The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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SpellArcher
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1741 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:36 pm I don’t think the big bus works for me as a solution.
It's really not your thing, is it?
Seredain wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:36 pm Do you have an example Empire list in mind?
Perhaps not exactly as I'd have done it but I found one on this thread by Curu Olannon: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=64932&start=30

Total Roster Cost: 2399
Arch Lector (1#, 189 pts) – General
Great Weapon Heavy Armour Obsidian Lodestone, Crown of Command,
Wizard Lord (1#, 215 pts) – Lore of Light
Level 4 sceptre of Stability

Battle Wizard (1#, 90 pts) – Lore of Light
Dispel Scroll, 25 pts
Battle Wizard (1#, 65 pts) – Lore of Light
Captain of the Empire (1#, 108 pts)
Battle Standard Bearer Full Plate Armour Shield Battle Standard Bearer
Standard of Discipline,
Captain of the Empire (2#, 143 pts)
Full Plate Armour Shield Imperial Pegasus, Sword of Striking, Dragonhelm, Luckstone,
Master Engineer (1#, 65 pts)

39 Halberdiers, 270 Full command
19 [Det] Halberdiers, 114 pts
19 [Det] Halberdiers, 114 pts
10 Archers, 70 pts
5 [Det] Archers, 35 pts

Demigryph Knights (3#, 174 pts)
Demigryph Knights (4#, 257 pts)
Musicant standard Gleaming Pennant, 5 pts

1 Great Cannon, 120 pts
Helblaster Volley Gun, 120 pts
Steam Tank, 250 pts
Seredain wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:36 pm Empire Light gun lines… don’t worry me so much. It’s easy to target the demigryphs early and the halberd block (in my experience) usually sits back making target priority much easier than when a whole armoured division is bearing down on you. The archers are excellent against halberdiers and really earn their salt. I do like having the extra mage in this context, though. Book of Hoeth + Scroll, lots of magic missiles with Hand of Glory, plus the 4 RBTs, is a lot of pew pew for infantry empire to handle, even with the steam tanks.
I'm not suggesting this build is especially good vs your list but it seems the main alternative to full metal jacket, as it were. I understand Empire less well than some other armies but this list seems unusual in omitting the War Altar, hence no double Banishment. It's still a respectable magic phase though with the powerful Magic Missiles, the Channels and the Prayers. Just not sure it's enough to win at range, even with the cannon targeting the RBT. I'm guessing the Helblaster is there to inhibit a direct attack. It's an all-comers list of course, I wonder which enemies are prompting the specific choices here.

Can you detail your current list Mr S?
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Prince of Spires
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1742 Post by Prince of Spires »

Let us know if you ever do get that Chaos Dwarves battle played :)

As for Ogre's; they're an army I would love to love. They have some lovely models and characterful choices. They're also reasonably easy to get an army ready to fight since you have a low model count. But their choices are just a bit too limited. As you said, they're either overpowered or not worth taking. Which is a shame.

Then again, I don't have time or funds for another warhammer army, so that might also be a good thing ;)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1743 Post by Seredain »

Hi chaps,

Sorry I'm late. We had a second baby and then the world went away. Plus the now-two year old has been keeping us thin and tired by giving us a new virus every couple of weeks since September last year!

I owed you a conclusion to the tournament recorded in the last page. Unfortunately the last game only got to Turn 2. It was on the top table against the eventual tournament winner, and it was a serious cagey affair. A daemon prince, juggernaut bus, chimeras and a cloud of chariots. To complicate matters, there were two random giants in the middle of the table. We got to randomnly roll to determine where the giants went. I got control, and used them as big hitty eagles to give cover for a defensive posture. My dragon and left-hand phoenix postured around his right flank waiting for an opening. I was afraid the chariot cloud would come rolling in, but my opponent respected my shooting and monsters and stayed back - the chariots covering each other to prevent an exploitative charge by my monsters breaking past line of sight. Stalemate. Considering the number of chariots and my superior ranged power, I was happy with this.

To break the deadlock my opponent attacked in the centre. Having eaten the giants T1, the juggernaut bus, daemon prince and Tzeentch ward save BSB attacked in the centre. There were deployed my phoenix guard (warded up) and the column of silver helms with BSB. The latter were covered by a unit of reavers blocking the BSB. Instead of receiving the charge with them, I chose at the last second to flee. He’d need a 10 to get into my helms anyway… but he got the 10. A pointless risk. I was furious with myself. The BSB then got lucky and broke my helms in one round and then ran them down. This was a bad start. The daemon prince then broke and killed the frost heart phoenix in one round, also running it down and reaching safety off the board. Uhoh!

The main juggernaut charge hit the phoenix guard, bounced, and broke. I couldn’t run them down but had free rein now to push up with the guard with impunity. When the daemon prince came back on, I’d Unfroze and/or bolted him.

Unfortunately, the game ended! We’d spent so much time learning the rules for the roving giants, and messing about with them, that we ran out of time super early with me having very little on the board. What could have been! But my opponent, apart from being a gentleman, had played well with zero mistakes and fully deserved his win.

We then found out that the giants counted as points for whoever killed them. Ugh.

