How to deal with Skaven as High elves

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taldarinzphoenix
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How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#1 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ive played 3 games against a skaven player, and all three games, ive felt like i had lost the game before my turn 2.

Between the stormvermin storm banner, some combination of the plague claw catapult, warp lightning cannon, doomwheel, and hellpit abomination, along side the scorch spell, plague spell or dreaded 13th spell, about 800 pts of my army is gone before i take my turn 2.

The warmachines are very difficult to deal with with the storm banner ruining my eagles and my frost phoenix for the first turn or 2.

Im going to bring the banner of the world dragon next game to save against scorch… and I want to use shadow lore but im feeling like if I don't go life, I cant win
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Would you mind posting your list taldarinzphoenix? That would give us a good idea of the mechanics of this match-up.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#3 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I have used some minor variations, but the one i used in the last game was this:

Lord-
Archmage, lore of shadow book of Hoeth, Talisman of preservation
(I rolled wither, enfeeble, occams and took melekoths)
Heros
Noble BSB Shield of merwyrm and sword of might
Mage Lv1 high magic- Dispel scroll

Core:
10x archers musician
5x reavers, bows
30x spearmen full command, Banner of eternal flame

Special:
25x Phoenix Guard- Razor standard

Rare:
2x RBTs
2x Great eagles
Frost Phoenix
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#4 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I asked the skaven player to bring the same list again. I am going to try to make the following modification:

Archmage of shadow Lv4, Dispel scroll

Noble BSB, Banner of the world dragon and Halberd
Noble, Dragon armor, Halberd, Obsidian Amulet

Core: 5x reavers, Bows
41 spearmen full command, banner of eternal flame

24x phoenix guard
5x swordmasters

2x RBTs
2x Great eagles
1x frost phoenix.

Ill can put the archmage and banner of the dragon in with the spearmen, then ill put the other noble with the obsidian amulet in with the phoenix guard, giving both my big units a 2+ Vs the warp lightning cannon and Scorch/plague.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:15 am I have used some minor variations, but the one i used in the last game was this:
It's a decent list that should do well against most enemies. It relies on Infantry though and Skaven are really good at killing Infantry. They're just a bad match-up for the list. That said, I feel High Magic would serve it better than Shadow here. The 3+ Ward from Shield of Saphery would really help protect the Phoenix Guard. Fiery Convocation becomes a must-dispel, if that goes off on his main block it will wreak havoc. Not only that, it's Remains in Play so might well tempt the Skaven to burn Power Dice dispelling it in their phase.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:25 am I asked the skaven player to bring the same list again. I am going to try to make the following modification:
The reasoning makes sense, I just fear that when that Spear unit contacts the enemy, the lightly protected characters are going to die. Worth trying though I guess. Do you have any other models you might use to change things up further?
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#6 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I own about 6000 points of H elves, i dont own any dragons, Sisters of averlorn, or shadow warriors, but I have a solid collection of everything else, what would you recommend?
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

Something like this perhaps?


Archmage, High Lvl 4, 4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury

BSB, World Dragon, B/Steed, Lance, D/Armour, Shield
Noble, B/Steed, D/Armr, Ogre Blade, E/Shield, Luckstone

13 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Reavers, Spears and Bows
5 Reavers, Spears

23 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame

4 RBT
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#8 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ok i have all the models except a mounted bsb but i have a silverhelm standard bearer I can proxy. I forgot about lichbone pendant! Thats better than a 2nd noble on points.

I have little experience taking khaines ring on an actual mage, how do you like to use it? 1 die it to start off the magic phase? 1-2 dice it after they're out of dispel dice? I assume the mage carrying it does not select the soul quench spell too

I fear 4 RBTs will fair poorly vs the stormvermin standard. Ive been bringing 2, and they do practically nothing by the time the doomwheel gets to them.
With this defensive setup, i guess save all my dice to try to stop the dreaded 13th?

Plague claw catapults will tear apart the silverhelms

I really like the setup on the Extra noble!
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm I have little experience taking khaines ring on an actual mage, how do you like to use it? 1 die it to start off the magic phase? 1-2 dice it after they're out of dispel dice? I assume the mage carrying it does not select the soul quench spell too
The Archmage has a 90% chance of generating Fiery Convocation, if he doesn't get it, take Arcane Unforging and target the Grey Seer. Apotheosis and Hand of Glory (can be used to speed a unit up) are good picks because he can cast them even while in combat to get that crucial +1 from Shield of Saphery. Walk between Worlds is also great. Soul Quench isn't stupid because you want to take wounds off the Abomination before combat, that's the obvious use for the Ring too.

