah, challenges are annoying when Behemoths can make them. I recently did a stupid thing and charged a baron, the Green Knight and a unit of pegasi into a vampire on dragon. Thought I maybe had a shot at taking him out with a combined charge. Then of course he challenges and the whole dynamic changes. Lost me a game I had basically won at that point. Challenging allows Behemoths to avoid being ganged up on, which couldn't have been the intention. IMO, Behemoths should not be allowed to challenge downwards.

[Ielthan]

Yeah, challenges are annoying when Behemoths can make them. I recently did a stupid thing and charged a baron, the Green Knight and a unit of pegasi into a vampire on dragon. Thought I maybe had a shot at taking him out with a combined charge. Then of course he challenges and the whole dynamic changes. Lost me a game I had basically won at that point. Challenging allows Behemoths to avoid being ganged up on, which couldn't have been the intention. IMO, Behemoths should not be allowed to challenge downwards.

It used to work well because in older editions the max overkill was +3, so a unit with +3 ranks and a banner would always win a combat Vs a monster by 1 even if the monster got max overkill in the challenge. It was a good little interaction that meant monsters couldn't just rampage through armies like they can now, and made infantry useful.

[Jedra]

Yeah, challenges are annoying when Behemoths can make them. I recently did a stupid thing and charged a baron, the Green Knight and a unit of pegasi into a vampire on dragon. Thought I maybe had a shot at taking him out with a combined charge. Then of course he challenges and the whole dynamic changes. Lost me a game I had basically won at that point. Challenging allows Behemoths to avoid being ganged up on, which couldn't have been the intention. IMO, Behemoths should not be allowed to challenge downwards.

I did exactly the same in an early game- it's the logical thing to do to take out a big scary thing, but the rules don't follow that logic!

Ive stopped taking champions on Cavalry for precisely this reason. It's also a strong plus for chariots and i guess unridden monsters, although it makes any infantry character in a unit super vulnerable.

[Serathail]

though I do like using impact hits instead of stomp. Maybe a combination. D3+1 stomp attacks from the Star Dragon and D3 impact hits could be a solution. Makes it actually more reliable on the charge but potentially weaker afterwords.

The reason I personally somewhat dislike giving them impact hits is that it gives big monsters the one thing they have somewhat lacked for now, which is high initiative attacks (so they hit even before most characters and countercharging units). So I fear them killing 1-3 models at I10 before the attaker even gets to strike might be detrimental to the system overall.

Right now if ive managed to bog it down for a turn and eg flank charge with the DPs, the presence of a champ allows the monster to stay safe and blunt the charge entirely (can't decline if it's only 1 rank)... learnt this the hard way so stopped taking Cavalry champs... or lets the opponent retire a character that would be very useful for pulling down the monster.

On the bright side, with DP you can always drill to have 1 model in the back rank. Bit more problematic if the original target of the beastie only has one rank left tho...

And from a fluff side... I don't feel like there's any shame in your wizard declining to go toe to toe with a chais lord on two headed dragon!

Yeah, challenges are annoying when Behemoths can make them. I recently did a stupid thing and charged a baron, the Green Knight and a unit of pegasi into a vampire on dragon. Thought I maybe had a shot at taking him out with a combined charge. Then of course he challenges and the whole dynamic changes. Lost me a game I had basically won at that point. Challenging allows Behemoths to avoid being ganged up on, which couldn't have been the intention. IMO, Behemoths should not be allowed to challenge downwards.

Absolutely agree there. Would be kind of neat if models below the challenger's unit strength (just in general) could just ignore these challenge offers without suffering negative repercussions. Why would the unit be demoralized if a champion (or say a mage) on foot declined to duel a chaos lord on a huge dragon and choses to stand their ground together with their unit which is supposed to support/protect them? (Same as a mount would for that point cost) To me it makes little sense thematically. Just let the weaker party stick it out in the front rank if they choose to do so; The challenger can usually still slash into them but no longer miraculously dodges the entire supporting units into a challenge.
Meanwhile the other way around (and at equal unit strength) challenges could still work as normal. After all it would be truly demoralizing to have your a chaos lord on a chaos steed decline a challenge from a measly sentinel, so he'll either have to accept and fight him on his own, or avoid the confrontation entirely by falling back to the second rank.

