How to deal with Skaven as High elves

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taldarinzphoenix
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How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#1 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ive played 3 games against a skaven player, and all three games, ive felt like i had lost the game before my turn 2.

Between the stormvermin storm banner, some combination of the plague claw catapult, warp lightning cannon, doomwheel, and hellpit abomination, along side the scorch spell, plague spell or dreaded 13th spell, about 800 pts of my army is gone before i take my turn 2.

The warmachines are very difficult to deal with with the storm banner ruining my eagles and my frost phoenix for the first turn or 2.

Im going to bring the banner of the world dragon next game to save against scorch… and I want to use shadow lore but im feeling like if I don't go life, I cant win

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Would you mind posting your list taldarinzphoenix? That would give us a good idea of the mechanics of this match-up.

taldarinzphoenix
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#3 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I have used some minor variations, but the one i used in the last game was this:

Lord-
Archmage, lore of shadow book of Hoeth, Talisman of preservation
(I rolled wither, enfeeble, occams and took melekoths)
Heros
Noble BSB Shield of merwyrm and sword of might
Mage Lv1 high magic- Dispel scroll

Core:
10x archers musician
5x reavers, bows
30x spearmen full command, Banner of eternal flame

Special:
25x Phoenix Guard- Razor standard

Rare:
2x RBTs
2x Great eagles
Frost Phoenix

taldarinzphoenix
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#4 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I asked the skaven player to bring the same list again. I am going to try to make the following modification:

Archmage of shadow Lv4, Dispel scroll

Noble BSB, Banner of the world dragon and Halberd
Noble, Dragon armor, Halberd, Obsidian Amulet

Core: 5x reavers, Bows
41 spearmen full command, banner of eternal flame

24x phoenix guard
5x swordmasters

2x RBTs
2x Great eagles
1x frost phoenix.

Ill can put the archmage and banner of the dragon in with the spearmen, then ill put the other noble with the obsidian amulet in with the phoenix guard, giving both my big units a 2+ Vs the warp lightning cannon and Scorch/plague.

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:15 am
I have used some minor variations, but the one i used in the last game was this:
It's a decent list that should do well against most enemies. It relies on Infantry though and Skaven are really good at killing Infantry. They're just a bad match-up for the list. That said, I feel High Magic would serve it better than Shadow here. The 3+ Ward from Shield of Saphery would really help protect the Phoenix Guard. Fiery Convocation becomes a must-dispel, if that goes off on his main block it will wreak havoc. Not only that, it's Remains in Play so might well tempt the Skaven to burn Power Dice dispelling it in their phase.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:25 am
I asked the skaven player to bring the same list again. I am going to try to make the following modification:
The reasoning makes sense, I just fear that when that Spear unit contacts the enemy, the lightly protected characters are going to die. Worth trying though I guess. Do you have any other models you might use to change things up further?

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#6 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I own about 6000 points of H elves, i dont own any dragons, Sisters of averlorn, or shadow warriors, but I have a solid collection of everything else, what would you recommend?

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

Something like this perhaps?


Archmage, High Lvl 4, 4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury

BSB, World Dragon, B/Steed, Lance, D/Armour, Shield
Noble, B/Steed, D/Armr, Ogre Blade, E/Shield, Luckstone

13 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Reavers, Spears and Bows
5 Reavers, Spears

23 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame

4 RBT

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#8 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ok i have all the models except a mounted bsb but i have a silverhelm standard bearer I can proxy. I forgot about lichbone pendant! Thats better than a 2nd noble on points.

I have little experience taking khaines ring on an actual mage, how do you like to use it? 1 die it to start off the magic phase? 1-2 dice it after they're out of dispel dice? I assume the mage carrying it does not select the soul quench spell too

I fear 4 RBTs will fair poorly vs the stormvermin standard. Ive been bringing 2, and they do practically nothing by the time the doomwheel gets to them.
With this defensive setup, i guess save all my dice to try to stop the dreaded 13th?

Plague claw catapults will tear apart the silverhelms

I really like the setup on the Extra noble!

