Bolt thrower, good or bad?

[foreverthesceptic]

I wanted to get peoples opinions on Bolt throwers. I have started including them in the last few games I have played and they are always the worst performing unit in my list. With my little experience of the game, currently, I think they are the most useless piece of artillery or am I wrong? Even if I target light armoured units with average toughness I can only manage 1 or if I am really lucky 2 kills. People tell me they are a mainstay in all High Elf armies, but I am struggling to see why. Other factions I have played against which have artillery are way more impactful. I feel like High Elves and I guess Dark Elves got the short end of the stick when it comes to artillery.

I can't see a reason why any person would waste points on them or have I got it really wrong?

Do people include them in their lists? If so, why?

[Giladis]

I include them but almost exclusively use them for single bolt shots.

[Pash]

I wanted to get peoples opinions on Bolt throwers. I have started including them in the last few games I have played and they are always the worst performing unit in my list. With my little experience of the game, currently, I think they are the most useless piece of artillery or am I wrong? Even if I target light armoured units with average toughness I can only manage 1 or if I am really lucky 2 kills. People tell me they are a mainstay in all High Elf armies, but I am struggling to see why. Other factions I have played against which have artillery are way more impactful. I feel like High Elves and I guess Dark Elves got the short end of the stick when it comes to artillery.

I can't see a reason why any person would waste points on them or have I got it really wrong?

Do people include them in their lists? If so, why?

You initial assessment is pretty much spot on - Bolt Throwers are pretty poor value for points. To be fair, the single bolt option is decent but the multishot is situational. The way Bolt Throwers are just now, they are probably 20-30pts overcosted. Given that Goblin Bolt Throwers are 45pts and come with an extra crew/wound but worse BS. Our Bolt Throwers should probably be about 60pts really. At that cost, they feel not too much for what you're getting. The way they are now, they're too pricy and too easy to kill.

If you do end up using then, I find you want 3-4 and just commit to trying to shoot down big scary things but even at that, i'm not sure they're worth it. They're not terrible, just overcosted.

[foreverthesceptic]

Maybe I'll try that. To be fair, I've only been bringing the one. I am able to field 3, so I will try that in my next game and give them another go. They are definitely over costed for the value they bring. It seems GW have this mindset that every unit in the High Elf roster must be over costed even if it isn't justified. Even the regular archer is over costed, in my opinion.

[double_skulls]

Definitely over-costed compared to other bolt throwers, and multi-shot is generally a bad idea. I'd go so far as to say if you have targets that are worth multi-shot then you are shooting at the wrong things.

It does really depends on your strategy and whether they complement other aspects of it. If you are leaning heavily into a 'gun line' they are really the only heavy hitters you've got, so you'd need them.

Generally I think the best things in the HE army are the fast things, cavalry & chariots, so I'm only using things like Elven Archers as cheap drops in an MSU strategy. 5 are slightly cheaper than an Eagle, and do have utility to clear out chaff.

[Pash]

Maybe I'll try that. To be fair, I've only been bringing the one. I am able to field 3, so I will try that in my next game and give them another go. They are definitely over costed for the value they bring. It seems GW have this mindset that every unit in the High Elf roster must be over costed even if it isn't justified. Even the regular archer is over costed, in my opinion.

Yes, that does seem to be a bit of a theme. “Dying legions”, fewer and fewer with each passing year and all that. They try and balance that with good rules and sometimes they get it right but to be honest it’s a theme I could do without. Same with “all Dwarfs move slow”. It makes for poor game design limitations and there are better ways of doing it.

[Jedra]

Bolt throwers are very useful and cheap, and I use them quite frequently but I prefer to run them in pairs. However, they are generally NOT for targeting big blocks of infantry, which is what they're worst at.

Here's what they're good for:
1) Taking wounds off Big Scary Monsters, Chariots or otherwise tough multi-wound targets (2 wounds per shot, S6)
2) Monstrous units (including monstrous) cavalry/infantry - particularly if you can get a flank shot in
3) Taking out other warmachines (particularly the painful short range ones like hellfire volley guns)
4) Massive threat projection for lone characters that find themselves away from friendly units
5) clearing small units (either chaff or small threatening ones like Screamers of Tzeentch)

Firing them into a big block of infantry isn't going to do much and is your "last resort i have nothing better to do" option. I use the single shot far more frequently than the repeater shot, which TBH is better even against a block of infantry. For this, they're much better positioned on the wing than in the centre to help you get side-shots which are great against heavy cavalry or monstrous units. Reaper shot is good for clearing small light units only.