[bkevs84]

You could fluff up some factions where feats of battle prowess or hautyness would make some unit champs or models function like now. Your grail knight champ likely shouldn't fear no dragon, same with your questing knights or a Dragon Prince champ. Whitelions as a bodyguard also prob don't have an option to not jump in front of a dragon. Could tie it immune to psychology, or body gaurd type units, add impetious, or other proud factions.

Would look real poor for your champion or hero with the mark of a chaos god to decline that challange so maybe they become unflavored by the gods, or don't have an option not too.

In regards to behemoths and impacts. I agree int 10 impacts are a bit much. I do still feel that you could have the thunder stomps or other stomps function like a charge bonus. You only get it the turn you charge in x distance.

[Axiem]

Updates, this is summarized from old World Fanatics stream discussions:

During yesterday's Old World Fanatics stream, a viewer was sharing rumours that I hadn't heard before. No idea if they are reliable, but the viewer did talk about having a source and did say that they'd be proved right on some of them soon. Another viewer corroborated some of the rumours at one point too fit what that's worth. As always, be sceptical. Anyway, with that caveat, the rumours were:

Big rules update coming July: buff to hand weapon and shield for infantry; skirmishers getting a big overhaul including 180 degree LOS; nerf to level 2 and 4 Wizards (specifically they gain the same cast and dispel bonus that level 1/3 do, with the only advantage being the extra spell); some unspecified buff to close order infantry.

Also a rumour that Warriors of Chaos are getting a refresh of their range for a future release (possible 2nd ed, possible just a big release a bit like Cathay).
Mordheim is being worked on, but that doesn't mean it'll actually see the light of day. It's in very early stages.

Could just be making stuff up, but I thought I'd share anyway. They said they're going to ask they're source for more details on the rules update soon, so if there's more I'll pass it on

This does align what has been posted elsewhere about Hand Weapon + Shield update, but first time I've heard anything about nerfing Level 2/4 Wizards.

Kind regards,

[Prince of Spires]

Interesting. If the only thing changing for infantry is the return of the Handweapon + Shield bonus, then it will do absolutely nothing for infantry. A 6+ ward still means that every 5 out of 6 kills ends up staying dead. And handweapon + shield infantry will still be dying in droves, not killing anything, and still be receiving the charge. It will effectively only buff models that don't really need it.

The skirmisher 180 degree LOS isn't a big deal, though that of course depends on what else they want to change. It will require a bit more careful positioning, especially with bigger units. But 180 degrees is plenty for almost all purposes.

The Wizard nerf is a big one. If all you're getting for the extra level is 1 spell, then it's way too expensive at its current cost. I get that currently people only ever take a lvl1 or 3 if they have absolutely no points to spare, so something might need fixing. But this feels like too big a step in the other direction. 1 spell is worth 15pts (per the Silvery wand). This change will make our mages suck even more than they already do. It will just make lvl2-4 mages as bad as lvl1-3. Which means there's almost no reason to bring a normal mage anymore, since you're unlikely to get your spells cast.

[Jedra]

This change will make our mages suck even more than they already do. It will just make lvl2-4 mages as bad as lvl1-3. Which means there's almost no reason to bring a normal mage anymore, since you're unlikely to get your spells cast.

Relatively speaking, our mages are actually better off from this, at least for ONE spell per turn, because of Lileath's blessing.

Did a quick maths of casting a level 9+ spell. Assumes a level 4 caster and dispeller.

Normal Level 4: 83% chance to cast, 35% chance it's dispelled = 53% total chance to cast
With change: 72% chance to cast, 30% chance to dispel = 50% total chance to cast

High Elf Lvl 4: 97% chance to cast, 35% chance to dispell = 63% total chance to cast
With change: 92% chance to cast, 30% chance to dispel = 65% total chance

But also... this is a super minor tweak frankly, and kinda dumb to put in (I think it doesn't really fix anything and agree it messes with points costings)

[bkevs84]

The change of LoS for skirmishers won't affect us too much with smart placement, it should stop the peg nights from getting out of trouble all the time. As they fly they can still kinda do what they want but at least you will need a small amount more skill to still make them wreck all the things.

[Griffon Prince]

Relatively speaking, our mages are actually better off from this, at least for ONE spell per turn, because of Lileath's blessing.

Did a quick maths of casting a level 9+ spell. Assumes a level 4 caster and dispeller.

