A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

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Prince of Spires
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#541 Post by Prince of Spires »

Dodoroq wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:23 pm
Prince of Spires wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:06 pm A character and a unit can shoot at different targets. Is in the characters and shooting rules somewhere if I recall correctly.
This helped me found it, thanks, but it works different. Core Book, p.209:
Characters & Shooting
If a character equipped with a missile weapon has joined a unit equipped with missile weapons, both must shoot at the same target, using their own characteristics.
Note that this only applies to missile weapons, not to Magic Missile or Magical Vortex spells.


Which looks like "if character has shooting weapon, he shoots with the unit; if he has spells, he shoots the spells at a different moment doing the whole targeting procedure."
The interpretation may also stretch further to "when two characters with ranged weapons join a unit without ranged weapons, they will have to shoot on the same target". This all may be kind of stupid as the weapons may have completely different ranges, but it is unfortunately in the rules...
Interesting thing is if two mages are in the same unit, each can cast on different target as they do the casting rolls each on his own, one by one.
Thanks for the correction. I remembered it was in that section, I just remembered the actual rule incorrectly... Just shows I shouldn't go from memory...
Ielthan wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:14 am I'm a little surprised on the horn of isha interpretation, I would have thought the "one use" includes the test, so if you fail it it's gone. Another thing for the faq I guess. I don't remember a previous instance of a one use item having any kind of multiple attempts.
The moment I read the rule for the horn (and the other items which require a test before use), I wondered what would happen when the test is failed. I haven't found a definitive answer yet. And I can see the argument both ways. What I wrote was just an opinion, based on the wording of "make a test to use the item". But that's not the strongest of arguments in my opinion. Here's to hoping it ends up in an FAQ.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#542 Post by Csjarrat »

Always difficult changing over from editions because it's not necessarily good to use precedent from earlier editions.
If the test is to be able to use, then you fail and don't use it. You succeed and you do. Keeps it simple and actually worth 25 points that way
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#543 Post by Ielthan »

What are people's thoughts on seaguard and the best size of unit, way to make use of naval discipline etc.

I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting that they are the pick of the core units when equipped with the razor standard, I can see the logic to some extent, but I'm always a little skeptical with seaguard.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#544 Post by Csjarrat »

Ielthan wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:35 pm What are people's thoughts on seaguard and the best size of unit, way to make use of naval discipline etc.

I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting that they are the pick of the core units when equipped with the razor standard, I can see the logic to some extent, but I'm always a little skeptical with seaguard.
I think you need enough to warrant the investment in the banner. Given 50% of your shots are going to miss at long range and a further 50%of those will fail to wound a t3 model, you need 20 shots at long range to get 5 wounds on t3. 20 shots is more than 20 models given you lose a few from your ranks due to volley fire too, so what, maybe 25-30 ISH is a good number if you want to use the banner for shooting?
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#545 Post by Pash »

Ielthan wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:35 pm What are people's thoughts on seaguard and the best size of unit, way to make use of naval discipline etc.

I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting that they are the pick of the core units when equipped with the razor standard, I can see the logic to some extent, but I'm always a little skeptical with seaguard.
Two units of 5x Reavers and fill the rest of your core with Seaguard. Minus a Razor banner and full command - that’s how many Seaguard you should take. Seems like an efficient way to spend core tax, unless you’re going down the Handmaiden route.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#546 Post by Ielthan »

Csjarrat wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:46 pm I think you need enough to warrant the investment in the banner. Given 50% of your shots are going to miss at long range and a further 50%of those will fail to wound a t3 model, you need 20 shots at long range to get 5 wounds on t3. 20 shots is more than 20 models given you lose a few from your ranks due to volley fire too, so what, maybe 25-30 ISH is a good number if you want to use the banner for shooting?
Yeah these are fair points. I thought maybe a unit of 21 in a 2.5k game was an interesting option, but at 2k I'm not so sure. I still think the razor standard is best on a bsb in a biggish (approx. 20) unit of sisters, turns them into a crazy threat.
Pash wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:15 pm
Ielthan wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:35 pm What are people's thoughts on seaguard and the best size of unit, way to make use of naval discipline etc.

