Ring of Fury

[Prince of Spires]

Any use in putting a RoF on a Shadow Warriors champ?

Having taken them to a few tournaments with chariot runner to screen my chariot prince, I did find myself using them quite a lot of the time to scout behind enemy lines instead, but their total lack of combat prowess really made them fairly useless in this way. Aside from march blocking they just can't threaten anything really, their 5 S3 shots are basically ignorable too, and that they can't march and shoot really holds them back too. Their real nadir was 5 charging the rear of 5 jezzails, bouncing off them, then getting run down by them the next turn. With a champ and RoF they won't be a very optimised unit, but could be quite a useful, cheap, utility unit. Also they'll likely be quite easy to keep outside of the enemy lvl 4's dispel range so can make use of the RoF well into warmachines.

I think they certainly have a place in a SW unit if you're bringing a Sea Guard legion. You can bring 2 SW units as core at 2k points. Pack them with a champ, give them the ring, and go warmachine hunting or chaff hunting or small shooting units hunting.

In a GA, SW are pretty hard to justify, because as Ielthan mentions, they're just not very good. Maybe the ring increases their damage output a little. On the other hand, if I would run a big unit of SW now, then I'd add a shadow prince with the Bow of the Seafarer and try to stay out of combat as much as possible. Though it would still be nice to have I guess. So why not. Give it a try and let us know...

[Ecthelion9]

I I usually use SW in my games. 10 of them as a shield for a level 5 Archmage with elemental lore. Travel mystical pathway and plague of rust plus windblast and the ward spell are a very good combination. I give the Ruby ring to the archmage and a lodestone to the unit's boss. I just have to be careful that they never get into close combat. I'm thinking of adding a noble with the sea fearer bow to the unit for side shots as well. What do you think?

[Csjarrat]

I I usually use SW in my games. 10 of them as a shield for a level 5 Archmage with elemental lore. Travel mystical pathway and plague of rust plus windblast and the ward spell are a very good combination. I give the Ruby ring to the archmage and a lodestone to the unit's boss. I just have to be careful that they never get into close combat. I'm thinking of adding a noble with the sea fearer bow to the unit for side shots as well. What do you think?

I think for me the question is (in an army that can't use shadow warriors in core), why aren't I doing this with the mechanically better sisters?

[Prince of Spires]

I I usually use SW in my games. 10 of them as a shield for a level 5 Archmage with elemental lore. Travel mystical pathway and plague of rust plus windblast and the ward spell are a very good combination. I give the Ruby ring to the archmage and a lodestone to the unit's boss. I just have to be careful that they never get into close combat. I'm thinking of adding a noble with the sea fearer bow to the unit for side shots as well. What do you think?

I think for me the question is (in an army that can't use shadow warriors in core), why aren't I doing this with the mechanically better sisters?

The Rule of Cool of course.

Shadow Warriors are just bad-ass cool models with great lore attached to them. Of course you want to take them.

That, or
- you've run out of rare points (because of X, like maybe you also brought 2 frostheart phoenixes and a Great Eagle)
- you only have SW models and play WYSIWYG
- you feel sisters are too strong and are playing friendly lists
- you need / like scouts
- you like the extra 1 models you get if you bring 14/15 of them

[Jedra]

I I usually use SW in my games. 10 of them as a shield for a level 5 Archmage with elemental lore. Travel mystical pathway and plague of rust plus windblast and the ward spell are a very good combination. I give the Ruby ring to the archmage and a lodestone to the unit's boss. I just have to be careful that they never get into close combat. I'm thinking of adding a noble with the sea fearer bow to the unit for side shots as well. What do you think?

I think for me the question is (in an army that can't use shadow warriors in core), why aren't I doing this with the mechanically better sisters?

The reason to take shadow Warriors is chariot runner, which means they are more likely to be a position to charge- maybe to support a chariot from getting bogged down - or be charged.

With sisters id be going for ranged stuff on the champ instead.

[Csjarrat]

Cool, well sounds like you've thought out your reasons. Give it a go and see how you get on

[barghest]

I I usually use SW in my games. 10 of them as a shield for a level 5 Archmage with elemental lore. Travel mystical pathway and plague of rust plus windblast and the ward spell are a very good combination. I give the Ruby ring to the archmage and a lodestone to the unit's boss. I just have to be careful that they never get into close combat. I'm thinking of adding a noble with the sea fearer bow to the unit for side shots as well. What do you think?

I think for me the question is (in an army that can't use shadow warriors in core), why aren't I doing this with the mechanically better sisters?

The reason to take shadow Warriors is chariot runner, which means they are more likely to be a position to charge- maybe to support a chariot from getting bogged down - or be charged.

