Wood Elf Leaks

[Axiem]

So, the WE AJ:
I was expecting worse upon hearing about it, but it's not particularly inspired. I am expecting a lot of whining and complaining.
The Talsyn AoI is really bland, and not particularly good from a competitive standpoint either. It's meant to be an infantry/EG centered force.
The Orion one is decent, but also not very inspired. It's a very aggressive, almost all cavalry army.
Orion is very beefy but expensive. I think it's appropriate to represent who he is.
The new units are whatever. The best one is the beasts, IMO.
The kindreds are quite good
The new lore is very good. It's a full lore, not a signature.
The magic items are a very mixed bag. A couple of them are very good, the rest are a big meh, pretty much unusable with almost nothing in between.

I feel like this AJ is going to rank fairly low in terms of how beloved it is, unless the lore is somehow amazing. It's not the competitive shot in the arm that other armies have got, and the new options also don't add a lot of different things.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Jedra]

Confirmed: GW designers have the "Hatred: All Elves" special rule

[Ielthan]

Confirmed: GW designers have the "Hatred: All Elves" special rule

Bring back Matt Ward

[Prince of Spires]

Sounds about on par with our own AJ. One bland army that doesn't really add anything and is hard to play, and one slightly less bland army that can be decent if you min-max and average if you want to create a normal army.

It feels a bit like GW designers aren't sure what to do with elves and how to make them fun and distinct. With T3 infantry based lists, there's a very thin line between gets stomped into the ground and being so strong no one can actually hit you. And it feels like GW is leaning towards the former instead of the latter.

Though it must be noted that most magic items tend to be either amazing or meh, especially army specific ones. Just look at our GA list magic items. There are a handful that are in pretty much all lists, a few that show up occasionally to perform a specific role, and the rest just never gets used. And this seems to be pretty common across armies. With the extra remark that this is even more the case for elite armies. If you can bring half a dozen goblin bosses, then you're going to run out of great items at some point and you'll have to make do with average ones.

If WE do get a full new lore that's completely their own, instead of just access to a new lore, then it sucks to be HE, that's for sure.

[Serathail]

It feels a bit like GW designers aren't sure what to do with elves and how to make them fun and distinct. With T3 infantry based lists, there's a very thin line between gets stomped into the ground and being so strong no one can actually hit you. And it feels like GW is leaning towards the former instead of the latter.

I agree with the sentiment, though I'd change it slightly to "There's a thin line between getting stomped into the ground and being frustrating to fight", and GW seems very afraid of the latter.
Because getting half your front rank beaten up before you even swing on the charge? Feels kinda bad. Getting outmaneuvered and out-charge-range'd due to higher movement characteristics? Feels kinda bad. Getting obliterated and restricted by magic? Feels kinda bad.
I think you can kind of see the effects of all of those in the FoG book (Martial Prowess is so forgettable I didn't have it in the initial draft of this list, initiative of most units only ever matters vs I3, or arguably I2. Our heavy cav lost its M9, our mages are decent but get outclassed by the casters of ca. 4 other factions off the top of my head and about half of the elven honours just lack any impact) and even see in the arcane journal imho (Getting hit by 3 full ranks of spears after a S&S at any distance sounds like it could be really frustrating for some people, better cap that banner at half a rank and price it at 55pts. Having the chieftain or Korhil be able to mount a full fletched lion chariot might be too annoying to kill, better remove a chariotier, a wound and throw in AB1 on the lions as a consolation prize)
So i.e. each distinct feature gets distilled down to the point, where it has little to no effect in the game.

I really hope for our forest-dwelling brethren that their AJ has at least some meaningful impact and the writers weren't too afraid of giving them something with a bit of punch. A unique lore of magic, not even just signatures, does sound like something at least.

[Ramesesis]

I think, just think, that GW is really not aiming the Arcane Journals towards competitive play. That is more the realm of the Grand armies.

And as far as I am any judge, most players seem to feel their Arcane Journal is the worst. There are exceptions, but I know Empire players feel they got the worst of them all and say the Bret book got it all.

Now, I am not a "competitive player" as such. But I sure try to win. However, I am very much a fan of historical boardgames and love when I get the chance to fight historical battles.
And historical battles are basically scenarios. Nothing is ever symmetric, nothing is ever balanced. A general who looks for "a fair fight" is a dead general.
Hence I love more narrative games very the focus is "do the best you can with what you got". I sometImes love to play the weaker or historically losing side because you have more fun.
And sometimes you win and feel you really achieved something. Like when my persians annihilated Alexander the Great at Gaugamela.
And if the game system is good you feel you get a better understanding of history.

