Making Shadow Warriors viable

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Prince of Spires
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Making Shadow Warriors viable

#1 Post by Prince of Spires »

In a discussion on a battle report here, I got to thinking about shadow warriors. Out of all the entries in the HE army book I would argue that they are the worst option, below a skycutter even and on part with a lothern sea helm. Yes, they scout and skirmish, but they don't bring anything to the table which isn't done better by other units. Perhaps their only use is to block your opponents scouts from deploying too close. But other than that, reavers and eagles are much faster, which lets them block and redirect a lot more effectively than SW. They are S3, T3 5+ models, who only get 1 shot. Yes, they are BS5 and likely short range, but you're also likely to move, which means you're hitting on 3+ only. So in a small unit you're likely to get 1 wound, maybe. And that's without factoring any saves.

Which leaves me curious, since they are a kick-ass unit fluff wise, has anyone made them work. Or alternatively, what house-rules can we come up with to make them worth taking (without making them overpowered).

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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

The player I knew who had perhaps the best understanding of the value and use of units was Curu Olannon, formerly of this forum. Not only of High Elves but of all the armies and of the metagame. He was acutely aware of how a small change to an army list impacted the army's functionality against many possible foes and indeed could lead to changes in how they built their rosters. He was a firm believer that there would always be new ways to build a list, new builds to discover in the books and that the meta was a very fluid thing. I agree with this and so, I'm wary of house rules. The rulebooks, complex as they are, constitute a body of information we all refer to when discussing the game. Common ground, as it were. Make changes to that and we get a butterfly effect, where certain units and combinations in all the books can be altered and it gets harder to discuss and keep track of where the game stands. Obviously, this issue is quite limited if said house rules are only used between the same two players and armies say. Out of interest, I recall Curu considering Shadow Warriors worthy of attention but not something that up to that point had made sense to include in his army lists. The Lothern Sea Helm though, appeared in several ETC lists and was used at the highest level. I'd probably lack the skill to exploit it myself but in the hands of a strong player, he can be pretty useful. Shadow Warriors might not prove that functional but at first, I think it helps to consider how many we're talking about.

A unit of five obviously has little firepower, though multiples of that unit might change things. As you mention Rod, it can be used on occasion to restrict the Scouting of the enemy. My last High Elf game was against a tricked-out Lizardman list with Tetto'eko. Using the latter's special rules, my opponent was able to Vanguard his deathstar into my army's face. A unit of five Scouting Shadow Warriors could have prevented that. At 70 points they can also redirect at a pinch, as you reference. A unit of ten (maybe Martial Prowess suggest a 12 or something?) works slightly differently. It's raw shooting power is indeed unimpressive but the ability to deploy those shots much more flexibly changes things somewhat. Yes, a Scouted unit might need to move but equally, it might not. It'll also find it easier to target whichever enemy it needs to. Deployed in a wood it's -2 to be hit and in a house, -3, with a 360 degree arc of fire. Normal units can't quickly occupy buildings half way across the field but Scouts can.

As the unit will probably be far from the rest of the army, utilising shooting buffs could be difficult. The Withering though, has a 36" range when boosted. The Dragon Mage is interesting here because he might well be within 24 inches for Flaming Sword. Scouted SW's with that could easily target a key Regen unit, opening the way for supporting RBT to hammer it. Enchanted Blades also has a good range but might require several levels of Metal magic to select reliably. One obvious idea is to combine with Alith Anar (or a character in Shadow Armour). Alith gives the unit an extra -1 to be hit and Swiftstride, which might be handy. Of course it's not the most secure place for a character and big A can't March and shoot, which restricts things slightly. Another option is to take a champion with Reaver Bow, yielding three S4 shots. A subtle improvement maybe but those shots are also Magical, which could prove useful against Hexwraiths.

Of course the challenge would be to write a list where taking them is better than not taking them...
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#3 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:The Lothern Sea Helm though, appeared in several ETC lists and was used at the highest level.
I agree with your assessment that the butterfly effect tends to be strong (and Curu really was a master at this). This is actually a prime example of that. ETC was just a very different game in terms of list building. The rules were already very different, with plenty of houserules especially when it came to list building. But then also it was a team tournament (often forgotten in the discussions), where some players and armies had other jobs than just "stomp the enemy into the ground". There was a lot of value in simply not losing against whatever the opponent would bring for instance.
SpellArcher wrote: Of course the challenge would be to write a list where taking them is better than not taking them...
I have a bit more space to play in since I don't play tournaments. A list for me should be fun and "good enough". So choices need to contribute enough to be viable, but I don't need to have the best list ever.

With that said, I think a unit of 5 has very limited use. It's there to deny enemy vanguard and scouts and to redirect. They are 20 pts cheaper than 5 reavers with musician, but they are also slower (with vanguard, fast cavalry and 18'' movement, they can get pretty much anywhere the SW can even on T1). They are too weak in combat and 5 S3 shot don't accomplish anything whatsovever.

