Give back toughness of 4 to high elves heroes

[Thyrionn]

It was downgraded to 3 in 2001 which makes high elves heroes too weak against opponents such as dwarves or orcs that have à toughness of 5. It would be great (and necessary) to give them back their toughness of 4 even if that means increasing their points value (like before). Thanks !

[Velmates]

No. Please don't.

[Morgen]

They've been T3 for so long now through so many editions. The new rules for mounts help out a lot with having some higher toughness heroes though.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

I would love to see High Elf Lords and other characters go back to T4. I don't get why some folks are so against it. It wouldn't break the list. Hell, they could make all characters T4 and just bring down the additional Toughness from mounts and everything would be fine.

[Axiem]

I don't think this would be a good thing for the game, especially the subsequent toughness creep. Plus, with how mounts now work with Eagles, Griffons, Dragons to choose from, lots of options to make "tough" elves.

Kind regards,

Axiem

[TyrrenAzureblade]

I think assuming this would lead to “toughness creep” is a bit of a leap. Elves having T4 characters wouldn’t be some meta-defining thing if mounts were adjusted to keep a cap at T6 with a Star Dragon. Even goblin and skaven characters are T4 and they’re supposed to be considered on the frailer end of the spectrum.

And don’t worry, GW isn’t changing this any time soon.

[Thyrionn]

Well i think it is totally necessary. I have done à battle against an orc general that had à strength and toughness of 5 which is totally unbalanced vs a high elf prince with à strength and toughness of 4 and 3. In the past, the game was better balanced (4/4 vs 4/5) though an orc general was already tough to destroy. Now it is impossible

[Ielthan]

I don't think T4 is necessary, or that it would make much difference tbh. I would much rather see our Princes and Nobles get +1 A. I understand them being fragile, but they should be fearsome fighters, which at 4/3A S4 they just aren't. We end up having to put our magic points into defensive kit, and they then hit very softly. Elves should be glass cannons, they're missing the cannon part. It seems a bit ridiculous to me that a thousand year old elf prince who is lightning fast, is effectively slower than a bretonnian duke who is basically just a rich, posh human. For a long time now, unless riding a monster, an Elf Prince is basically just a slightly better Empire General.

[Anduil of Elithis]

Yeah, I think the overtuned profile of the Bretonnian Duke highlights the issues of the Noble and Prince's profiles. I was used to having neglible advantages in WS, BS, Leadership and initiative in past editions, while often being outscored on critical stats such as toughness. But the Duke pulverized that feeble balance. The only saving grace is that he does that to all fighting heroes of the Forces of Order, so it is clear where the error lies. To me, this reads as the result of 'oh, the duke on pegasus always loses against the Tomb King on Bone Dragon, we need to do something before files hit the printers tomorrow!'

[ehung9001]

I don't think T4 is necessary, or that it would make much difference tbh. I would much rather see our Princes and Nobles get +1 A. I understand them being fragile, but they should be fearsome fighters, which at 4/3A S4 they just aren't. We end up having to put our magic points into defensive kit, and they then hit very softly. Elves should be glass cannons, they're missing the cannon part. It seems a bit ridiculous to me that a thousand year old elf prince who is lightning fast, is effectively slower than a bretonnian duke who is basically just a rich, posh human. For a long time now, unless riding a monster, an Elf Prince is basically just a slightly better Empire General.

Dukes are essentially elder grail knights, which in turn are basically good-aligned warp champions. They are not just old rich guys. They are good chaos lords.

[Ramesesis]

If HE gets it all elves should have it.

But I do not think it is necessary. Now, I have only played since 2002 so for me this has always been the case. I do not try to challenge the enemy general unless I have some gimmicks with me.
HE heroes can take a ton of wards and regens along with good armour.
WE have it trickier.

