Cathay Confirmed!!!

[Axiem]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en- ... nd-cathay/

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Anduil of Elithis]

Really cool! As Tor Elithis is rather close to Cathay, I'd love to build a thematic allied detachment for my army. Fingers crossed that Cathay can ally with us.

Edit: depending on how the Cathayan models are built, they might also be excellent to kitbash a more Eastern looking HE colony army. I am suddenly more excited about the opportunities coming from these kits than for our own AJ

[Jedra]

Gotta say... those are some cool looking miniatures. If GWs goal with a half baked army journal and highly limited release of only HE miniatures that i already have was to get me to consider branching out into their new toys, I'd say theyn succeeded...

[Anduil of Elithis]

Take away the wings and you have the unicorn our Stormweavers should possess

[Prince of Spires]

I like the models. They look great. Though they do have a bit of AoS in all the twirly bits attached to them. Not that I'm starting a new army yet...

It's also great to see GW actually releasing a new faction for TOW. It makes it less of a nostalgia money grab from older players and more like something that's growing into its own game. I'm curious to see how Ogres will feature in the list. They are in some of the photos. Maybe either Ogres get shoved in or they become a next evil faction some time in the future. Both would be cool

[Ielthan]

They look really nice, suspect they'll be massive in scale, maybe bigger than 32mm, closer to 36mm. Will be interesting to see how they are written power level wise, like will a jade warrior just be an empire halberdier or will they have better equipment? Also how will the transformation mechanic of the dragon work if she's in a unit as a human? I love the lantern thing but it is gigantic, would kind of like to see a more 6th ed version of one tbh.

Makes me excited for what they will do with Kislev.

I would love it if GW really pushed this hard in China to expand there, the interest in this kind of hobby definitely exists there (gundam stores can be found in every city), but I think the concern would be the amount of space needed to store and play (most people's apartments aren't that big), and the prohibitive cost of the hobby.

[Velmates]

I was also wondering about the size of a jade warrior (and so on). Usually, the 25mm bases for normal sized warriors come with room to spare. I guess they are comparable to AoS chaos warriors bulk wise.

And I also fear for the power-creep we have seen in previous editions, especially 8th. I cannot imagine e.g. jade warriors being just human halberdiers. The models will cost a lot more, from the look of them and GW won't only justify it from a hobbyist POV but will also give price justification on the tabletop. But we will find out...

[Giladis]

I am not a fan, the models are just "too much" for gaming pieces (much of what GW does has been that for a while now). Armies made out of GW miniatures have been increasingly looking like display pieces you could use to play (but carefully) rather than something intended for recurring use.

[Anduil of Elithis]

Some rules rumours from Facebook regarding the Cathay models:

[Serathail]

I like the models, they look gorgeous and it seems like a lot of effort (and commitment to ToW) has gone into them. No resin and (besides Miao) not really AoS levels of posing either, so while dynamic, there should be less of an Ishaya Vess situation going on. I'm giving that trident a year at most. xD
So pretty great day for the system overall imo, even if it stings that HE (presumably) paid the price of mediocricy for it. If so, definitely would have preferred if to wait longer but get something a bit more... thought out.

[Jedra]

Some rules rumours from Facebook regarding the Cathay models:

yeah no power creep there if true

[Prince of Spires]

There are some power creek rules in there if they are true. The biggest one being the cavalry one with fighting in 2 ranks and follow-up counting as charging. In the relatively low nr of attacks game that TOW now is, that sounds like a terrible idea. Though it does depend on the execution of course. If they got only 1 attack base and a price similar to Dragon Princes, then they would perform similarly. Except for the count as charged one. That just makes any kind of hammer useless. After all, now if you manage to hold against a cavalry unit they get bogged down and start a wet-towel slapping contest. With this however, they just keep going.

The warpstone sounds pretty powerful, though it depends on how common it is. If it's on 1 character, it's fine. If it's like a ring of fury and all unit champions can bring it, then it's all kinds of broken.

Transforming into a dragon could make for an interesting dynamic. I wonder how it goes in terms of how many wounds they have etc. It does pose some weird fluff questions. How did we suddenly end up with 5.000 year old characters who can turn into dragons at will and all that...

As for the flying thing giving LoS, it's a fun thing, but I doubt it makes much difference. And of course, in general if it can see you, then you can see it (potentially). So it could just be a thing to focus on early in the battle.