Third place. Not too shabby.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1744 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:25 pm Let us know if you ever do get that Chaos Dwarves battle played :)

As for Ogre's; they're an army I would love to love. They have some lovely models and characterful choices. They're also reasonably easy to get an army ready to fight since you have a low model count. But their choices are just a bit too limited. As you said, they're either overpowered or not worth taking. Which is a shame.

Then again, I don't have time or funds for another warhammer army, so that might also be a good thing ;)
I've got some chaos dwarfs buried in a box in an old schoolmate's attic somewhere. Deffo gonna dig them out for the New Times!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1745 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:11 pm
Seredain wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:36 pm I don’t think the big bus works for me as a solution.
It's really not your thing, is it?
Seredain wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:36 pm Do you have an example Empire list in mind?
Perhaps not exactly as I'd have done it but I found one on this thread by Curu Olannon: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=64932&start=30

Total Roster Cost: 2399
Arch Lector (1#, 189 pts) – General
Great Weapon Heavy Armour Obsidian Lodestone, Crown of Command,
Wizard Lord (1#, 215 pts) – Lore of Light
Level 4 sceptre of Stability

Battle Wizard (1#, 90 pts) – Lore of Light
Dispel Scroll, 25 pts
Battle Wizard (1#, 65 pts) – Lore of Light
Captain of the Empire (1#, 108 pts)
Battle Standard Bearer Full Plate Armour Shield Battle Standard Bearer
Standard of Discipline,
Captain of the Empire (2#, 143 pts)
Full Plate Armour Shield Imperial Pegasus, Sword of Striking, Dragonhelm, Luckstone,
Master Engineer (1#, 65 pts)

39 Halberdiers, 270 Full command
19 [Det] Halberdiers, 114 pts
19 [Det] Halberdiers, 114 pts
10 Archers, 70 pts
5 [Det] Archers, 35 pts

Demigryph Knights (3#, 174 pts)
Demigryph Knights (4#, 257 pts)
Musicant standard Gleaming Pennant, 5 pts

1 Great Cannon, 120 pts
Helblaster Volley Gun, 120 pts
Steam Tank, 250 pts
Seredain wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:36 pm Empire Light gun lines… don’t worry me so much. It’s easy to target the demigryphs early and the halberd block (in my experience) usually sits back making target priority much easier than when a whole armoured division is bearing down on you. The archers are excellent against halberdiers and really earn their salt. I do like having the extra mage in this context, though. Book of Hoeth + Scroll, lots of magic missiles with Hand of Glory, plus the 4 RBTs, is a lot of pew pew for infantry empire to handle, even with the steam tanks.
I'm not suggesting this build is especially good vs your list but it seems the main alternative to full metal jacket, as it were. I understand Empire less well than some other armies but this list seems unusual in omitting the War Altar, hence no double Banishment. It's still a respectable magic phase though with the powerful Magic Missiles, the Channels and the Prayers. Just not sure it's enough to win at range, even with the cannon targeting the RBT. I'm guessing the Helblaster is there to inhibit a direct attack. It's an all-comers list of course, I wonder which enemies are prompting the specific choices here.

Can you detail your current list Mr S?
I think any army that gives you the chance to use Fiery Convocation plays into my list's hands by giving me a juicy target and allowing me to use the RiP feature of the spell to nerf their magic phase. However it is hard to score big points off the halberd horde if they can hop into a building at the end of the game to avoid destruction. An annoying occurrence which can restrict you to only minor wins.

Steam tanks are a nightmare for the silver helms. This is a rough matchup for them. They're a great argument for placing the prince on foot with the phoenix guard. On which note, here's my current list!

Infantry Seredain’s High Elves 2.5K

Seredain Urithan - Prince - heavy armour, lion cloak, Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ring of Khaine’s Fury - 246.

Thalias - Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll - 290.

Caradath - Noble BSB - Lance, heavy armour, lion cloak, shield, Banner of the World Dragon; Griffon - Swooping Strike, Swiftsense - 356.

10 Silver Helms - Full Command, Shields - 260.

24 Archers - Full Command - 270.

5 Reavers - Spears and bows - 95.

22 Phoenix Guard - Full Command, Razor Standard - 405

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 280.

Frostheart Phoenix - 240.

Great Eagle - 50.

= 2498 points
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DrSlam
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1746 Post by DrSlam »

Hi Seredain,

Thanks for the update. Can I ask, how does your BSB on his griffon, with the BotWD, operate in your army? I don't think he can join units, so is he there as a magic and shooting magnet?

Also do you find that you have to be careful with your BSB on a griffon in close combats? I've tried using a hero on a griffon before but I was worried that there were many combats he couldn't take. I suppose he could be a flank harasser, or a warmachine hunter, but then as a BSB he's away from your army, which seems a shame?

Very curious as I think many high elf players have the beautiful Island of Blood hero and griffon model, but personally I'm not sure how to use that model in an army effectively.

Thanks

DrSlam
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1747 Post by Axiem »

Glad to hear you're still around @'Seredain'! Will be looking forward to any future posts.

Curious to hear your thoughts on The Old World as well if you have any -- looks like announcements are a few hours away (hopefully live by the time you're reading this).

Also -- no Cavalry Prince? Like the rest of the list though!

Kind regards,

Axiem
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1748 Post by Seredain »

Axiem wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:44 am Glad to hear you're still around @'Seredain'! Will be looking forward to any future posts.

