2000pts Competitive List Attempt

[Serathail]

I'm attempting to make a slightly more competitive list with the models I've got & under the usual local tournament rules* and looking for some feedback on the first draft.
*Simplified: 400pt cap on flying characters with any honours/magic items, 500ish cap on units, max. 3 flying units (eagles count as half a unit).

So the Nr.1 issue I've noticed in the past was the lack of ways to deal with tough/armoured targets with the stardragon being more or less shadowbanned, which allowed my opponents to get way too aggressive way to quickly.
The skycutter prince would be my answer to that, together with the 4 BTs and some sisters to punch through on 6s (& add magic damage against any demonic/ethereal targets).
I also had a version with a Griffon Prince (with either ogre blade or maybe star lance) + the typical white sword archmage, but I personally think I prefer the versatility of this combination more, especially since it allows me to also fit in that combat res bundle of a noble.

The archmage is mostly designed to fix issue Nr.2 I usually run into, which is being outmagic'd both offensively and defensively (infernal puppet and TK being the biggest culprits), while also synergizing well with the rest of the army I think. Unfortunately I didn't have any points left for the RRoR, but he's most likely going to be in enemy dispell range anyway, at which point the ring becomes not that amazing.

The one thing I'm really on the fence about is the silverhelms, especially with the choice between no RoF or only 6 models... I feel like I do need another unit that hits at least reasonably hard, but they really aren't amazing. I'd swap them for archer darts, but I do prefer the great eagles as redirectors since they can double up as a reasonable threat still.

Anyway, looking forward to any feedback you might have.

++ Characters [958 pts] ++
Prince [353 pts]
(Hand weapon, Warbow, Full plate armour, Shield, General, Lothern Skycutter [Eagle-Eye Bolt Thrower], The White Sword, Dragon Helm, Seed of Rebirth, Sea Guard)

Noble [345 pts]
(Hand weapon, Lance, Full plate armour, Battle Standard Bearer [Battle Banner], Griffon, Seed of Rebirth, Enchanted Shield, Opal Amulet, Pure of Heart)

Archmage [260 pts]
(Warbow, Level 4 Wizard, On foot, Power Scroll, Silvery Wand, Sigil of Asuryan, Sea Guard, Elementalism)

++ Core Units [555 pts] ++
26 Lothern Sea Guard [369 pts]
(Hand weapons, Thrusting spears, Warbows, Light armour, Shields, Sea Master (champion), Standard bearer [Razor Standard], Musician)

7 Silver Helms [186 pts]
(Hand weapons, Lances, Hand weapons (Hooves), Heavy armour, Barding, Shields, High Helm (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Rare Units [487 pts] ++
10 Sisters of Avelorn [207 pts]
(Bows of Avelorn, Light armour, High Sister [Bow of the Seafarer])

Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts]

Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts]

Great Eagle [60 pts]

Great Eagle [60 pts]

---

[Axiem]

Question: when is the tourney? The beastmen AJ just leaked and confirmed existence of second falcon horn, meaning two popular armies will have a way to completely neutralize the Skycutter Prince.

The normal approach is to take Sisters in Core to be competitive against armor, with double archmage. Chracian list looks to be doing pretty well as well.

Second question: what are your model constraints?

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Serathail]

Question: when is the tourney? The beastmen AJ just leaked and confirmed existence of second falcon horn, meaning two popular armies will have a way to completely neutralize the Skycutter Prince.

The normal approach is to take Sisters in Core to be competitive against armor, with double archmage. Chracian list looks to be doing pretty well as well.

Second question: what are your model constraints?

Kind regards,

Axiem

Late summer, and the restrictions might still shift, but I'm mainly trying to determine what I should finish painting with the limited time I have available until then.

Very solid point on the falcon horn Nr.2... not an item I thought they'd double down on, but here we are. On the bright side, I think there's only a single BM player in my area (2*BRT though). I could probably do a chracian army, but I don't have nearly as much experience with them as I do with Sea Guard lists, so I aimed for the latter. Maybe I'll draft something up for chrace later.

