Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

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Ramesesis
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Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#1 Post by Ramesesis »

As always, the constant problem for High elves is never having enough points for characters and units.

I like to field the Loremaster since A) Loremaster must be fielded on foot B) Being a Wizard means always being able to do something even when not fighting. C) Can fight pretty well and therefore help any infantry unit to kick some ass.

In many ways the loremaster is a no-brainer if you want a fighting Lord with your infantry.

I remember that since I started playing the majority opinion has always been that princes and even commanders on foot are a waste. A prince should at least be on a horse and some say the prince is only worth it riding a dragon.

I really like the sight of a hero standing among the rank and file and sharing their danger. And having only 6 silver helms at the moment it feels wrong to put a prince or noble there since the army as a whole still move slow and will not be there to support them regardless.

My friend fields Tomb kings, Vampire counts and sometimes dwarves. He likes to field lots of core troops, preferably several units of one kind so it looks like a proper army. And while I fielded a loremaster, a level 2 mage, a noble in a lion chariot and a bsb he fielded a tomb king, two tomb princes, a bsb and two mages! He had to go with very little magical items in order to fit everything. But his king and princes gave huge benefits to his infantry units, making my elves fight against higher weaponskill thanks to My will be done!

A flying character would have been very risky since archery in WAP is murderous! Even a dragon better watch out.
And if forces to fight a unit lead by a tomb king even our elite infantry would be at a disadvantage since suddenly all skellies have WS6!

My friend remarked that none of my characters were really infantry killers. I did not consider that since I expected my own infantry to be able to deal with his in one on ones.

Is an infantry killing prince maybe not such a bad idea?

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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Ramesesis wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:12 pm
Is an infantry killing prince maybe not such a bad idea?
We do need something to kill infantry. In 8th, received wisdom is that most units are good at that. I guess when we look at the detail with HIgh Elves it's not always so clear. Few Monstrous troops to Stomp. War Machines yes but RBT are OK vs infantry rather than awesome. Normally Swordmasters but that WS issue you mentioned Ramesesis could complicate things. I guess unridden Phoenixes.

One concern is Killing Blow, both Grave Guard and Tomb Guard bring it. A 4+ Ward obviously helps and there are other measures, Charmed Shield for example. But I'd be wary of getting my Prince into a grind with these Undead elites without some way to quickly gain the upper hand.

Minion X
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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#3 Post by Minion X »

Rather than a Prince, I have been fielding a Noble with Dragon Armour, a halberd, the Reaver Bow and a Potion of Strength in my unit of 20 Spearmen (or 19 spearmen and the Noble). As you pointed out, High Elves don't really need heroes for mowing down infantry since their elite infantry is already good at it. The purpose of the aforementioned Noble is instead to threaten heavy cavalry and monsters and other well-armoured or tough foes that the Spearmen struggle with. I try to save the Potion of Strength for when the unit is about to be charged by something nasty, like a Warsphinx in my most recent game, in order to get off three Stand and Shoot shots with S8 in addition to the three close-combat attacks at S8. The Noble isn't particularly durable, even if the Dragon Armour can be a lifesaver, but with Stand and Shoot and Always Strikes First he is bound to at least get his attacks in even if he is singled out by some powerful enemy.
So if you field a Prince or Noble on foot, you could try and have him compensate for whatever weakness his unit has, like the ability to deal with enemies with high armour saves or high Toughness. Then again, an Anointed likely does that better since he comes with a ward save and gives the entire unit a big boost.

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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#4 Post by SpellArcher »

Minion X wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:15 pm
I have been fielding a Noble with Dragon Armour, a halberd, the Reaver Bow and a Potion of Strength
I like this idea,it's a little risky but played carefully could yield results. You can sometimes move him out of the unit to effect.
Minion X wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:15 pm
Potion of Strength for when the unit is about to be charged by something nasty, like a Warsphinx
This has worked for me in the past.
Minion X wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:15 pm
three Stand and Shoot shots with S8 in addition to the three close-combat attacks at S8
Yeah, absolutely.
Minion X wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:15 pm
The Noble isn't particularly durable, even if the Dragon Armour can be a lifesaver
Some lists kill two birds with one stone by making this guy the BSB but then of course you don't want to take as many chances with him.
Minion X wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:15 pm
Then again, an Anointed likely does that better since he comes with a ward save and gives the entire unit a big boost.
Another idea in 8th is to field the combat Lord alongide an Archmage on HIgh Magic, so Shield of Saphery almost guarantees a 3+ Ward on both. These are frequently combined with Phoenx Guard. To be honest, PG look a pretty good bet against Undead elites anyway. The Ward reduces the impact of enemy characters and ASF mitigates boosted enemy WS.