Curious to hear your thoughts on The Old World as well if you have any -- looks like announcements are a few hours away (hopefully live by the time you're reading this).

Also -- no Cavalry Prince? Like the rest of the list though!

Kind regards,

Axiem
Hi Axiem,

Thank you for the well wishes! I'm a total tech potato and have so far failed to figure out how to reliably upload pictures. Thankfully I have SA to help the blind man through and in the meantime retain use of my fingers for typing.

I'm so excited for Old World. Tolkein (and others) once explained that the key to good fantasy is that the world actually makes sense in accordance with its own rules to the degree that your imagination is able to accept it as real and thereafter take root and grow. We place our characters in real cities stood on real ground. Then we can give them names and stories we care about. Without the real soil (and sun, rain, rivers, etc), nothing grows. The End Times and AoS events / worlds (in my view) make no such sense. How do people eat in the realm of fire? Does everyone just have magical weeties for breakfast? No-one knows least of all GW. So caring for these people and places is impossible. The return of the Old World is a return of the best of sand boxes. A soil box!

Yes, whither the cavalry prince? It started with taking out the hero characters from front-rank combat units. The mage from the phoenix guard, then the noble from the silver helm unit. In our 7th Ed book he had a 2+ re-rollable save, pretty good. In the 8th book he's fragile enough that serious opposition kills him in one-two rounds of combat. This forces defensive play with the helms, hence the reaver bow I grew accustomed to using on him. But that rather spoils the fun of using knights, particularly if you're facing two ironblasters or a couple of steam tanks.

In the end I've tried removing him from play. That just leaves the prince. He's a mobile threat, but he's not so much of a threat that it changes the basic nature of the army, which is that the phoenix guard are the ultimate arbiters of whether I win or lose a game (see SpellArcher's 'Crossed Swords' thread for a demonstration and short discussion of this - viewtopic.php?f=76&t=94052 ). For this reason I think it's worth trying to put the Giant Blade where the action is i.e. in the guard. It also saves me the 27 points of horse to spend on other things. Getting the Ring of Fury on this character without the need for a luxury second mage is a big draw. Also not having to dodge cannonballs turn 5-6 when the helms are mostly gone.

We'll see if an infantry prince gives my helms the freedom to play the periphery of the board more than before, of if they end up relegated out in favour of (say) a 5x5 Flaming Banner spear block. I need some games to find out!

Best wishes,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1749 Post by Seredain »

The Griffon of the World Dragon - some thoughts
DrSlam wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:53 am Hi Seredain,

Thanks for the update. Can I ask, how does your BSB on his griffon, with the BotWD, operate in your army? I don't think he can join units, so is he there as a magic and shooting magnet?

Also do you find that you have to be careful with your BSB on a griffon in close combats? I've tried using a hero on a griffon before but I was worried that there were many combats he couldn't take. I suppose he could be a flank harasser, or a warmachine hunter, but then as a BSB he's away from your army, which seems a shame?

Very curious as I think many high elf players have the beautiful Island of Blood hero and griffon model, but personally I'm not sure how to use that model in an army effectively.

Thanks

DrSlam
Hi DrSlam,

Thanks for the post and excellent question. I think he comes only after you've satisfied a couple of prerequisites:

1) Your board features buildings and one or two obstacles. Having been to a few tournaments which went out of their way to nerf cannons (restricting them to monster-or-rider and D3 wounds in the last case), I feel content about this. (Remember, as a large target he can't benefit from the cover of an obstacle, but cannonballs still roll on the ground and so will still hit the obstacle first unless the shot lands on his base pre-bounce).

2) You've already maxed out your lord and rare slots. Once you've got around 600 points in Lord and Rare choices respectively, comparing a griffon with a frostheart doesn't help you. Instead you're looking at putting more points either in your heroes slot, or your specials. Typically for me that meant a second noble or mage but, as discussed above, these are glass units which force certain a defensive attitude on the unit itself which might otherwise wanted to have been aggressive (helms) or pugnacious (guard). They also lack high-strength damage output, as do our other Special choices. So how about I put those points into consistent high-strength ASF attacks with complete freedom of movement and with access to +1 static res and 2++ against magic attacks..?

How to use:

1) Don't lose him. Seriously! I've faced off against good daemon players who will hide their Kairos (or similar) all game from my shooting and, by so doing, make it much harder to score points off them. Flying lets you hop around cover, stay out of charge arcs, and generally be a pain to catch. Since your a similar objective, but with a 3++ they can already defend themselves and this guy provides more utility and killing power.

2) Abuse his 18" leadership re-roll bubble. It's so strong. For years I anxiously (and slowly - apologies to my opponents) dressed the ranks of my army in order to walk that tightrope of trying to attack and defend in force without leaving key units outside of general and/or BSB range. Sometimes it was still impossible. A flying 18" bubble makes this so much easier.

3) A griffon BSB can achieve both of the above objectives and still provide value as a backline-defence piece. I've used heroes for this job before but this guy has a lot more punch and can perform the role as necessary behind the safety of a building or wall. This role flows from the defensive nature of the rest of my army.

4) If you're an attacking-style list, or just want to charges something, then I hope you've brought a column of helms, or some other deep ranks, to break those units open alongside the griffon. As you say, he's not a solo-charge piece against major units unless you've already shot them to bit and now need to finish them off.