I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting that they are the pick of the core units when equipped with the razor standard, I can see the logic to some extent, but I'm always a little skeptical with seaguard.
Two units of 5x Reavers and fill the rest of your core with Seaguard. Minus a Razor banner and full command - that’s how many Seaguard you should take. Seems like an efficient way to spend core tax, unless you’re going down the Handmaiden route.
So assuming no upgrades to the reavers that's 24 seaguard in a 2k list. That's a fairly big unit. How many ranks would you set them up in? Remember redress the ranks only lets them move 5 models so you can't make a big adjustment.

So far in the lists I'm writing I'm finding it hard to look past 7 Silverhelms with full command & war banner, 1 unit of reavers with skirmish and bows (mage bunker), 21 spearmen full command and spearwall (anvil). A BSB with great weapon and Battle banner goes in the silverhelms giving them a ton of static res and significantly more threat. Increasingly I think silver helms are really good in this edition, there is so little in the game that has better than ap2, so that 3+ save is actually not bad at all. I sort of wonder if make the unit 11 strong, or having 2 units of 7 and 8 may be better altogether.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#547 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

Ielthan wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:35 pm What are people's thoughts on seaguard and the best size of unit, way to make use of naval discipline etc.

I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting that they are the pick of the core units when equipped with the razor standard, I can see the logic to some extent, but I'm always a little skeptical with seaguard.
For my Core choices, I'm going back to an older edition mindset of packing it with Archers, supplementing with Reavers for chaff, and maybe MSU Silverhelms if there are points leftover for flank charges. My anvil so far has been Phoenix Guard, I'm not bothering with Spearmen or Lothern Sea Guard. Sea Guard losing their shooting once they're in combat (which if they're your anvil unit is where you actually want them) isn't worth the points for me. I take a dedicated shooting unit with Archers that can keep firing and helping with chaff while my anvil gets to do what it's there for.

If Naval Discipline were a Reform instead of a Redress the Ranks maneuver, I might be more interested in them. But being limited to changing their frontage by a maximum of five models makes choosing their formation a real pickle. If you have 20 (which seems reasonable for most points limits), are you arraying them 20x1wide to get all your shots with a Stand & Shoot reaction, but then only being able to Redress to a 15x2 (with only five models in the second rank)? Are you setting them up 10x2 so you can redress into 5x4, and getting only 10 shots for the Stand & Shoot reaction? Something in between those two?

Maybe there's another way to play them other than an anvil unit meant to take and hold a charge, but I'm not seeing it, but that could very well be my lack of imagination though.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#548 Post by Pash »

Ielthan wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:44 pm So assuming no upgrades to the reavers that's 24 seaguard in a 2k list. That's a fairly big unit. How many ranks would you set them up in? Remember redress the ranks only lets them move 5 models so you can't make a big adjustment.
I would normally aim to have the 2 ranks deep, so in this case 12-wide and on a hill. That way they can all shoot and all attack while charged. S3 isn’t very impressive but the razor banner should help ping off enough wounds to counteract the static red of anything comparable.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#549 Post by Seredain »

Ielthan wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:57 amMy point was that frankly the monsters are just so much better than any infantry unit, or even cavalry unit. At the moment in any Old World competitive list it's very hard to look beyond maxing characters on flying monsters. Infantry and more conventional armies (which I'll probably take to a tournament anyway) are fine for casual games, but realistically I suspect tournament lists are going to mostly look more like the one I posted.
Chaps,

May I return us to the Monster Mash question?

Challenges: a remedy for monsters?

On page 209 of the rulebook, under "Characters In Combat" it is written that "In combat, a character that has joined a unit... Can only have Impact Hits or Stomp Attacks directed against them if there are fewer than five rank and file models in the unit."

I've then read through the Challenge rules (210-211). There is some introductory text under "Fighting A Challenge" which reads as follows: "Once a challenge has been accepted, the two combatants will direct all of their attacks against one another, in Initiative order. Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models engaged in the same combat cannot direct their attacks against either of the duelling models" (p.211). The thrust of this section by my reading is that the challengers must fight each other and not other models in the same combat, that other models cannot allocate attacks to the challengers, and that the challengers should be moved into base to base contact unless to do so would be impracticable.

