Archer Detachments

All discussions related to Warhammer: The Old World go here, including army construction, comp creation, campaign and scenarios design, etc...
Post Reply
Message
Author
Jedra
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:05 am
Location: UK

Archer Detachments

#1 Post by Jedra »

I'm curious how people have found them. I have so far had no real joy from mine, and I'm 100% sure I'm playing them badly.

Does anyone have any good advice, tips or stories for using them well?
BrushmasterOfHoeth
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:12 am

Re: Archer Detachments

#2 Post by BrushmasterOfHoeth »

In one game they did perfrom very well. 5 archers got very lucky with their shots and killed several minotaurs in a few turns. But that was dice magic more than anything else 😂
User avatar
Morgen
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:23 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Archer Detachments

#3 Post by Morgen »

The advantages out militia has traditionally has been it's long range and slightly more reliable ability to hit, so it's not particularly powerful. You'd usually be looking to soften units up over wiping units out. Armor bane was a nice get compared to ages past.

Plus, unlike other armies, our archets are just normal elven militia so they're less terrible in melee compared to thier shooting. Not good, but less bad then a lot of people might expect. They don't need to avoid melee if a charge would be to your benefit and they're slightly more resistant to stuff people like to throw around as chaff.

As a detachment they aren't hurt too much by the requirements and restrictions and as it doesn't have a cost it's usually not a terrible idea. They're the same elf statline with different equipment so the supporting abilities might be viable given the situations.
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8385
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Archer Detachments

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

I don't really see much reason to take them. Note, nothing much wrong with either archers or spears as such (though spears aren't great, and the archer shooting can often be underwhelming). But I don't see much point in detachments for HE.

I feel like they'd hinder your deployment, since they might want to go in different places. And spears might want to move around which archers probably don't, which means they'll soon be out of detachment range. If you want a unit of spears that shoots, simply take LSG. It also feels like anything that you would want to charge archers into will also simply die against spears. Otherwise you'll probably just give up more victory points than you gain.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Tusk
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2024 4:35 pm

Re: Archer Detachments

#5 Post by Tusk »

you lose drops. so i hate them, its good to have so many chaff drops that they cant counter deploy you. i love the idea and the rules except for the drops thing.
Csjarrat
Posts: 955
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: Archer Detachments

#6 Post by Csjarrat »

You need some shooting in a list and you need to spend 25% of a list on core. To that end, archers and spears have a roll for generating ranks and shots.
Don't expect much of them and they won't fail you, but they will give you some ranged options for chipping wounds and occasionally count towards combat res
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
Jedra
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:05 am
Location: UK

Re: Archer Detachments

#7 Post by Jedra »

Prince of Spires wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:50 pm I feel like they'd hinder your deployment, since they might want to go in different places. And spears might want to move around which archers probably don't, which means they'll soon be out of detachment range. If you want a unit of spears that shoots, simply take LSG.
This TBH has been my experience. In being a detachment they lose value as chaff and lose flexibility. LSG work better for holding a position or slow advance with shooting (and gets their own stand and shoot already) and the counter charge is hard to position and has been pretty underwhelming for me the only time I pulled it off (against heavy infantry so they did not disruption the ranks)
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8385
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Archer Detachments

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

Csjarrat wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:21 pm You need some shooting in a list and you need to spend 25% of a list on core. To that end, archers and spears have a roll for generating ranks and shots.
Don't expect much of them and they won't fail you, but they will give you some ranged options for chipping wounds and occasionally count towards combat res
I agree that you probably want some shooting in your list. And that since we have to take core, you might as well bring a bunch of archers. However, I don't think bringing them as a detachment is the way to go.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
User avatar
Pash
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:37 am

Re: Archer Detachments

#9 Post by Pash »

I played my first game with Archer-darts this weekend vs some Screamy Vamps. They were surprisingly decent, given the investment. I ran mine with a champion but to be honest I think i'll drop that, because when they do lose combat, they usually need snake-eyes to survive anyway and the 5pts extra is probably better spent on another unit. The two units I ran (alongside a unit of 5xReavers) managed to distract a unit of Blood Knights for 3-4 turns and even managed to kill one (who came back...)! I can see the value in them now and I think for the sake of another 5pts, would prefer them over the Spear-dart.