5) Flank attacker. If possible, never charge the front of a unit if a safe flank-attack option is viable. Only one rank of enemy units can fight to the side.

6) Character assassin. The BSB (and uniquely his mount) have a 2+ ward save against magic attacks. Didn't role Arcane Unforging? Go nuts!

The above are general points but the enemies I had in mind when landing on him were particular. These are regular features of the strongest lists which I might otherwise struggle with. These are:

1) Daemons' beasts of nurgle. The beginning of the end for my old unit of 5 dragon princes and ubiquitous in the tournament scene. You need an answer. You can shelter everyone in your steadfast phoenix guard, or come out fighting. This guy does the latter.

2) Chaos Warriors: chariots, daemon princes, unkillable BSBs. Helms can bounce off a chariot if unlucky and get countercharged. Your prince can help there of course, but your strength 7 is so rare that you might not want to have to use it to eat chariots whilst the daemon prince runs amok. Mobile Str 6 attacks are just the job. Flight and 18" allows you to flee those overwhelming counters (line up your angles so your general is there for the rally) without taking the bubble away from the army. Just watch those angles!

3) High Elves' Frostheart phoenixes. I've not yet lost a game to High Elves because they have tended to go for more expensive infantry block-dominated armies which allowed me either to focus them down and win big, or avoid them and clear up the satellites. The exception to this is the Star Dragon / Double Frostheart / Big Helm Bus list (see Curu Olannon's thread), which (my phoenix guard notwithstanding) presents my shooting phase with an actual-or-almost (depending on the dice), threat overload. This guy murders frostheart phoenixes and evens the score.

4) All the other magical jank we hate. Chaos & normal Dwarf machines; Tzeetnch magic, Skullcannons... the list is long.

5) Irongut Deathstars. If you break the gutstar then you win the game, even if it means your BSB gets sniped by a cannon thereafter. Having all those extra Str 6 attacks getting in there alongside your phoenix guard feels good. The fact that he flies makes this easier to achieve when solo-sabretusks would otherwise make your cavalry prince's life a living hell.

I hope this helps Slam. You're right he's a beautiful model. Let us know how you get on with him!

Best wishes,

S
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SpellArcher
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1750 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:00 pm We had a second baby and then the world went away. Plus the now-two year old has been keeping us thin and tired by giving us a new virus every couple of weeks since September last year!
Bless their cotton socks!
Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:00 pm A daemon prince, juggernaut bus, chimeras and a cloud of chariots.
Not a subtle approach.
Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:01 pm The main juggernaut charge hit the phoenix guard, bounced, and broke.
Hooray!
Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:00 pm We’d spent so much time learning the rules for the roving giants, and messing about with them, that we ran out of time super early with me having very little on the board.
Boo!
Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:00 pm Third place. Not too shabby.
Indeed. Congratulations!
DrSlam wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:53 am Also do you find that you have to be careful with your BSB on a griffon in close combats?
My impression doctor, having faced it, is that Swiftsense and Swooping Strike make it good for when you need to blow through the foe quickly. Less so perhaps for protracted combats.
Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:05 pm I think any army that gives you the chance to use Fiery Convocation plays into my list's hands by giving me a juicy target and allowing me to use the RiP feature of the spell to nerf their magic phase.
Amen to that.

On first glance, an opponent's heart sinks on viewing the foot Prince list. Only a very aggressive player with a top-notch build (or a lunatic) will engage that PG block. It probably needs to be intentionally avoided and is extremely unlikely to give up points. All that shooting greatly restricts an opponent's freedom to maneouvre. The Archers are hard to get to and through, the RBT perhaps slightly less so.

The Silver Helms are killable and I personally doubt their utility, though you do have greater experience there. The Frostheart lets you attack, though cannon are a concern. Griffon BSB is obviously great against my Daemons and other armies with predominently ranged magical attacks (Dwarfs, Skaven, Wood Elves). I just wonder how troublesome having to hide him at first from some others will prove.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1751 Post by Axiem »

Your thoughts on TOW very much mirror my own! Some updates from Warhammer Fest: viewtopic.php?p=951025#p951025

Kind regards,

Axiem
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1752 Post by Seredain »

SA,

Good points - thanks. The helms by themselves are restricted to acting as fast cavalry but with a 2+ save. They'll beat other core units or move quickly to jump on war machines. A unit of 10 is enough to force a response from more expensive units and so can act as an effective distraction carnifex, particularly against factions with base strength 3. They're not a line unit unless you start to pile those ranks onto them and tech into the characters.

We've been discussing whether the Banner of Eternal Flame makes spearmen potentially the better unit considering you can get a unit of 25 FC with the Banner for only 5 points more. Now that my prince is on foot I'll be looking to try this at some point.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1753 Post by Prince of Spires »

Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:00 pm Sorry I'm late. We had a second baby and then the world went away. Plus the now-two year old has been keeping us thin and tired by giving us a new virus every couple of weeks since September last year!
Little people tend to do that to you. I've got two at home myself. To use an old saying, This too shall pass... ;)

Congrats on getting 3rd place. The last game scenario sounds fun, but perhaps a bit too weird and random for a tournament setting. Especially since you're playing with a timelimit, you want easy and none-random scenario's I think. Keeps it fair and streamlined.

