Split Profiles and Always Strikes First

[TyrrenAzureblade]

I have a rules question regarding ASF. Say you have a BSB in a unit of Spearmen, and the BSB is equipped with the Sword of Might. The Spearmen have I5, and the BSB has I7. Does the BSB need to attack first, or can I have the Spearmen attack first because they both have ASF?

[SpellArcher]

My reading from pg 66 is that all ASF attacks are made simultaneously and that is the way I've always seen it played. For convenience we might roll some dice before others but it's assumed for example that enemy killed by the first batch of dice are still there when the next batch is rolled.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Well, for another example: You have a Star Lance High Elf prince in a unit of Dragon Princes with the Banner of Eternal Flame. They charge something with Regeneration. Can I use my Dragon Princes first to hopefully remove Regeneration so that my Prince can then attack without having to worry about Regeneration?

[SpellArcher]

The Regeneration wording on pg 74 is for the remainder of the phase. To me this implies after the Flaming Attacks have struck. As all ASF attacks are simultaneous it would not help the other unit. Again, that's the only way I've seen it played.

It can be useful to consider 'steps'. So ASF attacks all happen together at the same 'step', then all Initiative 10 attacks etc. etc..

In the High Elf army I guess an ASF model inflicting a Flaming wound would help accompanying Swordmasters or White Lions. Or Dragons/Phoenixes attacking the same foe as with Caradryan and Ashtari.

[Prince of Spires]

double answer: ASF is like an extra Initiative step above I10. You go before everyone who goes in initiative order, and you go simultaneously with every other model with ASF. And going simultaneously means that the attacks of one model have no effect on the attacks of another model. You could wipe out a whole enemy unit with your ASF attacks, but those dead models still get to strike back if they also have ASF. So DP's with banner of eternal flame attacking a unit with regeneration don't remove regen for other models in other units attacking with ASF.

There is one "but" in there. If the prince is in the DP unit wielding the banner, then his attacks are just as flaming as those of the DP's. The banner gives flaming attacks to the unit. As long as the prince is part of the unit then he benefits from the banner just like all other models in that unit.

BRB pages to reference: 100 for special rules of characters in units, 66 for ASF, and 50 for striking order and going at the same time.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Excellent, thanks guys. Although to correct something you said Prince of Spires, the prince in this example would not get flaming attacks as he's equipped with the Star Lance. If it were a mundane lance, then yeah, but as I understand it, flaming/poisoned attacks are not conferred to magical weapons.

[Prince of Spires]

You're correct. I had it in the back of my mind that this was the case, but I couldn't find the reference, which is why I didn't mention it. But it's in fact the last item under "flaming attacks": though spells cast by the model are unaffected, as are any attacks made with magic weapons they might be wielding.

The same indeed also goes for poisoned attacks.

[Minion X]

Well, for another example: You have a Star Lance High Elf prince in a unit of Dragon Princes with the Banner of Eternal Flame. They charge something with Regeneration. Can I use my Dragon Princes first to hopefully remove Regeneration so that my Prince can then attack without having to worry about Regeneration?

Prince of Spires has a great breakdown in post 8 of this thread of exactly how simultaneous attacks work according to the rules, which is different from how we choose to roll the dice for convenience, and how this interacts with Flaming Attacks and Regeneration saves: https://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=714667

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Well, for another example: You have a Star Lance High Elf prince in a unit of Dragon Princes with the Banner of Eternal Flame. They charge something with Regeneration. Can I use my Dragon Princes first to hopefully remove Regeneration so that my Prince can then attack without having to worry about Regeneration?

Prince of Spires has a great breakdown in post 8 of this thread of exactly how simultaneous attacks work according to the rules, which is different from how we choose to roll the dice for convenience, and how this interacts with Flaming Attacks and Regeneration saves: https://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=714667

I mean, the man himself responded above, so I'm going to go by his most recent understanding of the rules. It also doesn't seem like there was really a final consensus in that thread, so I'm going to stick to what he said above.