With sisters id be going for ranged stuff on the champ instead.

I was really hoping that Chrace Woodsmen would get chariot runner for this purpose....

[Axiem]

I was really hoping that Chrace Woodsmen would get chariot runner for this purpose....

The reason to take shadow Warriors is chariot runner, which means they are more likely to be a position to charge- maybe to support a chariot from getting bogged down - or be charged.

With sisters id be going for ranged stuff on the champ instead.

Can you expand on how you guys are thinking about / using Chariot Runner? I haven't found it useful, and if I think about in the context of the unit and its cost, if I'm paying something like 70+ points for a min unit of Shadow Warriors, and their only job is Chariot Runner, I could think of this as a 70+ point upgrade to whatever unit I actually care about getting into combat, and to me I'm just not seeing the value.

In my mind, if I have to put a Chariot Runner unit in front of my Chariot model / character, I have to keep it overrun distance + 0.1" behind the Shadow Warriors, which means I'm unlikely to actually charge the things I want to because they're so far behind where they need to be.

It slows down something that would otherwise be fast, and especially in the case of the Lion Chariot which doesn't have Swiftstride, it's too much of a penalty/risk and not enough reward. I've only tested with it minimally, but my experience felt...well bad. With careful movement positioning, I've never felt like I needed something else to get my Lion Chariot / Characters where I needed them to go.

Am I missing something?

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Jedra]

So a couple things to note: I tend to use Heroes in chariots (so cover becomes more important), and skycutters are (at least on warhall) my chariot of choice, followed by Tiranocs. I think the "Chariot Runner" abilities are actually better for shooting chariots and cover against shooting (while still setting up for flank charges) than covering against charges - especially as at T4 they are very vulnerable to shooting.

I've knocked up a few scenarios below on Warhall to demonstrate (note: not from a real game but absolutely the kind of thing I've done in real games).

Scenario 1: Shooting Cover



I've set this up with a flank charge in the making as well but this isn't necessarily going to be the case. The basic principle here is that the Shadowwarriors are being used to cover against some handgunners and a hellblaster volleygun (24" range) - which is one of the deadliest ranged weapons for us and matches the range of the Eagleclaw BT. SW move in then the chariot moves and pivots for the supporting charge - you're now setup for the support charge and get a round of shooting against the shooting targets with the 360o firing platform. Even if you fail to kill the hellblaster, your chariot is still unlikely to get shot up. Skirmishers -1 to hit and long range will soak most of the shots.

Scenario 2: Chasing Down Artillery


Setting up a turn 2 charge on artillery/shooting placements using Scouts and Flying. A is the "not within 12" of the enemy" scout deployment rule. SW can move 10 or 5 (B) depending on what you want, but even if they move only 5 to allow shooting you can still reach within 10" of stationary targets (no stand & shoot at that distance (D) ) and perhaps even if they move. 12" is your minimum charge range so successful charges are practically guaranteed.

You could even move only 10" in turn 1 to allow for shooting as well - increases your maximum possible damage, risks preventing a turn 2 charge especially if they haven't deployed right on the line (you'll have minimum 14" charge, which is still well within expected normal charge range, but if it's not a perfect straight line and they've deployed a couple inches back it could easily be pushing up to your max declarable charge at 18" so situation dependent)

Against this allows you to take a couple chariots in deep on turn 1 without risk of being shot, for a turn 2 charge on critical targets. While this implies some deployment skill, if you e.g. had 5 skycutters in a SG army, the scouts deployment being last means actually it wouldn't be too hard

Scenario 3: Charge Options

The point of this one is to give them only bad movement options.

This one is the hardest to setup, least important and mostly irrelevant on skycutters because of flying. You could setup the Tiranoc unit just outside of charge range which reducing risk but the closer you are the more constrained they are.

The lopsided setup is important. If they charge the SW, they'll fire & flee (and recover with Feigned Flight) - between the wheel and the flee move there's a good chance that will fall short if they continue the charge (by choice or because they failed the leadership test). This can also move them away from e.g. your main force to the right and it sets up a flank charge from the chariots. If they redirect there's either a high chance of falling short (but note: this would be true if the SW weren't there either - you can setup at 16.5inches to prevent it as that's the maximum charge declare range).

If they opt not to charge they have worse maneuvering options because of the SW blocking certain paths - and likely anywhere they choose will setup for a flank charge from either SW or the chariots. The closer you are the more their options are blocked, but the higher risk of the charges. Regardless of choices and dice rolls your chariots should be able to charge on the next turn with no fear of being blocked.