That being said my last couple lists haven't featured them because the characters are eating up a lot of points... they're certainly not a shoe in, but good if used well.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

People that are claiming they're a mainstay are probably remembering bolt throwers from past editions, where they didn't suffer the penalty for multiple shots, and were always 6 shots instead of D3+3 and were AP-2 (S4 with Armour Piercing). They were great for clearing chaff and were rarely used with the single shot profile, mostly because folks weren't bringing large monsters due to the prevalence of cannons. In a pinch, they were still decent for taking down monstrous infantry/cavalry with the single shot profile, but if you failed to wound any target in the sequence, the bolt was stopped and you couldn't wound any further models. I'd run at least two in all of my 8th edition games and they rarely failed to make their points back (70 points in that edition).

This edition, I haven't bothered with them much due to the inconsistent amount of shots and the penalty for multiple shots. I'd rather use the rare slot to put in 5 Sisters of Avelorn for the purpose of helping to clear chaff and take pot-shots at heavy cavalry.

[double_skulls]

The other side of the equation is that in TOW single shot is better against ranked up troops than in most previous editions, because you hit every rank now irrespective of whether you wound on previous ranks. Your hit roll is easier and the better AP means you are more likely to kill them. I think the numbers basically work out the 'break even' point with multi-shot vs single shot is two ranks T3 Sv4+ W1. Any more ranks, toughness, armour or wounds and single shot is better. The sort of targets that multi-shot are good against are vulnerable to S3 AP0 bows anyway, so you don't need the RBTs to hurt them. You'd get similar damage output from a unit of 8 archers to a multi-shot RBT. The cost is identical, but uses up 'core tax' and is generally harder for enemies to destroy.

[Sea Helm Jeff]

I usually bring 1 or 2, and they usually don't accomplish much. However, it sounds like I might not be using them correctly (I almost always use the multi shot).

I feel like war machines that rely on BS were hit a little too hard.

[Prince of Spires]

If you're using them for multi-shot, then in my opinion, there are better options for the points. 1 RBT gets you 5 Sisters of Averlorn.

In terms of shooting, you get (multi-shot):
3+D3 shots, 48'' range, BS 4 (with a -1 to Hit), S4, AP 1, AB 1
5 shots, 30'' range, BS 5, S3, AP1, AB2, ignores cover

The longer range matters at >30'' range obviously, and between 15'' and 24''. Otherwise, both are either at long or at short range. But even when the sisters are at long range and the RBT is in short range, the sisters will still hit more often, needing 3+ vs 4+. And that's without factoring in any cover. At short range, you're looking at 2+ vs 4+, or the sisters can move 5'' negating the range difference (somewhat).

The RBT will wound more often (with fewer hits), but the sisters are better than the RBT at getting through armour.

All in all, the sisters perform better and more reliable in multi-shot. They also move, have more wounds, can take the Ruby Ring, can be in bigger units, and can benefit more from magic. If you're multi-shooting, then you would almost always be better off with Sisters.

Single shot is an option we don't really have an alternative for. Which can be worth the investment. We don't have many S6, AP3, multi-wound2 options. Which means that if you're in a situation where you need S6 AP3 shots, then you have to take RBT. Single shots are a bit more reliable than multi-shots, I would expect to hit with about half of them at any given time, but that's about it.

The only problem with single shots is that they're not strong enough to deal with stuff you would want high S ranged attacks for. Take a random monster. You're often looking at T6, with something like 6 wounds. Being only S6 means that you're only wounding half the time. Combined with hitting half the time, you're only doing a wound every 4 shots, and that's before saves. Compare that to a cannon, which has the same range, but S8. You only misfire every 6 shots, then you wound T6 stuff on a 2+, and on average do the same nr of wounds before saves (though they're AP2, AB2, instead of AP3). All in all, it's a much more reliable way to deal with monsters. Assuming no saves on the T6 6W monster, you would need 12 RBT shots to kill one, and just a bit over 3 cannon shots.

[Giladis]

Or you can use a single shot against "normal" units. On average the BT will get back its points against those targets over a course of the game. Furthermore while targeting normal units one does not increase the threat level of the gaming piece until it is too late in most cases. Meaning more often then not BT will not be high priority targets for the opponent.

[double_skulls]

Unfortunately the RBT is just not as cost effective in that role as other things available in the list. Against T3 Sv5 regular archers are more cost efficient for example. Even at ranges between 16-23" 8 of them will do more damage to that unit than 1 RBT, and are a lot more survivable against 'war machine hunters'. Against T4 Sv5 the archers are still better at 24-30" or under 15"

[Jedra]

Combined with hitting half the time, you're only doing a wound every 4 shots, and that's before saves. Compare that to a cannon, which has the same range, but S8. You only misfire every 6 shots, then you wound T6 stuff on a 2+, and on average do the same nr of wounds before saves (though they're AP2, AB2, instead of AP3). All in all, it's a much more reliable way to deal with monsters. Assuming no saves on the T6 6W monster, you would need 12 RBT shots to kill one, and just a bit over 3 cannon shots.