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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#5 Post by Minion X »

I divide my heroes between different units so as not to put my eggs in one basket and to give as many of them as possible a boost. Last time I had a Loremaster as my general in a unit of White Lions with the Standard of Discipline, giving him Ld 10 for Inspiring Presence and protecting the unit with Earthblood, a level 2 High Mage with Ironcurse Iron in a unit of Swordmasters with the Lichebone Pennant to maximize Shield of Saphery, the Battle Standard Bearer with the Crown of Command in a unit Phoenix Guard to make sure they stay put and fight to the last man, the aforementioned Noble with the Spearmen to help them actually kill things, and a mounted Noble with the Star Lance to accompany my Silver Helms and give them some extra punch.

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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#6 Post by Minion X »

Anyway, on the topic of anti-infantry Princes on foot, high elf lords aren't exactly cut out for that role (lacking a base S5 and 4+ armour), but maybe something like Blade of Leaping Gold, Shield of the Merwyrm and Potion of Strength would help to add more wounds to your combat resolution? Otherwise, the best way for a Prince to kill infantry in 8E variants must be on the back of a monster like a dragon or griffon thanks to Thunderstomp and Flaming Breath.

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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

The main issue with infantry killing by a character is the combination of the low number of attacks (relatively speaking), the low base S, and the low T.

Low T means that protection is important, so you can't just spend all points on offense. Low S means that adding more attacks (with Sword of Strife for instance), doesn't work as well. As such, you're always limited to max 4 attack, which just isn't all that much against a large infantry unit. They are very reliable attacks though, with ASF, I8 and WS7, you're reasonably likely to hit with all 4 attacks against many targets. But that's all you're getting.

Another big difference with other races is that the characters of many other races bring different benefits to the army. The My Will be Done rule is a good example. Even having a character without any equipment makes the undead unit better, simply because he's there. It's like a unit upgrade. Same with vampires, they're excelent fighter who you can give magic spells. They might not be the most powerful spells, but your opponent does have to consider them. A HE archmage or BSB is similar (which is why the BSB is such a no-brainer). Having them makes the whole army better.

A prince does no such thing. On foot he's simply another fighting model, who gets you 4 attacks for a lot of points. For 1 prince you could get something like 15 WL (or PG or SM). And the Lions are a lot better at dealing with many units. Yes, you miss the ASF, potentially higher S, but you gain a whole bunch of S6 attacks. Mounted at least he's a fast and hard hitting models who can dictate where he fights and carve through an enemy army. On foot, I'm not sure what he adds.
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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#8 Post by SpellArcher »

Minion X wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:31 pm
Anyway, on the topic of anti-infantry Princes on foot, high elf lords aren't exactly cut out for that role (lacking a base S5 and 4+ armour), but maybe something like Blade of Leaping Gold, Shield of the Merwyrm and Potion of Strength would help to add more wounds to your combat resolution?
Prince of Spires wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:01 pm
A prince does no such thing. On foot he's simply another fighting model, who gets you 4 attacks for a lot of points. For 1 prince you could get something like 15 WL (or PG or SM). And the Lions are a lot better at dealing with many units. Yes, you miss the ASF, potentially higher S, but you gain a whole bunch of S6 attacks.
I guess where the Prince makes the most sense on foot is in a deathstar. Probably the 3+ Ward Phoenix Guard one. The PG take few casualties but struggle to take down high Toughness or armour, which is where a S7 ASF Prince with Giant Blade comes in. He also very securely radiates Ld 10. Killing Blow remains an issue vs undead elites but if he can get past that he should take out those pesky Tomb KIngs characters and remove My Will Be Done. A tooled up Vampire Lord will probably wear even this Prince down over time but the PG should dominate Grave Guard or such and give the VC's a pretty rapid crumbling issue.

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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#9 Post by Prince of Spires »

I can see that working, yes. Though HE don't do a very good death star in my opinion. 3+ ward Phoenix Guard are one of the options, though I feel they would still die to other death stars with higher damage output. I would also be tempted by some other magic lore. Mindrazored PG are probably the single best unit in the game, with no exceptions, but even Wildform helps them a lot. I'm not sure having a mage in there will benefit them all that much, other than the increased ward save.

But having a Prince in there helps by pushing a mage to the second rank (assuming full command and BSB in there), and by indeed taking on some of tougher opponents or characters.
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Re: Fielding a prince in Warhammer Armies project

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:32 am
Though HE don't do a very good death star in my opinion.
I would agree with you Rod, if it weren't for World Dragon and Shield of Saphery. The former enables those 20-strong Silver Helm Bus lists for example.
Prince of Spires wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:32 am
3+ ward Phoenix Guard are one of the options, though I feel they would still die to other death stars with higher damage output.
Even with just the Archmage, this unit was a monster in Seredain's games, so few things can deal with it. With Prince and BSB, this was the build that won the US Masters a few years ago. It does damage and that 3+ Ward on all models is a nightmare for the enemy to get wounds past.
Prince of Spires wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:32 am
I'm not sure having a mage in there will benefit them all that much, other than the increased ward save.
Having a solid unit to bunker an AM is really important. He's not immortal in the PG but that step up to 3++ makes a world of difference.

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