[Velmates]

There are some power creek rules in there if they are true. The biggest one being the cavalry one with fighting in 2 ranks and follow-up counting as charging. In the relatively low nr of attacks game that TOW now is, that sounds like a terrible idea. Though it does depend on the execution of course. If they got only 1 attack base and a price similar to Dragon Princes, then they would perform similarly. Except for the count as charged one. That just makes any kind of hammer useless. After all, now if you manage to hold against a cavalry unit they get bogged down and start a wet-towel slapping contest. With this however, they just keep going.

The warpstone sounds pretty powerful, though it depends on how common it is. If it's on 1 character, it's fine. If it's like a ring of fury and all unit champions can bring it, then it's all kinds of broken.

Transforming into a dragon could make for an interesting dynamic. I wonder how it goes in terms of how many wounds they have etc. It does pose some weird fluff questions. How did we suddenly end up with 5.000 year old characters who can turn into dragons at will and all that...

As for the flying thing giving LoS, it's a fun thing, but I doubt it makes much difference. And of course, in general if it can see you, then you can see it (potentially). So it could just be a thing to focus on early in the battle.

I guess, the warpstone refers to the sentinel - GW said it comes in different flavors (terracotta, granite, and warpstone). So it's not an item but a rule of the sentinel itself.

The lantern looks awesome, though. I think, I will get one just to paint it up and ... put it somewhere. Nice piece to show on a display.

[Serathail]

There are some power creek rules in there if they are true. The biggest one being the cavalry one with fighting in 2 ranks and follow-up counting as charging.

Concerning those first two points, iirc something like that was mentioned by the hosts following the cathay reveal on the stream, and to me it just sounded like they were talking about FbigO and cav spears (in a "this is what jade lancers can do both when charging and when charged" type of deal).
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, it was very early in the morning and I wasn't listening too closely, but that's at least how I remember it rn and I cannot check until later.

Edit: I was wrong, must have been half asleep during that section haha

[foreverthesceptic]

There are some power creek rules in there if they are true. The biggest one being the cavalry one with fighting in 2 ranks and follow-up counting as charging. In the relatively low nr of attacks game that TOW now is, that sounds like a terrible idea. Though it does depend on the execution of course. If they got only 1 attack base and a price similar to Dragon Princes, then they would perform similarly. Except for the count as charged one. That just makes any kind of hammer useless. After all, now if you manage to hold against a cavalry unit they get bogged down and start a wet-towel slapping contest. With this however, they just keep going.

The warpstone sounds pretty powerful, though it depends on how common it is. If it's on 1 character, it's fine. If it's like a ring of fury and all unit champions can bring it, then it's all kinds of broken.

Transforming into a dragon could make for an interesting dynamic. I wonder how it goes in terms of how many wounds they have etc. It does pose some weird fluff questions. How did we suddenly end up with 5.000 year old characters who can turn into dragons at will and all that...

As for the flying thing giving LoS, it's a fun thing, but I doubt it makes much difference. And of course, in general if it can see you, then you can see it (potentially). So it could just be a thing to focus on early in the battle.

But surely, we all knew this would be inevitable? It's the brand spanking new Faction - it has to have broken rules. Tomb kings and Brets got the same treatment, so only obvious Grand Cathay will be overpowered. GW don't make balanced games. They know what they are doing and have chosen certain factions to be overpowerd and others, like the High Elves to be mediocre armies or punching bags for these select few factions.

[Ramesesis]

They look awesome to the extent I would fear using them in games. But that is GW today I guess.

However they do look interesting. Luckily GW prices ensures I just cannot afford them! And that is good

[TyrrenAzureblade]

This miniature range looks incredible. I’m decidedly not buying into it, but I am excited that GW has made something that strongly indicates they are all in on TOW. And that means continued rules support, FAQs, new journals, probably a second edition down the line, and hopefully model refreshes for the old-as-dirt kits that are still out there across all of the factions.

I think they undercooked High Elves this edition, but I’ll continue being cautiously optimistic that future rules changes will make us better.

[anorexia]

Shooting two times with a cannon is some next lvl OP sh1t. cant belive it.
That gigant tho, looks amazing.

[Serathail]

I honestly feel like some rules are incredibly overhyped and labeled as OP right away, despite no point costs, weapon profiles etc. being known yet. I too assume the faction will be strong, but at the moment I see nothing that is gamebreaking unless undercosted by a lot.

