First time playing HE, and Warhammer for that instance!

[Epically]

G'day all,

So, my cousin among with some friends are starting a Warhammer SoM campaign.
I haven't actually played before.

For the past couple days I've been reading the rules and discussing the game with my cousin. After recommendation from the worker at Games Workshop, I decided to go with HE for the campaign.

I'll be having my first game tomorrow vs Greenskins with a fairly seasoned player. We're having a 1200p game tomorrow.

This is my current loadout:

Core:
LSG
2x 15 units
360p

Lords:
Prince (General)
Armour of protection
2x sword of strength
Barded Steed
259p

Heroes:
2x Mage
Jewel of the dust
Silver wand
235p

Rare:
1x Repeater bolt thrower
100p

Special:
1 unit of 10 sword masters
150p

1 unit of 4 Silver Helms with equipped shields
92

1196p all up.

I'm going to place the Prince in the Silver helms, split the mages into each of the LSG units, then set up the rest as dictates.

Does this sound ok to you guys? I honestly have no idea. What are some tactics to use against greenskins?

Also, on, but off topic, the same cousin is continuously talking about how he is going to mop the floor with me using his ogre kingdoms when the campaign starts. He's been playing for well over 10 years. I'd really like to wipe that smirk off his face though. What are some tactics and good load outs vs ogres?

Thanks in advance.

[Adasi]

hi and welcome!

I dont have my army book on me atm but yo may want to check that Helms aren't a 5+min size unit. Even if not, its a very small unit that wont have much effect i'm afraid! Your pricely prince wont receive any "look out sir" rolls due to the small size!

Again, 10 Swordmasters is knid of small and you're more likely to not even have a supporting rank once you get into combat

As for your core, i'd reccomend combining into one unit! Many people will tell you that you've overspent on core and this is generally true. With HE, our priority is getting as much of that hard hitting Special choices in there! I'd personally use Spears instead and take as many as make up the Core minimum.

Your Prince. First, is illegal as you can't duplicate magic items. Second, i wouldn't use a prince in this points level. You can pretty much get the same effect from a Noble...and use the points to make the noble a BSB...that gives you re-rolls in a 12" bubble. It might not seem necessary for HE but it can save your good units! A Noble with a GW, HA, Shield, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm is a 3Attack, S5 fella with 3+ rerollable save

Magic...you've not said what levels or what lores you would take, but in this points level, a single Level 2 with a silver wand should offer you more than enough options! Remember we get an extra +1 to dispel for being bad ass elves!!

RBT's are by and large awful! Granted thats my opinion, but due to 8th rules changes, it doesn't have the 3 wounds described in the book, it has as many wounds as it does crew - 2! Which is 100pts for 2 wounds...those 100pts could by you 2 eagles which i guarantee will cause more mischeif! Eagles can redirect, have 3 T4 wounds a pieces, can fly (and fly-march) and you may want them to take out SpearChukkas, doom divers and redirect any big units of savage orc boys!

[dabber]

Various issues with the list. The Mage is illegal for two arcane items. The Silver Helms are too small to be legal.

From a utility perspective, there is no reason to field size 15 LSG. Archers will shoot better (more range) and fight just as well in close combat (7 wide) for lower cost. If you are not big enough to take advantage of their spear attacks, LSG are a waste. You also should drop 60 points of your core, to get down to the minimum, and spend points on better things.

Why do you want a Prince? With so few troops, generally more elite troops would be far superior to a Prince. Are you seriously model limited?
What are you giving him? "2x sword of strength" does not make sense, as I cannot tell what you mean. A High Elf fighting character effectively always takes a great weapon, because it is cheap, powerful, and has no real weakness (you still Always Strike First). Armour of Protection is not worth taking, since Armour of Destiny is strictly better. And a Prince on a horse would take Vambraces of Defense instead.

[Ictoagn]

I'm going to run down the list one at a time and say what I think.