If you have Convocation, cast it immediately on the Seer's unit if you have at least 5 dice, that should get it off, 6 if you have them. He should use his Dispel Scroll at once, he probably won't stop it with dice. Turn 2 you've a good chance of getting it past his defenses. He then has that nasty choice between allowing it to burn and using up Power Dice to dispel it in his phase.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm i guess save all my dice to try to stop the dreaded 13th?
He needs 6 dice for a decent shot at 13th, he may not even get those. If he does, he has a 26% chance of Irresistible Force. Nothing you can do about that but it won't kill the Archmage. He has maybe a 60% (?) chance of getting the spell off, if he does, scroll it because his total will be high and even 6 Dispel Dice probably won't stop it. Next time he casts it, yes try dispelling if you have 6 dice, though the RIP from Convocation and previous Miscasts might be cramping his style by then.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm I fear 4 RBTs will fair poorly vs the stormvermin standard. Ive been bringing 2, and they do practically nothing by the time the doomwheel gets to them
I would immediately target all of them at either the Abomination with massed shots or the Doomwheel with single bolts and continue to do so. There's a 50% chance the Storm Banner stops working at the start of your enemy's next turn, then another 50% it stops working before your second turn, already good odds. After this happens, 4 RBT begin to be very unpleasant. Consider deploying them close to your baseline (they'll probably still be in range immediately) and spread out with at least 6 inches (to prevent Panic tests) between each. It'll take the foe a long time to get to all of them.

In general, deploy your cavalry towards the wings then get it around his flanks. Reavers should both be Vanguarded 12" forward before Turn 1 and then head straight for his war machines. Target either the Abomination or Doomwheel with shooting and/or Fury of Khaine, then charge it with the Helms or possibly the Dragon Princes. If you can, then Overrun or Reform to get in position to threaten the Skaven flanks. The whole set up owes a lot to the theory and praxis of Seredain. His thread is huge but there's a lot of goodness in it:

www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 pm Plague claw catapults will tear apart the silverhelms
These are Warpstone Weapons (Skaven book pg 47), have Magical Attacks and thus run into the 2+ Ward from World Dragon.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#10 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Thank you for the wonderful breakdown, I did not realize plague claw was also a warpstone weapon!

I feel much more confident going into the combat, Ill post a short play by play after the match!
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm Thank you for the wonderful breakdown
You're welcome sir.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm I feel much more confident going into the combat
No promises but hopefully the game should be more competitive.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:31 pm Ill post a short play by play after the match!
Please do!
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#12 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Ok i played the game with a variation of the list we discussed
what I ended up bringing was this:

i brought an Archmage, shadow magic Lvl 4, 2+ crown of attrazar, book of hoeth (i figured id try to pit of shades the bell off the table)
mage with high magic lv1 dispel scroll, ring of khaine

BSB, World Dragon, B/Steed, Lance, D/Armour, Shield
Noble, B/Steed, D/Armr, might blade, E/Shield, Luckstone

13 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Reavers, Spears and Bows
5 Reavers, Spears

25 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, banner of eternal flame

2 RBTs
frost phoenix

Turn 1: skaven player goes first, pushes forward with stormvermin horde with a bell, plague monk horde with plague furnace, doomwheel in his left flank and abomination down the middle. 1 plague claw catapult.
- magic phase: rolls an 11, rings the bell and it goes forward 3" or so, ends up trying to cast howling warpgale, which i stopped, scorch which i stopped, then 6 dice the 13th on a miscast, and killed 15 phoenix guard.
shooting, shoots plague claw catapult at my silver helms, killed 2, nothing else really did anything

my turn 1: my opponent acitvates the storm banner. i brought my cavalry up the sides, and backed up a bit with the Phoenix and phoenix guard (couldnt get a charge and wanted to make a charge unlikely for the abomination, i think i was like 16" away)
my magic phase: rolled an 8 (5/3) 1 die khaines ring, and get it, 1 die melekoths miasma (with book of hoeth) it succeeds. he lets both through. stormvermin unit loses 2 initiative. Pit of shades cast on 6 dice, no miscast, he scrolls it. f
shooting: shot all my bolts at the plague furnace to try to kill the plague priest, (12 shots) it was my best target at the time, ends up doing no wounds.

opponent turn 2: the storm banner continues. abomination gets a ridiculous 16" charge into my frostheart. he surges up the middle more with plague and storm hordes. the bell rings the scorth result which i had to dispel with 1 die. doom wheel gets close to my RBTs.
opponent magic phase: he gets 8 dice to my 5. tries to cast warp gale, and i dispel. tries to scortch, miscasts, and kills a few phoenix guard, then eats 3 warpstone tokens and 6 diceds dreaded 13th and miscasts, killing the rest of my phoenix guard (12 of them i think were left), turning them into rats next to my phoenix) plague claw catapult shoots at silverhelms and kills 1 more. doomwheel kills a few reavers out of a reaver squad