Which means making them bigger might be the way to go. As in my recent battle, 20-ish shots accomplish something, even against tough stuff, simply because you're bound to roll 6's if you have enough dice. I like the idea of adding Alith Anar to them. I think he's a wonderfully fluffy character, with a middle powerlevel and he's a nice budget lord choice.

I'm now also thinking (since we're making an expensive unit here anyway). What if I add a Loremaster to this unit as well. Suddenly there's 20 shots, a RBT and a character throwing 3 magic missiles and a bunch of hexes at you from your flank. You could give the loremaster Shadow armour, Reaver bow, talisman of endurance and potion of Strength or Shadow armour, book of hoeth, opal amulet (or something like that), which leaves the reaver bow for a handmaiden.

The question then is what to bring with the rest of the army. As core I would probably go for what I brough in my last skaven battle: 24 archers, 10 SH with full command and 5 reavers. It's also crying out for 20 sisters, and I might consider a handmaiden with reaver bow here. I'm not sure how many points would be left, but it probably wants a combat unit of sorts. Maybe 15 PG with full command and razor banner (400-ish points if I remember correctly). They're probably the most durable of units we can field and they can operate independently reasonably well.

What do you think?

Rules question about the Shadow Armour: It doens't actually list an armour type (similar to the dragon helm). Does this mean it combines with heavy armour? If so then that would make it a much more viable choice. Heavy armour, shield, shadow armour would get you a 2+ armour save.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#4 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I agree with your assessment that the butterfly effect tends to be strong (and Curu really was a master at this). This is actually a prime example of that. ETC was just a very different game in terms of list building. The rules were already very different, with plenty of houserules especially when it came to list building. But then also it was a team tournament (often forgotten in the discussions), where some players and armies had other jobs than just "stomp the enemy into the ground". There was a lot of value in simply not losing against whatever the opponent would bring for instance.
Fair point Rod.
Prince of Spires wrote:I like the idea of adding Alith Anar to them. I think he's a wonderfully fluffy character, with a middle powerlevel and he's a nice budget lord choice.
Less "The Shadow King", more "The Badass". There's something to be said for a mobile S7 Bolt Shooter that hits on 2's. I feel he might be interesting in a unit of PG with a High Magic Archmage say. So he's probably getting a 3+ Ward and the PG get -1 to be hit with shooting and Swiftstride which is golden. I suspect he can Stand and Shoot (hitting on 2's) also.
Prince of Spires wrote:I'm now also thinking (since we're making an expensive unit here anyway). What if I add a Loremaster to this unit as well. Suddenly there's 20 shots, a RBT and a character throwing 3 magic missiles and a bunch of hexes at you from your flank. You could give the loremaster Shadow armour, Reaver bow, talisman of endurance and potion of Strength or Shadow armour, book of hoeth, opal amulet (or something like that), which leaves the reaver bow for a handmaiden.
That is an 'all in' unit!
Prince of Spires wrote:The question then is what to bring with the rest of the army. As core I would probably go for what I brough in my last skaven battle: 24 archers, 10 SH with full command and 5 reavers. It's also crying out for 20 sisters, and I might consider a handmaiden with reaver bow here. I'm not sure how many points would be left, but it probably wants a combat unit of sorts. Maybe 15 PG with full command and razor banner (400-ish points if I remember correctly). They're probably the most durable of units we can field and they can operate independently reasonably well.
List please.

:)
Prince of Spires wrote:Rules question about the Shadow Armour: It doens't actually list an armour type (similar to the dragon helm). Does this mean it combines with heavy armour? If so then that would make it a much more viable choice. Heavy armour, shield, shadow armour would get you a 2+ armour save.
Am I right in thinking GW never released an FAQ for the HE book? I read pg 174 of the rulebook as suggesting we couldn't combine Shadow Armour with mundane.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#5 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: List please.
This is what I came up with:

Lords
575 points
Alith Anar
Loremaster, shadow armour, Book of Hoeth, opal amulet

Heros
304 points
BSB, barded steed, HA, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone
handmaiden, reaver bow, potion of Strength

Core
630 points
18 archers, musician
10 SH, full command, shields
5 reavers, musician
5 reavers, musician

Special
640 points
19 Phoenix Guard, full command, armour piercing banner
20 Shadow Warriors

Rare
350 points
RBT
20 Sisters

Comes in at 2499 pts. I went for a 2500 instead of 2400 list, since otherwise it becomes a bit unbalanced I feel. I'd drop the RBT and some core for a 2400pts list I think. There's a few things which can be swapped around here. The RBT can go for instance (just 1 isn't all that reliable after all), Which then leaves points for PG nr 20, a champion on the SW and some stuff, or a small unit of 5 SM, or a tiranoc chariot. Or something else. But I thought it fitted with the theme of the list.