Normal Level 4: 83% chance to cast, 35% chance it's dispelled = 53% total chance to cast
With change: 72% chance to cast, 30% chance to dispel = 50% total chance to cast

High Elf Lvl 4: 97% chance to cast, 35% chance to dispell = 63% total chance to cast
With change: 92% chance to cast, 30% chance to dispel = 65% total chance

But also... this is a super minor tweak frankly, and kinda dumb to put in (I think it doesn't really fix anything and agree it messes with points costings)

Thank you once again to the awesome Jedra for coming through with the stats we need

So knowing all this, would it stand to reason that we could see an increase in double archmage lists?

[Jedra]

I don't *really* think it's a big enough difference to shift anything - if we assume you manage 12 casting attempts per level 4 in game (and all in dispell range), then right now we're getting 1 extra success and with the change it's not quite 2 extra...

I hope this one isn't real. I think it solves nothing and just makes points values inflated if they aren't also fixed.

[Axiem]

So, for the longest time I've been refusing to comment on this even though I knew it was coming, as it was a hot potato that I know got people in trouble for even alluding to. But since even WHW employees are talking about it, I feel ok confirming it now.

As rumoured, there's a ruleset review in the Works; I hear it should land this Summer (different timelines have been suggested by different sources, if I were to make a bet, I'd say July or thereabouts, roughly after Cathay releases). For simplicity, I've been internally calling this TOW 1.5. **It's not a new edition**, and it will not invalidate current books. It will however change certain things about the current game. Expect the current meta to blow up in smithereens, but if you weren't chasing it, you'll probably be happy. It might come in the form of a book, but I have my reservations about that for reasons I won't expand on. I also don't know if this will be included in the rumoured Matched Play book. It could, but it also could be separate. My current expectation is that it'll be a PDF.

So, what can you expect? I don't want to go into heavy detail, but in general terms, if you feel something is too good, there's a good chance that it's been changed or had its points cost adjusted; these won't be sweeping, but targeted. **Don't expect massive changes**. Aside from that, there are a few core rules that may have been adjusted, to wit:

- Buffs to infantry that make them better in terms of combat and CR, especially in larger blocks. It's not clear if Monstrous Infantry is included in this, gut feeling says no.
- Adjustments to the magic system, to reduce the disparity between Hero and Lord level casters.
- Nerfs or adjustments to Vortices.
- Adjustments to reduce the dominance of mounted lords.
- Possibly adjustments to Skirmishers and Linehammer.

This is all I'm comfortable revealing for now, and I must stress this again. **Many Ungor spies died to bring us this information, so don't probe for more.**

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Serathail]

The "larger blocks" comment makes me slightly worried for our infantry due to their prohibitive cost, especially since half the other changes already seem rough for HE, at least from a competitive PoV.

It does sound like an improvement for the edition overall though and maybe it finally makes spearmen playable again, so I'm optimistic.

[Csjarrat]

I'll put a fiver on it just breaking slightly different things after launch lol

[Prince of Spires]

It's hard to say how this will play out for High Elves. Since we're an infantry based army, it might make more of our stuff better and worth taking. Could very well be that all our infantry units are buffed and we end up with a top tier army. On the other hand, our tournament lists currently rely on mounted lords, skirmishers, and to some degree magic. If those are nerfed, then it may very well be that we simply don't have any options.

Overall, I'm positive that GW is actively trying to improve the game. It shows a long-term commitment to the game instead of only a short term nostalgia based money grab. Even if the changes aren't good for HE, at least they're putting in the effort. That's a net-positive.

I'll put a fiver on it just breaking slightly different things after launch lol

That's pretty much a given, considering it's GW. Also, I expect they'll either contradict some earlier rules / FAQ's and will need to put out more FAQ's just to explain what they meant...

[Anduil of Elithis]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en- ... of-legend/

The article for the Matched Play Guide confirms the balance update coming soon.

[Axiem]

"TMP wholly within, no stomps on challenges in units, no swift stride if you fly, and turn off fly items apply to units within 24”, close and open order infantry fight in two ranks, max unit size 40 for all units. Is what I heard"

I want to stress: this is not the same source that has been providing the highly accurate information. Seems too reasonable for it to be correct, IMO!