As for the models, I have, I've attached a table (including their respective weighted winrates from my own 35ish games as a metric of how well I tend to do with them. There's some bias though, especially for the newer units where I've only played 1-2 games with them (with the exception of the griffon mount, that one actually just won me some 7 games in a row)).
Win rate Unit Number
55% Prince Yes
49% Archmage Yes
48% Noble Yes
53% Mage Yes
50% Dragon Mage Yes
50% Handmaiden 1
42% Stormweaver Yes
45% Spearmen 36
67% White Lions 40
48% Swordmasters 50
62% Phoenix Guard 23
56% Archers 40
60% Lothern Sea Guard 26
41% Shadow Warriors 10
63% Sisters of Avelorn 10
58% Ship's Company See Archers/Spearmen
25% Woodsmen See White Lions
25% Lion Guard See White Lions
44% Ellyrian Reavers 10
50% Silver Helms 21
34% Dragon Princes 15
25% Warlions 4
46% Tiranoc Chariot 2
64% Lion Chariot of Chrace 2
65% Lothern Skycutter 1
75% Great Eagle 2
82% Griffon 1
0% Flamespyre Phoenix 1
50% Frostheart Phoenix See Flamespyre
35% Sundragon 2
50% Moondragon See Sundragon
50% Stardragon See Sundragon
68% Eagleclaw Bolt Thrower See Sundragon

50% Battle Magic
63% Elementalism
43% High Magic
9% Illusion
25% Dark Magic

[Serathail]

So for a chracian list I would intuitively create something like this as a baseline, given the models I have.

I am not 100% sure about the character composition right now. These are the options I'm mainly considering right now:
- White Sword Prince on a WL Chariot + Illusion Archmage on a WL Chariot (both stripped down to only 4+5+++ though)
- White Sword Prince on a WL Chariot + High Magic Archmage for the big Woodsmen unit + Banner upgrade on the Noble / another cheap unit.
- Double Archmage (one High to join the big unit, one elementalism to linger around a smaller one) + Banner upgrade on the Noble / another cheap unit.
- Pretty much any of the above but with Korhil on a Chariot instead of a prince, or squeezing him in besides the archmages. I cannot properly judge him yet though, he definitely seems playable, but is he good enough to strip down on other characters' items?

++ Characters [997 pts] ++
Korhil Lionmane [280 pts]
(Hand weapon, Chayal, Heavy armour, The Pelt of Charandis, General, Chieftain's Chariot)

Archmage [405 pts]
(Chracian great blade, Level 4 Wizard, Lion Chariot of Chrace, Seed of Rebirth, Talisman of Protection, Power Scroll, Silvery Wand, Chracian Hunter, Illusion)

Noble [312 pts]
(Hand weapon, Great weapon, Full plate armour, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer [War Banner], Griffon, Dragon Helm, Opal Amulet, Seed of Rebirth, Pure of Heart)

++ Core Units [661 pts] ++
14 Chracian Woodsmen [231 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Vanguard, Chracian Captain (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

14 Chracian Woodsmen [231 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Scouts, Chracian Captain (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

12 Chracian Woodsmen [199 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Ambushers, Chracian Captain (champion))

++ Special Units [72 pts] ++
2 War Lions [36 pts]
(Hand weapons (Claws and fangs))

2 War Lions [36 pts]
(Hand weapons (Claws and fangs))

++ Rare Units [268 pts] ++
10 Sisters of Avelorn [187 pts]
(Bows of Avelorn, Light armour, High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin])

5 Shadow Warriors [81 pts]
(Longbows, Light armour, Chariot Runners, Shadow Walker)
---

[Feather Edge]

So for a chracian list I would intuitively create something like this as a baseline, given the models I have.

I am absolutely not sure what to do with the remaining characters though. These are the options I'm mainly considering right now:
- White Sword Prince on a WL Chariot + Illusion Archmage on a WL Chariot (both stripped down to only 4+5+++ though)
- White Sword Prince on a WL Chariot + High Magic Archmage for the big Woodsmen unit + Banner upgrade on the Noble / another cheap unit.
- Double Archmage (one High to join the big unit, one elementalism to linger around a smaller one) + Banner upgrade on the Noble / another cheap unit.
- Pretty much any of the above but with Korhil on a Chariot instead of a prince, or squeezing him in besides the archmages. I cannot properly judge him yet though, he definitely seems playable, but is he good enough to strip down on other characters' items?

[1206/2000]
++ Characters [287 pts] ++
Noble [287 pts]
(Hand weapon, Lance, Full plate armour, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer, Griffon, Dragon Helm, Opal Amulet, Seed of Rebirth, Pure of Heart)

++ Core Units [660 pts] ++
21 Chracian Woodsmen [336 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Vanguard, Chracian Captain (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

10 Chracian Woodsmen [157 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Vanguard, Chracian Captain (champion))

10 Chracian Woodsmen [167 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Ambushers, Chracian Captain (champion))

++ Special Units [72 pts] ++
2 War Lions [36 pts]
(Hand weapons (Claws and fangs))

2 War Lions [36 pts]
(Hand weapons (Claws and fangs))

++ Rare Units [187 pts] ++
10 Sisters of Avelorn [187 pts]
(Bows of Avelorn, Light armour, High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin])

---

I haven’t played many games in Old World but all my experiences have been with various Chracian lists.
I think the key is building around the terrain piece which you place after choosing table-sides.
This has a game-changing aspect, if deployment goes as you intend.
In respect of which, chariot deployment and charging lanes offer board control defensively, perhaps limit offensive options.