Also, I ran them as standalone units, not Detachments, as I wanted the extra deployment drops.
"Hero Of The People" Scotland, 2024

Twitter:@kingpash

Glory to the Asur!
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8385
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Archer Detachments

#10 Post by Prince of Spires »

Pash wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:46 am I played my first game with Archer-darts this weekend vs some Screamy Vamps. They were surprisingly decent, given the investment. I ran mine with a champion but to be honest I think i'll drop that, because when they do lose combat, they usually need snake-eyes to survive anyway and the 5pts extra is probably better spent on another unit. The two units I ran (alongside a unit of 5xReavers) managed to distract a unit of Blood Knights for 3-4 turns and even managed to kill one (who came back...)! I can see the value in them now and I think for the sake of another 5pts, would prefer them over the Spear-dart.

Also, I ran them as standalone units, not Detachments, as I wanted the extra deployment drops.
Archer darts I can definitely see the value of. I'd also run them as cheaply as possible. It's a unit whoes role is to valiantly stand in the way of big scary stuff and then die. No use for a champ or any other bonuses. And yes, definitely not as detachments. You either want to have the extra throw-away drop to leave your opponent guessing what you'll do, or you want to drop them opposite the biggest enemy unit, which might not be where you want your spearmen to go.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
NightHawk45
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Archer Detachments

#11 Post by NightHawk45 »

A 1x5 Archer dart has the benefit of being able to shoot five shots into the enemy (pending range). So, If you need to change from a disruptor to a shooting unit you can do it without reforming
Jedra
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:05 am
Location: UK

Re: Archer Detachments

#12 Post by Jedra »

NightHawk45 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:37 am A 1x5 Archer dart has the benefit of being able to shoot five shots into the enemy (pending range). So, If you need to change from a disruptor to a shooting unit you can do it without reforming
How exactly? Line of sight is drawn from the front rank only and only the first model can shoot without at least doing a turn. Shooting rules are pretty unambiguous.

You could i guess get 3 off with volley fire if you don't move but not 5

"Therefore, when shooting with a unit you must determine line of sight for each and every model in the front rank. Normally, only models in the front rank of a unit can shoot. However, sometimes the rules will allow models in the rear ranks to shoot. In such cases, models in the rear ranks are able to see what the model at the front of their file can see.,"
Mendaciun
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed May 15, 2024 6:01 pm

Re: Archer Detachments

#13 Post by Mendaciun »

It's based on the volley fire rules, which state "half of the models in each rank other than the front rank....rounding up, can shoot" instead of "half of the other than the front rank, rounding up, can shoot". So you reach each rank up. An archer dart of 1x5 is 5 ranks. With volley fire, if the unit hasn't moved, half of the models, rounding up, of the back 4 ranks can shoot.
User avatar
Sea Helm Jeff
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2024 7:23 am

Re: Archer Detachments

#14 Post by Sea Helm Jeff »

Jedra wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:03 am
NightHawk45 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:37 am A 1x5 Archer dart has the benefit of being able to shoot five shots into the enemy (pending range). So, If you need to change from a disruptor to a shooting unit you can do it without reforming
How exactly? Line of sight is drawn from the front rank only and only the first model can shoot without at least doing a turn. Shooting rules are pretty unambiguous.

You could i guess get 3 off with volley fire if you don't move but not 5

"Therefore, when shooting with a unit you must determine line of sight for each and every model in the front rank. Normally, only models in the front rank of a unit can shoot. However, sometimes the rules will allow models in the rear ranks to shoot. In such cases, models in the rear ranks are able to see what the model at the front of their file can see.,"
If you round up half of each rank of a 1x5, they can all shoot.
Jedra
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:05 am
Location: UK

Re: Archer Detachments

#15 Post by Jedra »

That is a very weird reading of the phrasing and I'd be very surprised if that doesn't get FAQed/errataed.
User avatar
Pash
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:37 am

Re: Archer Detachments

#16 Post by Pash »

Jedra wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:53 pm That is a very weird reading of the phrasing and I'd be very surprised if that doesn't get FAQed/errataed.
It’s a very abusive reading of the rules and your opponent would likely be very upset with you if you were to push this. It’s a minor benefit, I do not suggest being that gamey for the sake of a couple of extra S3 bow shots. Don’t be that desperate. Be the better man/elf.
"Hero Of The People" Scotland, 2024

Twitter:@kingpash

Glory to the Asur!
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8385
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Archer Detachments

#17 Post by Prince of Spires »

Pash wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:53 pm It’s a very abusive reading of the rules and your opponent would likely be very upset with you if you were to push this.
Jedra wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:53 pm That is a very weird reading of the phrasing and I'd be very surprised if that doesn't get FAQed/errataed.
I disagree with both of these. Now, I've never run an archer dart, but to me the rules seem very clear and not abusive at all. Rules say that for volley fire you get half of the shots per rank rounded up. 7 models in a back rank give 4 shots, 5 models in a back rank give 3 shots. I don't think there's any argument about that. So a 3X7 unit with volley fire gets 7+4+4 = 15 shots and a 3X5 unit gets 11. Which means 3 models in a rank give 2 shots and 1 model in a rank gives 1 shot. I don't really see any issue with this (or why it would need or get an FAQ). If anything, the shooting with more ranks rules on BBB p 143 even specifically mention that you always round up if there's ever a question of who can shoot.