It lacks a scroll (and only has a 2+ to disspell), but the book makes up for some of that. And it makes for a surprisingly strong magic phase given the points invested. For this list I like the extra reaver unit more than more archers.
SpellArcher wrote: Am I right in thinking GW never released an FAQ for the HE book? I read pg 174 of the rulebook as suggesting we couldn't combine Shadow Armour with mundane.
I can't find an FAQ either. I don't think they released one. Or if they did I don't have it and I have to do without one ;) But I can't remember any big changes even if they did release one. Are you sure pg 174 is the correct one? I have fluff on that page.

As for how to rule it, I'm not sure. It's different from most other magical armour in that it doesn't give an armour type. Compare Shadow armour with Armour of fortune for instance. Shadow armour simply starts with "the wearer has a 5+ save." while Armour of fortune starts with "Heavy armour. The armour grants the wearer...". In a sense it's similar to the Dragon helm, which is generally accepted as combining with armour. That also starts with "The wearer counts..." without mentioning a type.

The main counter argument I see is that the Shadow Armour doesn't state that it increases your save by 2 (like the dragon helm does), but simply that you have a 5+. Which would suggest that you could combine it with other armour, but it wouldn't have an effect.

I'm not sure which way to rule it. I'm not sure the scout rule is powerful enough to warrant a 25pts cost (since strider is pretty useless for a model on foot). And with just a 5+ save it's just not a good item at all. On the other hand, if it does combine, then it opens the door to 2+ armour save characters on foot. Which is pretty great to have even without the scouting part thrown in.

Maybe I'll simply discuss it with my opponent. I don't think a 3+ save on the loremaster is broken, also given the weirdness of the list.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#6 Post by MasterOfNone »

The description of Shadow Armour on p62 of the HE army book says (in the fluff section) "this shimmering armour...".
Which to me means it is an armour and you cannot stack two armours. That in my eyes indeed makes this item overpriced.
A helm or a shield are a different matter. With an enchanted shield you could get down to AS 3+, or have 4+/4++ with the Shield of the Merwyrm (in H2H combat only), but obviously you are using a great weapon, so no shield. With a cheap magic sword you could get around this problem but you don't have enough points.

I can't see how to square the circle of having the shadow armour and the book of hoeth and a few necessary additional protective items. Maybe you should think which of the two is more important and let go of the other. Does the Loremaster really need to go with the Shadow Warriors? Can you not stick him with the PG?

The only useful suggestion I can give in this build is that the Golden Crown is far better than the opal amulet and also cheaper.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:I can't see how to square the circle of having the shadow armour and the book of hoeth and a few necessary additional protective items. Maybe you should think which of the two is more important and let go of the other.
The Book is tempting but I am of course in the 'always take a scroll' camp. I guess the Loremaster is in a unit that can deploy very flexibly and so often avoid combats it doesn't like the look of. He might be more secure though with Shadow Armour, Scroll, 4+ Ward.
Prince of Spires wrote:On the other hand, if it does combine, then it opens the door to 2+ armour save characters on foot.
This is possible with Armour of Caledor or Silvered Steel, something it took me a long time to work out with my orcs.
Prince of Spires wrote:Are you sure pg 174 is the correct one? I have fluff on that page.
I have the small rulebook, it's the Magic Armour page:

"A model can only have one suit of armour and one shield, so if you give a model a magical suit of armour or a magical shield, it replaces any mundane equivalent already worn by the model."
Prince of Spires wrote:I'm not sure the scout rule is powerful enough to warrant a 25pts cost
My gut feeling is that it should be but that depends on finding a character who can make really good use of it. The Loremaster is the only Wizard option and looks at least worth a try. The trouble with a Noble or Handmaiden is that you almost certainly want Reaver Bow and then it's kind of "Is that it?" A Prince might be an idea, with Reaver Bow and Ring of Fury?

As far as the list goes, it looks workable to me. I'd hestitate to drop the RBT for all-comers, I think it's needed against powerful flyers. There are many archers to defend, so 2 x Reavers looks right, it might also be necessary to use the Helms as an interceptor on occasion. My taste would still be for a smaller, less ambitious Shadow Warrior unit but it would be good to see this larger one get a run out.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

MasterOfNone wrote:The description of Shadow Armour on p62 of the HE army book says (in the fluff section) "this shimmering armour...".
I don't like using the fluff for rules decisions though. There's too many examples of the fluff contradicting the rules. Doesn't mean that you're wrong of course...
MasterOfNone wrote: The only useful suggestion I can give in this build is that the Golden Crown is far better than the opal amulet and also cheaper.
This is a good catch. I'll swap them out. :) thanks!
MasterOfNone wrote: I can't see how to square the circle of having the shadow armour and the book of hoeth and a few necessary additional protective items. Maybe you should think which of the two is more important and let go of the other. Does the Loremaster really need to go with the Shadow Warriors? Can you not stick him with the PG?
SpellArcher wrote: The Book is tempting but I am of course in the 'always take a scroll' camp. I guess the Loremaster is in a unit that can deploy very flexibly and so often avoid combats it doesn't like the look of. He might be more secure though with Shadow Armour, Scroll, 4+ Ward.
The "issue" with the scroll is that the book just makes the loremaster so much better. It's almost made for the character. With 8 low casting value spells, rerolling 1 dice is just golden. With a big phase you really benefit from the reroll, and it turns a meh phase into an awesome one. Without a lvl 4 there you need the book to make him worth it.