my turn 2: the storm banner continues. reaver charges the plague claw catapult, the other reavers block the doomwheel form being able to move to my RBTs. my silverhelms charge the flank of the bell.
my magic phase: i got 7 dice (6/1) i 1 die cast melekoths at the plague furnace lowering iniative of plague monks by 2. it goes through, i then 6 dice tried to cast pit of shades , and fish for a miscast with the book of hoeth, got my pit of shades, and it scattered 6'' off the unit. the helms do some damage to the unit, but there were like 50 of them and they were ubreakable, they got to combat reform, and did, now are facing the silverhelms

his turn 3: the stormbanner stops, his doomwheel killed my reavers on that side, my reavers ended up killing the plague claw catapult. my phoenix ended up killing the abomination, it made 3 rat swarms, and the phoenix got charged by the 12 srats created earlier by dreaded 13th. my mage was all alone now, becasuse his unit was wiped out, opponent rolled lowish on winds, maybe a 5 to my 3, and 5 dice dreaded 13th on my lv4 mage, which i had to use my discpel scroll on.
the rats ended up not doing much to the silverhelms, the silverhelms killed myabe 6 rats, but ultimately there was still maybe 35 left after all the miscasts. plague rats killed my RBTs, my phoenix lost his last wound.

my turn 3: i cast wither on the rats, but he dispelled it, i enfeebling foe'd them and got a 1, which went off. not much else happened, killed more rats, lost a silver helm, they were stil there and this was the only unit i had, minus the reavers that were comign to try to flank. his turn 4: doom wheel gets over to charge my silverhelms next turn, rats that killed my phoenix go over to also flank my silverhelms.

his turn 4: he gets 13th off again against my archmage, which i didnt have dice to dispel, kiilling him. the plague monks, (which i did manage to shoot and kill the plague priest earlier, i forgot to mention that) reform and start after the silverhelms also. at this point, with the archmage gone, and 2 unbreakable hoardes, i called the game.


Still lost pretty brutally, he almost tabled, me, i managed to kill:
1 flamethrower rat detachment
plague claw catapult
abomination
the plague priest
maybe 25-30 stormvermin, most of which was killed by his own miscasting. but there were still a good 25 left.
a unit of 30 skaven slaves. i dont think a single plague monk died.

dice really didnt go my way, especially during the magic phases. but i actually thought trying to pit of shades the bell was a better move than fiery convocating the unit bc they have the 5+ ward vs magic. I may have been wrong.

i will say the silverhelms did some good work. the phoenix guard were completely useless and did literally nothing. my lv1 high mage did more actual work than the lv4 of shadow. im very impressed with khaines ring, i'll probably start taking this on an archmage of high magic with book of hoeth and either a 6+ ward or golden crown of atrazzar. overall, skaven are very difficult to deal with!
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am Still lost pretty brutally
Your opponent's dice were horrific taldarinzphoenix.

1. IF's 13th first two turns, 1 in 16 chance.
2. Miscasts seemed not to hurt the Seer himself.
3. Storm Banner lasts two of your turns, 1 in 4 chance.
4. Catapult kills 3 Silver Helms, not scattering off, getting the 5+ to wound and passing the 2+ Ward.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am i actually thought trying to pit of shades the bell was a better move than fiery convocating the unit bc they have the 5+ ward vs magic.
Shadow isn't stupid but I still feel High Magic would have served you better here. Convocation doesn't scatter and still kills almost half the unit immediately, as well as potentially wounding any characters present. It's a spell you need to see used to get how strong it is, destroyed my Plaguebearers (and they are tough) in a recent battle.Then your opponent has to decide whether to use 5 power dice to dispel in his turn. HIgh also has a good Magic Missile to wound the Abomination before it sees combat. Not to mention the movement spells.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am i dont think a single plague monk died.
I know this is easier said than done but your first priority has to be killing the Rares, then you can outmaneouvre him. Only target the monk block if things are going great elsewhere near the end of the game. 4 RBT instead of 2 would help with that. The Frostheart is the stronger all-comers pick but vs the Storm Banner not so much. Dragon Princes could have acted freely at once.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:56 am the phoenix guard were completely useless and did literally nothing.
Phoenix Guard with a High Magic Archmage (for that 3+ Ward) are one of the strongest units in the game, most armies really struggle to deal with them, so they're a great all-comers pick. They have very few hard counters, unfortunately the hardest is Dreaded 13th. Alternatives include the Star Dragon and an almost pure cavalry list, both of which can be very effective against Skaven.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#14 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

This game admittedly went much better than the first because I did manage to kill a few things, but you are correct in that I felt oppressed by his dice, but thats fantasy. he rolled a result of a 7 on 2 of the 3 miscasts, which only took out 7-8 rats per miscast.

I dont love trying to very specifically tailor a list vs a single opponent, it kindof feels cheesy if you pull it off, which is why i tend to prefer all comers lists, but i think that your suggestions are pretty good even for all comers.

I just need more games under my belt. I will definitely go for a lv4 high mage next game, I got some good use out of the book of Hoeth too, I think I passed 2 casting and 2 dispelling attempts in the game because of the reroll, and my crown of atrazzar went unused.