In the section on "Challenges & Mounts" (p.211) it is written only that "If either participant in a challenge is mounted, their mount (including the crew of a chariot) must direct its attacks against the other participant."

I do not believe that either of the rules quoted from p.211 provide a deliberate exception to the ruling on p. 209 quoted above. The matter is not touched upon in the recent FAQ.

If my reading is correct, your best defence against behemoth monsters is to field defensive characters in high-static res units, challenge them out, and benefit from the ranks and flags whilst rendering them unable to make stomp attacks against your hero.

What do we think?

TyrrenAzureblade wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:52 pm
Ielthan wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:35 pm What are people's thoughts on seaguard and the best size of unit, way to make use of naval discipline etc.

I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting that they are the pick of the core units when equipped with the razor standard, I can see the logic to some extent, but I'm always a little skeptical with seaguard.
For my Core choices, I'm going back to an older edition mindset of packing it with Archers, supplementing with Reavers for chaff, and maybe MSU Silverhelms if there are points leftover for flank charges. My anvil so far has been Phoenix Guard, I'm not bothering with Spearmen or Lothern Sea Guard. Sea Guard losing their shooting once they're in combat (which if they're your anvil unit is where you actually want them) isn't worth the points for me. I take a dedicated shooting unit with Archers that can keep firing and helping with chaff while my anvil gets to do what it's there for.

If Naval Discipline were a Reform instead of a Redress the Ranks maneuver, I might be more interested in them. But being limited to changing their frontage by a maximum of five models makes choosing their formation a real pickle. If you have 20 (which seems reasonable for most points limits), are you arraying them 20x1wide to get all your shots with a Stand & Shoot reaction, but then only being able to Redress to a 15x2 (with only five models in the second rank)? Are you setting them up 10x2 so you can redress into 5x4, and getting only 10 shots for the Stand & Shoot reaction? Something in between those two?

Maybe there's another way to play them other than an anvil unit meant to take and hold a charge, but I'm not seeing it, but that could very well be my lack of imagination though.
I don't think it's your lack of imagination Tyrren. Everything you've said is true. It's the curse of the dual purpose unit: if you're performing one role you're probably not performing the other. In either case points are wasted. My personal hope is that the benefits of a couple of rounds of shooting plus the combat utility of Stand & Shoot (adding to combat res now!) justifies the extra expense over spears or archers. One key resource other than points is space: units take up a lot of frontage, especially now they have wider bases, so cramming more capability into less space has an economy all of its own.

The Razor Standard stacks on them very nicely assuming it isn't needed elsewhere. Seaguard roll a lot of dice. And if you're wounding on 6s anyway half the time, you may as well get some AP out of it!

Cheers,

S
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#550 Post by NHB »

Reg Sea Guard: Steve from Mountain Miniatures was first "OMG" reading the rule -> that is so great -> auto include. Playing the rule -> not even worth it. (why would you take aways Attacks from your unit?)...

For me the peek-a-bo strategy seems still valid. (SM or WL are hiding behind the 10x2 SG, they get charged and reform to 5x4, Next turn the SM or WL can flank charge.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#551 Post by NHB »

One topic I haven't seen discussed is:

You can "Courage of Aenarion" your Prince on Star Dragon, (or any other unit for that matter) then run away out of Dispel Range. The opponent cannot wizardly dispel. Because he has to be in Range of the wizard who cast - not the actual taget.... Fated 11+ is unlikely....
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#552 Post by Pash »

NHB wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:37 pm One topic I haven't seen discussed is:

You can "Courage of Aenarion" your Prince on Star Dragon, (or any other unit for that matter) then run away out of Dispel Range. The opponent cannot wizardly dispel. Because he has to be in Range of the wizard who cast - not the actual taget.... Fated 11+ is unlikely....
Same reason all Remains In Play spells are amazing. Just look at vortices e.g. Pillar Of Flame. Cast it, it moves in each start of turn sub-phase D6" in the direction of your choosing, causing D3+3 S3 AP-2 hits. That's not too shabby at all!
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#553 Post by Seredain »

NHB wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:37 pm One topic I haven't seen discussed is:

You can "Courage of Aenarion" your Prince on Star Dragon, (or any other unit for that matter) then run away out of Dispel Range. The opponent cannot wizardly dispel. Because he has to be in Range of the wizard who cast - not the actual taget.... Fated 11+ is unlikely....
Good catch!