Cannons miss lone models far more often than just when they misfire. Depending on base size and position they'll be hitting large targets 25-40% of the time compared to the 50-66% of the bolt thrower. And of course the boltthrower is better at taking out the cannon than the cannon is at taking it out.

The boltthrower's ability to finish off nearly dead units almost anywhere on the board is also not something to sneer at.

Cannons are clearly better at shooting units, but lone characters, monsters and warmachines boltthrowers have the edge - which can be boosted further with things like curse of arrow attraction.

Fundamentally the question isn't "is it good" but "what role does it fill". They are the cheapest high strength high ap hits we have and the most reliable outside of characters (yes I know chrace units exist: they are unreliable) which will be hitting from turn 1. Maybe that's not what you need in your list, but of it is at 80 points it's not something you can write off out of hand.

[double_skulls]

I think you are understating how effective Cannons are in comparison. Cannon targeting 10" from the back of a single mini will hit 20/36. This is better than a 4+ with a Bolt Thrower, but worse than 3+ at short range. Cannon have better S, so are more likely to wound T5 or higher targets. Single Shot does have AP-3, which personally I'd prefer over a Dwarf Cannon AP-2 and AB 2. Imperial Cannon with AP-3 and AB2 are marginally better for beating armour, but crucially have the D3+1 wounds, giving them 50% more wounds on average. Against ranked (or flanked) enemies Cannon make each hit at the same strength too. Cannon can also target characters within units (getting a LoS roll) and, as per the FAQ can target lone characters if they are on the strike point (about the same chance of this as a LoS).

RBTs do of course not misfire, which may limit the number of shots a Cannon would get off in comparison. Most of the armies I see have something to compensate for this (Engineers, Runes) so I would not give it a big weight.

I don't think I understand why you think RBTs are better at taking out Cannon than vice versa. Can you elaborate on that point? I would have thought better chance to wound and more ability to absorb wounds would make Cannon superior. At long range they are more likely to hit too.

The question for every element in the army ought to be a combination of how well does it synergise with the rest of the army and how cost effective is it at its role. If you want to build a 'gun line' HE army RBTs would be an essential element. I don't think those are optimal lists, and would struggle against a lot of armies.

[Jedra]

You... are correct on the numbers. Most of my opponents that use cannons have been targeting 8" back which is what I calculated on. It appears 10" gets better results so it's a 55% hit chance - marginally better than the long range RBT (although this is mostly offset by the chance of blowing up and/or losing turns of firing), and better at damaging as you say. My bad, thanks for pointing it out.

Having said that, only a dwarves as far as I can tell can take a regular cannon - although the Empire Great Cannon is undisputedly better than RBT at monster killing (probably even at a 3:2 ratio). I'm going to have a look through the various army lists, but I think we're the only BS4 bolt thrower out there and I can't think of many other long-range high strength/AP options that could argue for 3rd place in that role (Ushbati maybe?)

[Prince of Spires]

Combined with hitting half the time, you're only doing a wound every 4 shots, and that's before saves. Compare that to a cannon, which has the same range, but S8. You only misfire every 6 shots, then you wound T6 stuff on a 2+, and on average do the same nr of wounds before saves (though they're AP2, AB2, instead of AP3). All in all, it's a much more reliable way to deal with monsters. Assuming no saves on the T6 6W monster, you would need 12 RBT shots to kill one, and just a bit over 3 cannon shots.

Cannons miss lone models far more often than just when they misfire. Depending on base size and position they'll be hitting large targets 25-40% of the time compared to the 50-66% of the bolt thrower. And of course the boltthrower is better at taking out the cannon than the cannon is at taking it out.

My calculations: shooting a cannon at a perfectly lined up dragon. 4'' base, aiming 10'' from the back. Now it depends a bit on how you play, but there are 2 things to consider, which give 3 options. In 10'' from the back, do you hit when you roll a 10 on the first dice? And do you hit when you roll a 2 on the first, and then a 4 on the second?

If yes to both, then you have a 75% chance of hitting, and a 62.5% chance of wounding.
If either gives a no, then you can move it such that you aim 10.00001'' from the back, which means 2 followed by 4 misses (and other totals of 6''), but 10's always hit. Which gives you a 66,7% chance of hitting, and a 55.6% chance of wounding.

Both of these are much better than the 66.6% chance of hitting and 33.3% chance of wounding of a Bolt thrower (or at long range, 50% hitting, and 25% wounding). That's double to tripple the chance of wounding.

Worst case scenario for the cannon is if the dragon is sideways, which gives a 1.6'' base. In that case, you need 9'' or more on both artillery dice to hit (with 10'' from the back). This gives a 55.5% chance of hitting, and a 46.3% chance of wounding. Which is still better than the to wound % of the best case scenario for the boltthrower. What's more, angled this way, the dragon is severly hampered, because it's standing sideways, and you can't just pivor and carry on without losing a lot of movement.