This last one I've only used a few times, it's more just annoying to the opponent than it is awesome.

[Turion Rilyaloce]

So a couple things to note: I tend to use Heroes in chariots (so cover becomes more important), and skycutters are (at least on warhall) my chariot of choice, followed by Tiranocs. I think the "Chariot Runner" abilities are actually better for shooting chariots and cover against shooting (while still setting up for flank charges) than covering against charges - especially as at T4 they are very vulnerable to shooting.

I've knocked up a few scenarios below on Warhall to demonstrate (note: not from a real game but absolutely the kind of thing I've done in real games).

Scenario 1: Shooting Cover



I've set this up with a flank charge in the making as well but this isn't necessarily going to be the case. The basic principle here is that the Shadowwarriors are being used to cover against some handgunners and a hellblaster volleygun (24" range) - which is one of the deadliest ranged weapons for us and matches the range of the Eagleclaw BT. SW move in then the chariot moves and pivots for the supporting charge - you're now setup for the support charge and get a round of shooting against the shooting targets with the 360o firing platform. Even if you fail to kill the hellblaster, your chariot is still unlikely to get shot up. Skirmishers -1 to hit and long range will soak most of the shots.

Scenario 2: Chasing Down Artillery


Setting up a turn 2 charge on artillery/shooting placements using Scouts and Flying. A is the "not within 12" of the enemy" scout deployment rule. SW can move 10 or 5 (B) depending on what you want, but even if they move only 5 to allow shooting you can still reach within 10" of stationary targets (no stand & shoot at that distance (D) ) and perhaps even if they move. 12" is your minimum charge range so successful charges are practically guaranteed.

You could even move only 10" in turn 1 to allow for shooting as well - increases your maximum possible damage, risks preventing a turn 2 charge especially if they haven't deployed right on the line (you'll have minimum 14" charge, which is still well within expected normal charge range, but if it's not a perfect straight line and they've deployed a couple inches back it could easily be pushing up to your max declarable charge at 18" so situation dependent)

Against this allows you to take a couple chariots in deep on turn 1 without risk of being shot, for a turn 2 charge on critical targets. While this implies some deployment skill, if you e.g. had 5 skycutters in a SG army, the scouts deployment being last means actually it wouldn't be too hard

Scenario 3: Charge Options

The point of this one is to give them only bad movement options.

This one is the hardest to setup, least important and mostly irrelevant on skycutters because of flying. You could setup the Tiranoc unit just outside of charge range which reducing risk but the closer you are the more constrained they are.

The lopsided setup is important. If they charge the SW, they'll fire & flee (and recover with Feigned Flight) - between the wheel and the flee move there's a good chance that will fall short if they continue the charge (by choice or because they failed the leadership test). This can also move them away from e.g. your main force to the right and it sets up a flank charge from the chariots. If they redirect there's either a high chance of falling short (but note: this would be true if the SW weren't there either - you can setup at 16.5inches to prevent it as that's the maximum charge declare range).

If they opt not to charge they have worse maneuvering options because of the SW blocking certain paths - and likely anywhere they choose will setup for a flank charge from either SW or the chariots. The closer you are the more their options are blocked, but the higher risk of the charges. Regardless of choices and dice rolls your chariots should be able to charge on the next turn with no fear of being blocked.

This last one I've only used a few times, it's more just annoying to the opponent than it is awesome.

Presentations like this are just so invaluable. Thank you for taking the time to explain specific maneuvers. Building lists is one thing, but being taught how to use the models is amazing.

[Ielthan]

I think for me the question is (in an army that can't use shadow warriors in core), why aren't I doing this with the mechanically better sisters?

The reason to take shadow Warriors is chariot runner, which means they are more likely to be a position to charge- maybe to support a chariot from getting bogged down - or be charged.

With sisters id be going for ranged stuff on the champ instead.

I was really hoping that Chrace Woodsmen would get chariot runner for this purpose....

Me too I'm a bit surprised they haven't got it.

[TiFinger]

One of the biggest improvements from the AJ I believe is going to be Ring of Fury. Not only does it help provide something thematic to the army that has been missing, the ability to take multiples of it creates a real shift in where enemy Wizards need to position in order to counter spells.

This is not a small thing.