So poor Drain Magic is rather the unwanted step child of the RiP spells...
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#554 Post by Ielthan »

NHB wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:18 pm Reg Sea Guard: Steve from Mountain Miniatures was first "OMG" reading the rule -> that is so great -> auto include. Playing the rule -> not even worth it. (why would you take aways Attacks from your unit?)...

For me the peek-a-bo strategy seems still valid. (SM or WL are hiding behind the 10x2 SG, they get charged and reform to 5x4, Next turn the SM or WL can flank charge.
yes this seems an interesting way to use them, although if your opponent knows the naval discipline rule I can't see them falling into the trap. I'm not convinced with their shooting as it seems so inefficient, and they have just a 24" range so maybe they'll get 2 rounds which won't achieve much, and there's a good chance chaff (their best target) won't be in their front arc.
Last edited by Ielthan on Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#555 Post by Ielthan »

NHB wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:37 pm One topic I haven't seen discussed is:

You can "Courage of Aenarion" your Prince on Star Dragon, (or any other unit for that matter) then run away out of Dispel Range. The opponent cannot wizardly dispel. Because he has to be in Range of the wizard who cast - not the actual taget.... Fated 11+ is unlikely....
This is pretty funny. I'm thinking unbreakable great eagles could be the most annoying redirector ever.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#556 Post by Ielthan »

What are people's thoughts on spearmen? I need to test them but they seem decent and cheapish, a fairly reliable unit at taking a charge with spearwall, and as mentioned before courage of aenarion is a possibility. I'm not sure about their formation, is 7x3 worth it over 5x4?
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#557 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

Seredain wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:13 pm On page 209 of the rulebook, under "Characters In Combat" it is written that "In combat, a character that has joined a unit... Can only have Impact Hits or Stomp Attacks directed against them if there are fewer than five rank and file models in the unit."

I've then read through the Challenge rules (210-211). There is some introductory text under "Fighting A Challenge" which reads as follows: "Once a challenge has been accepted, the two combatants will direct all of their attacks against one another, in Initiative order. Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models engaged in the same combat cannot direct their attacks against either of the duelling models" (p.211). The thrust of this section by my reading is that the challengers must fight each other and not other models in the same combat, that other models cannot allocate attacks to the challengers, and that the challengers should be moved into base to base contact unless to do so would be impracticable.

In the section on "Challenges & Mounts" (p.211) it is written only that "If either participant in a challenge is mounted, their mount (including the crew of a chariot) must direct its attacks against the other participant."

I do not believe that either of the rules quoted from p.211 provide a deliberate exception to the ruling on p. 209 quoted above. The matter is not touched upon in the recent FAQ.

If my reading is correct, your best defence against behemoth monsters is to field defensive characters in high-static res units, challenge them out, and benefit from the ranks and flags whilst rendering them unable to make stomp attacks against your hero.

What do we think?
Impact Hits and Stomp Attacks are attacks that are attributed to the mount, therefore must be directed to the opposing challenger. I don't believe that's unclear.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#558 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

Ielthan wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:36 pm What are people's thoughts on spearmen? I need to test them but they seem decent and cheapish, a fairly reliable unit at taking a charge with spearwall, and as mentioned before courage of aenarion is a possibility. I'm not sure about their formation, is 7x3 worth it over 5x4?
In my earlier builds and first couple of games, I would fill out my core with a 30 model unit of Spearmen, 20 Archers, and Reavers. If forced to pick between Spearmen and Lothern Sea Guard, I'd go for a larger block of Spearmen for the same points. Like with Sea Guard, Martial Prowess and Thrusting Spears getting +1I when charged make for a very prickly unit, and having beefy fighting ranks to the front, flanks, and rear help so I formed them up 6x5 for 13 attacks to the front, and 9-10 attacks from the flanks. Shieldwall didn't come into play in those games, but I always made sure to buy it. They were great for holding and in fact won quite a few combats. In future lists I may go back to Spearmen instead of Phoenix Guard to field a unit of White Lions instead to see how they perform.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#559 Post by sparkytrypod »

Seredain wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 4:57 pm
NHB wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:37 pm One topic I haven't seen discussed is:

You can "Courage of Aenarion" your Prince on Star Dragon, (or any other unit for that matter) then run away out of Dispel Range. The opponent cannot wizardly dispel. Because he has to be in Range of the wizard who cast - not the actual taget.... Fated 11+ is unlikely....
Good catch!