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Jedra]

It's hard to say how this will play out for High Elves. Since we're an infantry based army, it might make more of our stuff better and worth taking. Could very well be that all our infantry units are buffed and we end up with a top tier army.

I do think if infantry got a free rank of supporting attacks and allow 1 (or 2?) more ranks for Rank Bonus, they'd be pretty strong. Assuming the 2nd rank is supporting attacks NOT that the fighting rank is two ranks deep, that would make receiving a charge less terrible (more attacks back, more rank bonus to provide a buffer) - and as our infantry are all A1 it's basically a 2-3x increase in damage. It would also (assuming you can make them on a charge, but why wouldn't you) means that Spears, PG and LSG become less terrible on the charge which is pretty critical given the FBIGO dynamic, and would allow them to make better use of being high movement infantry.

I think we can be certain infantry are going to get (at least relatively) better, but details matter... I guess we need to just wait and see!

[Prince of Spires]

If all our infantry units effectively get an extra attack, then that's definitely a boost. Not sure if it's enough. But at least if points don't change, then they get a lot more powerful.

The others look odly specific and I'm not sure they matter all that much. Max unit size of 40 I'm not sure makes a huge difference either way and feels fairly arbitrary. I'm not sure stomps matter all that much in many challenges.

The "no-fly" items only working within a certain range at least makes them slightly more bearable. Though 24'' is still an awful lot. It does explain why GW is including a second one in an army list.

[Ielthan]

If the extra rank thing is true, it's a bit of a mixed bag for us. Increases the offensive output of our infantry, but also means we are more likely to take hits back when fighting opposition infantry, and our units other than maybe dragon princes aren't very killy to begin with. If the scenarios have objectives based around core units (likely given it was a feature of the scenarios they released with high elves) it may be an overall nerf tbh as other armies can benefit from this much more (e.g. black orcs, grave guard, even chaos warriors). Phoenix guard fighting in 3 ranks again could be good though being a bit tougher, and possibly T4 too. Bit of a disaster for white lions who wouldn't get the buff, and become even worse lol. Definitely a buff for swordmasters, though running the numbers I'm pretty convinced phoenix guard are just better point for point. Lion guard get it....but are rare in a bad army competing against sisters of avelorn, and would still need to get the charge to not die in swathes first.

If the close order buff extends to cavalry it's a big buff for silver helms. I don't think Seaguard or spearmen really gain much from it as ultimately they're still S3 AP - attacks.

[Houdini]

Based on the rumour for Infantry it still doesn’t actually fix the issue as to why infantry well….suck! It is actually the lack of mobility and charge range versus Cav and Monsters. If you have a Death Star style infantry unit in the current game format, then good players simply avoid it. If the infantry unit has more attacks in the new format, then the same thing will happen. If the game does become more infantry vs infantry then that is good for us, as they’re looking at limiting units to max 40 (which doesn’t affect us but affects a lot of the deathstars out there).
I see the changes as a competitive nerf for us since our best competitive unit in the game is the Star Dragon. With the nerfs to the Star Dragon it makes it increasingly more difficult for us to apply pressure to the opponent.
Bretts get a huge boost across the board from these changes.

[Axiem]

FAQ leaked changes to old world


Close Order bonus for unit strength 10+ only
Only infantry and cavalry can get a 2+ armour save
Supporting attacks can only be made within your base movement
Impetuous is now based on leadership
Chaos Dragon is now Impetuous
Empire State Troops get Warband
Cast/Dispel bonuses are capped at wizard level +1 (so no stacking Mortis engines)
Poison now +1 to wound not auto wound
Pillar of fire now random move
TMP wholly within
Ogre Blade now 75pts
Chaos regen items now Cav+Infantry only
Royal Pegasus +10pts
Pegasus Knights +4pts
Skirmishers can only charge if over half the unit can draw line of sight to the target
Arcane urgency now one less to cast at 9+
Stupidity prevents casting and shooting
Skin wolf buffs don't affect characters
Vortexes are now dispelled from the vortex not the wizard
Impact hits happen before challenges are declared
Trollhammer Torpedo is now Cumbersome and S5
Trolls get motley crew
Flails get armour bane (1) on the charge
Halberds are AP +2 on the charge
infantry get +1 combat res if they outnumber their opponent
Infantry/Heavy infantry only, +1 armour in melee if using hand weapon + shield up to max 3+

