A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

[Prince of Spires]

The Marching column is vulnerable to Impetuous, regardless of Drilled and if you can use it on the charge or not. BBB mentions that if you're in Marching Column, then you can still declare a charge, you just can't complete it. So if you're Impetuous, and you're in range, then you roll to see if you charge, even if you're in Marching Column. Screening or facing some other direction is the only thing that works. That or sacrifices to the dice gods of course.

[Axiem]

The Marching column is vulnerable to Impetuous, regardless of Drilled and if you can use it on the charge or not. BBB mentions that if you're in Marching Column, then you can still declare a charge, you just can't complete it. So if you're Impetuous, and you're in range, then you roll to see if you charge, even if you're in Marching Column. Screening or facing some other direction is the only thing that works. That or sacrifices to the dice gods of course.

Isn't it better than that?

Drilled is a "may" condition, so if you do fail your impetuous test while in Marching Columns, worst case you can decide I have to charge, but cannot move the charge via Marching Columns. Stand still?

No screener required right?

Kind regards,

Axiem

[Tethlis]

...Does anyone spot any language that stops characters of various troop types from joining other troop types?

For example, I see no prohibition against a chariot character joining cavalry, a monstrous cavalry unit joining infantry, etc.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

The last thing I'll say on the matter as it regards Drilled: Enjoy it while you can, I think there's a FAQ coming 'round the bend that's going to nip that in the bud. I hope not, but I think the RAI for Drilled isn't our interpretation.

[Ielthan]

The last thing I'll say on the matter as it regards Drilled: Enjoy it while you can, I think there's a FAQ coming 'round the bend that's going to nip that in the bud. I hope not, but I think the RAI for Drilled isn't our interpretation.

I agree, noticed Russ Veal (tournament veteran from the old days and familiar to many here) in his video wasn't sure either, but guessed as intended move didn't mean charge as frankly it's just too good. On the other hand I think reavers can march column into quick turn which could be interesting.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

On the other hand I think reavers can march column into quick turn which could be interesting.

Yeah, I think a lot of folks, not particularly here on this forum, are underestimating Reavers this edition. As screeners for Dragon Princes, the ability to take Skirmish and Scouts, the ability to be in either Open Order formation or Skirmish with a reform, they are going to be incredibly versatile. I know Eagles seem to have gotten a nice little glow up, but with a lot of anti-flying magic/items out there, I'm going to start with Reavers.

[Morgen]

There are a number of unit based restrictions out there requiring a character to be your general or a mage or have a specific honour to join certain units. There are rules for characters joining units of chariots. There are rules for where a character joining a unit can go depending on its base size compared to the unit it's joining.

I don't have my book yet but I presume theres other limitations too.

[Râstë]

Cheers fellow donut enthusiasts!

Does several Seeds of Rebirth taken by the same character give a better regen save? Ward Saves states that you use the best if you have several, but there is no such note under Regeneration.

[Giladis]

While I originally planned to play with the Dwarfs this weekend my opponent asked if he could switch from HE to DE because he managed to complete the rebasing and therefore I'll be taking HE to the field.

It will be my opponent's first game of ToW and the first game of any tabletop since winter of 2013 so I thought about picking a list that participates in all segments of the game. I also pondered whether I should include a unit of cavalry to round up the learning experience. Still, I opted against it for thematic reasons and because he will be bringing some Cold One Knights so that should suffice.

Giladis' "Chill List"
High Elf Realms - The Crimson Host of Athel Ballarn- [2000pts]

Characters [793pts]
Prince [246pts]: Full Plate Armour, General, Warden of Saphery, Seed of Rebirth, Dragon Helm, Reaver Bow, Talisman Of Protection

Archmage [270pts]: Pure of Heart, High Magic, Lore Familiar, Ruby Ring of Ruin, The Loremaster's Cloak, Wizard Level 4

Noble [277pts]: Full Plate Armour, Battle Standard Bearer, Pure of Heart, Seed of Rebirth, Opal Amulet, Lance, Griffon, Shield


Core [502pts]
18 Lothern Sea Guard [251pts]: FC, Shields, Veterans
18 Lothern Sea Guard [251pts]: FC, Shields, Veterans


Special [343pts]
20 Swordmasters of Hoeth [343pts]: FC, Lion Standard, Drilled


Rare [362pts]
Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower [80pts]
Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower [80pts]
Great Eagles [60pts]
Great Eagles [60pts]
5 Sisters of Avelorn [82pts]: C


Does this look to you as a good "learning" list?

