How to deal with Skaven as High elves

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taldarinzphoenix
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How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#1 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ive played 3 games against a skaven player, and all three games, ive felt like i had lost the game before my turn 2.

Between the stormvermin storm banner, some combination of the plague claw catapult, warp lightning cannon, doomwheel, and hellpit abomination, along side the scorch spell, plague spell or dreaded 13th spell, about 800 pts of my army is gone before i take my turn 2.

The warmachines are very difficult to deal with with the storm banner ruining my eagles and my frost phoenix for the first turn or 2.

Im going to bring the banner of the world dragon next game to save against scorch… and I want to use shadow lore but im feeling like if I don't go life, I cant win

SpellArcher
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Would you mind posting your list taldarinzphoenix? That would give us a good idea of the mechanics of this match-up.

taldarinzphoenix
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:55 pm

Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#3 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I have used some minor variations, but the one i used in the last game was this:

Lord-
Archmage, lore of shadow book of Hoeth, Talisman of preservation
(I rolled wither, enfeeble, occams and took melekoths)
Heros
Noble BSB Shield of merwyrm and sword of might
Mage Lv1 high magic- Dispel scroll

Core:
10x archers musician
5x reavers, bows
30x spearmen full command, Banner of eternal flame

Special:
25x Phoenix Guard- Razor standard

Rare:
2x RBTs
2x Great eagles
Frost Phoenix

taldarinzphoenix
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:55 pm

Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#4 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I asked the skaven player to bring the same list again. I am going to try to make the following modification:

Archmage of shadow Lv4, Dispel scroll

Noble BSB, Banner of the world dragon and Halberd
Noble, Dragon armor, Halberd, Obsidian Amulet

Core: 5x reavers, Bows
41 spearmen full command, banner of eternal flame

24x phoenix guard
5x swordmasters

2x RBTs
2x Great eagles
1x frost phoenix.

Ill can put the archmage and banner of the dragon in with the spearmen, then ill put the other noble with the obsidian amulet in with the phoenix guard, giving both my big units a 2+ Vs the warp lightning cannon and Scorch/plague.

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:15 am
I have used some minor variations, but the one i used in the last game was this:
It's a decent list that should do well against most enemies. It relies on Infantry though and Skaven are really good at killing Infantry. They're just a bad match-up for the list. That said, I feel High Magic would serve it better than Shadow here. The 3+ Ward from Shield of Saphery would really help protect the Phoenix Guard. Fiery Convocation becomes a must-dispel, if that goes off on his main block it will wreak havoc. Not only that, it's Remains in Play so might well tempt the Skaven to burn Power Dice dispelling it in their phase.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:25 am
I asked the skaven player to bring the same list again. I am going to try to make the following modification:
The reasoning makes sense, I just fear that when that Spear unit contacts the enemy, the lightly protected characters are going to die. Worth trying though I guess. Do you have any other models you might use to change things up further?

taldarinzphoenix
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#6 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I own about 6000 points of H elves, i dont own any dragons, Sisters of averlorn, or shadow warriors, but I have a solid collection of everything else, what would you recommend?

SpellArcher
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

Something like this perhaps?


Archmage, High Lvl 4, 4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury

BSB, World Dragon, B/Steed, Lance, D/Armour, Shield
Noble, B/Steed, D/Armr, Ogre Blade, E/Shield, Luckstone

13 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Reavers, Spears and Bows
5 Reavers, Spears

23 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame

4 RBT

taldarinzphoenix
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#8 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ok i have all the models except a mounted bsb but i have a silverhelm standard bearer I can proxy. I forgot about lichbone pendant! Thats better than a 2nd noble on points.

I have little experience taking khaines ring on an actual mage, how do you like to use it? 1 die it to start off the magic phase? 1-2 dice it after they're out of dispel dice? I assume the mage carrying it does not select the soul quench spell too

I fear 4 RBTs will fair poorly vs the stormvermin standard. Ive been bringing 2, and they do practically nothing by the time the doomwheel gets to them.
With this defensive setup, i guess save all my dice to try to stop the dreaded 13th?

Plague claw catapults will tear apart the silverhelms

I really like the setup on the Extra noble!

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
I have little experience taking khaines ring on an actual mage, how do you like to use it? 1 die it to start off the magic phase? 1-2 dice it after they're out of dispel dice? I assume the mage carrying it does not select the soul quench spell too
The Archmage has a 90% chance of generating Fiery Convocation, if he doesn't get it, take Arcane Unforging and target the Grey Seer. Apotheosis and Hand of Glory (can be used to speed a unit up) are good picks because he can cast them even while in combat to get that crucial +1 from Shield of Saphery. Walk between Worlds is also great. Soul Quench isn't stupid because you want to take wounds off the Abomination before combat, that's the obvious use for the Ring too.

If you have Convocation, cast it immediately on the Seer's unit if you have at least 5 dice, that should get it off, 6 if you have them. He should use his Dispel Scroll at once, he probably won't stop it with dice. Turn 2 you've a good chance of getting it past his defenses. He then has that nasty choice between allowing it to burn and using up Power Dice to dispel it in his phase.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
i guess save all my dice to try to stop the dreaded 13th?
He needs 6 dice for a decent shot at 13th, he may not even get those. If he does, he has a 26% chance of Irresistible Force. Nothing you can do about that but it won't kill the Archmage. He has maybe a 60% (?) chance of getting the spell off, if he does, scroll it because his total will be high and even 6 Dispel Dice probably won't stop it. Next time he casts it, yes try dispelling if you have 6 dice, though the RIP from Convocation and previous Miscasts might be cramping his style by then.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
I fear 4 RBTs will fair poorly vs the stormvermin standard. Ive been bringing 2, and they do practically nothing by the time the doomwheel gets to them
I would immediately target all of them at either the Abomination with massed shots or the Doomwheel with single bolts and continue to do so. There's a 50% chance the Storm Banner stops working at the start of your enemy's next turn, then another 50% it stops working before your second turn, already good odds. After this happens, 4 RBT begin to be very unpleasant. Consider deploying them close to your baseline (they'll probably still be in range immediately) and spread out with at least 6 inches (to prevent Panic tests) between each. It'll take the foe a long time to get to all of them.

In general, deploy your cavalry towards the wings then get it around his flanks. Reavers should both be Vanguarded 12" forward before Turn 1 and then head straight for his war machines. Target either the Abomination or Doomwheel with shooting and/or Fury of Khaine, then charge it with the Helms or possibly the Dragon Princes. If you can, then Overrun or Reform to get in position to threaten the Skaven flanks. The whole set up owes a lot to the theory and praxis of Seredain. His thread is huge but there's a lot of goodness in it:

www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm
Plague claw catapults will tear apart the silverhelms
These are Warpstone Weapons (Skaven book pg 47), have Magical Attacks and thus run into the 2+ Ward from World Dragon.

taldarinzphoenix
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#10 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Thank you for the wonderful breakdown, I did not realize plague claw was also a warpstone weapon!

I feel much more confident going into the combat, Ill post a short play by play after the match!

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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm
Thank you for the wonderful breakdown
You're welcome sir.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm
I feel much more confident going into the combat
No promises but hopefully the game should be more competitive.
taldarinzphoenix wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm
Ill post a short play by play after the match!
Please do!

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