(Some guy replied to a post in Facebook containing this list, that there are other more interesting changes missing in it. So... I can wait for gw to publish it. Seems like the designers know what they are doing)

Provided with context from the discord:

Ok, since people will keep asking, I'm gonna post this little bit of commentary and pin it. The list matches some stuff I have heard floated around, but not necessarily 100%, match all the details or has the same information (some things may be missing, some things may be new, some may be different). There's been a bunch of versions of 1.5 out there, and so there's a lot of conflicting information. To me, it looks like a summary of the changes of one version, but that's just my gut feeling. This is also why I do not want to comment on any specifics of it, in terms of wording, whether one bit or another is true, etc. You'll have to wait till it's out. And that's all I will say on the matter.

These are two different posters. The second is the reliable source for all the information I've posted here and who has urged a dash of salt to be taken with the list. Still, confirmation of at least some/major details is interesting.


Also, and separately and from a third source:

I can provide a tasty rumour. Now things might have changed a bit, and I don't have specific timeline now as lots has shuffled around (coming out quicker than originally thought) but there will be..."dlc" for factions that are already released. "Mini-ajs" if you will. Can't say specifics or what factions and in what order...but yea.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[anorexia]

Poison now +1 to wound not auto wound

Vortexes are now dispelled from the vortex not the wizard

Pillar of fire now random move

what a day, what a wonderfull day....

great news @Axiem. tyvm

[Prince of Spires]

That's an interesting, and dare I say it, sensible looking list. It doesn't change all that much in the grand scheme of things I think. Mainly move some details.

Though it does remove a point of combat resolution from most single models (since few of them have 10 wounds or US 10). Which makes big ridden monsters more vulnerable to challenges, as it caps your CR at 6 pretty much. Unless you're on a chariot, since impact hits are now counted outside the challenge. WLC Prince FTW!

An interesting one is the skirmishers can only charge if over half the unit can draw line of sight to the target. It pretty much limits larger Skirmish units to only be able to charge straight ahead (or at large targets). As soon as you're in 2 "ranks", it's very hard to both maintain cohesion and for more than half your unit to see a target, since the bases of the other models in the unit block LOS.

[Feather Edge]

That's an interesting, and dare I say it, sensible looking list. It doesn't change all that much in the grand scheme of things I think. Mainly move some details.

Though it does remove a point of combat resolution from most single models (since few of them have 10 wounds or US 10). Which makes big ridden monsters more vulnerable to challenges, as it caps your CR at 6 pretty much. Unless you're on a chariot, since impact hits are now counted outside the challenge. WLC Prince FTW!

An interesting one is the skirmishers can only charge if over half the unit can draw line of sight to the target. It pretty much limits larger Skirmish units to only be able to charge straight ahead (or at large targets). As soon as you're in 2 "ranks", it's very hard to both maintain cohesion and for more than half your unit to see a target, since the bases of the other models in the unit block LOS.

A circlet of Atrazar pushes a 9 wound dragon to 10, and Close Order. Just sayin..

[Feather Edge]

If sources are correct, Impetuous becomes a straight Ld test which makes Dragon Princes much more reliable, and a themed Caledor List a fantastic thing. Armoured Mages in Cav units and a Dragon Mage now show restraint.
I think these apparent changes are great for Caledor!

[Jedra]

If sources are correct, Impetuous becomes a straight Ld test which makes Dragon Princes much more reliable, and a themed Caledor List a fantastic thing. Armoured Mages in Cav units and a Dragon Mage now show restraint.
I think these apparent changes are great for Caledor!

Yeah it makes Blood of Caledor honour very good - particularly for nobles that struggle to fit ward saves in magic item allowance and get pushed up to bring 2+/5+ to hit/be hit against W3 (for 9pts if you subtract the free plate... bargain)

[Prince of Spires]

Though it does remove a point of combat resolution from most single models (since few of them have 10 wounds or US 10). Which makes big ridden monsters more vulnerable to challenges, as it caps your CR at 6 pretty much. Unless you're on a chariot, since impact hits are now counted outside the challenge. WLC Prince FTW!

A circlet of Atrazar pushes a 9 wound dragon to 10, and Close Order. Just sayin..