Do you think this Archmage is a viable setup?( Phoenix guard are my preferred bunker for characters) : Lv4 high magic, Book of Hoeth, ring of Khaine, Golden Crown (can be swapped for the talisman of protection, that might be better)
(I like the idea of being able to combo the ring of Khaine with book of Hoeth for a 1 die cast). I always have at least MR(1) in the unit, usually from a bsb with obsidian trinket)

Thanks for the help and advice! I will get these pesky rats! My opponent wants me to play alarielle/White lion hoarde for our next game… hopefully inwont be blasted by 13th 😂
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#15 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:52 pm I dont love trying to very specifically tailor a list vs a single opponent, it kindof feels cheesy if you pull it off, which is why i tend to prefer all comers lists, but i think that your suggestions are pretty good even for all comers.
Thanks. I agree in general but priority number one here is beating Skaven I suggest. Then you can extrapolate from there.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:52 pm Lv4 high magic, Book of Hoeth, ring of Khaine, Golden Crown (can be swapped for the talisman of protection, that might be better)
The problem with this guy is he is in a combat unit. If they engage the enemy, he's at much more risk than if he started with a 4+ Ward. He could go Book of Hoeth, 4+ Ward. Then he foregoes the Dispel Scroll though. A successful casting of Dreaded 13th will probably get past 6 dispel dice plus Book as he's already on a 25+, whilst a Scroll will stop it. He has to get lucky to IF and exceedingly lucky to IF twice in a row.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:52 pm Thanks for the help and advice! I will get these pesky rats! My opponent wants me to play alarielle/White lion hoarde for our next game… hopefully inwont be blasted by 13th
You're welcome. Yes, I'm not sure that unit will do any better than the PG but who knows?
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#16 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I finally beat the Skaven! granted luck went my way a bit more this game, but I will take it. we played a 2500 point game, and my list was the follows:

Lords:
Alarielle the radiant, Life magic

Heros:
Life mage Lv2, dispel Scroll, ring of khaine (but i forgot i had it and didn't use it)
Noble BSB, banner of averlorn, shield heavy armor
Caradryan on Ashtari

Core:
13 Silver helms, full command
5x Ellyrian Reavers with bows, musician
5x Ellyrian Reavers with bows, musician
10x archers, musician

Special:
40x White lions, full command, banner of the world dragon

Rare:
Eagle claw bolt thrower
Eagle Claw Bold thrower
Great Eagle

his list was something along the lines of
hoard of 50ish plague rats with plague furnace, plague priest
hoard of 50ish storm vermin with screaming bell, grey seer
warlock engineer lv2 with warp lightning condenser
2 units of plague cencer bearers
1 units of 5 jezzails
3-4 units of clan rats, maybe 20 rats each
2 plaguewind globadiers
Warp lightning cannon
hellpit abomination
2x Doomwheels

Very brief recap of how the game went:

the bell and the furnace dropped in the center of the board, and evrything else of his went on the flanks.

i deployed my Silverhelms opposite the plague furnace, my white lions opposite the bell, my archers opposite the jezzails, I put Caradryan/ashtari in the middle bc I wasnt sure where the abomination was going, caradryan was the only thing with flaming attacks. 1 reaver on opposite sides, and eagle on my right flank.

I got the first turn, i got throne of vines and +4 toughness on my white lions, moved up with them. moved up with silver helms, the storm banner kept my eagle and phoenix way in the back. the RBTs didnt do anything. i dropped my reavers right infront of his doomwheel and abomination on my right flank.

his first turn, he scortched the silverhelms, and shot with jezzails, i lost 3 of them. he dreaded 13th'd the white lions and he rolled 4,4,5,6 and i lost 19!!! white lions. it was a miscast so i couldnt scroll it, but he lost 3 wizard levels, lost all his spells except scorch. abom and doomwheel ruined my reavers and overran forward.

turn 2, i charged silverhelms into the plague furnace and my phoenix into the abomination. I got flesh to stone and regrowth up this turn, got 4 lions back. my archers killed 4 jezzails, Bolt throwers did nothing. silverhelms did some work, and held with maybe 8 models left. Caradryan killed the abomination before it even got to swing, (hit and wounded, 3 flaming attacks, ashtari followed up with 3 wounds, killing it). i reformed to face the doomwheel, and i put my eagle infront of the doomwheel to essentially block it from going at the flank of my lions.

his turn 2, something killed 16 of my archers, might have been the warp lightning cannon or scortch, i forget, they didnt panic. he charged the lions with the bell, charged the phoenix with the doomwheel. i think plague cencers went into my lions this turn as well. the silverhelms killed some rats, the rats killed some silverhelms, and i believe that the helms were destroyed this turn. there were clanrats moving around to get flank charges for next turn. 'something funny that happened, i had 1 single reaver that panic'd and fled from a doomwheel, it ran through a fence, a house, another fence and 2 enemy units, and didnt didnt die, and he was RIGHT infront of the plague rat unit, which i couldnt have planned more perfectly.