[Minion X]

I read the rulebook with fresh eyes after coming across his original claim and it is correct. All attacks at any given Initiative do go through all the individual steps of hitting, wounding and saving simultaneously, which means:

1. To Hit
2. To Wound
3. Armour saves
4. Ward saves and Regeneration saves

So if a model/unit with the Regeneration special rule fails its armour save against an attack with the Flaming Attacks special rule, it cannot proceed to take any Regeneration saves against any attacks, since it has already been wounded in the previous step and has now lost its Regeneration save for the remainder of the phase. The sole caveat might be if the unit in question also has a ward save which is worse than its Regeneration save, in which case you might argue that it should be allowed the ward save against the attacks with Flaming Attacks and the Regeneration save against any non-Flaming Attacks, since it takes place in the same step, but that seems a bit shaky.

The issue is that we become too used to rolling for all the different steps separately for each unit out of convenience. I suggest you too take a good look at the basic rules of combat and wounding in the Shooting and Close Combat chapters.

[SpellArcher]

I suggest you too take a good look at the basic rules of combat and wounding in the Shooting and Close Combat chapters.

I did Minion X and i now tend to agree with you! My read suggests that a model (and hence the unit for Regen purposes) is 'wounded' once the roll gets past toughness. Thus Regen is lost before saves of any kind are taken. The rulebook likes the phrase 'unsaved wounds' for example when considering the Multiple Wounds special rule (pg 73), which clearly contrasts with just 'wounds'. The rulebook FAQ says nothing either way.

The sole caveat might be if the unit in question also has a ward save which is worse than its Regeneration save, in which case you might argue that it should be allowed the ward save against the attacks with Flaming Attacks and the Regeneration save against any non-Flaming Attacks, since it takes place in the same step, but that seems a bit shaky.

Say a regenerating unit takes one wound from a Flaming source and one from a non-flaming. It then armour saves the Flaming wound but not the non-flaming one. I now feel it then can't Regenerate the non-flaming wound as per above.

I mean, the man himself responded above, so I'm going to go by his most recent understanding of the rules. It also doesn't seem like there was really a final consensus in that thread, so I'm going to stick to what he said above.

Whilst I now agree overall with Minion X here Tyrren I've played hundreds of tournament games where I'm sure these kind of subtle points have not been played strictly accurately or indeed where we've never quite worked out whether they have or not! The most important thing seems to me that the two players (or gaming group) are on the same page with one interpretation or the other.

[Minion X]

Say a regenerating unit takes one wound from a Flaming source and one from a non-flaming. It then armour saves the Flaming wound but not the non-flaming one. I now feel it then can't Regenerate the non-flaming wound as per above.

As long as it saves any wounds caused by attacks with the Flaming Attacks special rule, it can still take its Regeneration save against any other wounds that it fails its armour save against. This is similar to interpreting spells being "cast successfully" as only rolling equal to or higher than their casting value, regardless of whether they are dispelled or not. No action or effect is successful until it has been resolved in its entirety, including any saves our counters, or else the game quickly breaks down.

[SpellArcher]

This is similar to interpreting spells being "cast successfully" as only rolling equal to or higher than their casting value, regardless of whether they are dispelled or not. No action or effect is successful until it has been resolved in its entirety, including any saves our counters, or else the game quickly breaks down.

I'm not instantly sure this applies to the situation under discussion Minion X but let's take it as read for immediate purposes.

As long as it saves any wounds caused by attacks with the Flaming Attacks special rule

First question, does 'it' here refer to the unit or the model?

it can still take its Regeneration save against any other wounds that it fails its armour save against.

So your position is that Regen would be negated by Flaming attacks after any relevant armour saves are failed? If the defending model has both a Ward and a Regen save, would that model be able to take it's Ward save and if that is passed, preserve the unit's Regen?