Still, it does sound like the deamon player played realy well and capitalized on the few lucky moments that went his way. It would have an uphill battle for you if the game had lasted longer I think.

The PG Prince list is interesting. I think it capitalizes on something I keep noticing in other armies, and that is the lack of redirectors. I never leave home without a few disposable units whoes sole purpose is to let me control my opponents movement. But that somehow seems like a very HE thing to do. A lot of other armies seem to only bring hammers and anvils. They'll bring scouts if they are actually powerful (like DE or skinks), but their purpose is to take out warmachines and smaller units like archers.

I think such an environment lets you use the PG to their advantage. However, I wonder if you throw in a few eagles or reavers, then the PG unit becomes fairly easy to occupy for parts of the battle. Now, with an eagle and a unit of reavers, you can do the same. But it would lead to an interesting stand-off.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1754 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:07 pm
Seredain wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:00 pm Sorry I'm late. We had a second baby and then the world went away. Plus the now-two year old has been keeping us thin and tired by giving us a new virus every couple of weeks since September last year!
Little people tend to do that to you. I've got two at home myself. To use an old saying, This too shall pass... ;)

Congrats on getting 3rd place. The last game scenario sounds fun, but perhaps a bit too weird and random for a tournament setting. Especially since you're playing with a timelimit, you want easy and none-random scenario's I think. Keeps it fair and streamlined.

Still, it does sound like the deamon player played realy well and capitalized on the few lucky moments that went his way. It would have an uphill battle for you if the game had lasted longer I think.

The PG Prince list is interesting. I think it capitalizes on something I keep noticing in other armies, and that is the lack of redirectors. I never leave home without a few disposable units whoes sole purpose is to let me control my opponents movement. But that somehow seems like a very HE thing to do. A lot of other armies seem to only bring hammers and anvils. They'll bring scouts if they are actually powerful (like DE or skinks), but their purpose is to take out warmachines and smaller units like archers.

I think such an environment lets you use the PG to their advantage. However, I wonder if you throw in a few eagles or reavers, then the PG unit becomes fairly easy to occupy for parts of the battle. Now, with an eagle and a unit of reavers, you can do the same. But it would lead to an interesting stand-off.
Hi Prince,

Thank you for the post. All agreed! My opponent (Chaos Warriors not daemons FYI) played a flawless game and deserved his win for sure. The way he covered each chariot with more chariots locked my left-flank phoenix out in a manner I found very impressive. There was no room at the inn. Scenarios + 3,000 points is a lot for my end-of-day dough brain to handle. As you say I think 'streamlined' is better.

I've been turning over the redirectors problem in my mind since beginning Project Griffon. Up to that point I'd accepted the need for eagles as a given. I think in part this was a hangover from my 7th Ed list which was much more MSU than our 8th Ed book really allows (or promotes, if you prefer). The bottom line is that steadfast blocks which don't need to charge don't need redirectors in the same way as a smaller unit does. Particularly one with lances.

The thought process continues even having cut my redirectors down to two (one eagle and one unit of reavers). I still have one unit of helms and two monsters who want to give, not receive, charges. But what if I replaced the silver helms with 25 spearmen? I'd essentially get another "redirector" in the form of a one-piece steadfast unit as opposed to knights + eagle. Move up the spears with impunity, tilt them at an angle which gives you a flank charge in the event that the enemy takes the bait. Then I could spend those extra 50 rare points on something which does actual DPS. That explains the tournament leanings against redirectors, for me. People are stuck with core and can take redirectors from there if they need. They then want damage output from their other slots. Who can blame them! We can tech into our core heavy cavalry better than most, but that doesn't mean we must. I am quite obsessive about my ability to kill enemy redirectors in any case. It's why I like shooting and magic missiles so much.

The idea of removing the helms entirely troubles my soul because I love their movement. But there are enough problematic cloud units (beasts, manglers, sabretusks, yes also eagles) which can force those helms into a standoff role in many games or tie them up if my shooting underperforms. Ironically, a spearman block which is unafraid of taking a charge could theoretically move up more more aggressively than a cavalry unit which must charge or die. I might just take another unit of archers but the chance to play aggressively is the thing and, in this regard, only the spears can take the Banner of Eternal Flame. SpellArcher and I have to'd and fro'd on the virtues of flaming attacks for some time - apparently the winner of the US Masters used them - and I remember standing off nervously from enough Beasts of Nurgle, Troll units and Trollguts-Ironguts that maybe the Master knows what he's doing! Also buildings are everywhere.

So the next build I'll try will be this one:

Prince - heavy armour, Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ring of Khaine’s Fury - 240

Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll - 290.

Noble BSB - Lance, heavy armour, lion cloak, shield, Banner of the World Dragon; Griffon - Swooping Strike, Swiftsense - 356.

25 Spearmen - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 265.

24 Archers - Full Command - 270.

5 Reavers - Spears and bows - 95.

21 Phoenix Guard - Full Command, Razor Standard - 390

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 210.

10 Sisters of Avelorn - 140

Frostheart Phoenix - 240.

= 2496 points

The hardest list for my old army to crack, by far, was the All Bells and Whistles Irongutstar ogre list. As long as my griffon has a building or obstacle to play around (and in 8th every balanced table should have these things, because Cannons), I think this list could have its number.