my turn 3 i got flesh to stone and cast dwellers on plague rats, which was dispelled by a scroll. allarielle rolled a 6 to wound the bell! heroic killing blow....... was foiled by the ward save. the bell stayed. lions killed rats, rats killed like 2-3 lions, not that bad overall but my lions didnt actually win this combat, but held. caradryan put some hurt on the doomwheel with ashtari, i thnk i didnt kill it until his turn 3, but caradryan and ashtari were unhurt bc of lore attribute of life, and allarielles passive thing.

his turn 3, no magic happened, doomwheel killed the rest of my archers, caradryan killed the other doomwheel, and lions were charged in the other flank by clanrats. i do believe they were doing ok at this point but i only have like 6 or 7 lions left. the reaver was killed by something, im not sure.

my turn 4, he dispelled my attempt at regrowth, but i got flesh to stone again. i killed his BSB in combat this round, caradryan charged the bells unit. this was a pretty good turn for me, the clanrats fled, i killed the cencer bearers, and there was only maybe 1 rank of vermin left. i reformed after wnning combat to go 3x3 to protect my characters from attacks, and an immenant plague furnace charge in the flank (by reforming it made the charge impossible) my RBTs killed the last doomwheel. i got a dwellers off on the plague rats, taking a big chunk of that unit, i think 16 rats died.

his turn 4, we continued fighting, but the bell is practically impossible to kill, and i killed enough stormvermin to take caradryan out of that combat, and he was charged in the flank by clanrats, holding him up for another turn. i dont think any magic was successful, i used my scroll on a scortch i think. caradryan made the clanrats flee

my turn 5, not much happened, caradryan charged the bell, i believe that i had 3 white lions at this point. but i still couldnt get the bell down, it had a couple wounds left.

his turn 5, he did the little flame attack thing on my unit, i didnt have flesh to stone up this turn, and all the lions were wiped out. i still didnt kill the bell

my turn 6, it was a quick turn, i had 3 characters fighting the bell and caradryan in the flank. the RBTs shot at plague rats, killed a few more. ii got flesh to stone off, and killed the bell.

his turn 6, he charged my unit, and did a couple wounds, but none of my characters died, i lost combat by a bit, but made the roll to hold. After calculating points, I had caradryan on ashtari, alarriele, my BSB and my lv2 mage, and 2 RBTs remaining, and he had 1 unit of Plague cencer bearers, 2 units of clan rats, the plague furncace and its unit, as well as the WLC left. I believe i just barely won on points.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#17 Post by Sturen »

Wow, I don’t remember 8th edition being so vicious, dozens of models dying every phase! Definitely feels like despite the huge swings (19 lions from one spell!) it was a real nail biter that could have gone totally in your favour with just a few more armour saves on the white lions etc.

Feels like you played it well, but just so often at the mercy of a big magic phase.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#18 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

thats 8th edition for you! there was a round of combat where i lost 7 lions, and he lost maybe 13 rats. 8th was known for lots of death, and overpowered magic. dreaded 13th is one of the most annoying and overpowered spells in the edition depending on the matchup. Demons, warriors of chaos, Elves, we all dread the Curse of the Horned Rat.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#19 Post by DrSlam »

Well done taldarinzphoenix, I've been following your thread with interest though didn't post before as I haven't played against Skaven before.

My read is you used redirectors well? And life magic was effective here at keeping units and characters alive, and dwelling enemy units too. I think Dwellers is another way to try to get rid of the screaming bell, though it depends on the luck of your dice rolls to get the spell off, of course. And if you use this tactic you have to sit back with your combat units because you can't dwellers an enemy unit that is in combat. Of course if you have shooting this is A OK cause it means you kill more things before they reach your combat units.

One query - did you find the 2 bolt throwers worth it? I've found 2 don't do much and 3 are the minimum to threaten an enemy. Having at least 3 can also tempt the enemy to send some forces against them, because they are more threatening - think of them as a 'stationary redirector', or more accurately, bait... anything that spreads out enemy forces allows you to concentrate your combat units better against your target enemy units, which I think is how HEs win.

And finally, I also forgot about khaine's ring of fury when I brought it for the first time, you're not alone there. I find its short range frustrating but it casts easily and gives a handy ward save so it's probably worth it.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

Congrats on getting the win! Sounds like progress to me :)

One thing to note is that you should make sure you and your opponent know all the rules regarding Skaven. They have a lot of very specific ones. For instance, your opponent seems to be missing that the Storm Banner affects his shooting as much as yours. At least, in the errata it was changed to:

Code: Select all

Page 111 – Storm Banner.
Add “One use only”. Change the start of the third sentence to
“All shooting attacks that don’t use BS [...]”
Which means that his cannon and catapult need to roll for a 4+ just as much as any other war machine.