I also very much doubt many opponents would take a lot of issue with a few extra S3 shots. Now maybe, just maybe, if you run your whole core filled with only archer darts, they might object. Though I think they would mostly consider it a fun gimmick to see 10 of them on the table. But 1 archer dart gives you 4 BS4, S3 shots from the back ranks. That's at most 1 wound before saves in the best possible scenario. And the moment you move they're gone. There's nothing broken there.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Jedra
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:05 am
Location: UK

Re: Archer Detachments

#18 Post by Jedra »

The exact wording is "This special rule allows half of the models in each rank other thank the front rank (or front to ranks if the unit is on a hill) to fire over the heads of those in front"

I will grant that it is poorly wording making it ambiguous is if is:

1) Half of (all of the models in each rank after the firing ranks)
2) For each rank, divide the models in half and then add them up that's how many you get

However if you read it as 1 you have a very logical result - decreasing your frontage linearly decreases total shots.

On 2 you have a really bizarre pattern for super narrow units at narrow frontage - 4 wide gets fewer shots than 3 wide, but more than 2 wide, and all of them less than 1 wide.

A couple extra shots may not be huge, but actually it allows you to slot in archers into gaps that would otherwise cause movement challenges for larger units, and means you don't have to worry about blocking line of sight at all - there's plenty of better troops with volley fire out there as well for other army lists.

If an opponent insisted on 2 in a game we'd only move forward with a roll of over the rules, it's just not a logical reading.
Jedra
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:05 am
Location: UK

Re: Archer Detachments

#19 Post by Jedra »

Look at it this way. Let's pretend we're wood elves so the shooting is scary,and I'll round an inch to 25mm to simplify the maths

Say I've got 25 Glade Guard. Let's start by sticking them in one unit. 10 wide is about as wide as you can really use so let's do that. I get 10 shots for the front rank, and both readings above give me 8 shots for volley fire for a nice 18 shots at 10 inches wide

25 is big and inflexible for an Archer unit so let's split them up into 5x5. Assume reading 1. If I'm greedy and want them all to shoot, and I have no hills, then they have to go side by side. Assuming 1 inch apart this means they are 29" wide - that's huge, clearly bad given the 32: range as concentrating fire will be harder.

On reading 1 I can make some trade offs: shrink their frontage and lose some shots. Pick whatever makes sense.

On reading 2 I don't have to. Deploy them next to each other in 1x5 columns. Now all 25 only take up 8 inches - narrower than our block of 25 and hey look they get a full 25 shots with whatever scary magic arrows I decided I wanted (could be 50 shots even with the right arrows so an extra 14...)

When you add in cover and units it gets more obviously exploitative. For instance I can poke the head of the lead just past a high wall - now I'm getting full shots AND full cover. Or I can park a conga line between my infantry blocks. Full shots as the enemy advances and then my troops don't have to worry about complex maneuvers to get the combat troops to play its much simpler.

My point is this... the reading only looks like its not an exploit because you're only thinking about a couple of minimum sized average quality ranged troops. It is absolutely exploitable if you apply this generally.
User avatar
Pash
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:37 am

Re: Archer Detachments

#20 Post by Pash »

Agree with Jedgra. It might seem like a minor exploit but it’s reading the rules in such a way as would cause argument with most opponents not am familiar with this interpretation. At best, it’s not as intended, at worst - you’re cheating. And want for?

It’s not worth it. Don’t do it. You can be better than this.
"Hero Of The People" Scotland, 2024

Twitter:@kingpash

Glory to the Asur!
User avatar
Morgen
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:23 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Archer Detachments

#21 Post by Morgen »

Yeah, I'm not sure why they went with such a strange rule for volley fire either. It seems like it'd have been pretty easy to make it just extra attacks for ranged units.