Best wishes,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1755 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 8:12 am Project Griffon
It's now a Thing!
Seredain wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 8:12 am People are stuck with core and can take redirectors from there if they need.
I'm coming round to this way of thinking.
Seredain wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 8:12 am Move up the spears with impunity, tilt them at an angle which gives you a flank charge in the event that the enemy takes the bait.
This kind of positioning could be key I think. There's a lot of stuff that can chew through Spears very quickly but they should hold for at least a round and if you can coordinate properly with your other units it could be a goer.

One advantage of longer format discussions, such as here is we get more chance to flesh out ideas and see deeper implications. Instant messaging is really useful but it can have limits.
Seredain wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 8:12 am SpellArcher and I have to'd and fro'd on the virtues of flaming attacks for some time
It may (or may not) amuse you to know that Lore of Nurgle has a spell which boosts Regen to 3+. This can be bubbled!

:)
Seredain wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 8:12 am Irongutstar ogre list.
Remember that game you played to win your first tournament? You went in with the Helms knowing they'd get creamed but also knowing the characters would hold on Stubborn and you could throw in massive force next turn.

My feeling on your new list is that it's ambitious and may require play and tweaking to reach it's potential. I'm starting to believe though.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1756 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 12:45 pm
Seredain wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 8:12 am People are stuck with core and can take redirectors from there if they need.
I'm coming round to this way of thinking.
I think reavers are worth it because they are core. However, I would still bring eagles if Reavers weren't core. The ability to take a unit out of the game for 1 or 2 turns is very powerful, and well worth 50 pts. I played against a skaven plague (with furnace) list last week. And stalling the plague furnace unit for a turn helped me win the game.

This is even more valuable for a low mobility list. Being able to pick your battles and dictate the flow of the game is well worth it.

I like the PG list. However,(as I remarked to a similar list recently) it pretty much boils down to can your opponent deal with the Phoenix Guard unit + prince or not. If they can you lose. If they can't you win. This makes the list vulnerable to dreaded 13th and dwellers and the like, as well as anything that can direct a large number of (weaker) attacks at the unit.

It requires some testing to see if the spearmen are worth it or not. They'd be great against anything with regen (since there the volume of attacks usually matters). However, they'll probably melt against a lot of other units. They might be too expensive to be worth it with the Banner of Eternal Flame. I guess it also depends if you play blood and glory or not. If you do, the extra banner is great, for the extra point of fortitude.

Why does the Griffon BSB get the BotWD? Is the 2+ against magical stuff worth it compared to bringing more items?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1757 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 12:58 pm I played against a skaven plague (with furnace) list last week. And stalling the plague furnace unit for a turn helped me win the game.
More on this please Rod!
Prince of Spires wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 12:58 pm Why does the Griffon BSB get the BotWD? Is the 2+ against magical stuff worth it compared to bringing more items?
Griffon has no other saves, lots of things can kill him. BotWD gives him virtual immunity to spell damage, Skaven, Dwarf, Daemon and Chaos Warrior shooting and lots of close combat attacks, including from most characters. Armies like Wood Elves and Chaos Dwarfs also bring substantial magical shooting.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1758 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 12:58 pm
SpellArcher wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 12:45 pm
Seredain wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 8:12 am People are stuck with core and can take redirectors from there if they need.
I'm coming round to this way of thinking.
I think reavers are worth it because they are core. However, I would still bring eagles if Reavers weren't core. The ability to take a unit out of the game for 1 or 2 turns is very powerful, and well worth 50 pts. I played against a skaven plague (with furnace) list last week. And stalling the plague furnace unit for a turn helped me win the game.

This is even more valuable for a low mobility list. Being able to pick your battles and dictate the flow of the game is well worth it.

I like the PG list. However,(as I remarked to a similar list recently) it pretty much boils down to can your opponent deal with the Phoenix Guard unit + prince or not. If they can you lose. If they can't you win. This makes the list vulnerable to dreaded 13th and dwellers and the like, as well as anything that can direct a large number of (weaker) attacks at the unit.

It requires some testing to see if the spearmen are worth it or not. They'd be great against anything with regen (since there the volume of attacks usually matters). However, they'll probably melt against a lot of other units. They might be too expensive to be worth it with the Banner of Eternal Flame. I guess it also depends if you play blood and glory or not. If you do, the extra banner is great, for the extra point of fortitude.

Why does the Griffon BSB get the BotWD? Is the 2+ against magical stuff worth it compared to bringing more items?
Hi Rod, SA

Great comments both - thanks!

The Banner elevates the piece to a higher level threat. He’d be useful more often with a bow+potion combo but with this flag he has the potential to he’s alpha. A key issue is that the thing’s he’s alpha against are things my list otherwise might struggle with: daemon princes, double frostheart, solo beast clouds, plus all the magic shooting out there. In general he’s a leadership buff unit who fight. He either hides behind something or in combat!

On core redirectors, fielding none is a punt for me. Except that, really, so long as they can hold on steadfast, the spears have the same essential purpose with the added benefit of getting flaming attacks. There’s some nice synergy there with the monsters. The spears will inflict their flaming damage before the (non-asf) monsters attack so allow them to bypass enemy regeneration.