21 Woodsmen units are risky, due to Coherence. I have used them as ambushers and whilst paying the points for ambush, chosen also to deploy as normal. Alongside sisters they throw out a decent shooting phase.

War lions are fantastic! Cheapest re-director we have and if they survive, can tie up a crucial opposing dispel phase. Pairs is good.

I haven’t tried a double-archmage list yet, so I’d look forward to hearing your further thoughts on that.

If the goal is to break a unit on the first round, using Korhil in a chariot, or indeed a monster-slaying prince - and for the purpose of keeping them unharmed - I would recommend not only using the griffon noble in support, but a third damage dealer as well. Impact hits can fail, and great-weapon mechanics leave a lot to the dice. Standards in Vanguarding Woodsmen might help CR. I dunno, it also gives points away.

And a thought about ruby ring.
2+ Podcast made the point that magic missiles in later stages of the game can finish units off and it made me wonder if putting one in five-strong sisters, with Ambush could be useful.

[Serathail]

I joined another event taking place in only two weeks (1500pts this time) and I think there's some potential for me to try a pretty silly chracian warhost:

(Most essential Comp for those who care:
- No permanent stacked Ward + Regen, 8+ wound models loose half their magic item allowance. Puts TK and Chaos Lords into the same boat as everyone else for once.
- Difficult terrain = dangerous terrain for heavy cav & monsters, so chrace even gets a slight buff
- 40% character cap)

++ Characters [482 pts] ++
Prince [482 pts]
(Hand weapon, Great weapon, Full plate armour, Shield, General, Star Dragon, Seed of Rebirth, Opal Amulet, Dragon Helm, Pure of Heart)

++ Core Units [573 pts] ++
12 Chracian Woodsmen [187 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Scouts, Chracian Captain (champion))

12 Chracian Woodsmen [199 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Ambushers, Chracian Captain (champion))

12 Chracian Woodsmen [187 pts]
(Hand weapons, Chracian great blades, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Vanguard, Chracian Captain (champion))

++ Rare Units [445 pts] ++
Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts]

Great Eagle [60 pts]

Great Eagle [60 pts]

14 Sisters of Avelorn [245 pts]
(Bows of Avelorn, Light armour, Stubborn, Ambushers, High Sister)

---

Core idea of the list: Give any aggressive army no good/valuable (initial) targets except for the one they probably can't kill, and outskirmish or rush more balanced/defensive lists. Pretty much half the army can deploy in awkward spots for the opponent after his deployment, and do so much more reliably with the +1/-1 to ambushing.
Also offer the dilemma of either deploying wide vs scouts/ambushers but leaving individual units rather unsupported vs the dragon, or turtle up and suffer the surround.

Obvious issue is the lack of a mage, but the 40% cap keeps me from having both the prince & the Lv4, and bothering with a Lv2 Stormweaver in such a mobile list seems pointless. An archmage on a stardragon would have been an option, but I think she would need to have more magic items to surive the occasional sticky situation.
On the bright side I don't think it's too much of a problem, and at least like this all the infernal puppets, spellbreaking runes and dispell runes are also wasted against me.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

How many wounds is a Duke on Royal Pegasus? Why does nobody ever comp the crazy good Bret stuff? Our dragon lords lose half their magic budget, and Bret Lords have an even better time on the board. They lose nothing. I suspect the folks writing these comps are Bretonnian spies.

[Prince of Spires]

How many wounds is a Duke on Royal Pegasus? Why does nobody ever comp the crazy good Bret stuff? Our dragon lords lose half their magic budget, and Bret Lords have an even better time on the board. They lose nothing. I suspect the folks writing these comps are Bretonnian spies.

I think it's because they are crazy good in a different way compared to big ridden monsters. Also, since they have a permanent 6+ ward, they can't also bring a regen save in the comp pack, which is something at least. But to comp them, you must make army specific comp, which this pack stays away from. And of course, perhaps this region just doesn't have many competitive Bret players.

I do like the comp rules overall. They're not too heavy and seem to limit the worst things you run into at 1500pts...

As for the list, I like it. The sad thing perhaps is that it makes me wonder if there's a reason to take regular White Lions anymore in a Chracian Warhost...

Personally I think I would probably drop the Bolt Thrower and eagles, and bring War Lions and Lion Guard instead. War Lions because they're thematic, and Lion Guard because I'd be curious to see how they perform. They're a nice tarpit for any solo character they can get into combat with, since each model can challenge. And they hit pretty hard and add some nice combat power to the list. But I haven't tried them yet, so it may very well be they're still not worth the points.