Prince: I wouldn't take a lord at all at this points level, he's just too much of your army. Even if you do, you can't give him two magic weapons or the same weapon twice. Even if you go with a lord, a great weapon is a much better choice for a High Elf character due to always strikes first.
Mages: If you want to go magic heavy, this is a pretty good setup. That being said, 2 mages is a lot for this points level. It's pretty common to see one mage at level 2 with the Seerstaff. Metal is a wonderful lore for ignoring armour saves, and life keeps your troops alive, which is especially important in games this small.
Characters in general: Too many points. Over a third of your army is in three models. I would only run one or two, consisting of a mage and maybe a battle standard bearer.
Core: Sea guard can be used very effectively, but they aren't my style. Someone else can give better comments on them.
Sword Masters: These are pretty good, but a musician is very useful for the ability to reform. I don't think 10 is too few for this amount of points. I don't play it, but I take 7 at 1000 and 14 at 1500. I will say this, though. They are very fragile and will die a lot, especially since they'll be the first thing your enemy shoots. Your enemy has good reason to fear them, and they will do very well in combat, even if a lot of them don't make it.
Silver Helms: You actually need to take Silver Helms in units of 5 or larger. Don't expect them to kill a lot on their own, but if they hit the flank of a unit already in combat, they can turn the combat in your favour. They're also nice for bringing down war machines and tying up (and usually eventually killing) archers.
Bolt Thrower: Most people don't like the bolt thrower, but it really depends on how it's used. It's suboptimal against lighter infantry, yes. But a high elf army already as a lot of low-strength attacks. Use the big bolt against heavy infantry, cavalry, and monsters.

[Epically]

Thank you for your replies.

In regards to the mage having two arcane items, that's not the case, it's one having the silver wand, one having the jewel of the dust.

I'm deeply confused about the illegal to have two magic weapon part. In the rule book, general rule book that is, it says,
"Paired weapons
Paired weapons are magic weapons that are bought as a pair. In addition to their other effects, paired weapons grant the bearer the extra attack special option."

Also, not quite up to scratch with the acronyms yet lol, so what is HA, and BSB stand for?

[Ictoagn]

Now I see where the confusion with the weapons is. You can't take two of any magic weapon and call it paired, it has to say it's a paired weapon. Fencing Blades, for example, say that they're a pair.

As for acronyms, BSB means battle standard bearer, an upgrade for a noble that provides a lot of benefits to all units within 12". Details are on page 107 of the main rulebook. HA generally means heavy armour.

[Epically]

Ahh ok. Thank you for the advice. I'll change those mistakes up.

[wisetiger7]

-deleted

[dabber]

Lots of bad stuff in that last post, in my opinion. And some flat out wrong.
The wrong stuff:
* Lifebloom cannot bring models back from the dead; it can only heal multi-wound models. Unlike the Regrowth spell.
* Dragon armour is just a 5+ armour save, and cannot stack with Armour of Destiny. His total armour save is 3+ in combat, 2+ outside combat.
* Mage in 6x2 Swordmasters means you don't have 19 attacks.
* Army is illegal for being WAY over the 25% hero limit.

The bad stuff:
Shield of Thorns is not a unit killer. Strength 3 limits it massively, and the timing is not consistent.
If taking a Noble, make him a BSB. Totally worth the low cost.
Swordmasters should go 7 wide or wider. 2 ranks of 6 may have symmetry, but has no tactical value. Putting a Mage in Swordmasters is a terrible idea, as that removes one of your best fighting guys from attacking. Leave Mages in the spears or archers.
Do not expect 10 archers to "rain down" on anything, except your own hopes. Their expected damage output is small. If not taking Dwellers, the ranged damage output of this army is very small.

[wisetiger7]

Thanks dabber for pointing out the flaws in my (previously thought) awesome plan
I do have one questions though... is it not possible to put your mage in the back rank of the swordmaster (or any unit for that matter)? If so, then that would protect the mage as well as let all possible attack be available.