Of course it's also weird that this kind of rule isn't more for the units with firearms over bows, so yeah.
User avatar
TyrrenAzureblade
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:55 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Archer Detachments

#22 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

Jedra brings up a good point. But in the case of having one or two 1x5 archer darts, it's not going to be game defining and I wouldn't get upset with an opponent if they brought those. If you want an FAQ on it, I'd urge you to submit an email to the FAQ account asking if this is intended, otherwise I think this'll fly under GW's radar.
NightHawk45
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Archer Detachments

#23 Post by NightHawk45 »

Jedra wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:34 pm The exact wording is "This special rule allows half of the models in each rank other thank the front rank (or front to ranks if the unit is on a hill) to fire over the heads of those in front"

I will grant that it is poorly wording making it ambiguous is if is:

1) Half of (all of the models in each rank after the firing ranks)
2) For each rank, divide the models in half and then add them up that's how many you get
Because it says the word "each" I don't think it's ambiguous at all.
"Allow half of the models in each rank ... to fire"

Then again in want this rule to work for me and so I will see it that way. Others may not.

A downside to this is once you start getting more rows to the dart ones at the back easily get out of range. If you put 5 of them next to the each other for a smaller front they did as smaller units and will cause others to panic/flee.

I played with 3 of these in one game and they just sat there the whole game like normally formed Archers.

I like the option of using them as bow archers or spearmen darts.

I probably won't play with Archer darts much because I don't normally play spearmen darts, but I want to learn to use them (and redirectors) more in 8th. But I won't hesitate to use them if I see a need..
NightHawk45
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Archer Detachments

#24 Post by NightHawk45 »

TyrrenAzureblade wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:45 pm Jedra brings up a good point. But in the case of having one or two 1x5 archer darts, it's not going to be game defining and I wouldn't get upset with an opponent if they brought those. If you want an FAQ on it, I'd urge you to submit an email to the FAQ account asking if this is intended, otherwise I think this'll fly under GW's radar.
Speaking of the FAQ I wonder when a new one will come out. I look forward to it.
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8385
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Archer Detachments

#25 Post by Prince of Spires »

Jedra wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:03 pm Look at it this way. Let's pretend we're wood elves so the shooting is scary,and I'll round an inch to 25mm to simplify the maths

Say I've got 25 Glade Guard. Let's start by sticking them in one unit. 10 wide is about as wide as you can really use so let's do that. I get 10 shots for the front rank, and both readings above give me 8 shots for volley fire for a nice 18 shots at 10 inches wide

25 is big and inflexible for an Archer unit so let's split them up into 5x5. Assume reading 1. If I'm greedy and want them all to shoot, and I have no hills, then they have to go side by side. Assuming 1 inch apart this means they are 29" wide - that's huge, clearly bad given the 32: range as concentrating fire will be harder.

On reading 1 I can make some trade offs: shrink their frontage and lose some shots. Pick whatever makes sense.

On reading 2 I don't have to. Deploy them next to each other in 1x5 columns. Now all 25 only take up 8 inches - narrower than our block of 25 and hey look they get a full 25 shots with whatever scary magic arrows I decided I wanted (could be 50 shots even with the right arrows so an extra 14...)
The thing with this example is that it's a pure hypothetical that ignores the reality of the game. yes, you get your 25 shots. However, now you have to move to get someone in your line of sight, and suddenly your 5 shots are reduced to 1. What's more, turning is hard since your own archer darts are in the way. Or you get charged and in stead of 10 stand & shoot shots, you get 1. Or you end up in combat and a whole 1 model gets to fight. One of the beauties of Glade Guards is that they can run rings around you. Using them as darts negates all that.
Jedra wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:34 pm 1) Half of (all of the models in each rank after the firing ranks)
2) For each rank, divide the models in half and then add them up that's how many you get
But 1 doesn't actually match the rules. They don't say "half of (all models in each rank after the first)". It says half of the models in each rank, rounding up. Those are two very different things.

They could have very simply said "half of all models behind the first rank" and have gotten your reading of the rules. They could have left out any reference to ranks behind the first for that. And yet they didn't. They specifically added in a reference to the ranks. They say that you take each rank, divide the number in half and round up.

The models in a rank are a clearly defined thing in the rules. They're one of the first things we run into in the rules, BBB p100. A rank in the rules is one of the horizontal rows of models. Half of the models in a rank, rounded up, then are taking that horizontal row, dividing it by 2 and rounding up. Again, it seems pretty clear to me. For volley fire, you do this for each rank, as stated in the volley fire rules.
Pash wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:31 pm Agree with Jedgra. It might seem like a minor exploit but it’s reading the rules in such a way as would cause argument with most opponents not am familiar with this interpretation. At best, it’s not as intended, at worst - you’re cheating. And want for?
This is just bad form. [-X Telling someone they're cheating just because they have a different, and very defensible reading of the rules isn't the way to go. There is no way to say what GW actually intended. Unless you happen to either be the writer of the rule or you have directly asked them, don't make such a claim. Until GW makes a direct ruling on this in an FAQ, both readings are equally valid, and you can't call either of them cheating.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
User avatar
Pash
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:37 am

Re: Archer Detachments

#26 Post by Pash »

If you have a "defensible reading of the rules" maybe it's because you're reading too much into it.