It is possible to put him elsewhere, though even then you probably don't want him in combat. It's just very hard to make him durable, with only heavy armour as an option. The SW are then a good place for him, since the rest of that unit also doesn't want to be in combat. Alith Anar only has light armour and a 4+ ward, and the SW only have light armour and are s3 1A models. It's a mobile shooting platform, delivering a RBT which hits on 2+ in all but the most extreme circumstances in the enemy backline. Adding 3 magic misiles and spirit leech to the mix only works to increase that.
SpellArcher wrote: This is possible with Armour of Caledor or Silvered Steel, something it took me a long time to work out with my orcs.
Both are too expensive for HE characters for what they do though. I can see it work for Orcs because of the base S5 T5, which means you don't need a lot of extra power to kill stuff and still be safe. But a HE character on foot will need a magic weapon and would like a ward in there as well, simply because T3 means that a quarter of all attacks of even the lowliest creature wound you. Make that S5, and you're wounded on 2+ and only have a 4+ save left, compared to wounded on 4+ followed by a 4+. With shadow armour combining with stuff, you would only spend 25pts on the armour, leaving you with 75pts for other stuff. Something like shadow armour, ogre blade, talisman of endurance, heavy armour, shield would be a decent character. Don't the DE have an option like this?
SpellArcher wrote: "A model can only have one suit of armour and one shield, so if you give a model a magical suit of armour or a magical shield, it replaces any mundane equivalent already worn by the model."
Ah, that rule. Yeah, I agree that might be the one getting in the way. But unlike other armour, the shadow armour actually doesn't mention it's armour. I mean, if it was called shadow helm with the exact same description people probably would combine them.
SpellArcher wrote: My gut feeling is that it should be but that depends on finding a character who can make really good use of it. The Loremaster is the only Wizard option and looks at least worth a try. The trouble with a Noble or Handmaiden is that you almost certainly want Reaver Bow and then it's kind of "Is that it?" A Prince might be an idea, with Reaver Bow and Ring of Fury?

As far as the list goes, it looks workable to me. I'd hestitate to drop the RBT for all-comers, I think it's needed against powerful flyers. There are many archers to defend, so 2 x Reavers looks right, it might also be necessary to use the Helms as an interceptor on occasion. My taste would still be for a smaller, less ambitious Shadow Warrior unit but it would be good to see this larger one get a run out.
Prince with reaver bow and ring of fury might be an idea. Though I'm not sure he adds all that much to the shadow warrior unit (other than 3 S5 shots and a magic missile).