Thanks again!

[dabber]

The only way to get a character out of the front rank is to fill the front rank with command models and other characters. Anytime a normal model is in a front rank, a character in a back rank must replace him. See the main rulebook FAQ.

Well, there is another temporary one - get your opponent to be stupid and issue a challenge. You decline, Mage hides in back for that combat phase. But you shouldn't assume your opponents are all dumb or playing WoC (who must challenge).

[Ictoagn]

Wisetiger's Army:

A Noble that isn't a BSB? Blasphemy! Dabber is correct on armour not stacking, but I'm not sure where he's getting the better save outsid3 combat.
472 points of heroes, but the max at this points level is 300.
Generally strength 4 is common enough that light armour on it's own (for the archers) won't do much.
+1 attack on the Sword Master champion is not worth losing S5, and certainly not worth the cost.
Musicians are the most useful command upgrade. You will be outmaneuvered at some point. Maybe not every game, but it will happen. Then one swift reform can win you the game.
Like dabber said, 10 archers won't do a lot. Unlike dabber implied, 10 archers are useful. They can whittle down or cause panic tests in flankers, as well as the highly underrated archer flank charge. They're WS4 I5 ASF. Not the best, but I've seen them turn the tide of more than one combat.
Regrowth is a wonderful spell for low-point high elves, but a life mage shouldn't be trying to deal damage. Keeping your elves alive with regeneration and +2T is much more important.
No, mages can't go in the back rank of any units. All characters have to be in the front, even going so far as to displace command models. That's part of why the only characters that should be in Sword Master units are nobles and princes.

Edit for dabber's most recent post: I'm pretty sure characters displace command models. So only other characters can kick him out of the front rank.

[wisetiger7]

The only way to get a character out of the front rank is to fill the front rank with command models and other characters. Anytime a normal model is in a front rank, a character in a back rank must replace him. See the main rulebook FAQ.

Well, there is another temporary one - get your opponent to be stupid and issue a challenge. You decline, Mage hides in back for that combat phase. But you shouldn't assume your opponents are all dumb or playing WoC (who must challenge).

This is wrong. If you look at the margin on page 100 of the rulebook states clearly that you do NOT have to put ANY character in the front. I know I’m a noob, but I’m pretty sure that this RAW is pretty clear.

"I Think I’ll Sit This One Out, Chaps."
A character is under no obligation to muscle his way forward into the fight, so don’t feel you have to put him in harm’s way if you don’t want to. Wizards are almost always better off staying out of a close quarters scrum if they can manage it, and even tooled-up combat specialists might want to opt for discretion if they’ve already lost a lot of Wounds. Just remember that if the unit breaks from combat, any characters in it will suffer the same fate, and a character’s striking power might prevent the unit from breaking in the first place.

Thus the swordmasters would not be hampered with a mage in their unit.

Edit: Checked the FAQ and there's nothing to say anything different.

[Jedra]

Wise... you need to read what that is referring to. That is a qualification of the "Make Way!" rule, that allows you to take a character and move them to be in contact with a unit that charges you. It is saying you don't HAVE to move your character to the charged flank.

In normal circumstances, you do have to place your characters in the front. I don't have the book to hand so I can't check where but if no one else references it in the next few days I will find it.

edit:

It was bugging me so I got the book and looked it up. Page 97 - its pretty clear.

This is, for the record, also the same page saying you can (actually it looks like you MUST from what it says) have command in the front rank over characters.

[wisetiger7]

Jedra you are absolutely right, thanks for clearing that up for me!

[Ictoagn]

You are also correct on command displacing characters. This was a change from 7th I never noticed.

[Epically]

So what were some tactics against greenskins? Recommended units against them in general?

[Adasi]

@Wisetiger7

Mate, dont post item points cost on forums - you'll get the forum fellas in trouble with GW's legal team! Edit your post please!

