Ielthan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:57 am
My point was that frankly the monsters are just so much better than any infantry unit, or even cavalry unit. At the moment in any Old World competitive list it's very hard to look beyond maxing characters on flying monsters. Infantry and more conventional armies (which I'll probably take to a tournament anyway) are fine for casual games, but realistically I suspect tournament lists are going to mostly look more like the one I posted.
May I return us to the Monster Mash question?
Challenges: a remedy for monsters?
On page 209 of the rulebook, under "Characters In Combat" it is written that "In combat, a character that has joined a unit... Can only have Impact Hits or Stomp Attacks directed against them if there are fewer than five rank and file models in the unit."
I've then read through the Challenge rules (210-211). There is some introductory text under "Fighting A Challenge" which reads as follows: "Once a challenge has been accepted, the two combatants will direct all of their attacks against one another, in Initiative order. Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models engaged in the same combat cannot direct their attacks against either of the duelling models" (p.211). The thrust of this section by my reading is that the challengers must fight each other and not other models in the same combat, that other models cannot allocate attacks to the challengers, and that the challengers should be moved into base to base contact unless to do so would be impracticable.
In the section on "Challenges & Mounts" (p.211) it is written only that "If either participant in a challenge is mounted, their mount (including the crew of a chariot) must direct its attacks against the other participant."
I do not believe that either of the rules quoted from p.211 provide a deliberate exception to the ruling on p. 209 quoted above. The matter is not touched upon in the recent FAQ.
If my reading is correct, your best defence against behemoth monsters is to field defensive characters in high-static res units, challenge them out, and benefit from the ranks and flags whilst rendering them unable to make stomp attacks against your hero.
What do we think?
TyrrenAzureblade wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:52 pm
Ielthan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:35 pm
What are people's thoughts on seaguard and the best size of unit, way to make use of naval discipline etc.
I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting that they are the pick of the core units when equipped with the razor standard, I can see the logic to some extent, but I'm always a little skeptical with seaguard.
For my Core choices, I'm going back to an older edition mindset of packing it with Archers, supplementing with Reavers for chaff, and maybe MSU Silverhelms if there are points leftover for flank charges. My anvil so far has been Phoenix Guard, I'm not bothering with Spearmen or Lothern Sea Guard. Sea Guard losing their shooting once they're in combat (which if they're your anvil unit is where you actually want them) isn't worth the points for me. I take a dedicated shooting unit with Archers that can keep firing and helping with chaff while my anvil gets to do what it's there for.
If Naval Discipline were a Reform instead of a Redress the Ranks maneuver, I might be more interested in them. But being limited to changing their frontage by a maximum of five models makes choosing their formation a real pickle. If you have 20 (which seems reasonable for most points limits), are you arraying them 20x1wide to get all your shots with a Stand & Shoot reaction, but then only being able to Redress to a 15x2 (with only five models in the second rank)? Are you setting them up 10x2 so you can redress into 5x4, and getting only 10 shots for the Stand & Shoot reaction? Something in between those two?
Maybe there's another way to play them other than an anvil unit meant to take and hold a charge, but I'm not seeing it, but that could very well be my lack of imagination though.
I don't think it's your lack of imagination Tyrren. Everything you've said is true. It's the curse of the dual purpose unit: if you're performing one role you're probably not performing the other. In either case points are wasted. My personal hope is that the benefits of a couple of rounds of shooting plus the combat utility of Stand & Shoot (adding to combat res now!) justifies the extra expense over spears or archers. One key resource other than points is space: units take up a lot of frontage, especially now they have wider bases, so cramming more capability into less space has an economy all of its own.
The Razor Standard stacks on them very nicely assuming it isn't needed elsewhere. Seaguard roll a lot of dice. And if you're wounding on 6s anyway half the time, you may as well get some AP out of it!