I must say I am surprised at how often your opponent manages to get dreaded 13th cast together with other spells. It's powerful, but it's also expensive to cast. As for how to deal with it, it's a tough one. Taking out the mage is an option. Remember that you can target the character on the bell directly (if I recall the rules correctly. He has a different footprint from the rest of his unit. Though he does get a good save I think). I do think you should have been casting Dwellers below on the large units each of your turns. That spell is there to deal with hordes like this. Same with other big magic spells, like purple sun (though skaven have good initiative, so it's not as good against them), Pit of Shades (realistically, that should not scatter off the bell or furnace model, except on a roll of 6 on the D6, except with the worst luck in the direction it scatters), or fiery convocation.

So personally, with a life list I would 6-dice (or however many dice I had available that turn) dwellers at first the bell and then the furnace. You only need to succeed once, and that threat is gone pretty much. Same with Fiery convocation. If you get that off, your opponent loses a large chunk of the unit pushing the bell, and he faces the decision about what to do next turn, dispell it or lose more.

Of course, perhaps the most brutal option against both Bell and Furnace is the humble Spirit Leech. Since they don't have a LD value, you use 0 as value for this spell. Yes, I think they have a ward save (I'm thinking it's 4+), but with a LD of 8, even the worst roll gives you 3 wounds (before the ward) while the best gives you 13 wounds before the ward. And all that for a 7+ casting value. It's great for your lvl2 mage. Start the phase with that, on 2 dice if you have a bad phase or 4 if you have a good one and watch your opponent sweat as he wonders what to do. With a bit of decent rolling, that could be exit bell T1. For an average of 4 wounds (after all saves) it's definitely worth it.

A few other things to consider, I would personally drop the archers and bring another unit of Reavers (and drop the bows on them). That little shooting isn't going to do much against 50 strong units. However, you can keep both large units out of the game for a long time with 3 units of reavers (even more if you want to be cheesy and double flee with them...). Another thing you could consider is not bringing a single large unit of infantry, but rather multiple small ones. Yes, a unit of 10 lions will die to dreaded 13th, but is it really worth it when you risk the miscast? I think I would go that direction. Bring a magic heavy list, and just try to nuke the big units while they are being held up by 3+ units of reavers while fighting smaller special HE units. Of course, since he brings a tough list, you could always try Teclis. This already gives you access to 2 scrolls, one of which has the chance of removing dreaded 13th from the game, which shuts down a lot of magic. And you could take something like Dwellers, Flame Cage, Final Transmutation, Banishment, Comet, and Spirit Leech.

Or bring a Star Dragon. Even if it's grounded by the storm banner, it's still pretty fast with M6 and swiftstride. And it's hard to deal with for skaven, except by the doomwheel ZZZZAps.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#21 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm I finally beat the Skaven!
Splendid!
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm Caradryan on Ashtari
Slightly risky perhaps given the Storm Banner but seemed to really work out for you taldarinzphoenix.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm 13 Silver helms, full command
Without mounted characters I'd have been tempted to split this unit.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm he lost 3 wizard levels, lost all his spells except scorch
Payback's a bitch! Did the Seer bring Earthing Rod?
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm Caradryan killed the abomination before it even got to swing, (hit and wounded, 3 flaming attacks, ashtari followed up with 3 wounds, killing it).
Good job.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm something funny that happened, i had 1 single reaver that panic'd and fled from a doomwheel, it ran through a fence, a house, another fence and 2 enemy units, and didnt didnt die, and he was RIGHT infront of the plague rat unit, which i couldnt have planned more perfectly.
Love it when that happens.

:)
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm i reformed after wnning combat to go 3x3 to protect my characters from attacks, and an immenant plague furnace charge in the flank (by reforming it made the charge impossible)
This sounds key.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm killed the bell.
Not easy.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:34 pm one of the most annoying and overpowered spells in the edition depending on the matchup.
Going Infantry-heavy increases exposure here.
Prince of Spires wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:02 pm I must say I am surprised at how often your opponent manages to get dreaded 13th cast
And indeed, IF'd.
Prince of Spires wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:02 pm Of course, perhaps the most brutal option against both Bell and Furnace is the humble Spirit Leech.
Both have MR 2, so the Bell has a 2++ vs Spirit Leech. The Furnace though seems stuck on 5++.
Prince of Spires wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:02 pm Or bring a Star Dragon.
This I would like to see.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#22 Post by Prince of Spires »

I had in mind that the bell had a 4+ ward in total. Which would have been a very different story. In that case, any spells which allow ward saves are not an option. Getting 6 wounds past a 2+ ward save is an impossible task. The grey seer may be a better target, with only LD6. Even with MR2 you could do some serious damage with Spirit Leech to that.

Best option probably is to delay the bell to make sure it doesn't do anything all game, unless you have something that can take it in combat or you can gang up on it while everything else in the Skaven army is gone. A star dragon with some backup will probably be a serious threat to it. S7, T6 means there is little in the skaven army that can harm it, even int he bell unit. And with thunderstomp and breath weapon you can do some serious damage to it and the unit pushing it. Even more if you bring the other tricksters shard on your prince.