How would you run the SW unit to make it work? My feeling is that when you go for less ambitious, you're simply better off taking something else. You could easily swap out the SW unit for 20 WL (or something like that anyway), which is a great unit. Or 10 WL and 10 SW. But i just don't see 10 SW do all that much. They're still S3 T3 6+ save models, with 1 S6 shot each. Even replacing them with reavers with bows might give stronger results in small units.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Ah, that rule. Yeah, I agree that might be the one getting in the way. But unlike other armour, the shadow armour actually doesn't mention it's armour. I mean, if it was called shadow helm with the exact same description people probably would combine them.
Very clear thinking. I feel it boils down to the gaming environment. For example, this would not be the interpretation at the tournaments I play. In a strict RAW setting though, absolutely.
Prince of Spires wrote:Prince with reaver bow and ring of fury might be an idea. Though I'm not sure he adds all that much to the shadow warrior unit (other than 3 S5 shots and a magic missile).
Ld 10 I guess and combat power vs targets of opportunity. Not sure what I would do with the last 25pts. There's an argument for keeping the unit's shooting within a certain range. For example, Alith Anar's S7 might not want to shoot at the same target as the SW's S3.
Prince of Spires wrote:Both are too expensive for HE characters for what they do though. I can see it work for Orcs because of the base S5 T5, which means you don't need a lot of extra power to kill stuff and still be safe. But a HE character on foot will need a magic weapon and would like a ward in there as well, simply because T3 means that a quarter of all attacks of even the lowliest creature wound you. Make that S5, and you're wounded on 2+ and only have a 4+ save left, compared to wounded on 4+ followed by a 4+. With shadow armour combining with stuff, you would only spend 25pts on the armour, leaving you with 75pts for other stuff. Something like shadow armour, ogre blade, talisman of endurance, heavy armour, shield would be a decent character. Don't the DE have an option like this?
It's a fair point. There are High Elf foot characters on which it's workable but with those there are generally better builds available (often involving Shield of Saphery). It's worth a punt on the Anointed. An Black Orc BSB with it still involves compromise, as he has to watch out for Death magic, Killing Blow, Troll Vomit etc.. The Lord is better as he can also bring a 4+ Ward and a Great Weapon but the mounted version remains superior. Sea Dragon Cloak gives Dark Elves a 5+ Scaly Skin, so 1+ AS foot characters are easy to build but it's noteworthy that you never see even these in a strong list. I guess mobility is just too important.
Prince of Spires wrote:The "issue" with the scroll is that the book just makes the loremaster so much better. It's almost made for the character. With 8 low casting value spells, rerolling 1 dice is just golden. With a big phase you really benefit from the reroll, and it turns a meh phase into an awesome one. Without a lvl 4 there you need the book to make him worth it.
In my games there always seems to come a point where there's one spell I absolutely have to stop (lack of a scroll is a key limiting factor on Daemons, thank goodness). The closest I've come to facing a Loremaster was the Slann with the same repertoire and he was very unpleasant. So without having faced Loremaster plus Book I can't with authority say that it's not worth dropping the scroll for. I remain sceptical though, offensively awesome though it may be. I've seen the Loremaster plus Archmage combo work very effectively in the ETC Coven of Light build and Seredain's armies. Swordmaster though, had success using Loremaster without Book. He didn't take a scroll either mind!

:)
Prince of Spires wrote:How would you run the SW unit to make it work? My feeling is that when you go for less ambitious, you're simply better off taking something else. You could easily swap out the SW unit for 20 WL (or something like that anyway), which is a great unit. Or 10 WL and 10 SW. But i just don't see 10 SW do all that much. They're still S3 T3 6+ save models, with 1 S6 shot each. Even replacing them with reavers with bows might give stronger results in small units.
I feel it helps to focus on how the unit combines with the rest of the army rather than in isolation. For example, 20 White Lions on their own have many vulnerabilities. Modest threats like Glade Guard, S4 Magic Missiles and Daemonettes are a big problem for them. Combining them with World Dragon solves this but ASF elves and armour-busting shooting remain issues. Then you introduce powerful characters to the unit to combat these. You've reached a main battle unit that starts to define what else you take in the army (RBT to back it up?) and the analysis continues.

To recap, a unit of 10 without characters can block Vanguarding, deploy in buildings far in advance of our lines, hunt war machines, combine with shooting buffs and RBT to kill things, remove enemy redirectors and more. The unit of 20 can do things the 10 can't and is probably a better choice for your list Rod. The 10 though are more manoeuverable and are a unit the army can afford to lose if necessary. TBH I need to write a list where this unit makes some sense.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#10 Post by fitzlock »

SpellArcher wrote: Less "The Shadow King", more "The Badass". There's something to be said for a mobile S7 Bolt Shooter that hits on 2's. I feel he might be interesting in a unit of PG with a High Magic Archmage say. So he's probably getting a 3+ Ward and the PG get -1 to be hit with shooting and Swiftstride which is golden. I suspect he can Stand and Shoot (hitting on 2's) also.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

fitzlock wrote:This is dirty and I am 100% trying this at some point.
Simply adding the High Archmage to the unit for 3++ can be quite rude. Justin Burgy won the US Masters a few years ago. He had such a unit but with multiple characters inside enjoying 3+ Wards.
SpellArcher wrote:TBH I need to write a list where this unit makes some sense.
Prince, Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone 271
Archmage, Lvl 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, 5+ Ward 305

BSB, Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Ogre Blade, Luckstone 164
Mage, Lvl 2, Life, Steed, Dispel Scroll 155