[Prince of Spires]

Personal opinion is that when creating the HE character stat line, too many points were put into stuff that doesn't add all anything to the character while still making them expensive. I would much rather have +1S than +1WS for instance. And we're BS7, so what? We now can get 1 S3 shot that's almost guaranteed to hit most stuff. It's a pointless stat. You could remove it from a character, and 99% of all games wouldn't change. Or Initiative. What good is I6 if you also have Stike First. Yes, I know you can now bring a Stike Last weapon and still go before most stuff in a second round of combat. But ask yourself, would you even need the strike last weapon if we were S5?

High Elves have a kick-ass statline, except where it matters. Put the Blade of Leaping Gold in the O&G army list and it would see use. Now? Not a chance. S4 just isn't good enough for a character. Same with T. We need to load up on magical armour because otherwise we're dead in a single round of combat. Which limits a lot of options we could take. Even more so because we also need one of the expensive weapons that increases our S.

Even M5 is overrated. Most important combat characters end up mounted on something anyway, effectively removing the M of the character. So what if you're M5. That Empire Lord is on a horse and M7 while also being T4.

I wouldn't mind seeing one of the important HE stats increase, either S, T, or A. I'd gladly swap it out for BS 0.

[bkevs84]

We already have access to cheap high BS nobles (handmaiden) it would be nice to have access to some different lord options the easiest is make the honours operate differently.

Cost the lord and hero down a bit maybe lose some WS or BS or Int and have the honours add stuff like chacian hunter S+1, monster slayer to base Stateline, Warden +1 int or + 1 attack, loremaster +1 magic level amd make it avable to all heros increase cost,

[Serathail]

A change to elven honours so they have an actual effect would be awesome. I would prefer to pay a bit more and get something whose effect can be felt, both mechanically and fluff-wise. It's kind of hard to imagine you're playing an annointed for example when you look at the same exact prince statline with the slightest possible annointed flavour thrown in there with that 6+ ward save, which will probably become irrelevant anyway since you'll have to buy opal amulets or a ToP to keep him alive.
For the other elven honors something like
Shadow Stalkers => Shooting attacks equal to your attack characteristic (or at the very least +1. You would probably not even need to increase the cost for either which is kind of sad)
Annointed of Asuryan => 5+ Ward against nonmagical attacks (make them at least a bit better than rank and file PG, iirc 8th edition had them even increase ward saves of the unit but we probably don't want to go there)
would be nice.
Pure of Heart & Sea Guard seem decent enough as free options and Blood of Caledor feels alright to me with its WS increase.

[bkevs84]

A lot of modability and hero customization could exist in a greater capacity if the honours were expanded. If we could build a slightly different prince, the lack of t4 may seem less of an issue.

Or even just let someone who brings a general with honour x have 0-1 unit of associated troopers as core, but all other special options drop back to rare. Or become non options. Want PG in core, we'll maybe no princes for you, or they come out of your sisters or heavy chariot options.

Make us choose what flavour of hero or army we want and make us make choices, bog standard list for bog standard elf lords.

I would argue that DPs should never be core cause that's maybe too OP and they are too snooty to sum it with the pedestrian masses anyway.

[Prince of Spires]

Shadow Stalkers => Shooting attacks equal to your attack characteristic (or at the very least +1. You would probably not even need to increase the cost for either which is kind of sad)

The 3 biggest issues with the Shadow Stalker are actually that:
- he doesn't have Arrows of Isha, which makes his shooting attacks meh. Give him that, and he can actually make good use of the reaver bow. As it stands now, that thing just isn't worth it
- he's limited to only light armour. Which means he's very squishy for someone who is your general.
- Shadow Warriors suck.

Fix one or two of those, and he's suddenly a pretty good option. Or fix all three and he'll be loads of fun. Already just giving him Arrows of Isha as special rule, and let him not be your general goes a long way to making him good enough for a friendly game. Letting him take Heavy Armour or giving him an inate 6+ armour save would also help a deal.

And of course if the SW unit would actually be good it would be an amazing choice.