[Malossar]

Looking for clarification here:

A BSB still cannot be the army's general correct? If that's the case then wouldn't he need another character?

Which at this low points cost wouldn't be that efficient...

[Ictoagn]

No, a BSB cannot be the general. A mage, however, can. At 1200, 2 heroes isn't all that much.

[Malossar]

Here's how i would load out your character selections:

Noble - 143pts.
- BSB (battle standard bearer), GW (great weapon), Armor of Caledor

**Makes him a pretty solid charcter allowing some awesome psychology benefits as well as some much need high str attacks. Pretty durable with the armor save as well...

Mage - 155 (fire)
- Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll

** At this low points game, i feel two things are important, magical survival, and ranged dominance. Since you're playing Orcs and Goblins, a lvl 4 goblin shaman is not entirely out of the question, he can throw some really nasty spells at you which is why i added the dispel scroll. The lvl 2 is a nice upgrade for adding in the extra spell, AND giving you an additional +1, also being a high elf grants you another +1, helping to bridge that gap if he does bring the lvl 4. The lore is really your preference i chose fire because it has some nice spells to hurt him at range.

As for the rest of the list:

30x Spearelves - 300pts.
-FC (full command), Gleaming Pennat ( great banner since your general already is on the lower side ( for an elf) of leadership.

This gives you exactly 602 pts to spend on special and rare, i don't think the RBT is worth the 100pts... So i'd go with an eagle, two if you have them.

I don't know what elites are avialable to you.. but i usually run Sword masters against orcs and goblins, extra choppiness can never hurt!!

14x Swordmasters - 222pts.
-Bladelord

14x Sword Masters - 222pts.
-Blade Lord

Eagle

this gives you 108 points left to spend. You could add back your RBT, OR, add a unit of 5 Ellyrion Reavers, one of my favourite units.


Just some thoughts good luck in the game!

[commander]

Ok guys, we are deviating from the point.

@Epically:

Tactics with greenskins, my opinion:

Swordmasters are prehaps the most useful unit in the list to deal with the greenies. You should kill about 11-12 models (toughness 3 Armor save 5+) a turn. But pick your targets, don't charge into a 100 strong block of night gobos, and they will lose combat, but through steadfast, and a war of attrition, wipe you out. What i would do is come from the over-whelming force style i play. Don't spend one unit and each of your enemies, as the greenskins should have more, instead concentrate on one flank, but keep him preoccupied on the other (with a unit he should deal with soon, eagles, reavers, pretty much anything he can't leave in his back lines causing havoc. And as High elves are awesome fighters, you should have dealt with one flank in turn 3/4. Magic is also your friend, if i wasn't verusing orcs and gobos, i would take a lv 3, with silver wand, and lore of life. But, its under concenus that you need boots on the table. Although, i've had rather good luck with taking a lv 3 with silver wand @ 1000pts. Simply because, with life, you NEED at least 4 spells to be useful, and i get this. Toughness 7 regen 4+ swordmasters are scary, for anyone.

Against ogres, i just read something about it... But can't find it. Hmm, there is something on... actually, found it! I just replied on it! Heres the link:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=36344

Should give some tips on that.

If you got any other questions, let us know!

[Epically]

Hey guys. As an update, had my first two games yesterday.

Greenskins. Well, I got completely dominated. He had a complete goblin army, no orcs. Hidden fanatics everywhere, had some better spells than me, a million more units than me, and overall just rolled a shit tonne better. He went first and took out my General and Silver helms in two direct hits from his doom slingers, or doom tossers or whatever they're called. Definitely learned a lot from that game though. Mainly to get into the fight as quickly as possible.

Second game, was against a different player playing Tomb Kings. This time, it was complete domination, but for me!

All thanks to my sword masters. Those dudes are rough as hell! I never even got to use another unit! Not to mention I rolled a bit better on magic to get flames of the phoenix, which I cast first turn on his tomb guards, which worked out quite well.

