The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

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Ramesesis
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The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#1 Post by Ramesesis »

I start this topic because I always, always ends up having angst when it comes to what characters to take, or not take etc.

I made a BSB for my Cothique army that I am rather proud of. She did make my White Lions go down fighting last game.

But then I realized I could almost get the same giving the the Banner of Courage.

In WAP, fear is no longer that issue of constant leadership tests it used to be so I feel that while cool and all a BSB is not as important.

At the same time, almost every combat character not bringing a monster seem to be viewed as not worth their points. Are there ways to make a prince worth his points unless mounted?

Feel free to expand and discuss! I know High elves rock the magic but somehow I really like to go toe to toe.

I am considering taking a noble in my lion chariot again but it feels wrong since it is supposed to be a Cothique army and the Chracian element should be there as support.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#2 Post by Aerendar Valandil »

Banner of courage only works for one unit, isn't it?

With high elves very few units are expendable, so a reroll for break test is a must IMO. I really lost battles because of bad dice rolls, a risk of 10 is perhapsOK, but a 9 or 8 is risky too risky, and even with a 10 not all units haves stubborn. Last battle I saved my Swordmasters with an essential 5 on the second roll (needed a 6). I find the Seahelm very useful for a BSB, as he is relatively cheap. However, in my last battle I had spears and not Seaguards as main core unit, so I chose for fluff reasons to take a noble. As champions cannot take challenges anymore, a foot combat character is also very useful if you have a mage in your main unit.

Yes, I also struggle with taking combat characters, especially princes. (as in many other editions), HE really pushes towards (arch)mages. I have tried though, and with a few 1 or 2 mages and some dispel stuff, the worst of the enemy magic can be countered, alt least in the first few turns.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

I agree, BSB is less risky.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

For me it's always about what do the characters bring to the table. And simply "killing models in close combat" doesn't do it for me. I find that there are more points efficient ways to achieve that. A kitted out prince clocks in at something like 200-250 points. For that amount you get 4 S6 attacks. That also gets you 15 WL, which bring 15 S6 attacks, allow you to take a banner etc. They also have 15 wounds compared to 3. So just point for point the character is less efficient when it comes to dealing out wounds.

Which means to make a character viable you need to look beyond simply doing damage.

A mage has magic obviously, which is a great force multiplier, and which can do stuff combat units can't. There's a limit to their efficiency, since power dice are limited. So you'll take one or two of those.

A BSB again does stuff a combat unit can't. The reroll is very powerful. Even without fear playing a role. But if you lose combat and have to roll a 6 to hold, then you'll be happy to have him around. And even a LD9 roll can fail. The reroll just makes the whole army that much more reliable. It's always crucial if you can simply point a unit in a direction and know exactly what the outcome will be (bar terrible rolling of course).

Characters on monsters again do stuff that regular troops can't. Fear / terror is already a thing. But they're usually also very tough, very mobile, and do a lot of damage on a very narrow front. That's all stuff rank and file models don't do. They're also great at points denial, since they're usually hard to kill.

When you get to other characters the situation becomes a lot less clear. A cavalry prince has some bonusses. He keeps doing damage in later rounds of combat. His extra punch on a narrow front means you're more likely to break enemies on the charge while minimizing rubber lance syndrom. That's a reason to take him, but it's a lot more playstyle dependent if he's worth it. For regular characters on foot I just haven't really found a role. For High Elves they're either squishy, don't do a lot of damage, or both. It's partially because they're S4, T3 models. That just doesn't do all that much. And they're expensive. All in all, I find it very hard to justify them in pretty much any situation.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#5 Post by Aerendar Valandil »

I keep trying. I think having fighty characters, either on foor or mounted, is fluffy. But yes, the temptation f just buying elite R&F is high.

There is one reason for adding a hero though: a hero can take or issue a challenge to avoid you mage being involved in one.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

There’s a case for keeping BSB and General on foot in the centre, to radiate re-rolls and Ld 10. It’s also helpful to mages in terms of spell targeting etc.. 8th edition lets you reliably push the Ward saves to 3+ with Shield of Saphery which makes a huge difference to survivability. I’m unsure of the best attempt at this in other editions.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#7 Post by taldarinzphoenix »

I would say that if your main combat block is a block of white lions that have a noble or mage in the block with the banner of courage, they will fail roughly 8% of their stubborn break tests in combat, or terror/panic checks etc. with a BSB, and no banner of courage, the chances of failing such a test are like 2-3%. also keep in mind, although a noble is 100+ points with banner and items, you can usually pretty reliably get 1 more combat res with him, and there is no stand your ground rule in WAP. having 8 more white lions in the combat block rarely leads to 8 more attacks, the noble will reliably give you 3 str5 attacks in place of 1 strength 6 with a magic weapon. Nothing can be taken in a bubble, but in a standard 2000-2500 pt game, a BSB is still better than not having one.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#8 Post by Tethlis »

A little late to the conversation, but I generally find myself agreeing with Prince of Spires on this topic. You typically want your characters doing something that your units can't, because units are almost always more attacks and more wounds relative to the points.

Prince - A flying monster-riding high-Toughness Prince is self explanatory. Sometimes you want this, sometimes you don't, but the niche is clear. A Prince in a Silverhelm unit is a bit less defined, but still very valuable: Our cavalry becomes Strength 3 after they spend their charge, and they typically lack Ward Saves and hitting power on a small frontage. A Cavalry Prince can help with all of this. A Prince on foot probably does the least... He brings some attacks, he can bring some durability, but our Infantry does okay grinding out across multiple rounds of combat. This is probably the least focused use of a Prince.

Magic - Self explanatory, and I think any magic user can probably find utility in both Offense and Defense.

BSB - At the end of the day, a BSB is actually not that expensive. Yes, you could probably take a cheaper magic banner on a unit to help replicate the effect of the re-roll, but that assumes you don't want a different magic banner that possibly helps the unit fulfill their role better. For example, I rarely take Phoenix Guard without the Razor Standard, just because I find a net -2 to armor really helps them grind in combat compared to only being Strength 4 alone. Since I want my Phoenix Guard to stick in combat... I bring the Battle Standard Bearer and park them nearby.

Anointed of Asuryan: This is actually one of my favorite WAP options. Immune to Psychology is huge, now that things like Panic and Terror rarely get to be re-rolled. Depending on how you build your army, the defensive utility is big. If you field a combat character on foot, I think the Anointed is actually the best bet. Coming with a built-in Ward Save means you can stretch your Magic Item points further, and the bonuses he gives to his unit are all very helpful.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#9 Post by Ramesesis »

A prince on horse is an interesting option but I feel it depends on how much cavalry you field.
I have at the moment one unit of 6 Silver helms as my total cavalry force.
Putting a prince there would surely boost them but a few dead helms and your prince is quickly alone.
So a cavalry prince needs at least 9+ Silver helms in my opinion. Dragon princes could work with only a handful though.
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Re: The importance (?) Battle Standard bearers and other characters in WAP and in general

#10 Post by Tethlis »

I don't disagree. I think 9 Helms, and potentially more, would be the way to go. The reason I think a decent unit of Helms with Prince is still relevant is because it's far easier in the current rules for them to negate Steadfast, thanks to unit Strength and the value of Flank and Rear charges. Helms remain quick, have dependable charge distances compared to infantry, have a certain amount of combat reliability thanks to impact hits, and have reasonable durability without needing a lot of magic or additional unit support. Since the rest of my lists are primarily elite infantry and shooting, have a robust fast attack unit gives me some tactical flexibility too. They help the list feel less static.
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