It's only really against smaller bases that the boltthrower has about as much of a damage output. S6 vs S8 has a massive impact, really just halving the damage against T6.

[Prince of Spires]

Having said that, only a dwarves as far as I can tell can take a regular cannon - although the Empire Great Cannon is undisputedly better than RBT at monster killing (probably even at a 3:2 ratio). I'm going to have a look through the various army lists, but I think we're the only BS4 bolt thrower out there and I can't think of many other long-range high strength/AP options that could argue for 3rd place in that role (Ushbati maybe?)

We (and Dark Elves) indeed have the only BS4 bolt throwers. Which I think is the reason you don't see the other ones. Though you can actually make the Dwarven one +1S and ignore armour, for 5 pts less than a HE one, which feels like it would do better against dragons and the like. It would have -1 to hit, but +1 to wound, and no armour saves allowed. And of course, you could add an engineer, which lets you reroll 1's.

I would rate the Doomdiver above the RBT. I think you have a reasonable chance of landing the S8 hit, with D3+1 wounds, on a chariot sized base.

And Ushabti as well. They're less reliable than a RBT, being only BS3 and AP1, AB2 instead of AP3. However, they're also cheaper (you get about 3 for 2), and don't suffer from modifiers, so you can walk around all you want and ignore cover and long range (they're actually as reliable as a RBT at long range, they just have 13'' shorter effective range...). They would also have more wounds and can deal with most default warmachine hunters (being S4, T4, WS4).

[Jedra]

Despite being the same cost, the dark elves version is strictly worse at it doesn't have the single shot option. I know they're legacy but DE really got shafted this edition- so much of their stuff is just worse high elves fit the same or more points.

[Giladis]

Despite being the same cost, the dark elves version is strictly worse at it doesn't have the single shot option. I know they're legacy but DE really got shafted this edition- so much of their stuff is just worse high elves fit the same or more points.

They have been there already in the 4th through 6th editions.

[double_skulls]

My calculations: shooting a cannon at a perfectly lined up dragon. 4'' base, aiming 10'' from the back.

To keep it reasonably sane I'm just assuming a perfect alignment between the cannon and target base so we don't need to factor in angles. Crossing a large base at an angle will give slightly better results.

My previous 20/36 is for a 25mm based solo model. As 25mm is actually slightly less than 1" technically a 50mm base would not be hit by aiming 10" from the back and then getting 8 with no bounce (you'd be about 0.8mm short).

A typical dragon on a 100mm by 150mm base is slightly under 6", so if you aim 10" from the back, then 10 and 8 on the first die always hit. 6 on the first and 2 or more on the 2nd hits, 4 on the first you need 4 or more, then 2 followed by a 6 or more. For each first die then the number of chances from the 2nd die is 6+6+5+4+3 = 24 / 36, so 2/3 chance - exactly the same as a BS4 at short range. If you are at an angle you'll get another 3/36 which takes you up to 3/4. None of this takes into account Engineers, so both Empire and Dwarves are quite likely to reroll an initial misfire and potentially could reroll a bounce if they are going to miss. So in practice it probably over 80% chance of hitting.

[Mendaciun]

Dark elves have single shot? Wdym? Theirs is called a reaper bolt thrower but it's an weapon type of repeater bolt thrower.

I'd argue dwarf and goblin bs3 bolt throwers are better than high elf/dark elf ones. For a fair points comparison, we can use the dwarf one. 2 HE (160 points) is about 3 dwarf ones (165 points).

Shooting at long range, 2 HE bolt throwers have a chance to hit of 2 x 1/2, or avg 1 hit. 3 Dwarf bolt throwers have a chance to hit of 3 x 1/3, or avg 1 hit. So tie at long range

At short range, 2 HE bolt throwers have 2 x 2/3, or 1.33 hits. 3 dwarf bolt throwers have 3 x 1/2, or 1.5 hits. So dwarfs are better at short range.

Dwarf bolt throwers are tankier and harder to remove by shooting with 3 wounds, have more board presence due to being cheaper, has higher damage potential (hitting all 3 shots vs 2 shots), does better at under 24", and can win bolt thrower wars since a single bolt thrower hit can snipe a HE one but not the other way around.

This isn't even factoring in the cheaper goblin bolt thrower.

Only standout for the repeater bolt throwers is the option to multishot, which as discussed, is bad in comparison to sisters of avelorn. Elf bolt throwers pay a premium for the versatility of both options, and thus comes up lacking in both options.

[double_skulls]

Very true. Dwarf bolt throwers can be backed up by the Engineer too. If I'm playing Dwarves I'm firing cannon first and if none of the misfire using the reroll on a 1 for a bolt thrower seems like a good option.

[double_skulls]

I just saw this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0ManqR2h-M one Helblaster with Engineer for about the same as 2 RBTs. I know which I'd be picking....