And as far as I can tell the Meta seem to be that as long as your list can bring a ton of big baddies and magic it is good.
But to me that makes The Old World not a wargame. Yes, kill em all might feel like a wargame but it is not.
The narrative approach is to me closer to real wargames.
Anyway, it is interesting that one WE army seem centered on the Ethernal guard. I love my spears and my infantry. That is were the heart of war is.

And like I said, players of every faction seem to feel that just their book is the crappiest of them all. If not that they feel their lists have too few valid builds.

[Prince of Spires]

I agree with the sentiment, though I'd change it slightly to "There's a thin line between getting stomped into the ground and being frustrating to fight", and GW seems very afraid of the latter.
Because getting half your front rank beaten up before you even swing on the charge? Feels kinda bad. Getting outmaneuvered and out-charge-range'd due to higher movement characteristics? Feels kinda bad. Getting obliterated and restricted by magic? Feels kinda bad.

This feels pretty accurate to me. The honors are almost there, but at this point, you really only take them when you want a specific mount. They could have added a lot of flavor, and our GA very much depends on them to do so. Without honours we pretty much only have a generic fighting character and a generic mage character and that's it. The honour are a way to create different versions of them. But they're just not very useable. They dulled them down to the point where they are only there so you can take a dragon or a lion chariot or whatever.

I think, just think, that GW is really not aiming the Arcane Journals towards competitive play. That is more the realm of the Grand armies.

I mainly agree, though most AJ seem to have 1 fluffy and 1 more competitive list. The Lion one might actually be a pretty competitive one though. Scouting S4 shooting and S6 CC attacks is pretty potent, and you can still bring a dragon and other hard hitting toys.

The main issue I have with the AJ is that the SGG list adds nothing at all. You can build almost all playable SGG lists with the regular GA rules, except that the GA version is probably better. The very limited unit and character choices combined with the 33% core just ruins the whole thing. SW in core is nice, except that we don't tend to bring SW because they're not great. Meaning having them in core compared to special doesn't add anything if you need to bring 8% more core. Same with being able to take the Shadow Stalker honour. It's just bad on a noble because you are limited to Light Armour and 50pts of magic items. When you're T3 and S4, that's pretty pointless.

The rest of the shortcomings of the AJ I can overlook. Yes, some items are terrible, but I'm fine without them. But there simply is no point at all to the SGG list.

[Ielthan]

I agree with the sentiment, though I'd change it slightly to "There's a thin line between getting stomped into the ground and being frustrating to fight", and GW seems very afraid of the latter.
Because getting half your front rank beaten up before you even swing on the charge? Feels kinda bad. Getting outmaneuvered and out-charge-range'd due to higher movement characteristics? Feels kinda bad. Getting obliterated and restricted by magic? Feels kinda bad.

This feels pretty accurate to me. The honors are almost there, but at this point, you really only take them when you want a specific mount. They could have added a lot of flavor, and our GA very much depends on them to do so. Without honours we pretty much only have a generic fighting character and a generic mage character and that's it. The honour are a way to create different versions of them. But they're just not very useable. They dulled them down to the point where they are only there so you can take a dragon or a lion chariot or whatever.

I think, just think, that GW is really not aiming the Arcane Journals towards competitive play. That is more the realm of the Grand armies.

I mainly agree, though most AJ seem to have 1 fluffy and 1 more competitive list. The Lion one might actually be a pretty competitive one though. Scouting S4 shooting and S6 CC attacks is pretty potent, and you can still bring a dragon and other hard hitting toys.

The main issue I have with the AJ is that the SGG list adds nothing at all. You can build almost all playable SGG lists with the regular GA rules, except that the GA version is probably better. The very limited unit and character choices combined with the 33% core just ruins the whole thing. SW in core is nice, except that we don't tend to bring SW because they're not great. Meaning having them in core compared to special doesn't add anything if you need to bring 8% more core. Same with being able to take the Shadow Stalker honour. It's just bad on a noble because you are limited to Light Armour and 50pts of magic items. When you're T3 and S4, that's pretty pointless.

The rest of the shortcomings of the AJ I can overlook. Yes, some items are terrible, but I'm fine without them. But there simply is no point at all to the SGG list.

I genuinely don't think the book was finished. The lack of a new magic lore is really glaring, some of the horrific magic items, in addition to the comments in the warhammer community article that don't seem to bear any resemblance (or even contradict) to the AJ that was actually published. The lack of enthusiasm for High Elves (and probably Elves in general) was clear in the awful fluff section, and just in the general writing of the list; it's all been written from the perspective of stripping stuff out of the 8th edition book and toning everything down to the point that many things are basically unplayable (same with the wood elf and dark elf lists btw), there is almost nothing innovative or new in the list. Compare this to the previous books where you could tell the writers were trying to put in new ideas, and had a real passion for the subject. More than any other AJ (at least the empire book had interesting AoI's) the High Elf book was phoned in, and they didn't even bother finishing it which is the real kick in the teeth. I've every high elf army book and have played them all, and this is by far the worst, even the previously weak ones like the 6th ed book were still fun and had strong points like the artwork, fluff, the plethora of magic items etc. Competitively it does pretty well because dragons and bows of averlorn are op, the actual elves are basically crap.