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
I have little experience taking khaines ring on an actual mage, how do you like to use it? 1 die it to start off the magic phase? 1-2 dice it after they're out of dispel dice? I assume the mage carrying it does not select the soul quench spell too
The Archmage has a 90% chance of generating Fiery Convocation, if he doesn't get it, take Arcane Unforging and target the Grey Seer. Apotheosis and Hand of Glory (can be used to speed a unit up) are good picks because he can cast them even while in combat to get that crucial +1 from Shield of Saphery. Walk between Worlds is also great. Soul Quench isn't stupid because you want to take wounds off the Abomination before combat, that's the obvious use for the Ring too.

If you have Convocation, cast it immediately on the Seer's unit if you have at least 5 dice, that should get it off, 6 if you have them. He should use his Dispel Scroll at once, he probably won't stop it with dice. Turn 2 you've a good chance of getting it past his defenses. He then has that nasty choice between allowing it to burn and using up Power Dice to dispel it in his phase.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
i guess save all my dice to try to stop the dreaded 13th?
He needs 6 dice for a decent shot at 13th, he may not even get those. If he does, he has a 26% chance of Irresistible Force. Nothing you can do about that but it won't kill the Archmage. He has maybe a 60% (?) chance of getting the spell off, if he does, scroll it because his total will be high and even 6 Dispel Dice probably won't stop it. Next time he casts it, yes try dispelling if you have 6 dice, though the RIP from Convocation and previous Miscasts might be cramping his style by then.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
I fear 4 RBTs will fair poorly vs the stormvermin standard. Ive been bringing 2, and they do practically nothing by the time the doomwheel gets to them
I would immediately target all of them at either the Abomination with massed shots or the Doomwheel with single bolts and continue to do so. There's a 50% chance the Storm Banner stops working at the start of your enemy's next turn, then another 50% it stops working before your second turn, already good odds. After this happens, 4 RBT begin to be very unpleasant. Consider deploying them close to your baseline (they'll probably still be in range immediately) and spread out with at least 6 inches (to prevent Panic tests) between each. It'll take the foe a long time to get to all of them.

In general, deploy your cavalry towards the wings then get it around his flanks. Reavers should both be Vanguarded 12" forward before Turn 1 and then head straight for his war machines. Target either the Abomination or Doomwheel with shooting and/or Fury of Khaine, then charge it with the Helms or possibly the Dragon Princes. If you can, then Overrun or Reform to get in position to threaten the Skaven flanks. The whole set up owes a lot to the theory and praxis of Seredain. His thread is huge but there's a lot of goodness in it:

www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
Plague claw catapults will tear apart the silverhelms
These are Warpstone Weapons (Skaven book pg 47), have Magical Attacks and thus run into the 2+ Ward from World Dragon.

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#10 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Thank you for the wonderful breakdown, I did not realize plague claw was also a warpstone weapon!

I feel much more confident going into the combat, Ill post a short play by play after the match!

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm
Thank you for the wonderful breakdown
You're welcome sir.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm
I feel much more confident going into the combat
No promises but hopefully the game should be more competitive.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm
Ill post a short play by play after the match!
Please do!

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#12 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ok i played the game with a variation of the list we discussed
what I ended up bringing was this:

i brought an Archmage, shadow magic Lvl 4, 2+ crown of attrazar, book of hoeth (i figured id try to pit of shades the bell off the table)
mage with high magic lv1 dispel scroll, ring of khaine

BSB, World Dragon, B/Steed, Lance, D/Armour, Shield
Noble, B/Steed, D/Armr, might blade, E/Shield, Luckstone

13 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Reavers, Spears and Bows
5 Reavers, Spears

25 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, banner of eternal flame