So poor Drain Magic is rather the unwanted step child of the RiP spells...
Totally, its only good versus a level 2 wizard where you have that 18 versus 24" dispel range to work with.

I played a game versus tomb Kings and it was just dispelled at the start of my opponents turn.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#560 Post by Hoeth »

NHB wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:18 pm Reg Sea Guard: Steve from Mountain Miniatures was first "OMG" reading the rule -> that is so great -> auto include. Playing the rule -> not even worth it. (why would you take aways Attacks from your unit?)...

For me the peek-a-bo strategy seems still valid. (SM or WL are hiding behind the 10x2 SG, they get charged and reform to 5x4, Next turn the SM or WL can flank charge.
Would it be also possible to make a charge fail because of naval disciplining out of range?
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#561 Post by Seredain »

TyrrenAzureblade wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:02 pm
Seredain wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:13 pm On page 209 of the rulebook, under "Characters In Combat" it is written that "In combat, a character that has joined a unit... Can only have Impact Hits or Stomp Attacks directed against them if there are fewer than five rank and file models in the unit."

I've then read through the Challenge rules (210-211). There is some introductory text under "Fighting A Challenge" which reads as follows: "Once a challenge has been accepted, the two combatants will direct all of their attacks against one another, in Initiative order. Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models engaged in the same combat cannot direct their attacks against either of the duelling models" (p.211). The thrust of this section by my reading is that the challengers must fight each other and not other models in the same combat, that other models cannot allocate attacks to the challengers, and that the challengers should be moved into base to base contact unless to do so would be impracticable.

In the section on "Challenges & Mounts" (p.211) it is written only that "If either participant in a challenge is mounted, their mount (including the crew of a chariot) must direct its attacks against the other participant."

I do not believe that either of the rules quoted from p.211 provide a deliberate exception to the ruling on p. 209 quoted above. The matter is not touched upon in the recent FAQ.

If my reading is correct, your best defence against behemoth monsters is to field defensive characters in high-static res units, challenge them out, and benefit from the ranks and flags whilst rendering them unable to make stomp attacks against your hero.

What do we think?
Impact Hits and Stomp Attacks are attacks that are attributed to the mount, therefore must be directed to the opposing challenger. I don't believe that's unclear.
Tyrren,

It’s a fair point! I think you’re probably reading it right (and I’ve made my own army build choices on that basis). The trouble is that it’s only clear when read in isolation. As is the other rule.

So you just know that someone, somewhere, will flip to the Characters and Units page and quote that such attacks may not be allocated to the character in the unit (without noted exceptions). In Contract law we would have to determine which clause takes precedence. I think it would help if GW did this for us, to save some heartache.
Hoeth wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:03 pm
NHB wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:18 pm Reg Sea Guard: Steve from Mountain Miniatures was first "OMG" reading the rule -> that is so great -> auto include. Playing the rule -> not even worth it. (why would you take aways Attacks from your unit?)...

For me the peek-a-bo strategy seems still valid. (SM or WL are hiding behind the 10x2 SG, they get charged and reform to 5x4, Next turn the SM or WL can flank charge.
Would it be also possible to make a charge fail because of naval disciplining out of range?
I don’t see why this wouldn’t work. The Redress happens after the declaration but before the charge move.

I’m excited to try some peekaboo shenanigans with Lion Chariots, but being able to stand and shoot at any range is still probably the strongest element of Naval Discipline, especially now that casualties give CR and because Giving Ground and Falling Back provide (theoretically) more opportunities to shoot than before.