[Serathail]

How many wounds is a Duke on Royal Pegasus? Why does nobody ever comp the crazy good Bret stuff? Our dragon lords lose half their magic budget, and Bret Lords have an even better time on the board. They lose nothing. I suspect the folks writing these comps are Bretonnian spies.

I think it's because they are crazy good in a different way compared to big ridden monsters. Also, since they have a permanent 6+ ward, they can't also bring a regen save in the comp pack, which is something at least. But to comp them, you must make army specific comp, which this pack stays away from. And of course, perhaps this region just doesn't have many competitive Bret players.

I do like the comp rules overall. They're not too heavy and seem to limit the worst things you run into at 1500pts...

As for the list, I like it. The sad thing perhaps is that it makes me wonder if there's a reason to take regular White Lions anymore in a Chracian Warhost...

Personally I think I would probably drop the Bolt Thrower and eagles, and bring War Lions and Lion Guard instead. War Lions because they're thematic, and Lion Guard because I'd be curious to see how they perform. They're a nice tarpit for any solo character they can get into combat with, since each model can challenge. And they hit pretty hard and add some nice combat power to the list. But I haven't tried them yet, so it may very well be they're still not worth the points.

I'd drop the BT and Eagles if I could get two pairs of Warlions as redirectors, but they are limited to 1 per 1k and one unit of 4 seems to easy to kill at range for their price and too few to seriously threaten most things.
Meanwhile the BT can tank some shooting and threaten flank shots against units turning to engage ambushers/scouts on the flanks.

Lion guard I think are just too expensive to fit the points denial & versatility of the list.
And they aren't great evem vs Characters since they didn't even get the King's Guard special rule, they have Champions of Chrace, which only allows them to accept, but not issue challenges. Which is completely useless, because whenever you'd want to get into a challenge with one, your opponent is simply not going to offer one. It's nice to stop your own characters from getting challenged out, but that's about it.

Imho they are arguably even too expensive for a WbW Deathstar, the White Lions do that better, especially as core.

[Prince of Spires]

I'd drop the BT and Eagles if I could get two pairs of Warlions as redirectors, but they are limited to 1 per 1k and one unit of 4 seems to easy to kill at range for their price and too few to seriously threaten most things.

Forgot the silly, 1 per 1k pts restriction on the Lions... Sorry, you're of course correct.

And they aren't great evem vs Characters since they didn't even get the King's Guard special rule, they have Champions of Chrace, which only allows them to accept, but not issue challenges. Which is completely useless, because whenever you'd want to get into a challenge with one, your opponent is simply not going to offer one. It's nice to stop your own characters from getting challenged out, but that's about it.

Another one of those I'd remembered it as all of them can challenge. Only being able to accept challenges is useless. If you're really that worried about challenges, you could just bring a unit champ. And it's not even that much of a downside to get your infantry character in a challenge, since you at least don't waste attacks because of the overkill limit...

[Serathail]

No worries, this edition has a lot to keep track of.
I also forgot War Lions (these ones at least) have cleaving blow, so that actually makes them a respectable enough threat for enemy heavy cav and I've included some in the current iteration to take some pressure off the skirmishers.

I am considering a list with an archmage after all, because Vortexes / Magic Missiles and/or illusion with no dispells probably counter the skirmishers & prince respectively a bit too hard. Ideally I get Oaken Shield +2 other spells + Hammerhand swapped from the worst rolled spell.
High magic is also tempting just for WbW (+Corporeal Unmaking, Tempest & FoK), but without Silvery Wand / Lore Familiar it's probably foolish to gamble on getting those.
Combatwise Prince & Archmage should be roughly equivalent and having access to the versatility granted by spells is great, but the loss of Ld10 (especially without a BSB) worries me quite a bit. Still, I think this version is probably better than the previous iteration, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter.

V5 Archmage [1500 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, High Elf Realms, The Chracian Warhost

Archmage, Level 4 Wizard, General, Star Dragon, Opal Amulet, Seed of Rebirth, Earthing Rod, Pure of Heart, Battle Magic - 520
12 Chracian Woodsmen, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Scouts, Chracian Captain (champion) - 187
12 Chracian Woodsmen, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Ambushers, Chracian Captain (champion) - 199
12 Chracian Woodsmen, Heavy armour, Warbows, Lion Cloak, Vanguard, Chracian Captain (champion) - 187
4 War Lions - 72
Great Eagle - 60
Great Eagle - 60
13 Sisters of Avelorn, Ambushers, High Sister - 215
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