This is the first edition ever where I'm thinking about switching to play other armies because High Elves just aren't very fun to play at the moment, and most importantly they don't actually play like High Elves; the competitive lists are basically just better wood elf evasion lists with a dragon; they don't even look like an army. This partly because of the core rules being so problematic, but also partly because the army list has such awful internal balance.

Hopefully the wood elf book was at least finished before publishing.

[Jedra]

But there simply is no point at all to the SGG list.

I have always loved LSG and every edition I have desperately wanted to make them work - but in most cases they simply didn't, being too confused as to their role. This edition, between the changes to how break tests work and naval discipline (and being able to supplement them with the Razor Standard) they *finally* worked and I can't understate how excited I was to hear about SGG being one of the AoI in the AJ...

... which is why it hurts me so much to agree with you. I really *tried* to make it work, and broad access to Evasive and Drilled on LSH is at least unique to the AoI list and interesting... but it is *so* expensive to access evasive on your LSG, and the 33% core and expensive, sub-par characters kills it.

At the end of the day I'm not a competitive player in the sense that I don't go to tournaments/competitions - but the game *is* a competition between two people at its core, and no one wants to show up to the table and feel like they've lost before you've even thrown a dice. For me personally I like variety and interesting lists: I have a dragon prince and I've basically stopped using it - not because it isn't great (it is) but because it's boring. I really wanted the AJ to give me some new, interesting viable options but sadly this wasn't to be.

The LSG list I actually run is a GA with Seaguard Honours Prince on Skycutter - and it performs miles better than SGG lists I ran, while still not being a "drop a dragon and plough through the peons".

[Ramesesis]

The Chrace list can be really though. I think it takes time getting used to (I sure need to) but the Chracian woodsmen are potent. Strength 4 shooting, 4+armour against shooting and being skirmishers. And they can wack their opponents with str6 AP3 attacks. That is scary for many opponents.

White lions as core is good. Sure, strike last and all that but a character joining them and helping to take down a pair of enemies first sorten the blow.
And what is the point of White lion without a character to guard?
Using the free difficult terrain to your advantage is also a key element.
And make sure it does not cause trouble for our chariots.

[Ielthan]

The Chrace list can be really though. I think it takes time getting used to (I sure need to) but the Chracian woodsmen are potent. Strength 4 shooting, 4+armour against shooting and being skirmishers. And they can wack their opponents with str6 AP3 attacks. That is scary for many opponents.

White lions as core is good. Sure, strike last and all that but a character joining them and helping to take down a pair of enemies first sorten the blow.
And what is the point of White lion without a character to guard?
Using the free difficult terrain to your advantage is also a key element.
And make sure it does not cause trouble for our chariots.

If we're talking competitive Warhammer, the list relies on a dragon, but the GA can do lists with dragons just so much better.

In fun games, the main issue with that list is that it doesn't make white lions any better, and even by the standards of infantry they're absolutely terrible. The lion guard, if infantry ever becomes less awful, could be interesting but then they're ruined by being in the rare section (such a weird choice in what's already a niche list). The best thing from that list is honestly the war lion darts as very cheap chaff that can take out a warmachine crew. In the GA if they weren't contingent on running white lions I think you might see people take them. The Chracian woodsmen are okish, but if I'm going a fun list I want my army to look like an army, and there are already far too many skirmishers in the game as is.

[Ramesesis]

I am not sure we have the same idea of what a fun list is. To me, a fun army can be a pair of spearelf regiments with archer detachments work alongside them. Maybe a unit of elite infantry as a reserve force, RBT:s and cavalry on the wings. Now it looks like an army, a central body of infantry with wings of cavalry.
Oh, yes, skirmisher to scout aheadand harass the enemy.

That is a fun army that looks like an army should and operates as armies often did.
So what if it is no good. And if my opponent is on the same page, and we usually are, he will bring an army that to others would look equally crappy. But when two crappy armies with plenty of infantry face each other, they are pretty even and fun.

[Ramesesis]

So, those beast units looks interesting. But what a mix of animals. But it could be a fun project making your own.

[Csjarrat]

Unfortunately they're ancient overpriced crap from the 90s again. Was hoping for some new models but nope.