Other than the Glorious Peekaboo and increasing distance from flanking enemies, Redress the Ranks will probably only be useful if a) your unit has been sufficiently damaged that it needs to Redress in order to gain maximum rank bonus and the extra rank bonus is higher then the wounds you’re likely to inflict by having extra attacks; or b) you want to reduce your frontage to reduce the number of attacks suffered from a superior enemy unit / combined charge by several units. Maybe we file it under “usually unimportant but occasionally life-saving”?
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#562 Post by Ielthan »

Ielthan wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 3:31 pm
TyrrenAzureblade wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:23 pm
Ielthan wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:36 pm What are people's thoughts on spearmen? I need to test them but they seem decent and cheapish, a fairly reliable unit at taking a charge with spearwall, and as mentioned before courage of aenarion is a possibility. I'm not sure about their formation, is 7x3 worth it over 5x4?
In my earlier builds and first couple of games, I would fill out my core with a 30 model unit of Spearmen, 20 Archers, and Reavers. If forced to pick between Spearmen and Lothern Sea Guard, I'd go for a larger block of Spearmen for the same points. Like with Sea Guard, Martial Prowess and Thrusting Spears getting +1I when charged make for a very prickly unit, and having beefy fighting ranks to the front, flanks, and rear help so I formed them up 6x5 for 13 attacks to the front, and 9-10 attacks from the flanks. Shieldwall didn't come into play in those games, but I always made sure to buy it. They were great for holding and in fact won quite a few combats. In future lists I may go back to Spearmen instead of Phoenix Guard to field a unit of White Lions instead to see how they perform.
Interesting feedback. I think you raise a good point about the depth of the unit making martial prowess more effective.

To be honest one thing I'm a little unsure of, is it seems like it's often better to fall back in good order rather than give ground, because you can then charge in your turn, or just have more options, or be out of combat for a turn losing fewer casualties. Even if you use shieldwall and choose to give ground there's nothing forcing your opponent to follow up, so is it just about the distance you fall back? If you do give ground in your own turn against say a cavalry unit, wouldn't they be better off not following up as they can then charge in their own turn gaining lance bonuses etc.?

The only reason I can see for ever wanting to follow after an opponent gives ground is to prevent them countercharging you, but often if it's a combat you've charged into, they probably don't want that fight anyway, and will be better off just avoiding combat for a turn.

Am I fundamentally misunderstanding this? Finding it a little difficult to get my head around this new system and figuring out the best way to use it.
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Morgen
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#563 Post by Morgen »

So the movement for falling back in good order is effectively fleeing which can cause a lot of trouble. Plus restraining from pursuit or following up is a leadership check so it's not something that one can always do. There's a lot of scenarios where doing one or the other is the better option.

Yes, it is often better to restrain if it's your opponent's turn and then charge on your own turn but if you've got to decide that turn by turn. The initiative bonus for doing so if they give ground is only +2 mind you.

Like a unit of phoenix guard probably would rather just follow up if their opponent gave ground, since they'd get a whole extra rank of halberd attacks. Chariots inversely get fresh impact hits and likely would try to restrain, etc.

Of course following up would prevent charge reactions like stand and shoot or the opponent running away to lure a unit out of position. If they've got short bows or anything else quick to fire, most of our units would probably rather follow up than restrain if they're not heavily armored. White Lions might be safe depending on if it's pistols or short bows.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#564 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

This happened exactly in my game yesterday. My opponent had a unit of Great Weapon Full Plate Chaos Chosen on my left flank, I counter deployed with Phoenix Guard/BSB (Great Weapon, Battle Banner), I redressed them to 10 wide, and moved them up with the intention of receiving the charge. It also served as a screen for my adjacent Swordmasters that were trying to maneuver to flank charge a unit of Chaos Warriors that were charged by my Prince in a Silver Helm unit. Going wide allowed me to generate enough combat resolution to win the combat, they Gave Ground, and I continued to Follow Up with two ranks fighting. I kept winning combats and they kept Giving Ground the entire game. Without the ability to reform to a wider formation, his big hammer was tied up the entire game and getting chipped away. Alternately with my Swordmasters, I kept Testing to Restrain on my opponents turns so my Archmage could keep casting Shield of Saphery and Fury of Khaine on the unit, and so my Swordmasters could charge for the Initiative bonus to keep fighting before his tooled up Gaze of the Gods infused BSB (His characters kept rolling incredibly well with lots of permanent stat improvements).
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#565 Post by Ielthan »