The furnace is actually not as tough. It's T6, and has MR2. But other than that there are no saves. In combat it's hard to deal with, but there isn't all that much protecting it. A Star Lance, Other Trickster's Shard prince on horse can do a lot of damage to it on the charge. A prince on dragon will take it out in 1 turn (assuming you don't get challenged of course). Or 4 RBT (assuming the Stormbanner is gone of course, or combined with Hand of Glory) can make a serious dent in it.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#23 Post by Minion X »

Regarding Spirit Leech, according to the definition of "unmodified Leadership" in the rulebook FAQ, a mount like a Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace would get to use the highest Leadership in the unit, which would likely be the character riding it. Since the Strength in Numbers special rule specifically states that Skaven units may only add their rank bonus to Leadership tests, it should not apply to Spirit Leech since Leadership tests are defined as rolling 2D6 against your Ld characteristic.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#24 Post by Minion X »

I recently played against an artillery-heavy Skaven army and lost in part due to a series of consistently lucky artillery dice rolls by my opponent over multiple turns, but mainly because I failed to move into combat quickly enough and tried to get off big spells that targeted his largely worthless infantry units instead of focusing on his weapon teams and war machines. In the end I had like about four Spearmen and three White Lions fighting a unit of 30 Clanrats and winning combats, but failing to break them and reach the unit with the Grey Seer and the Screaming Bell due to Steadfast and Strength in Numbers.
If there is one issue with your list it might be that you only have one big elite infantry unit, so you have no chance of flanking your opponent which is very effective for wiping out big blocks of infantry (or just about anything).
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#25 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

DrSlam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:35 pm
One query - did you find the 2 bolt throwers worth it? I've found 2 don't do much and 3 are the minimum to threaten an enemy. Having at least 3 can also tempt the enemy to send some forces against them, because they are more threatening - think of them as a 'stationary redirector', or more accurately, bait... anything that spreads out enemy forces allows you to concentrate your combat units better against your target enemy units, which I think is how HEs win.
Usually, 2 RBTs dont seem to do much for me, and I am constantly disappointed by what they (don't) do, but when you look at what they actually accomplish, they almost always pay for themselves in points, partially bc they are so cheap for what they do. the bolt throwers in this particular game took out a doomwheel for example. even if thats the only thing they did all game, it was worth it. so i guess to answer your question, yes I definitely found the 2 worth it, but that doesnt mean that 2 is better than 3, or 4.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#26 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Prince of Spires wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:02 pm

One thing to note is that you should make sure you and your opponent know all the rules regarding Skaven. They have a lot of very specific ones. For instance, your opponent seems to be missing that the Storm Banner affects his shooting as much as yours. At least, in the errata it was changed to:

Code: Select all

Page 111 – Storm Banner.
Add “One use only”. Change the start of the third sentence to
“All shooting attacks that don’t use BS [...]”
Which means that his cannon and catapult need to roll for a 4+ just as much as any other war machine.


I must say I am surprised at how often your opponent manages to get dreaded 13th cast together with other spells.



So personally, with a life list I would 6-dice (or however many dice I had available that turn) dwellers at first the bell and then the furnace. You only need to succeed once, and that threat is gone pretty much. Same with Fiery convocation. If you get that off, your opponent loses a large chunk of the unit pushing the bell, and he faces the decision about what to do next turn, dispell it or lose more.


A few other things to consider, I would personally drop the archers and bring another unit of Reavers (and drop the bows on them).


you could always try Teclis. This already gives you access to 2 scrolls, one of which has the chance of removing dreaded 13th from the game, which shuts down a lot of magic. And you could take something like Dwellers, Flame Cage, Final Transmutation, Banishment, Comet, and Spirit Leech.



Or bring a Star Dragon. Even if it's grounded by the storm banner, it's still pretty fast with M6 and swiftstride. And it's hard to deal with for skaven, except by the doomwheel ZZZZAps.
we both missed the point on the storm banner, thank you!

If he has 6 dice, he casts dreaded 13th, every time without fail. if he doesn't have 6 dice, he eats warpstone tokens and casts dreaded 13th. I have seen him fail it before, but in 5? games now, he has cast it successfully.... maybe 12 times, definitely an average of 2-3 casts a game. in 2 of the games, he had a nasty miscast, the first game he lost his greyseer in turn 1, but I lost the game because I had no flaming attacks and couldn't deal with the abomination. In this most recent game, he lost 3 wizard levels, which gave me unstoppable magic domination (especially considering I had the banner of Averlorn). but yea, dreaded 13th cast on (very) expensive elves is probably worth it in the long run.

Archers for reavers, can definitely do. usually i bring 2x reavers and 2x eagles as redirectors, which i find to be enough (usually) but i can definitely use more reavers. they are awesome.

