1500 Griffon Prince

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Velmates
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1500 Griffon Prince

#1 Post by Velmates »

I was toying with a list for the upcoming weekend to try (against Skaven as it seems). Please feel free to comment (in a bit of a vacuum - I don't have too much experience with TOW right now so unit roles and overall strategy varies from game to game).

Another variation of this list replaced the SM with a Frostheart Phoenix (reduced Sisters etc to fit the points). What do you think?

===
High Elf Realms [1497 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, High Elf Realms
===

++ Characters [548 pts] ++

Prince [363 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- General
- Griffon
- Ogre Blade
- Dragon Helm
- Seed of Rebirth
- Pure of Heart

Archmage [185 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- On foot
- Pure of Heart
- High Magic

++ Core Units [389 pts] ++

8 Silver Helms [229 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Shields
- Standard bearer [War Banner]
- Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers [80 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Light armour

5 Ellyrian Reavers [80 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Hand weapons (Hooves)
- Light armour

++ Special Units [373 pts] ++

5 Dragon Princes [199 pts]
- Lance
- Full plate armour
- Barding
- Shield
- Standard bearer
- Musician

12 Swordmasters of Hoeth [174 pts]
- Sword of Hoeth
- Heavy armour
- Musician

++ Rare Units [187 pts] ++

10 Sisters of Avelorn [187 pts]
- Bows of Avelorn
- Light armour
- High Sister [Ruby Ring of Ruin]

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]
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TyrrenAzureblade
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#2 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

I'm really interested to hear how your list does! But one important observation from my experiences versus Skaven is that you're probably going to go up against a lot model-heavy units. If one of your cavalry charges fails to force a Fall Back in Good Order or a Flee, you're going to struggle in the grind with both the Silver Helms and the Dragon Princes if you're forced to Follow Up or receive a charge. Clanrats have some staying power against S3 attacks with light armor and shields. Hopefully you can blow some holes in those big blocks with a well aimed Fiery Convocation and with the Sisters before you drive your cavalry into them. Your highest Unit Strength seems to be 16 with the Silver Helms, I hope your opponent doesn't capitalize on that.
Mendaciun
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#3 Post by Mendaciun »

You sadly aren't allowed to bring both a prince and Archmage at 1500 points as they are 0-1 per 1k for either of them. Maybe downgrade for a noble on griffon?
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Velmates
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#4 Post by Velmates »

Hm, yeah, unit strength was and is still a concern in general. I could, ofc, drop the griffon in order to free some points from HQ, however, the whole list will change then.

Against Skaven, would you rather go infantry in core for the bodies? SG? Maybe SG but keep the griffon...?
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TyrrenAzureblade
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#5 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

Personally I think a lot of players are undervaluing infantry overall this edition. In this match up, I've had great luck with blocks of infantry. At 1500 points I've run an Archmage (lv.4, High Magic, Warden of Saphery), Griffon Noble BSB (Pure of Heart), 20 spearmen (Shieldwall, full command), 20 Archers, 20 Swordmasters (full command), and then your choice of additional hammer. I've used White Lions, but have wanted to try Dragon Princes in this additional hammer role. Or two Lion Chariots could be a good time. You could try a core of Sea Guard, but I find having the freedom to tie something up with the spearmen while my archers take an overwatch role and pick targets of opportunity has been invaluable. I kinda think Sea Guard are a trap, but folks seem to swear by them, so maybe don't take my word for it. Definitely keep the Griffon for the 18" ld9 bubble with Pure of Heart, not to mention Terror is good to have around. Don't want to find yourself on the otherside of the table looking down the barrel of a Hellpit Abomination without something to tangle with it. Swordmasters with Walk Between Worlds are good for dealing with a Hellpit Abomination though. Their best attack for dealing with infantry, Avalanche of Flesh, doesn't have the Magical Attacks tag, so it has to resort to using it's random D6+1 standard attacks, which have to roll to hit at WS3.
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Prince of Spires
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#6 Post by Prince of Spires »

If you're designing a list specifically against Skaven, then I think Phoenix Guard might be your best choice. With 2 attacks in later round (or if they haven't charged), you're better at grinding down larger units. The S4 is less of a handicap against the T3 models you could be facing. AP1, AB1 should be enough as well, though you could always give them the razor banner. With Full Plate and the 6+ ward, you're about as durable as you can get. And Fear might even pay off every now and then.
Mendaciun wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:04 pm You sadly aren't allowed to bring both a prince and Archmage at 1500 points as they are 0-1 per 1k for either of them. Maybe downgrade for a noble on griffon?
Good point :)
TyrrenAzureblade wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:41 pm Personally I think a lot of players are undervaluing infantry overall this edition.
I think the main issues with infantry are monsters, mobility, and lack of step-up combined with the initiative bonus for charging.