[Minion X]

First question, does 'it' here refer to the unit or the model?

"It" refers to the target, regardless of whether it's a single model or a unit.

So your position is that Regen would be negated by Flaming attacks after any relevant armour saves are failed? If the defending model has both a Ward and a Regen save, would that model be able to take it's Ward save and if that is passed, preserve the unit's Regen?

That is the one point where the rules are a bit unclear since the wording of the Regeneration special rule states that the save is lost for the remainder of the phase, and since all attacks are meant to be resolved simultaneously, having a ward save creates a kind of limbo where you are technically supposed to resolve both the hits from the attacks with the Flaming Attacks special rule and the attacks without said rule at the same time, meaning that the unit has not decisively lost its Regeneration save at the point where you are supposed to roll for ward saves and Regeneration saves. The natural solution is to roll the ward saves for any attacks with Flaming Attacks first and see if you use the Regeneration save for any other attacks in order to simulate if the super-mundane protection afforded to the hero, creature or unit saves it from the flames and allows it to swiftly heal from any wounds.

PS: While writing this, I remembered the rule of sequencing on page 10 of the rulebook, which seems to make it clear that in the aforementioned scenario, the player whose turn it is may choose in which order to resolve the ward saves and Regeneration saves. Since it is obviously a rare occurence for a target to have both a ward save and a superior Regeneration save, and suffer wounds from both Flaming Attacks and non-flaming attackings on the same initiative, and fail its armour save against both types of attacks, I think it is a fair solution. The only ones who could pull off something like that on a regular basis would be High Elves and Empire, I think.

[SpellArcher]

Since it is obviously a rare occurence for a target to have both a ward save and a superior Regeneration save, and suffer wounds from both Flaming Attacks and non-flaming attackings on the same initiative

Interestingly, it's highly relevant to my games! I'm playing Daemons,a very powerful and hence popular army. Almost every player's list features Beasts of Nurgle (because they're so good) which have a 5+ Ward and 4+ Regen. A lot of players also field Plaguebearers with the same saves. I use both. My regular opponent fields elves (again very powerful and popular), almost the whole army has ASF and hence strikes at the same time.

That is the one point where the rules are a bit unclear since the wording of the Regeneration special rule states that the save is lost for the remainder of the phase, and since all attacks are meant to be resolved simultaneously, having a ward save creates a kind of limbo where you are technically supposed to resolve both the hits from the attacks with the Flaming Attacks special rule and the attacks without said rule at the same time, meaning that the unit has not decisively lost its Regeneration save at the point where you are supposed to roll for ward saves and Regeneration saves

Let's take this to a logical extreme (which I feel is a good way to stess-test rules interpretations). A two-strong unit consists of Model A (only save is a Ward) and Model B (only save is Regen). A Flaming attack comes in at Initiative 4 and wounds Model A whilst a non-Flaming one comes in simultaneously and wounds Model B. My initial thought was that Model B could take it's save even if Model A fails it's Ward due to the identical timing. However...

While writing this, I remembered the rule of sequencing on page 10 of the rulebook, which seems to make it clear that in the aforementioned scenario, the player whose turn it is may choose in which order to resolve the ward saves and Regeneration saves.

I agree, whether or not that Initiative 4 Regen save can be taken seems to depend on whose turn it is.

[Minion X]

I haven't had the opportunity to play against Nurgle daemons since the only daemon army at my local club is strictly Tzeentch, but I can see that it would be a common issue with them.

In your example, however, the Regeneration save of Model B is not affected by any attacks directed against Model A, since they are separate models with separate special rules. The same would apply if Model A was a character and Models B were a unit that Model A had joined.

[SpellArcher]

strictly Tzeentch

Interesting. Horrors-only is probably the strongest way to go with Core, even just adding a couple of Heralds on Metal yields an excellent magic phase. Flamers can be very useful shooters, especially against elves. The issue is lack of combat punch. The Lord of Change can help with this (I field one) but needs to be used carefully.