TyrrenAzureblade wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:30 pm This happened exactly in my game yesterday. My opponent had a unit of Great Weapon Full Plate Chaos Chosen on my left flank, I counter deployed with Phoenix Guard/BSB (Great Weapon, Battle Banner), I redressed them to 10 wide, and moved them up with the intention of receiving the charge. It also served as a screen for my adjacent Swordmasters that were trying to maneuver to flank charge a unit of Chaos Warriors that were charged by my Prince in a Silver Helm unit. Going wide allowed me to generate enough combat resolution to win the combat, they Gave Ground, and I continued to Follow Up with two ranks fighting. I kept winning combats and they kept Giving Ground the entire game. Without the ability to reform to a wider formation, his big hammer was tied up the entire game and getting chipped away. Alternately with my Swordmasters, I kept Testing to Restrain on my opponents turns so my Archmage could keep casting Shield of Saphery and Fury of Khaine on the unit, and so my Swordmasters could charge for the Initiative bonus to keep fighting before his tooled up Gaze of the Gods infused BSB (His characters kept rolling incredibly well with lots of permanent stat improvements).
What happened with your phoenix guard I find kind of concerning tbh. Combat now seems incredibly grindy, because of how break tests work it's near impossible to make a decisive blow in 6 turns, unless you can somehow reduce enemy leadership significantly, or maybe just use some deathstar type unit with high unit strength. I've seen so many battle reports where 2 tough units just bump against each other for 4 turns with no conclusion. I'm not sure if this comes from LotR (same designers) where this kind of thing happens a lot, and larger games in particular can become really attritional. One of my favourite parts of playing WFB with high elves was how you could play so carefully until the precise moment you set up the perfect flank and overrun, it felt so rewarding when you pulled it off. I'm not sure in practice how much that will really happen now.

I see now there is more nuance thought to giving ground and falling back in good order. If you pursue when an enemy falls back (not giving ground) do you count as charging? The layout of the rulebook is making it quite difficult to pick up all the details.

Also the linehammer aspect of gaining an advantage by widening the line to take a charge is really counter to real world tactics. Really hope they increase rank bonus to +3 or change who can hit back to base to base. No idea why they changed that rule tbh.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#566 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

Ielthan wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:09 pm What happened with your phoenix guard I find kind of concerning tbh. Combat now seems incredibly grindy, because of how break tests work it's near impossible to make a decisive blow in 6 turns, unless you can somehow reduce enemy leadership significantly, or maybe just use some deathstar type unit with high unit strength. I've seen so many battle reports where 2 tough units just bump against each other for 4 turns with no conclusion. I'm not sure if this comes from LotR (same designers) where this kind of thing happens a lot, and larger games in particular can become really attritional. One of my favourite parts of playing WFB with high elves was how you could play so carefully until the precise moment you set up the perfect flank and overrun, it felt so rewarding when you pulled it off. I'm not sure in practice how much that will really happen now.
I don't know how statistically relevant my example actually is. High Elf wet noodles against Full Plate, Heavy Armor/Shields, Chaos Armor ward saves should favor Chaos Warriors I'd think. I'd say I was rolling better than average most of the game. My opponent kept rolling ~3 on that particular series of Break Tests. But it was my intent to tie up that big scary hammer and keep them from sweeping into my flank, so I was more than pleased with the outcome on that flank. Once you play a handful of games, you'll probably see how well this edition actually plays and the decision making throughout is pretty engaging. Or you may hate it and it's not for you.

For what it's worth, I've won all of my TOW games pretty decisively with High Elves so far. Probably also statistically insignificant at the advent of a new edition, but I'd like to think it's because I'm making decent tactical choices with my troops. It's probably just dice being hot though.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#567 Post by Bolt Thrower »

Ielthan wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:09 pm I see now there is more nuance thought to giving ground and falling back in good order. If you pursue when an enemy falls back (not giving ground) do you count as charging? The layout of the rulebook is making it quite difficult to pick up all the details.
When an enemy falls back in good order and you pursue and run into them you will count as charging during the next turn. Below is pasted from the site tow.whfb.app. It has been a great supplement for me when I am looking for something to reference quickly.