12 Helms, FC, Shields 306
31 Spears, FC, Eternal Flame 319

20 Swordmasters, FC, World Dragon 340
10 Shadow Warriors 140

Frostheart 240
3 x RBT 210
Eagle 50

2500pts
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#12 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:Ld 10 I guess and combat power vs targets of opportunity. Not sure what I would do with the last 25pts. There's an argument for keeping the unit's shooting within a certain range. For example, Alith Anar's S7 might not want to shoot at the same target as the SW's S3.
Alith Anar is already LD 10 himself :) He's that bad-ass. ;) Combat power could definitely be a thing, since AA is only S4. Then again, combat against most units would only be a last resort. And as the opponent I would focus on just killing the T3 light armour SW around him. And without ranks you're bound to lose to most things stronger than a clan rat.
SpellArcher wrote: In my games there always seems to come a point where there's one spell I absolutely have to stop (lack of a scroll is a key limiting factor on Daemons, thank goodness). The closest I've come to facing a Loremaster was the Slann with the same repertoire and he was very unpleasant. So without having faced Loremaster plus Book I can't with authority say that it's not worth dropping the scroll for. I remain sceptical though, offensively awesome though it may be. I've seen the Loremaster plus Archmage combo work very effectively in the ETC Coven of Light build and Seredain's armies. Swordmaster though, had success using Loremaster without Book. He didn't take a scroll either mind!
I think the book makes the most out of a single Loremaster magic phase. If you don't bring it then it's too simple to shut down with a level 4 dispelling (since you're only lvl2). Once you add another mage, then the dynamic changes. There will likely be more threats you need to watch out for, or even multiples of the same threat (doubly Wildform in this list for instance). Which means you sometimes have to let something through. With a lvl 4 + loremaster you're looking at a very strong magic phase, with 12 spells from all over the books. That's threatening in its own right. Though I'd probably still take the book (and a scroll) here, since being able to 2-dice many spells means your opponent has some though choices to make.

Maybe for a stronger list dropping the RBT, a SW, a PG and a sister for a lvl 1 + scroll might be the way to go. I might give him High (for the 1-6 chance of Hand of Glory), beasts or life.
fitzlock wrote:
SpellArcher wrote: Less "The Shadow King", more "The Badass". There's something to be said for a mobile S7 Bolt Shooter that hits on 2's. I feel he might be interesting in a unit of PG with a High Magic Archmage say. So he's probably getting a 3+ Ward and the PG get -1 to be hit with shooting and Swiftstride which is golden. I suspect he can Stand and Shoot (hitting on 2's) also.
This is dirty and I am 100% trying this at some point.
AA has Quick to Fire, so he can indeed stand and shoot (always....). I'm not sure it's a great idea to have him in a combat unit though. He'd still be a T3 6+ save 3W model. The 3+ ward helps, but he's still squishy and he's your general most likely. So you want to be careful with him. And the -1 to hit doens't actually add all that much. If they're 3+ ward unit, the only reason someone will shoot at them is because there are no other targets around anymore. Otherwise you'd just be wasting shots. I think a lord on foot is a better choice here.
SpellArcher wrote:TBH I need to write a list where this unit makes some sense.
It's a nice list. But the question it raises for me is if the SW really add something compared to bringing just a unit of 5. 5 block other scouts / vanguards just as well. 5 S3 shots don't do much and could be replaced by changing your core. They might be okay in buildings, though few people use them (especially not the Watchtower scenario). They could hunt warmachines and redirectors, though I'm not sure they'd win against all of them. I think I would only bring them like this if I'd regularly run into scout issues and played with buildings a lot. Against just regular scouts I'd bring one or 2 units of 5. And otherwise I would just bring archers and reavers in core and add something which can actually kill stuff instead. A Lion chariot has about an equal range when it comes to charging to clear redirectors and light units. It is 20 points cheaper, is T4 with a 4+ save, has 4 S5 and 2 S6 attacks, D6 S5 impact hits and has a narrower base for fewer return attacks. And I feel it would be a better choice here than the 10 SW.

you could even reshuffle core to bring reavers, drop the Eagle and the SW for another RBT and the WLC, for better shooting (6 S4 AP vs 10 S3), the same threat projection and still the ability to block vanguard (half the time at least) and option to hunt light stuff.

I think that's the issue with SW. They're very specialized for a role that's not commonly needed and it performs just about acceptable in a few other roles which are better done by other (often core) units. Having the larger unit + characters changes this, since it's the only way to deliver a S7 boltthrower and a loremaster in your opponent's flank, together with 20-odd shots. And 20 are only slightly less mobile, since with swift reforms you can skim around a lot of stuff.
SpellArcher wrote: It's a fair point. There are High Elf foot characters on which it's workable but with those there are generally better builds available (often involving Shield of Saphery). It's worth a punt on the Anointed. An Black Orc BSB with it still involves compromise, as he has to watch out for Death magic, Killing Blow, Troll Vomit etc.. The Lord is better as he can also bring a 4+ Ward and a Great Weapon but the mounted version remains superior. Sea Dragon Cloak gives Dark Elves a 5+ Scaly Skin, so 1+ AS foot characters are easy to build but it's noteworthy that you never see even these in a strong list. I guess mobility is just too important.
I agree. Characters are force multipliers. You need to dictate the battle and get them where you need to to make the best use of them. Which means mobility is key. It also lets you recover from errors (either in deployment or when moving) more easily. For just a simple character on foot, it becomes harder and harder to justify the cost. The 250-ish points a HE Lord on foot costs can get you a lot of interesting alternatives. I would personally rather see 20 WL on the table than that single lord. Mount him, and the dynamic changes a bit, where you can chose your battles and really punch through what you need. I've seen a few DE builds with the Sea Dragon Cloak for a BSB I think, which makes a bit more sense if you want him purely for the rerolls in your backline.