He charged them with a unit of his chariots, none of mine died and I killed all his. Then I got a ridiculous charge off 17inches away lol, killed all them, then on to the next lot, and the next lot lol. He just conceded as I took out 3 or 4 of his units with a single unit of 10 SM one go.

All in all, I really like this game. I'm looking forward to trying some new load outs with different points, tactics, and eventually other armies, but for now more than happy with HE.

[Epically]

Oh also, I got told that archers can't shoot over your own units? Is this true? Do they need direct LOS?

[FateWeaver]

Rule book, page 39- 'the shooting model must be able to trace a line of sight to the target' The definition of LOS can be found on page 10 'for one model to have line of sight to another, he must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body'. Unless I've missed something, there is no rule that says that you can't shoot through your own units, as long as you have LOS- however getting LOS through another unit is most likely impossible, ( unless you were firing under a flyer). Hope this helps.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Ranked infantry can block LOS, but skirmishers can't as far as I know.

[AiEthimar]

The rule of LoS has been the topic of much consternation all over the Warhammer world. In actuallity, you can probably trace LoS from a model's viewpoint fairly easily even through one of your own units. That being said, because you will be shooting through your own unit- in this case- it might be a carryover from 6th and 7th editions but at the local tournaments I attend we simply call it a "Hard Cover" modifier and make it +2 to hit as fluffwise your troops are trying desperately not to hit their own comrades while at the same time attempting to accurately gauge (sp) where your enemy is.

AE

P.S. Well done on the TK win. SM are brutal for sure, but they will be killed rather easily from range or magic and you got lucky that a TK chariot charge didn't kill a single SM through impact hits. As for the greenskins; agreed the doomdiver is a super pain, and with the high cost of our models compared to their virtual no cost, I'll be it was rough. However, you always learn more from defeat; keep that in mind it has turned many of my games from utter disasters to incredible experiences

[Adasi]

not to detract from your victory, but are you sure you charged the SM correctly? As in...you destroy one unit...overrun into the next unit, which gets resolved next combat phase (unless the unit you run inot is already locked in an unresolved combat)...?

I just find it a bit OP that 10 SM (whilst very good) could destroy and entire army singlehandedly...

Also, even though we have SoA (ASF) your opponent DID roll for impact hits first right? I'm not sure about the strength but S5 impact hits is (pretty much) autokilling D6 of your SM?!

[Epically]

To be honest, it never got done. The impact hits. The other player was newish as well and the guy watching forgot all about it. We realised at the end of the game. He only had three charriots though. When my 10 SM charged the first time, I encountered 25 skeletons, and did 20 wounds. Because I was up by like 17 points in combat res, against an unbreakable unit, I got told it goes back into wounds, which killed the other 5 skeletons. All of his other units where right next to each other, so next I overran into his tomb guard and TK, which was a unit of 20 plus the TK. However, on my first turn (I went second) I cast flames of the phoenix on them, which by the time I overran into them had dropped them to 7 tomb guard. SM killed the remainder, but TK still alive.
On the other side, we rolled my next attack, where my LSG destoryed another of his units. He had like 6 models left, and het just called it, considering another two units of mine were charging also.

[commander]

I just find it a bit OP that 10 SM (whilst very good) could destroy and entire army singlehandedly...

Oh no no. Swordmasters, once in combat, masscre things.

Lets say a similar thing happened to me once.

I was playing vampires. The mage and spearman were caught in combat with an endless about of zombies, so my swordmasters ran into some skeletons, killed 14(ish) lost 0-2, won on combat res, overran into another skeleton combat, killed them in one turn, then proceed to kill the vampire. Amazing it was.

Another time, 5 swordmasters managed to kill a 20 strong block of seleton spears, then the champion charged a mage, and only though AMAZING rolling on their part, did it survive, and killed me.

Swordmasters = killy.