At the same time, looking at some of the numbers:

- On average, it more than doubles the number of hits Silver Helms inflict;

- It approximately doubles the damage inflicted, on average;

- Max Rolls, it approaches tripling the damage inflicted;

Someone can check my math. Assumes hitting on 4s, and differentiates between S4 and S5 hits, both at -2: doesn't account for Armourbane (1) on Lances, so slightly higher in reality:

AVERAGES


MAX


Kind regards,

Axiem

Hi

I think theres a calculation mistake in your calculations.
These values should be 1.111 and 0.667. With a 3+ armor and a -2AP its a 5+ save. so 4 out of 6 go trough the armor or 1.667 * 4 / 6 = 0.111 and 1 * 4 / 6 = 0.667

Screenshot 2025-02-26 112846.jpg (143.83 KiB) Viewed 2100 times

[TiFinger]

Also I made my own in detail statistic calculation with excel.
here are the probabilities for diffrent amaount of wounds for your diffrent "enemytypes".
I made this plots without a displell but with the addition of the horses and the armor bane.
If anyone wants to get diffrent enemy values or the results with dispell attemps pleas feel free to ask for it:

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2.jpg (195.83 KiB) Viewed 2101 times

3.jpg (197.2 KiB) Viewed 2101 times

[Axiem]

Hi

I think theres a calculation mistake in your calculations.
These values should be 1.111 and 0.667. With a 3+ armor and a -2AP its a 5+ save. so 4 out of 6 go trough the armor or 1.667 * 4 / 6 = 0.111 and 1 * 4 / 6 = 0.667
Screenshot 2025-02-26 112846.jpg

Thank you -- this is the kind of error that late-night formulations can lead to. I had put in 5 out of 6, instead of 4 out of 6. Good catch.

It looks like your probability tables support the same conclusion: that at worst this is about a 50% damage increase, and it can be better than that in certain circumstances.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Axiem]

I've set this up with a flank charge in the making as well but this isn't necessarily going to be the case. The basic principle here is that the Shadowwarriors are being used to cover against some handgunners and a hellblaster volleygun (24" range) - which is one of the deadliest ranged weapons for us and matches the range of the Eagleclaw BT. SW move in then the chariot moves and pivots for the supporting charge - you're now setup for the support charge and get a round of shooting against the shooting targets with the 360o firing platform. Even if you fail to kill the hellblaster, your chariot is still unlikely to get shot up. Skirmishers -1 to hit and long range will soak most of the shots.

Thanks for taking the time to build up the diagrams, and explain the reasoning.

I suppose my main concern is that the argument seems to be in an environment where points aren't limited: meaning, if I am sacrificing a unit to protect my other unit, I'd be better off a) planning the list in such a way that units can survive such attacks; b) taking the cheapest units, or those that count towards Core; c) use terrain/cover and movement to achieve similar effects but without needing to expend a unit.

Frenzy-baiting I think there's a real argument to be made, but at least with my current Meta, while Frenzy is present is it's overwhelming.

Good thoughts -- thanks for sharing them!

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Halinn]

It's unfortunate that they already covered my planned use of this.

A model can only cast a single Bound spell per phase.

For a hot second, a prince with 4 rings sounded like great fun.

[TiFinger]

Hi

I think theres a calculation mistake in your calculations.
These values should be 1.111 and 0.667. With a 3+ armor and a -2AP its a 5+ save. so 4 out of 6 go trough the armor or 1.667 * 4 / 6 = 0.111 and 1 * 4 / 6 = 0.667
Screenshot 2025-02-26 112846.jpg

Thank you -- this is the kind of error that late-night formulations can lead to. I had put in 5 out of 6, instead of 4 out of 6. Good catch.

It looks like your probability tables support the same conclusion: that at worst this is about a 50% damage increase, and it can be better than that in certain circumstances.

Kind regards,

Axiem

Well in the worst case its only around 19% if the enemy has a lv4 wizard for dispelling, but otherwise yes.
But this is against an enemy you will lose aniway (as this realy tough dragon lords are nearly unkillable.)

1.jpg (92.93 KiB) Viewed 1802 times

against more reasonable enemies its arround 26%

2.jpg (95.05 KiB) Viewed 1802 times

best regards
TiFinger

[Râstë]

So a couple things to note: I tend to use Heroes in chariots (so cover becomes more important), and skycutters are (at least on warhall) my chariot of choice, followed by Tiranocs. I think the "Chariot Runner" abilities are actually better for shooting chariots and cover against shooting (while still setting up for flank charges) than covering against charges - especially as at T4 they are very vulnerable to shooting.

I've knocked up a few scenarios below on Warhall to demonstrate (note: not from a real game but absolutely the kind of thing I've done in real games).

Scenario 1: Shooting Cover



I've set this up with a flank charge in the making as well but this isn't necessarily going to be the case. The basic principle here is that the Shadowwarriors are being used to cover against some handgunners and a hellblaster volleygun (24" range) - which is one of the deadliest ranged weapons for us and matches the range of the Eagleclaw BT. SW move in then the chariot moves and pivots for the supporting charge - you're now setup for the support charge and get a round of shooting against the shooting targets with the 360o firing platform. Even if you fail to kill the hellblaster, your chariot is still unlikely to get shot up. Skirmishers -1 to hit and long range will soak most of the shots.