2 RBTs
frost phoenix

Turn 1: skaven player goes first, pushes forward with stormvermin horde with a bell, plague monk horde with plague furnace, doomwheel in his left flank and abomination down the middle. 1 plague claw catapult.
- magic phase: rolls an 11, rings the bell and it goes forward 3" or so, ends up trying to cast howling warpgale, which i stopped, scorch which i stopped, then 6 dice the 13th on a miscast, and killed 15 phoenix guard.
shooting, shoots plague claw catapult at my silver helms, killed 2, nothing else really did anything

my turn 1: my opponent acitvates the storm banner. i brought my cavalry up the sides, and backed up a bit with the Phoenix and phoenix guard (couldnt get a charge and wanted to make a charge unlikely for the abomination, i think i was like 16" away)
my magic phase: rolled an 8 (5/3) 1 die khaines ring, and get it, 1 die melekoths miasma (with book of hoeth) it succeeds. he lets both through. stormvermin unit loses 2 initiative. Pit of shades cast on 6 dice, no miscast, he scrolls it. f
shooting: shot all my bolts at the plague furnace to try to kill the plague priest, (12 shots) it was my best target at the time, ends up doing no wounds.

opponent turn 2: the storm banner continues. abomination gets a ridiculous 16" charge into my frostheart. he surges up the middle more with plague and storm hordes. the bell rings the scorth result which i had to dispel with 1 die. doom wheel gets close to my RBTs.
opponent magic phase: he gets 8 dice to my 5. tries to cast warp gale, and i dispel. tries to scortch, miscasts, and kills a few phoenix guard, then eats 3 warpstone tokens and 6 diceds dreaded 13th and miscasts, killing the rest of my phoenix guard (12 of them i think were left), turning them into rats next to my phoenix) plague claw catapult shoots at silverhelms and kills 1 more. doomwheel kills a few reavers out of a reaver squad

my turn 2: the storm banner continues. reaver charges the plague claw catapult, the other reavers block the doomwheel form being able to move to my RBTs. my silverhelms charge the flank of the bell.
my magic phase: i got 7 dice (6/1) i 1 die cast melekoths at the plague furnace lowering iniative of plague monks by 2. it goes through, i then 6 dice tried to cast pit of shades , and fish for a miscast with the book of hoeth, got my pit of shades, and it scattered 6'' off the unit. the helms do some damage to the unit, but there were like 50 of them and they were ubreakable, they got to combat reform, and did, now are facing the silverhelms

his turn 3: the stormbanner stops, his doomwheel killed my reavers on that side, my reavers ended up killing the plague claw catapult. my phoenix ended up killing the abomination, it made 3 rat swarms, and the phoenix got charged by the 12 srats created earlier by dreaded 13th. my mage was all alone now, becasuse his unit was wiped out, opponent rolled lowish on winds, maybe a 5 to my 3, and 5 dice dreaded 13th on my lv4 mage, which i had to use my discpel scroll on.
the rats ended up not doing much to the silverhelms, the silverhelms killed myabe 6 rats, but ultimately there was still maybe 35 left after all the miscasts. plague rats killed my RBTs, my phoenix lost his last wound.

my turn 3: i cast wither on the rats, but he dispelled it, i enfeebling foe'd them and got a 1, which went off. not much else happened, killed more rats, lost a silver helm, they were stil there and this was the only unit i had, minus the reavers that were comign to try to flank. his turn 4: doom wheel gets over to charge my silverhelms next turn, rats that killed my phoenix go over to also flank my silverhelms.

his turn 4: he gets 13th off again against my archmage, which i didnt have dice to dispel, kiilling him. the plague monks, (which i did manage to shoot and kill the plague priest earlier, i forgot to mention that) reform and start after the silverhelms also. at this point, with the archmage gone, and 2 unbreakable hoardes, i called the game.


Still lost pretty brutally, he almost tabled, me, i managed to kill:
1 flamethrower rat detachment
plague claw catapult
abomination
the plague priest
maybe 25-30 stormvermin, most of which was killed by his own miscasting. but there were still a good 25 left.
a unit of 30 skaven slaves. i dont think a single plague monk died.

dice really didnt go my way, especially during the magic phases. but i actually thought trying to pit of shades the bell was a better move than fiery convocating the unit bc they have the 5+ ward vs magic. I may have been wrong.

i will say the silverhelms did some good work. the phoenix guard were completely useless and did literally nothing. my lv1 high mage did more actual work than the lv4 of shadow. im very impressed with khaines ring, i'll probably start taking this on an archmage of high magic with book of hoeth and either a 6+ ward or golden crown of atrazzar. overall, skaven are very difficult to deal with!