I do plan on using Teclis against him, I was going to do an alarielle high magic list first, but Teclis will be next. I was planning on using Dwellers, Final transmutation, Flame blades, curse of anraheir, net of amnytok, comet, soulblight, and probably withering. but i could see spirit leech over soulblight.

I dont own a dragon model, but I plan on getting one, stardragon looks awesome.
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#27 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

SpellArcher wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:26 pm
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm Caradryan on Ashtari
Slightly risky perhaps given the Storm Banner but seemed to really work out for you taldarinzphoenix.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm 13 Silver helms, full command
Without mounted characters I'd have been tempted to split this unit.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm he lost 3 wizard levels, lost all his spells except scorch
Payback's a bitch! Did the Seer bring Earthing Rod?

The reason I put Caradryan in the list was specifically to have ASF flaming attacks to knock regeneration off the abomination so that Ashtari could kill it. it was pretty much a direct counterplay to the abomination. Last game, he charged the abomination into my frost phoenix, and they pretty much just stared at eachother for a few rounds, locking it down. I didnt want that to happen again. bc Caradryan is a character, I got to place him down last with my other characters, and I got to see where the abomination would likely have to be placed, and he put it right across from it. even with the storm banner (which only affected me 1 turn this game) I held the phoenix back to make sure It was being used against the abomination first.

I agree that I should have split the Silverhelms up, the upside to keeping them all together however was that they got a turn2 charge, that held the plague rat unit in place during turn 2, and i think 3, my reaver blocked it from moving in turn 4, so he could really only use his plague furnace and 50 plague rats in turn 5 as a shooting attack, and turn 6 for a charge after I killed the bell. Had the helms not held for a turn, I certainly would have been flank charged by the plague rats. it was random luck but if the unit was 5-10 inches farther forward, the reaver that panic would have fled through that unit as well, and then id have to deal with that horde for turns 4-5-6 instead of just turn 6

He doesnt bring any magic items on his GreySeer, just a dispel scroll I think. he puts it on the bell, thats all. I hesitate to suggest he reassess his magic item layout on it, because either the earthing rod or power scroll (for a 3-4 dice dreaded 13th) or even the book of ashur would be devastating. if it were me, id put book of ashur on it for more reliability, and not go so hard on dreaded 13th, but for his playstyle which is hyper-risky magic phase, the earthing rod makes much more sense. (nobody tell him :D )
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#28 Post by SpellArcher »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:03 pm Caradryan is a character, I got to place him down last with my other characters, and I got to see where the abomination would likely have to be placed
Solid reasoning.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:03 pm I agree that I should have split the Silverhelms up, the upside to keeping them all together however was that they got a turn2 charge, that held the plague rat unit in place during turn 2, and i think 3
Kudos,it worked.
taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:03 pm I hesitate to suggest he reassess his magic item layout
Yes, let's keep this one to ourselves.

:lol:
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#29 Post by Prince of Spires »

taldarinzphoenix wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:35 pm If he has 6 dice, he casts dreaded 13th, every time without fail. if he doesn't have 6 dice, he eats warpstone tokens and casts dreaded 13th. I have seen him fail it before, but in 5? games now, he has cast it successfully.... maybe 12 times, definitely an average of 2-3 casts a game. in 2 of the games, he had a nasty miscast, the first game he lost his greyseer in turn 1, but I lost the game because I had no flaming attacks and couldn't deal with the abomination. In this most recent game, he lost 3 wizard levels, which gave me unstoppable magic domination (especially considering I had the banner of Averlorn). but yea, dreaded 13th cast on (very) expensive elves is probably worth it in the long run.
Isn't dreaded's casting value 25? 6 dice give an average of 21, which means that you on average manage to get it with a lvl4. Add in a few IF, and it's a bit more than average. But getting it 12 times without fail sounds lucky. Don't feel too bad about that then :)

Still, it's always nice to come up against a challenge. Though if you feel you've had enough you can always ask your friend to bring something else. After all, it's a game. The purpose is for both sides to have fun...
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Re: How to deal with Skaven as High elves

#30 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

Prince of Spires wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:33 pm
Isn't dreaded's casting value 25? 6 dice give an average of 21, which means that you on average manage to get it with a lvl4. Add in a few IF, and it's a bit more than average. But getting it 12 times without fail sounds lucky. Don't feel too bad about that then :)

Still, it's always nice to come up against a challenge. Though if you feel you've had enough you can always ask your friend to bring something else. After all, it's a game. The purpose is for both sides to have fun...
ah, a bit of a miscommunication, he doesnt aways *successfully* cast it, he has failed it, maybe 1-2 times a game, but what I meant to say that if he has 6 dice available to him, it will certainly be attempted that turn. in 5 games he has successfully cast it 12 times, but has *attempted* to cast it probably more like 18 or 19 times.

I am definitely having fun, its an interesting obstacle to have to overcome, and I finally did it!
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