The big monster just stomp pretty much everything. Yes, you can build a big infantry unit that auto-wins combat against most monsters on static res alone. But when you need an average of 130 WL attacks to kill a prince on star dragon, then you're not going to kill that thing. And with fly(10), your big infantry unit is never going to catch him unless he wants to be caught.

And you'll be receiving the charge in most cases against cavalry and chariots and the like. After all, if you catch a unit that's faster, then your opponent made a mistake. When you receive that charge, your opponent likely goes first. He kills most models in your front rank, and you don't get to attack back. No matter how great your infantry model is, if it can't hit back, then it's not going to win combat. You then either run or fall back, and your opponent gets to do the exact same thing again.
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Velmates
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#7 Post by Velmates »

Mendaciun wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:04 pm You sadly aren't allowed to bring both a prince and Archmage at 1500 points as they are 0-1 per 1k for either of them. Maybe downgrade for a noble on griffon?
Oh. Actually, I didn't notice. Thank you for pointing that out.
Okay, then the whole thread doesn't really make sense as the list will look similar to Tyrren's as I will have to use a Noble instead of the Prince.

But thanks for the food for thought. I will try to decide between:

- infantry/spearmen core as soft anvil and DP or SM as hammer
- core SH pseudo-hammer and PG anvil
- downgrade AM to mage and go for the Prince (in SH hammer or on Griffon)
- OR downgrade Prince to Noble but stay on Griffon for 18" PoH LD 9 bubble (maybe better as AM is strong in 1.5k - only pity the Ogre Blade which won't be possible on a Noble).
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BrushmasterOfHoeth
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#8 Post by BrushmasterOfHoeth »

Mendaciun wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:04 pm
- OR downgrade Prince to Noble but stay on Griffon for 18" PoH LD 9 bubble (maybe better as AM is strong in 1.5k - only pity the Ogre Blade which won't be possible on a Noble).
I am sure that the lvl 4 archmage + noble will have a bigger impact than a lvl 2 mage + prince with ogre blade.
IMO +2 spells, +2 to casting and dispelling can swing a game more than the extra wounds from the melee prince.
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Prince of Spires
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#9 Post by Prince of Spires »

BrushmasterOfHoeth wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 6:43 am
Mendaciun wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:04 pm
- OR downgrade Prince to Noble but stay on Griffon for 18" PoH LD 9 bubble (maybe better as AM is strong in 1.5k - only pity the Ogre Blade which won't be possible on a Noble).
I am sure that the lvl 4 archmage + noble will have a bigger impact than a lvl 2 mage + prince with ogre blade.
IMO +2 spells, +2 to casting and dispelling can swing a game more than the extra wounds from the melee prince.
I agree here. In my experience, lvl2 mages aren't great. Many spells are hard to cast for them (though you do get 1 reroll per turn with Lileath's blessing, so you're slightly better than other lvl2 mages). And the extra +2 to cast and dispell, combined with a bigger dispell range of a lvl4 means that most lvl4 mages will dispell whatever you do manage to cast. And they can stay outside of your dispell range, meaning dispelling will be hard. They just aren't really worth it.

Of course, if you would increase the hitting power of the prince, then it changes again. But that's because a Star Dragon is a much more formidable threat than a griffon. I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing a star dragon in a 1500pts list, cause I think it will make for relatively boring battles. But that's just me.
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Velmates
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Re: 1500 Griffon Prince

#10 Post by Velmates »

Honestly, I did not even consider a Star Dragon. I make lists with a tad of competitiveness for the only reason that I like pondering combinations and have fun playing. And this includes not (only) losing because the list was poorly thought out. But I won't force tournament lists just for getting advantage.

That being said, I will keep the AM and switch to a Noble.

Core variation
AM, Noble on Griffon, 5 DP, 14 SM, 10 Sisters + either...

1st option: 9 SH + 2x 5 Reavers in core
2nd option: 20 Spears, 10 Archers, 5 Reavers in core

Character and elite variation
Either of the two options from above + ... mounted Noble (in SH) instead of Griffon + Lion Chariot as elite choice (so get a LC but lose the Griffon).

Any more input? Thanks guys, I highly appreciate your thoughts and experience.
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