Yes, and the Chaos Dragon is another which gets 10 wounds. Most single models... Though I doubt the circlet is worth it just for that. It's a 55pts item which only gives you 1 wound (and +1CR in this case) when on a dragon, which really limits your options in terms of what to bring. No Armour of Caledor + Seed of Rebirth, or Dragon Helm + Seed of Rebirth + Opal Amulet, no big magic weapon (especially combined with some protection).

If sources are correct, Impetuous becomes a straight Ld test which makes Dragon Princes much more reliable, and a themed Caledor List a fantastic thing. Armoured Mages in Cav units and a Dragon Mage now show restraint.
I think these apparent changes are great for Caledor!

Yeah it makes Blood of Caledor honour very good - particularly for nobles that struggle to fit ward saves in magic item allowance and get pushed up to bring 2+/5+ to hit/be hit against W3 (for 9pts if you subtract the free plate... bargain)

Agreed. I think I like this change, though it might swing it too far the other way. Basically going from only take it if you want to charge stuff to a mild nuisance. It's now worth it on all mounted princes and most nobles, and it might actually make a dragon mage playable. Free full plate and +1WS and a 6+ ward is definitely nice for only 15pts. Not much stuff is WS8 in the game (I can't find any model with base WS8, though I probably missed one somewhere...), and plenty of stuff is WS3.

Not sure it's a completely fair change across the board though. It actually makes things worse if you're a LD5 goblin, but a lot better if you're a LD9 Dragon Prince (or LD10 Prince on Dragon). You could argue that it makes sense from a conceptual point of view, but I'm not sure it makes stuff more playable everywhere in the same way. Though it might not change much for the goblin player, since they currently probably assume all their stuff will charge all the time anyway.

[Ramesesis]

I must say that if all is correct it looks somewhat positive, but... Now, being a true infantry-head, most of all spear infantry (because serried ranks of spears look soooo good) I man not totally enamoured with hand weapon + shield being boosted but spears getting the finger, again.

Throughout history, spear armed infantry has been the bulk of most infantry. The roman legions were an oddity and they did use their pilas as spears on several occasions because they needed to.
It is not simply that spears are cheap and easy to use, like some people claim. They are, but they were used by both militas and professionals for thousands of years.
Used together they are a tremendous force multiplier.

The power of a well delivered spearthrust is huge. It can pierce armour easier than most ancient weapons. The force concentrared in the speartip is not to be scoffed at.
And charging into spears just boost that. And if your armour stops the point you might still get internal injuries by the blunt force alone!

Spears should at the very least get a str bonus and AP bonus being charged. Period. But GW would never dare that.

And as for fighting monsters, a spear is by far your best option. The spear was the primary weapon when going after bears and wild boars. Not silly swords.
Have some guts and dare go against conventional fantasy themes for once.

So we will see sword and board infantry become the go to choice. People will still mock my spearelves and talk about maths.

The funny thing is the wood elves at least get AP1 for their spears. It is not that big but at least its something.

[Pash]

I must say that if all is correct it looks somewhat positive, but... Now, being a true infantry-head, most of all spear infantry (because serried ranks of spears look soooo good) I man not totally enamoured with hand weapon + shield being boosted but spears getting the finger, again.

Throughout history, spear armed infantry has been the bulk of most infantry. The roman legions were an oddity and they did use their pilas as spears on several occasions because they needed to.
It is not simply that spears are cheap and easy to use, like some people claim. They are, but they were used by both militas and professionals for thousands of years.
Used together they are a tremendous force multiplier.

The power of a well delivered spearthrust is huge. It can pierce armour easier than most ancient weapons. The force concentrared in the speartip is not to be scoffed at.
And charging into spears just boost that. And if your armour stops the point you might still get internal injuries by the blunt force alone!

Spears should at the very least get a str bonus and AP bonus being charged. Period. But GW would never dare that.

And as for fighting monsters, a spear is by far your best option. The spear was the primary weapon when going after bears and wild boars. Not silly swords.
Have some guts and dare go against conventional fantasy themes for once.

So we will see sword and board infantry become the go to choice. People will still mock my spearelves and talk about maths.

The funny thing is the wood elves at least get AP1 for their spears. It is not that big but at least its something.

This is a very good point and not one that's considered very often. I wonder if an accurate representation of this might be giving spears +2S AP-1 (AB1) if charged. That could represent that quite well, I think. Not going to happen, of course but would at least be an accurate representation of a spearwall effectiveness and how much hesitation there'd be to charge into one.