In your example, however, the Regeneration save of Model B is not affected by any attacks directed against Model A, since they are separate models with separate special rules. The same would apply if Model A was a character and Models B were a unit that Model A had joined.

Pg 74 reads, "if a unit is wounded by a Flaming attack it loses the Regeneration rule for the remainder of the phase". Say the wound is on a non-Regenerating character who has previously joined a Regenerating unit. That character becomes as much a part of the new combined unit as any of the other models. As written, it seems to me that a wound on any one model causes the combined unit to lose Regeneration, the rule does not specify that the wounded model has to have the Regeneration special rule.

Now it could well be that the intent of the rule writer was different. On the other hand is it terribly logical that a unit of 18 Trolls say, all instantly lose Regeneration if a single wound is suffered? It could be argued that the flames quickly spread. Maybe they could quickly spread from a non-Regenerating model too though?

[Minion X]

As per the paragraph SPECIAL RULES on page 100 of the Warhammer rulebook, even if a character and a unit he has joined both have a special rule, and even if they have received the special rule from the same source, this is considered two separate instances of the same rule and specifically negating the rule for either of the two does not negate it for both. It follows the same logic as characters being targeted separately in close combat, and how excess wounds from the character do not carry over to the unit and vice versa. The same would obviously apply if a character is mounted on a mount with a separate profile and both have the Regeneration rule, and only one of them suffers a wound from an attack with the Flaming Attacks special rule.

[SpellArcher]

As per the paragraph SPECIAL RULES on page 100 of the Warhammer rulebook, even if a character and a unit he has joined both have a special rule, and even if they have received the special rule from the same source, this is considered two separate instances of the same rule and specifically negating the rule for either of the two does not negate it for both.

I'd argue that whether the character has Regen or not isn't relevant here. The key section of the Regeneration rule refers only to the unit as a whole, which as a Combined Unit, includes the character.

It follows the same logic as characters being targeted separately in close combat, and how excess wounds from the character do not carry over to the unit and vice versa.

So assuming this logic transfers directly, if a Regenerating unit had been joined by a non-Regenerating character and also a Regenerating character, a Flaming wound on either would not negate Regen for the rest of the unit? I respect the viewpoint, it's internally consistent, I just happen to disagree with it. Comparing logical treatment across different parts of the rulebook is interesting but I feel it's trumped by rules as directly written. I also feel that this section from pg 99 "If the character is slain, any excess wounds do not carry over onto the rest of the unit but are simply lost." which I think is the useful one to consider is not directly comparable to how Regeneration is negated.

I
The same would obviously apply if a character is mounted on a mount with a separate profile and both have the Regeneration rule, and only one of them suffers a wound from an attack with the Flaming Attacks special rule.

I agree this is an identical case to if a Regenerating Infantry character joined a Regenerating Infantry unit say. Again though, Monster and rider constitute a Combined Unit and I hold that whichever one Regenerates is not relevant to whether this unit as a whole loses Regeneration if either part suffers a Flaming wound.

I've a question. If a Regenerating character joins a Regenerating unit and then the character suffers a Flaming wound, which models lose Regeneration by your reading Minion X?

[Minion X]

I've a question. If a Regenerating character joins a Regenerating unit and then the character suffers a Flaming wound, which models lose Regeneration by your reading Minion X?

Only the character loses his Regeneration save since he is a separate profile with his own special rules and his own set of wounds that is targeted and resolved separately from the unit he has joined.

To futher highligh how the character and unit are separate entities in these circumstances, under your interpretation, in case a character is part of a unit where both have the Regeneration special rule and the unit is wounded by an attack with the Flaming Attack special rule, causing both the unit and the character to lose their Regeneration saves for the remained of the phase, and the unit is subsequently wiped out in the same close combat phase, the character would suddenly regain his Regeneration save as per the following entry in the rulebook FAQ:

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any characters remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been removed, any remaining characters will count as a new unit. Note that this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units within 6” (including the newly formed unit of character(s)) as the unit has been destroyed.