Having considered your comments Rod (that long-form conversation, SA), I actually made a change by splitting the sisters into two units of 5 (taking the phoenix guard back up to 21). These will make good charge blockers in a pinch! As a matter of course you can stand one unit 3” infront of the spearmen. The enemy get an overrun into you but you can delay the charge against the spears until your turn, during which you can counterattack with your monsters before any damage is dealt. Because I can lean on steadfast a little more heavily than I could with 2 ranks of helms, setups like the above might actually allow me to advance with more impunity and, therefore, more aggressively.

The adventure continues with the list below. Thanks again for your time chaps.

Best wishes,

S

Prince - Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Talisman of Obsidian - 244.

Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Khaine’s Fury - 315.

559

Noble BSB - Lance, heavy armour, lion cloak, shield, Banner of the World Dragon; Griffon - Swooping Strike - 336.

336

35 Spearmen - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 355.

24 Archers - Full Command - 270.

625

21 Phoenix Guard - Full Command, Razor Standard - 390

390

1 Frostheart Phoenix - 240.

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 210.

5 Firebows - 70

5 Firebows - 70

590

= 2500 points
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1759 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:14 pm The Banner elevates the piece to a higher level threat. He’d be useful more often with a bow+potion combo but with this flag he has the potential to he’s alpha
A capacity to do unusual things? Maybe it's like the Shield of Saphery PG, the 3+ Ward combined with a still formidable offense takes it to places other units can't reach. Fielding Sisters involves some compromise but it's worth it to take your other shooting to the next level against Regen?
Seredain wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:14 pm Except that, really, so long as they can hold on steadfast, the spears have the same essential purpose with the added benefit of getting flaming attacks.
In the game we just played they functioned quite well fending off outflanking attempts. I guess the acid test would have to be a direct assault.
Seredain wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:14 pm I actually made a change by splitting the sisters into two units of 5
As we've discussed I suspect this is a good change which will make my life more difficult!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1760 Post by MasterOfNone »

How do you think your Griffon BSB compares to Caradryan on Ashtari?
What do you reckon would happen replacing the Griffon BSB + phoenix with Caradryan on Ashtari + a tooled up Noble on Great Eagle?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1761 Post by MasterOfNone »

Seredain wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:14 pm
Prince - Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Talisman of Obsidian - 244.
Not sure how you came to that value:
Prince 140
Giant blade 60
Merwyrm 15
Dragon armour 20
MR +1 15
Tot 250?

Prince 140
Giant blade 60
Merwyrm 15
Heavy armour 6
MR +1 15
Tot 236
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1762 Post by ether_drake »

Hello!

It's been about a dozen years since I've commented on this blog and I'm so pleased to see that its still running and @seredain is still playing High Elves.

With the announcement of Old World I'm hoping some hype gets some old WFB out in my local scene and my High Elves can ride again. The content here is inspiring me to dust off my elves and get some hobbying done even if there are currently no games to be had.

I just want to express my appreciation for the quality posts here and the long ago recommendation of J.E. Lendon's Soldiers and Ghosts - it led me on a long diversion through ancient historical wargaming :D

Cheers
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1763 Post by Seredain »

MasterOfNone wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:06 pm
Seredain wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:14 pm
Prince - Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Talisman of Obsidian - 244.
Not sure how you came to that value:
Prince 140
Giant blade 60
Merwyrm 15
Dragon armour 20
MR +1 15
Tot 250?

Prince 140
Giant blade 60
Merwyrm 15
Heavy armour 6
MR +1 15
Tot 236
MoN,

Oh God you’re right!! And I miswrote Obsidian Trinket too. Can I blame childcare? I suppose this way I get to dig out a cool little 5 point item somewhere.

Thanks for the catch! Please feel free to check over the rest of my list…

Best,

Seredain
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1764 Post by Seredain »

ether_drake wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:47 pm Hello!

It's been about a dozen years since I've commented on this blog and I'm so pleased to see that its still running and @seredain is still playing High Elves.

With the announcement of Old World I'm hoping some hype gets some old WFB out in my local scene and my High Elves can ride again. The content here is inspiring me to dust off my elves and get some hobbying done even if there are currently no games to be had.

I just want to express my appreciation for the quality posts here and the long ago recommendation of J.E. Lendon's Soldiers and Ghosts - it led me on a long diversion through ancient historical wargaming :D

Cheers
Ether Drake,

Welcome back buddy! The great thing about high elf miniatures is that, like their old world alter egos, they love for a long time. Get that dust off! I’m super psyched about Old World. If you have to watch your flanks like in ancient times, you’ve got a proper battle game.

If you pressed me, I’d confess that my greatest wish for Old World is that it replicates 40K’s turn order: move, shoot, charge. It’s intuitive and it allows greater player freedom for manoeuvering into the attack. By far the worst thing about WHFB is having to measure all the angles and standing off for fear of failing charges.

But I’m still thrilled it’s coming back. Where there’s life there’s hope!

Best,

Seredain
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1765 Post by Seredain »

MasterOfNone wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:04 am How do you think your Griffon BSB compares to Caradryan on Ashtari?
What do you reckon would happen replacing the Griffon BSB + phoenix with Caradryan on Ashtari + a tooled up Noble on Great Eagle?
MasterOfNone,

Thanks for the question. In truth I hadn’t considered Caradrayan at all. My starting points were collectively 1) I need a BSB, 2) I’d like some more high strength attacks and 3) my lord allocation was full (essentially I give up the chance to take a dragon by insisting on an archmage).