Cavalry fighting in two ranks on the charge sounds really good, but remember you need to pay for that second rank. All the rule really does is allowing you to keep a more narrow, mobile cav block with a similar ammount of attacks (you lose the horse attacks) as a long cav line (some more horse attacks at cost of maneuverability) or two smaller units (more versatility/area of denial at cost of resilience) which is right down the jade lancers' alley (pun intended) as far as lore goes. It's furious charge which loses attacks once the units starts bleeding models. Is it good? Sure. Can it be quite nasty if they decide to give the unit drilled and/or countercharge? Certainly. But as long as the models aren't undercosted by a ton, there's probably no need to worry.
Equally the "charging when following up" feels like it won't matter all that often except maybe vs undead, DW and big monsters who can often tank S5 attacks well enough to roll a give ground thereafter. Not feeling too concerned about two out of those three, though I will admit I do hope there's some caveat to this (like "must have charged at least 3" on the previous turn to build up momentum" so they can't do it indefinitely).
And finally we don't know the profile of a "cathayan lances" (which presumably give them fight in extra rank),as they called them, yet, they might very well loose something to gain this ability (e.g. Sword of Hoeth also looses AB to strike at initiative).

Same goes for a cannon shooting twice. You buy an ogre loader as an upgrade to be able to do so. From experience my BTs usually survive 4-5 turns, so I'll assume the same for a cannon (i'll be neglecting misfires for simplicity). An empire grand cannon costs 125pt, so that's 125/4.5 = 28pts per shot. Let's assume they use the chorf ogre loader cost (which does far less, so the cathayan one migth be more expensive) of 20pt. Now you get one extra shot => 145/5.5 = 26pts per shot. You save around 7% per shot which is a long shot from being op, even while assuming the stuff won't be priced in accordance with its rules. All that to say the extra damage potential from an ogre loader scales almost linearly with its added costs (the longer the cannon survives the more so), or in other words: It's about as efficient to just get a second cannon (shoots 4-5 more shots at 125pt) point for point, as an ogre loader for the first one (shoots one more shot at 20pt).

All that to say it's probably too early to judge stuff as OP just because the base concept of rules sounds good without knowing their point costs.
(Just for comparison, a heavy cav unit with a 3+ armour and 6+/5+ ward, counter charge, first charge, M8 rerolling 1s to charge with a highly maneuverable formation that can keep wizards save within its ranks even in combat and gives its leadership to nearby chaff also sounds increadibly strong, but that's just KotR. They are good, but not meta-changing in any capacity.)

[Jedra]

Fight in two ranks agreed isn't really OP unless it's paired with something else - I presume it's *supporting attacks* from the 2nd rank which means it's max 1 attack, for instance. Likewise I assume a character can't e.g. cast from the 2nd rank as not in the fighting rank, etc. So if they are a 1 attack unit and get supporting attacks, as you say it hits like Dragon Princes with a narrower front - nifty for sure, not a game breaker - how good will come down to how pricey.

I think the follow up counting as a charge is a pretty big dynamic change, however it's costed... it negates the "blunted lance" problem that cavalry units tend to have, making infantry even worse at tarpitting.

In any case it looks like it is pitched as a small, elite army - those are some strong abilities we should expect/hope to get costed accordingly. I am very curious to see more. I'll never lose my love of high-elves as honestly none of the other armies appeal to me, but this one is definitely looking like it might tempt me to have an army on the side...

Also side note:

That Paper Lantern looks like even more of a pain to transport than a Skycutter, so it's not ALL better than High Elves

[Velmates]

Is there any idea of when Cathay will be released? Thank you!

[Prince of Spires]

Is there any idea of when Cathay will be released? Thank you!

Nope.

It's up to GW undefined and mysterious planning. We'd originally be getting 2 or 3 HE waves that would include print to order, and they'd all be done by now. And we're at the moment looking at 4 HE waves at a minimum. Most information points at Wood Elves and Beastmen being first. If they each take 2 months to be released like High Elves and they don't want to release big stuff during the summer holiday, then we're looking at end of the year for Cathay. Which would release them just in time for Christmas gifts and the likes. Which actually sounds like a great plan from a marketing point of view. So that's where I would put my money: October.