[Râstë]

I'd change 1 unit of Lothern Sea Guard for a unit of Spearmen backed up by an Archer detachment to get some Regimental/Detachment action going if you want to learn the rules so to speak.

[Tethlis]

Looks good as a list. I'd be loathe to leave home without any cavalry, and I think some Silverhelms with Swiftstride, First Charge, a first-round combat mentality with lances, and a bit of armor could be good from a learning perspective. But I think your unit loadouts and their configurations look good.

Questions I'll certainly have for you after your game:

-How did the missile fire go? How did the Seaguard feel, and what are your impressions of bolt throwers?
-How do Swordmasters hold up in a unit with 3 ranks? I want to use them, but am wary of their fragility, so would love to hear how they do in the line of battle, compared to being a smaller flanking or support detachment of 14.
-Tell us about the Great Eagle, how did redirecting work for you, or did they contribute to actual Combat Resolution in a meaningful way?

Happy hunting!

[NightHawk45]

A rules question: If I have swordmasters 10 wide and one deep and I fight a block of enemy five wide and two deep My entire 10 swordmasters get to hit against the block. however what if a second enemy unit joins the fray? How do I divide my swordmaster attacks between these two units.

Do the swordmasters hit the unit they are touching or can I pit all 10 against one or the other of the blocks. If the former, what do I do with swordmasters that do not touch or corner touch a block can they hit whatever they want?

I don't have the rules book because it's still being shipped to my house via a third party FLGS.

[Clockwork]

A rules question: If I have swordmasters 10 wide and one deep and I fight a block of enemy five wide and two deep My entire 10 swordmasters get to hit against the block. however what if a second enemy unit joins the fray? How do I divide my swordmaster attacks between these two units.

Do the swordmasters hit the unit they are touching or can I pit all 10 against one or the other of the blocks. If the former, what do I do with swordmasters that do not touch or corner touch a block can they hit whatever they want?

I don't have the rules book because it's still being shipped to my house via a third party FLGS.

If you’re in base contact with a unit you have to direct attacks against it, then the closets enemy unit. If the model is exactly in the middle you get to pick.

[Morgen]

I believe the intention of the supporting attacks Nighthawk is the models in the fighting rank outside of those in base contact push forward to surround the enemy. A kind of pseudo wrap around if you will, without all the mess of physically moving your models.

[Giladis]

Looks good as a list. I'd be loathe to leave home without any cavalry, and I think some Silverhelms with Swiftstride, First Charge, a first-round combat mentality with lances, and a bit of armor could be good from a learning perspective. But I think your unit loadouts and their configurations look good.

Questions I'll certainly have for you after your game:

-How did the missile fire go? How did the Seaguard feel, and what are your impressions of bolt throwers?
-How do Swordmasters hold up in a unit with 3 ranks? I want to use them, but am wary of their fragility, so would love to hear how they do in the line of battle, compared to being a smaller flanking or support detachment of 14.
-Tell us about the Great Eagle, how did redirecting work for you, or did they contribute to actual Combat Resolution in a meaningful way?

Happy hunting!

My opponent's rough list:

Beastmaster on a Manticore with the Toughness-reducing weapon
L2 Sorceress with an additional spell
Assassin
18 Corsairs with AHW
18 Corsairs with Pistols
18 Witch Elves
18 Executioners
5 Shades
5 Knights
Charybdis

+510 for me after full 6 turns, he had Manticore and 4 Shades, I had Prince, Swordmasters, 3/4 of one LSG and an Eagle on 1 wound


From a purely game efficiency point of view going all Silver Helm core I believe is the superior choice. Sea Guard was decent, they shot a little and fought a little. Overall a very neutral experience. At the same time, I can definitely see Silver Helms being just plain better in almost all situations. I might not have taken off a few wounds with shooting but I am confident that would have been compensated in combat.

Shooting in general was I guess OK but the damage was carried by the Prince with a 4-shot Reaver Bow. Bolt Throwers were underwhelming for anyone with previous WH experience. Between the two of them, they killed 5 Corsairs, and took two wounds of the Charybdis before getting run down by the same Charybdis. Multiple Shot penalty and the random number of shots are quite punishing to the overall experience with them. I would gladly play 20 points more if it meant a fixed number of shots and no multiple shot penalty. The Sisters were also underwhelming, but then again their purpose was to be an ItP mobile bunker for the Archmage.

Swordmasters performed splendidly but they had Fury of Khaine in all the rounds of combat they participated in - twice against Executioners and once against Corsairs.