Scenario 2: Chasing Down Artillery


Setting up a turn 2 charge on artillery/shooting placements using Scouts and Flying. A is the "not within 12" of the enemy" scout deployment rule. SW can move 10 or 5 (B) depending on what you want, but even if they move only 5 to allow shooting you can still reach within 10" of stationary targets (no stand & shoot at that distance (D) ) and perhaps even if they move. 12" is your minimum charge range so successful charges are practically guaranteed.

You could even move only 10" in turn 1 to allow for shooting as well - increases your maximum possible damage, risks preventing a turn 2 charge especially if they haven't deployed right on the line (you'll have minimum 14" charge, which is still well within expected normal charge range, but if it's not a perfect straight line and they've deployed a couple inches back it could easily be pushing up to your max declarable charge at 18" so situation dependent)

Against this allows you to take a couple chariots in deep on turn 1 without risk of being shot, for a turn 2 charge on critical targets. While this implies some deployment skill, if you e.g. had 5 skycutters in a SG army, the scouts deployment being last means actually it wouldn't be too hard

Scenario 3: Charge Options

The point of this one is to give them only bad movement options.

This one is the hardest to setup, least important and mostly irrelevant on skycutters because of flying. You could setup the Tiranoc unit just outside of charge range which reducing risk but the closer you are the more constrained they are.

The lopsided setup is important. If they charge the SW, they'll fire & flee (and recover with Feigned Flight) - between the wheel and the flee move there's a good chance that will fall short if they continue the charge (by choice or because they failed the leadership test). This can also move them away from e.g. your main force to the right and it sets up a flank charge from the chariots. If they redirect there's either a high chance of falling short (but note: this would be true if the SW weren't there either - you can setup at 16.5inches to prevent it as that's the maximum charge declare range).

If they opt not to charge they have worse maneuvering options because of the SW blocking certain paths - and likely anywhere they choose will setup for a flank charge from either SW or the chariots. The closer you are the more their options are blocked, but the higher risk of the charges. Regardless of choices and dice rolls your chariots should be able to charge on the next turn with no fear of being blocked.

This last one I've only used a few times, it's more just annoying to the opponent than it is awesome.

Excellent explanation. Would love to read more stuff like this!

[Ecthelion9]

Can a champion of a unit of sisters be equiped with two Ring of Fury?

[Prince of Spires]

Can a champion of a unit of sisters be equiped with two Ring of Fury?

Yes they can, since it's an extremely common magic item.

However, and this is the important bit, they can only ever use 1. You're only allowed to cast a single bound spell per phase (BBB p109). So even if you have 6 rings of fury, you can only cast with a single one in the combat phase.

So they can bring multiple, but it's a waste of points to do so since they can't use multiple.

[Serathail]

There's exactly one scenario where having more than one is useful, and it's if you play another Helves player, they pick Vaul's Unmaking, the bearer of the ring can't move outside of 15", the spell goes off successfully and you don't dispell it. Then you still have a backup ring .-. -

[Stampire]

There's exactly one scenario where having more than one is useful, and it's if you play another Helves player, they pick Vaul's Unmaking, the bearer of the ring can't move outside of 15", the spell goes off successfully and you don't dispell it. Then you still have a backup ring .-. -

Incredibly even that situation doesn't apply, because Vaul's can only target characters, not unit champs or standard bearers. The only situation more than one is useful is if you have to meet a points minimum, you're out of models, and the extra 25 points gets you there.

(Vaul's is also 12" range, not 15")

[Serathail]

Looks like I gave the spell too much credit then going off memory. Goes to show how often I use our signature spells.

[Prince of Spires]

There's exactly one scenario where having more than one is useful, and it's if you play another Helves player, they pick Vaul's Unmaking, the bearer of the ring can't move outside of 15", the spell goes off successfully and you don't dispell it. Then you still have a backup ring .-. -

Incredibly even that situation doesn't apply, because Vaul's can only target characters, not unit champs or standard bearers. The only situation more than one is useful is if you have to meet a points minimum, you're out of models, and the extra 25 points gets you there.

Even that's silly though, since if you need to waste 25pts, there are simply different items you could bring that may not do much for the model, but would still do more than an item that does literally nothing. Loremaster's Cloak, potion of Strength, Sword of Might (yes, that's only 20 pts, but still) would all be worth more than just throwing the points away.