For me Caradryan feels like a luxury choice. A BSB is essential so the only “luxury” element is the cost of the griffon which is in turn less of a luxury when you can protect it with the World Dragon Banner and benefit from the enormous 18” leadership re-roll bubble.

Meanwhile, I feel like the eagle is almost neither one thing nor the other. It’s more expensive than a horse and as vulnerable to getting shot as the griffon, but without providing a significant boost to damage output and without the buffs to the army standard. (Nor terror for that matter). Probably the best use for the eagle noble would be a Potion of Strength / Reaver Bow setup to abuse the flying movement for maximum utility.

Right now I’m thinking that the Griffon of the World Dragon gives the most bang for hero slot bucks. For balance I’d say his worst matchup is probably Empire. But my silver helms were a liability in that matchup too so actually I think the matchup has overall got easier. Ogres we’ll see about. You need a decent selection of terrain to mitigate cannons in 8th.

A bit of a stream of consciousness before we take the babies for a walk in Hyde Park on this fine bank holiday. I hope it helps!

Best,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1766 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 6:45 pm
Seredain wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:14 pm The Banner elevates the piece to a higher level threat. He’d be useful more often with a bow+potion combo but with this flag he has the potential to he’s alpha
A capacity to do unusual things? Maybe it's like the Shield of Saphery PG, the 3+ Ward combined with a still formidable offense takes it to places other units can't reach. Fielding Sisters involves some compromise but it's worth it to take your other shooting to the next level against Regen?
Yes exactly on both counts SA. I think the 2 x5 sisters represent an increase in threat level at range, particularly when regeneration features so commonly in the hardiest armies, whilst also saving me spending 100+ points on redirectors which I can spend on getting more DPS out of my points. It makes taking the griffon possible - and that beast buys me more output than I was getting out of another ordinary or horse-riding hero.

The World Dragon Banner means he can punch up in a way that other models can’t. Particularly useful against targets which my bolt throwers would otherwise have to become obsessed by - like daemon princes. As such he not only gets me better leadership coverage and DPS, he has the potential to allow more focus from my shooting phase. There are a surprising number of synergies hidden in these latest changes!

As I said on your wonderful Crossing Swords thread, I look forward to our next bout!

Best,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1767 Post by MasterOfNone »

Seredain wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:55 am MasterOfNone,

Thanks for the question. In truth I hadn’t considered Caradrayan at all. My starting points were collectively 1) I need a BSB, 2) I’d like some more high strength attacks and 3) my lord allocation was full (essentially I give up the chance to take a dragon by insisting on an archmage).

For me Caradryan feels like a luxury choice. A BSB is essential so the only “luxury” element is the cost of the griffon which is in turn less of a luxury when you can protect it with the World Dragon Banner and benefit from the enormous 18” leadership re-roll bubble.
All valid points. Key one is that the BSB is a must.
Although, one could forego the Prince and the phoenix, taking instead Caradryan on Ishtari, then have spare points for a lot of bolt throwers and Sisters.
Seredain wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:55 am Meanwhile, I feel like the eagle is almost neither one thing nor the other. It’s more expensive than a horse and as vulnerable to getting shot as the griffon, but without providing a significant boost to damage output and without the buffs to the army standard. (Nor terror for that matter). Probably the best use for the eagle noble would be a Potion of Strength / Reaver Bow setup to abuse the flying movement for maximum utility.
I've always wanted to use a Noble on eagle kitted as you described, but at the end the points are more required elsewhere. Too bad, because I do have the model.

Hope you had a good time in Hyde Park!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1768 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:55 am Meanwhile, I feel like the eagle is almost neither one thing nor the other. It’s more expensive than a horse and as vulnerable to getting shot as the griffon,
The griffon is a Monster and hence with the rider the model has six wounds overall. An eagle rider is Monstrous Cavalry, so only has three. With it's combined profile though it can be built to be highly resistant to massed low strength attacks which the griffon can be vulnerable to. I take the point that it lacks the punch this list is looking for though.
MasterOfNone wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 6:24 pm All valid points. Key one is that the BSB is a must.
Although, one could forego the Prince and the phoenix, taking instead Caradryan on Ishtari, then have spare points for a lot of bolt throwers and Sisters.
By my reckoning you could fit mounted Caradryan (I've faced him and the built-in Flaming Attacks plus Thunderstomp are lethal against Regenerating infantry) with tooled-up Eagle BSB (I'd max out protection and use him like a Dark Elf peg rider). Then you need a magic phase and maybe even a Prince from the Lords allowance.
Seredain wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:11 am As I said on your wonderful Crossing Swords thread, I look forward to our next bout!
Very kind sir, my brush has not been idle!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1769 Post by MasterOfNone »

SpellArcher wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:56 pm Very kind sir, my brush has not been idle!
An update on your painting blog is due then!
Always happy to see other people's work :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1770 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:18 pm Always happy to see other people's work :)
20230607_204115~2.jpg
20230607_204115~2.jpg (972.67 KiB) Viewed 2831 times
Well here are the Plague Toads. Not amazing but they took me forever. I hope Seredain won't mind my posting them here as an example of the horrors he's fighting!
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