Eagles didn't redirect anything in the match. One died to Shades' shooting after being left stranded due to Counter Charge* and the other moved to block the Corsairs and bait Witch Elves. Witch Elves opted to charge a more distant target hoping to fail with a low roll which they did while the Corsairs and the Eagle kept fighting for 3 rounds with the Eagle being pushed 2" back every round. It finally broke but fled behind the Swordmasters to survive the game. I honestly do not recall the Eagle ever surviving 3 rounds of combat against anything other than a war machine ever.

*I couldn't find it in the rulebook but a situation happened where my BSB charged the front of the Cold One Knights and the Eagle went for the flank. The Knights countercharged and moved out of Eagle's arc of sight. I just couldn't find what happens then since it isn't covered in either "Failed Charge" or "Unusual Circumstances".


One final note for everyone. I am sure most have already noticed that but it doesn't hurt to remind people that Assailments can be cast in the opponent's turn as well.

This makes me want to reevaluate the usefulness of a Prince Loremaster with Hammerhand and greatly increases the danger potential of the big orc wizard on a Wyvern.


edit: I used Drain Magic, Fury of Khaine, Shield of Saphery, Fiery Convocation and Fireball (BS) - I don't think I will be picking Fiery Convocation again. Drain Magic was great, Fury of Khain was overwhelming and Shield of Saphery was useful. My Level 4 completely dominated his L2.

[Csjarrat]

You can cast assailments in the opponents turn? Really?
That's awesome. Got a reference for that in case I get push-back?

[Giladis]

Page 108. Casting Spells, 4th point

Enchantment, Hex, Conveyance, Magic Missile and Vortex spells specify you can cast them in YOUR [inster] phase. Assailment specifies ANY Combat phase.

[Ielthan]

Thanks for the great report, very interesting feedback. I somewhat agree regarding silverhelms, this edition has a lot of similarities with 6th, where cavalry and static combat res were king.

[Lion-of-Chrace]

Regarding the charging eagle out of LOS after countercharge:
I would say, you complete the charge in the flank with the eagle, turning as appropriate.
Charge requirement (los and side of contact) are checked at the charge declaration phase...
Countercharge state that, receiving multiple charge, you countercharge one and automatically hold versus the other, so the intention of the rule is clear, in my opinion, not to allow manovering to avoid charge... (RAI)...
The only circumstances I see for a failed charge, is new interposing terrain that may render a contact impossible at all, regardless of the dice rolled...
My 2 cents anyway...

[Morgen]

I believe with the current mindset you're fine, all the targetting is already done and everything is thematically all going at the same time. I don't have the rulebook yet but I'm assuming none of the move charging models rules say anythimg aboutstill having to see the unit to wheel and charge. A counter-charge might take them out of range of your eagle's charge movement but at the moving charging models everything should already be locked on and moving in the correct direction on an open field.

Logical conclusions do seem to be what we're doing now for odd situations now.

[Csjarrat]

Page 108. Casting Spells, 4th point

Enchantment, Hex, Conveyance, Magic Missile and Vortex spells specify you can cast them in YOUR [inster] phase. Assailment specifies ANY Combat phase.

Legend, cheers

[Tethlis]

Thanks Giladis. Congratulations, and the write up is appreciated!

-Reaver Bow: Worth it? I'm thinking of putting in on a BSB, worth taking over a BSB on a monstrous mount? I can see the output of the bow being helpful. Did you have difficult staying in range of the units who needed the reroll? I like that Sisters can hide among our battle line and shoot accurately because they ignore Cover, so I'm thinking of a BSB Reaver Bow and Sisters in that role. How did your Noble perform?

-How did it feel, taking in enemy monsters? Did you find yourself wanting a dedicated monster unit with D3 Wound ability?

-Thanks for the Silver Helms confirmation. My meta pulls no punches so having a solid Core like Silver Helms makes sense.

-I know your eagles didn't get much redirect opportunity, but do how do you sense redirecting has changed compared to previous editions?

-I like the look of High Magic, I think it's the stand out for us in a Level 3 since I don't trust the illusion hijinx that are being proposed with doppelganger. Thanks for the context and info.

[Giladis]

-Reaver Bow: Worth it? I'm thinking of putting in on a BSB, worth taking over a BSB on a monstrous mount? I can see the output of the bow being helpful. Did you have difficult staying in range of the units who needed the reroll? I like that Sisters can hide among our battle line and shoot accurately because they ignore Cover, so I'm thinking of a BSB Reaver Bow and Sisters in that role. How did your Noble perform?