Catching the Curs!

Rulebook, p. 157
Once the unit being pursued has completed its move, the pursuing unit is moved. If the pursuing unit makes contact with the pursued unit, it has caught its enemy and halts:

If the enemy unit is fleeing, it is hacked to pieces and immediately removed from play, exactly as if it had been run down by a charging unit. The pursuing unit may then attempt to reform.

If the enemy unit Fell Back in Good Order, the units become engaged in combat once more, becoming locked in place until the next player's turn when the combat will continue. During the next turn, the pursuing unit counts as having charged.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#568 Post by Ielthan »

TyrrenAzureblade wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:10 pm
Ielthan wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:09 pm What happened with your phoenix guard I find kind of concerning tbh. Combat now seems incredibly grindy, because of how break tests work it's near impossible to make a decisive blow in 6 turns, unless you can somehow reduce enemy leadership significantly, or maybe just use some deathstar type unit with high unit strength. I've seen so many battle reports where 2 tough units just bump against each other for 4 turns with no conclusion. I'm not sure if this comes from LotR (same designers) where this kind of thing happens a lot, and larger games in particular can become really attritional. One of my favourite parts of playing WFB with high elves was how you could play so carefully until the precise moment you set up the perfect flank and overrun, it felt so rewarding when you pulled it off. I'm not sure in practice how much that will really happen now.
I don't know how statistically relevant my example actually is. High Elf wet noodles against Full Plate, Heavy Armor/Shields, Chaos Armor ward saves should favor Chaos Warriors I'd think. I'd say I was rolling better than average most of the game. My opponent kept rolling ~3 on that particular series of Break Tests. But it was my intent to tie up that big scary hammer and keep them from sweeping into my flank, so I was more than pleased with the outcome on that flank. Once you play a handful of games, you'll probably see how well this edition actually plays and the decision making throughout is pretty engaging. Or you may hate it and it's not for you.

For what it's worth, I've won all of my TOW games pretty decisively with High Elves so far. Probably also statistically insignificant at the advent of a new edition, but I'd like to think it's because I'm making decent tactical choices with my troops. It's probably just dice being hot though.
Fair enough, you're right I definitely need to get some games in.
Bolt Thrower wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:26 pm
Ielthan wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:09 pm I see now there is more nuance thought to giving ground and falling back in good order. If you pursue when an enemy falls back (not giving ground) do you count as charging? The layout of the rulebook is making it quite difficult to pick up all the details.
When an enemy falls back in good order and you pursue and run into them you will count as charging during the next turn. Below is pasted from the site tow.whfb.app. It has been a great supplement for me when I am looking for something to reference quickly.

Catching the Curs!

Rulebook, p. 157
Once the unit being pursued has completed its move, the pursuing unit is moved. If the pursuing unit makes contact with the pursued unit, it has caught its enemy and halts:

If the enemy unit is fleeing, it is hacked to pieces and immediately removed from play, exactly as if it had been run down by a charging unit. The pursuing unit may then attempt to reform.

If the enemy unit Fell Back in Good Order, the units become engaged in combat once more, becoming locked in place until the next player's turn when the combat will continue. During the next turn, the pursuing unit counts as having charged.
Thanks! This definitely makes spearmen with shieldwall fantastic for stopping cavalry units.
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#569 Post by Ielthan »

Just noticed that there's nothing in the book saying that great eagles are monstrous cavalry when mounts....so great eagle mounted characters do not count as skirmishers (so no 360 degree los)..surely one for them to errata. That crazy T5 royal pegasus is monstrous cavalry with a chaos lord wannabe on top :(
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Re: A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

#570 Post by Halinn »

Ielthan wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:07 pm Just noticed that there's nothing in the book saying that great eagles are monstrous cavalry when mounts....so great eagle mounted characters do not count as skirmishers (so no 360 degree los)..surely one for them to errata. That crazy T5 royal pegasus is monstrous cavalry with a chaos lord wannabe on top :(
Eagle-mounted characters are indeed mountrous creatures, just like griffon- or phoenix-mounted ones.
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