Maybe I should check with my regular opponent if he has time for a game somewhere in the near future, so I can give the 20 SW list a try. :)
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Maybe for a stronger list dropping the RBT, a SW, a PG and a sister for a lvl 1 + scroll might be the way to go. I might give him High (for the 1-6 chance of Hand of Glory), beasts or life.
Interesting. Where would you deploy him Rod?
Prince of Spires wrote:T3 6+ save 3W model. The 3+ ward helps, but he's still squishy
In my experience, even a 4+ Ward keeps three wound characters going for a surprisingly long time, 3+ would be totally fine. WS 7 means almost everything is hitting him on a 4+ or 5+ and ASF means very little gets to re-roll to hit him. There's also the Archmage nearby probably toting Apotheosis.
Prince of Spires wrote:-1 to hit doens't actually add all that much. If they're 3+ ward unit, the only reason someone will shoot at them is because there are no other targets around anymore.
To some extent. If that PG unit (which might contain further characters) is the spearhead of an attack on a Dwarf gunline for example though, he'll want to shoot it.
Prince of Spires wrote:I think a lord on foot is a better choice here.
Probably so because he can actually kill things in combat. It's also a concern that AA can't shoot if the unit Marches. The issue is, where is he good? One idea is to deploy him with a unit of Sisters and S8 Handmaiden. Add four RBT and serious shooting buffs to taste?

:)
Prince of Spires wrote:It's a nice list. But the question it raises for me is if the SW really add something compared to bringing just a unit of 5.
Firstly, the ten can take on more things in combat. Secondly, it's slightly better vs Panic tests. Obviously you get more shots, which can be duplicated by taking 2 x 5. There's a case for this re flexibility but it's harder to focus them. We can't drop both units into the same building for example. It's harder to get the ten close combat attacks into the same target.
Prince of Spires wrote:They might be okay in buildings, though few people use them (especially not the Watchtower scenario).
A substantial majority of the tournament games I've played have featured buildings. I imagine it varies a lot with clubs and gaming groups etc.. Woods are very common and while not quite as useful, -2 to be shot at starts to be very helpful.
Prince of Spires wrote:And otherwise I would just bring archers and reavers in core and add something which can actually kill stuff instead.
The thing is, the list already has plenty of things that can kill stuff, interference and harassment units not so much. It's the choice of Spears over Archers in Core that makes the SW's plausible IMHO. It's going for an adequate shooting phase, not a strong one. 3 RBT are a solid base and can sweep most of the field but being able to put ten more shots into things behind terrain or units is helpful. It also simply increases the shot count, which matters.
Prince of Spires wrote:I think that's the issue with SW. They're very specialized for a role that's not commonly needed and it performs just about acceptable in a few other roles which are better done by other (often core) units.
Arguably. I've yet to see battle reports that tested them fully though. If a player were to run them consistently in an appropriate list we might get a clearer picture.
Prince of Spires wrote:Having the larger unit + characters changes this, since it's the only way to deliver a S7 boltthrower and a loremaster in your opponent's flank, together with 20-odd shots. And 20 are only slightly less mobile, since with swift reforms you can skim around a lot of stuff.
The larger footprint may prove harder to keep out of enemy charge, magic and shooting arcs. The unit would be too big for some buildings. If it goes down it's giving up close to 1000 VP's. That said, I would very much like to see you give it a try Rod.
Prince of Spires wrote:I've seen a few DE builds with the Sea Dragon Cloak for a BSB I think, which makes a bit more sense if you want him purely for the rerolls in your backline.
Although Dark Elf Infantry can be quite destructive, they don't seem to have access to the same level of protections as High Elves, hence may be worse homes for characters. The Sea Dragon Cloak of course, enables those nasty Dark Pegasus Heroes with their 1+ Armour and 4+ Ward saves.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#14 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: Interesting. Where would you deploy him Rod?
Thinking about it some more, I would give him beasts. Wildform is always useful on any unit in that army, where even the archers might have to fight at some point. And the other spells are all actually pretty decent for a lvl1 mage. Even Flock of Doom is fine. Because on a 5+ you can 1-dice it if you want. And with 2 D6 hits, you might just get a few lucky sixes if you need them or do some damage against T3 no armour models. I would put him in either the PG, the sisters or the Archers, depending on the opponent I think. Probably the sisters. They're slightly more mobile than the archers, so you're more likely to be in range of stuff, without being in a combat unit where he'll be killed.
SpellArcher wrote:It's also a concern that AA can't shoot if the unit Marches. The issue is, where is he good?
This is definitely an issue with AA in a PG unit. He wants to shoot stuff, not be stuck in combat. And PG are there to actually fight. On the other hand, he would keep the archmage safe by pushing him to the second rank (assuming another character goes in there as well. Which suggests putting him a shooting unit might make more sense. The danger here is that with LD10 he's likely your general, which means you want to keep him central and you probably don't want him in a squishy unit which can be easily overrun by most combat units.
SpellArcher wrote: Arguably. I've yet to see battle reports that tested them fully though. If a player were to run them consistently in an appropriate list we might get a clearer picture.
The only player I remember on here who used them a lot was Headshot. He did surprisingly well with them, but that might just have been because he thought they were awesome and he played very fluff games. I've only tried them a couple of times, and then only 5. And those always did nothing at all. Though I agree that might just be becayse I didn't know how to use them. After all, DE players used Shades a lot. And though those are a lot better than SW, it should mean something, right.