I would say that the 4th shot provided by the Prince's profile was very important in ensuring Reaver Bow's investment was worth it. As for the BSB, it was dead by the opponent's turn 2. My 2nd turn he charged the COKs, killed a champion with 1 wound on overkill, COKs were pushed back 2". On the opponent's turn did no damaged, took one wound, rolled a double 11 and got run down.

-How did it feel, taking in enemy monsters? Did you find yourself wanting a dedicated monster unit with D3 Wound ability?

I didn't feel it was necessary. Tools at my disposal were enough to take off wounds over the course of the game. Maybe if they were better armoured with better toughness I might have felt the need.

-I know your eagles didn't get much redirect opportunity, but do how do you sense redirecting has changed compared to previous editions?

With the manoeuvrability of the charging unit going back to pre-8th situation, I have a feeling it will be comparable to it. Also until rules for charging skirmishers are cleared up I would say skirmishers have a far higher redirecting potential than Eagles or ranked Reavers.

[anorexia]

Guys,
Played a battle this weekend. 1500pts
Had so much fun. Game is just awesome. Magic is strong but not op, shooting is ok, but i played with sisters so maybe thats why.
Combat is just great with the new break system. Cavalry is the best option, but infrantry is still viable. I really think MSU will have a rebirth. There was a moment where he was in range with 4 coldone knights vs my 10 swordmasters. I just did 10x1 reform, and won that fight.

Next week i play with my VC. Cant w8. Plan to do zombie spam.

[Ielthan]

Guys,
Played a battle this weekend. 1500pts
Had so much fun. Game is just awesome. Magic is strong but not op, shooting is ok, but i played with sisters so maybe thats why.
Combat is just great with the new break system. Cavalry is the best option, but infrantry is still viable. I really think MSU will have a rebirth. There was a moment where he was in range with 4 coldone knights vs my 10 swordmasters. I just did 10x1 reform, and won that fight.

Next week i play with my VC. Cant w8. Plan to do zombie spam.

Awesome! I totally agree there's a lot in the rules that rewards MSU and cavalry, very reminiscent of 7th edition. That move with the swordmasters is a good indication, any elite combat unit with drilled is just so dangerous.

[anorexia]

He was fully aware of the support attack rule. When i did it, he just paused for a moment. Commented about the rule and we agreed that its awesome. He knew he will lose that combat. But it was a friendly game so he charged regardless.

[Voi_D_ragon]

With the manoeuvrability of the charging unit going back to pre-8th situation, I have a feeling it will be comparable to it. Also until rules for charging skirmishers are cleared up I would say skirmishers have a far higher redirecting potential than Eagles or ranked Reavers.

How so? From what I understand as soon as you make contact with a skirmishing unit you stop and they all rank up to the current facing of the charging unit, so you can't really force a unit to wheel so it's flank is exposed. Am I missing something?

Also if killing a unit in the first round of combat you don't necessarily just overrun, you get a reform both if you move and if you don't move, which makes sacrificial misdirectors less useful, right?

Void

[Voi_D_ragon]

He was fully aware of the support attack rule. When i did it, he just paused for a moment. Commented about the rule and we agreed that its awesome. He knew he will lose that combat. But it was a friendly game so he charged regardless.

Wait, so you reformed on his charge?

Or did you absorb it for the first turn and then reform to kill him?

Void

[Minion X]

...Does anyone spot any language that stops characters of various troop types from joining other troop types?

For example, I see no prohibition against a chariot character joining cavalry, a monstrous cavalry unit joining infantry, etc.

Except for monsters and heavy chariots with the Lumbering special rule, and units/characters with the Fly special rule, any character appears to be able to join any unit, even characters in light chariots.

[anorexia]

He was fully aware of the support attack rule. When i did it, he just paused for a moment. Commented about the rule and we agreed that its awesome. He knew he will lose that combat. But it was a friendly game so he charged regardless.

Wait, so you reformed on his charge?

Or did you absorb it for the first turn and then reform to kill him?

Void

i reformed redressed to 10x1 and shortened the distance between us. He charged me. He killed 3 SM(with hatred), my 7 killed 3 also. And 1 cold one did nothing (5 ini when charging vs my 7). He was left with a champion cause we did a challenge and he won that.. Dunno if champion can be last man standing in a unit or it must be a SB. We did not check that. It was his 6th turn. In my 6th, SM killed the last guy.

Edit, Its called redress the ranks. It cost half of your movement.