The above example also applies if the character has a mount with a separate profile.

PS: Also consider the following scenario, if a character with the Regeneration special rule is part of a unit that does not have the Regeneration special rule and the unit is wounded by an attack with the Flaming Attacks special rule, under your interpretation the character would lose the Regeneration special rule despite not having been wounded by the attack in question.

[SpellArcher]

To futher highligh how the character and unit are separate entities in these circumstances, under your interpretation, in case a character is part of a unit where both have the Regeneration special rule and the unit is wounded by an attack with the Flaming Attack special rule, causing both the unit and the character to lose their Regeneration saves for the remained of the phase, and the unit is subsequently wiped out in the same close combat phase, the character would suddenly regain his Regeneration save as per the following entry in the rulebook FAQ:

Good point.

Also consider the following scenario, if a character with the Regeneration special rule is part of a unit that does not have the Regeneration special rule and the unit is wounded by an attack with the Flaming Attacks special rule, under your interpretation the character would lose the Regeneration special rule despite not having been wounded by the attack in question.

He would.

Only the character loses his Regeneration save since he is a separate profile with his own special rules and his own set of wounds that is targeted and resolved separately from the unit he has joined.

The key issue for me is the pg 74 wording, "if a unit is wounded by a Flaming Attack it loses the Regeneration rule". Is this simply a case of poor wording? These examples we're going through suggest that a character who's joined a unit is not himself 'a unit'.

[Minion X]

The key issue for me is the pg 74 wording, "if a unit is wounded by a Flaming Attack it loses the Regeneration rule". Is this simply a case of poor wording? These examples we're going through suggest that a character who's joined a unit is not himself 'a unit'.

I think it works fine as is because the separation of character and unit in terms of being attacked and wounded in close combat has always been firmly established. Using the word "unit" in the last paragraph instead of "model" as in the preceding paragraphs does help emphasize that if a unit suffers a single wound with the Flaming Attacks special rule, then all models that make up the unit lose their Regeneration save, and not just the one Troll that technically suffered the flaming wound or wounds. If it had said model, you might end up with the following scenario: A unit of Trolls is attacked by a unit of dwarfs led by a hero with a runic weapon that confers Flaming Attacks, the hero goes first and kills one of the Trolls, followed by the unit of dwarfs who cause two wounds on the Trolls, whereupon the player controlling the Trolls claims that they are allowed to take their Regeneration saves since the model that suffered the wounds with Flaming Attacks has been slain already, and none of the surviving Trolls have therefore suffered any flaming wounds.
This is in line with the rules clarifying that units essentially have a wound pool, with the exception of attacks that cause multiple wounds.

[Prince of Spires]

I agree with SA's interpretation here. The rules for flaming say that upon taking a wound, the unit loses regen. It doesn't specify that the wound needs to be dealt to a part of the unit that has regen. Combined units are still units, and though they don't share (most) special rules, that doesn't matter to the wording of regen.

Now, is it likely that the creators of the rules didn't consider this eventuality? I very much expect that's the case.

[Minion X]

I'll reiterate that the SPECIAL RULES paragraph on page 100 of the rulebook already creates a clear distinction between the special rules of a character and those of a unit he joins. The Regeneration of the character only applies to the character, while the Regeneration of the unit only applies to the unit. Here is a link to the paragraph in question on the very handy Rules Index Project for ease of reference: https://8th.whfb.app/characters/special ... characters

PS: Note the wording of rules like Magic Resistance or Stubborn that specifically state that both the character and the unit are affected (except that a unit made up of models with innate Magic Resistance doesn't grant the ward save bonus to a character joining it, though I can't recall if there are any units with the Magic Resistance special rule).