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am
Still lost pretty brutally
Your opponent's dice were horrific taldarinzphoenix.

1. IF's 13th first two turns, 1 in 16 chance.
2. Miscasts seemed not to hurt the Seer himself.
3. Storm Banner lasts two of your turns, 1 in 4 chance.
4. Catapult kills 3 Silver Helms, not scattering off, getting the 5+ to wound and passing the 2+ Ward.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am
i actually thought trying to pit of shades the bell was a better move than fiery convocating the unit bc they have the 5+ ward vs magic.
Shadow isn't stupid but I still feel High Magic would have served you better here. Convocation doesn't scatter and still kills almost half the unit immediately, as well as potentially wounding any characters present. It's a spell you need to see used to get how strong it is, destroyed my Plaguebearers (and they are tough) in a recent battle.Then your opponent has to decide whether to use 5 power dice to dispel in his turn. HIgh also has a good Magic Missile to wound the Abomination before it sees combat. Not to mention the movement spells.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am
i dont think a single plague monk died.
I know this is easier said than done but your first priority has to be killing the Rares, then you can outmaneouvre him. Only target the monk block if things are going great elsewhere near the end of the game. 4 RBT instead of 2 would help with that. The Frostheart is the stronger all-comers pick but vs the Storm Banner not so much. Dragon Princes could have acted freely at once.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am
the phoenix guard were completely useless and did literally nothing.
Phoenix Guard with a High Magic Archmage (for that 3+ Ward) are one of the strongest units in the game, most armies really struggle to deal with them, so they're a great all-comers pick. They have very few hard counters, unfortunately the hardest is Dreaded 13th. Alternatives include the Star Dragon and an almost pure cavalry list, both of which can be very effective against Skaven.

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#14 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

This game admittedly went much better than the first because I did manage to kill a few things, but you are correct in that I felt oppressed by his dice, but thats fantasy. he rolled a result of a 7 on 2 of the 3 miscasts, which only took out 7-8 rats per miscast.

I dont love trying to very specifically tailor a list vs a single opponent, it kindof feels cheesy if you pull it off, which is why i tend to prefer all comers lists, but i think that your suggestions are pretty good even for all comers.

I just need more games under my belt. I will definitely go for a lv4 high mage next game, I got some good use out of the book of Hoeth too, I think I passed 2 casting and 2 dispelling attempts in the game because of the reroll, and my crown of atrazzar went unused.

Do you think this Archmage is a viable setup?( Phoenix guard are my preferred bunker for characters) : Lv4 high magic, Book of Hoeth, ring of Khaine, Golden Crown (can be swapped for the talisman of protection, that might be better)
(I like the idea of being able to combo the ring of Khaine with book of Hoeth for a 1 die cast). I always have at least MR(1) in the unit, usually from a bsb with obsidian trinket)

Thanks for the help and advice! I will get these pesky rats! My opponent wants me to play alarielle/White lion hoarde for our next game… hopefully inwont be blasted by 13th 😂

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#15 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:52 pm
I dont love trying to very specifically tailor a list vs a single opponent, it kindof feels cheesy if you pull it off, which is why i tend to prefer all comers lists, but i think that your suggestions are pretty good even for all comers.
Thanks. I agree in general but priority number one here is beating Skaven I suggest. Then you can extrapolate from there.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:52 pm
Lv4 high magic, Book of Hoeth, ring of Khaine, Golden Crown (can be swapped for the talisman of protection, that might be better)
The problem with this guy is he is in a combat unit. If they engage the enemy, he's at much more risk than if he started with a 4+ Ward. He could go Book of Hoeth, 4+ Ward. Then he foregoes the Dispel Scroll though. A successful casting of Dreaded 13th will probably get past 6 dispel dice plus Book as he's already on a 25+, whilst a Scroll will stop it. He has to get lucky to IF and exceedingly lucky to IF twice in a row.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:52 pm
Thanks for the help and advice! I will get these pesky rats! My opponent wants me to play alarielle/White lion hoarde for our next game… hopefully inwont be blasted by 13th
You're welcome. Yes, I'm not sure that unit will do any better than the PG but who knows?

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