Old World rules are not tight-knit. There is naturally a gentleman's agreement on how to conduct yourself and most folk would agree that this interpretation is very iffy. If in doubt (and there is clearly a lot of doubt here), use the intrepretation that gives you the least benefit. I won't be using this gimmick until it's clarified. You do what you wish but let it be on your conciense.

Let's move on. We have better things to discuss than going over the same point over and over. [-o<
"Hero Of The People" Scotland, 2024

Twitter:@kingpash

Glory to the Asur!
User avatar
Turion Rilyaloce
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:51 am
Location: Tor Caled (Canada for reals)

Re: Archer Detachments

#27 Post by Turion Rilyaloce »

Pash wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 3:04 pm If you have a "defensible reading of the rules" maybe it's because you're reading too much into it.

Old World rules are not tight-knit. There is naturally a gentleman's agreement on how to conduct yourself and most folk would agree that this interpretation is very iffy. If in doubt (and there is clearly a lot of doubt here), use the intrepretation that gives you the least benefit. I won't be using this gimmick until it's clarified. You do what you wish but let it be on your conciense.

Let's move on. We have better things to discuss than going over the same point over and over. [-o<
Just wondering how many of most people you have confirmed this with?

It really doesn’t matter to anyone but you and your opponent, or in a tournament the organizers, but how do we make these authoritative statements with such confidence? If that’s your reading and you believe it’s correct, use it by all mean. But to then suggest not taking your interpretation is something that would leave a blemish on one’s conscience?

And why do you get to decide where discourse goes and when a discussion is over?
Take a voyage to Tor Caled and behold Prince Tûrion Rilyalocë and the mighty Laurëdraugnir as well as their Caledorian host.http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46899
Jedra
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:05 am
Location: UK

Re: Archer Detachments

#28 Post by Jedra »

FWIW I submitted a FAQ. The wording *is* ambiguous and is a classic example of scope ambiguity, I don't think there's any resolution apart from agreement with your opponent or organiser, or a ruling from GW.
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8385
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Archer Detachments

#29 Post by Prince of Spires »

Pash wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 3:04 pm If you have a "defensible reading of the rules" maybe it's because you're reading too much into it.

Old World rules are not tight-knit. There is naturally a gentleman's agreement on how to conduct yourself and most folk would agree that this interpretation is very iffy. If in doubt (and there is clearly a lot of doubt here), use the intrepretation that gives you the least benefit. I won't be using this gimmick until it's clarified. You do what you wish but let it be on your conciense.
The thing is, I have only a few regular opponents. We're pretty much a closed group. And we always simply played it like this. We read the rules as being "take each rank, half the models rounding up and that's who can shoot". No one tries to get an advantage or even considered that there was a different interpretation. It's simply how the rule is read.

Having said that, I did go back to look at 8th edition rules, where we also got volley fire, though it's worded slightly differently. The 8th edition rule says:

Code: Select all

Half the models in the third and any subsequent ranks, rounding up, are allowed to shoot.
It's slightly different from the current "half of the models in each rank other than the front rank, rounding up, can shoot".

However, the interesting thing here is that the 8th edition rule was FAQ-ed:

Code: Select all

Q: If I have a unit of 20 archers, 5 files wide and 4 ranks 
deep, how many shots would I get using the Volley Fire special 
rule? Would it be 15 (first two ranks plus half of the remaining 
models, rounding up) or 16 (first two ranks plus half of each rank, 
rounding up)?(p78)
A:15 shots.
Of course, you can argue that the different wording means that the two rules are different (and they are). But if we assume that the intention of the rule is the same, then that would mean an acher dart gets 3 shots, not 5.
Pash wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 3:04 pm There is naturally a gentleman's agreement on how to conduct yourself and most folk would agree that this interpretation is very iffy. If in doubt (and there is clearly a lot of doubt here), use the intrepretation that gives you the least benefit. I won't be using this gimmick until it's clarified. You do what you wish but let it be on your conciense.
I'll say it again. Though the 8th ed. FAQ suggests that your interpretation is correct, simply assuming that whoever disagrees with you on a rule is willfully cheating to gain an advantage is bad form. The fact that it needs an FAQ and that we can argue over it means that the rule is ambiguous, and that there is a very real chance that someone simply read it differently and thus came to a different conclusion. There is nothing iffy or ungentelmanly about it. It's simply humans interpreting things differently.

Attacking a person because they have a different interpretation is not the way to go. It's an ad hominem response, and if anything, it weakens, not strengthens your argument.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Post Reply