I'll definitely give this list a try next time I play 2500pts. I can probably even squeeze it into 2400pts I think.

I'm wondering if replacing the PG with more SW would make sense. As in, bring 40 or 45, split them in 3 or so units and split the characters between them. You would end up with a highly mobile force that's difficult to pin down. I'd probably drop the archers for more SH in core then, to add to the mobile theme. It would only also be s3 all the way through. Which admittedly is an issue. But it might be fun.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#15 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Even Flock of Doom is fine. Because on a 5+ you can 1-dice it if you want. And with 2 D6 hits, you might just get a few lucky sixes if you need them or do some damage against T3 no armour models.
Underrated spell. I once cast it on a Bloodthirster, forgetting it was the special one with MR 3! Did my opponent fail his 2+ Ward save? Yes, yes he did! Can also be good for putting a wound on a war machine.
Prince of Spires wrote:They're slightly more mobile than the archers, so you're more likely to be in range of stuff, without being in a combat unit where he'll be killed.
Beasts is a funny lore because some of it has decent range and some absolutely doesn't. The reliable sig helps a lot of course.
Prince of Spires wrote:On the other hand, he would keep the archmage safe by pushing him to the second rank (assuming another character goes in there as well.
I would usually go 7 or 8 wide to maximise attacks. The 3++ is pretty reliable on the Archmage, albeit he wouldn't want to contact Witch Elves for example.
Prince of Spires wrote:The danger here is that with LD10 he's likely your general, which means you want to keep him central and you probably don't want him in a squishy unit which can be easily overrun by most combat units.
Seriously, I'm starting to think AA with Handmaiden in Sisters makes a lot of sense, a bit like Furion's old bowline list. You take four RBT, you take shooting buffs, you take redirectors, you maybe have an interceptor unit. I can see the outline of an interesting list.
Prince of Spires wrote:After all, DE players used Shades a lot. And though those are a lot better than SW, it should mean something, right.
The strongest DE lists I've seen tend to omit Shades but not because they're bad. Thing is, once they've got their Core in, the next thing is double Warlocks, then 4 RBT, then a Lvl 4 with Scroll. After that it's tempting for them to just spam horrific fighting characters. There's a feeling amongst Wood Elf players that Scouts are clearly superior to Glade Guard, simply because they Skirmish and those don't even have BS 5!
Prince of Spires wrote:I'm wondering if replacing the PG with more SW would make sense. As in, bring 40 or 45, split them in 3 or so units and split the characters between them. You would end up with a highly mobile force that's difficult to pin down
Make it so Rod!

:)
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#16 Post by Elithmar »

SpellArcher wrote:There's a feeling amongst Wood Elf players that Scouts are clearly superior to Glade Guard, simply because they Skirmish and those don't even have BS 5!
I found this comment surprising. I’ve not played a huge amount of WE, but I’ve never really seen the point of Deepwood Scouts. Sure, if they were core, but if you’re going to use up special/rare on shooting, why not go for Waywatchers for just a couple more points (assuming you’re putting enchanted arrows on the Scouts) who are so much better and more versatile.

As for Shadow Warriors, there are some interesting ideas here about how to use them. I definitely think they’re a ‘fluffy’ choice unless you’re tailoring your whole army around a large unit/multiple units of them, maybe combined with a unit with Moranion’s Wayshard and some fast units. It would be interesting if we still had Radiant Gem to combine with Shadow Armour (which Headshot did, of course). Then there’d be the cheesy option of taking shadow and sending a pit or pendulum down the whole length of the enemy army. :P Alas…
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

Elithmar wrote:I found this comment surprising. I’ve not played a huge amount of WE, but I’ve never really seen the point of Deepwood Scouts. Sure, if they were core, but if you’re going to use up special/rare on shooting, why not go for Waywatchers for just a couple more points (assuming you’re putting enchanted arrows on the Scouts) who are so much better and more versatile.
My experience is that Wood Elf players who want to win take Waywatchers for one main reason and that is to deal with armour. Double-tap is nice but it's a side-benefit. The thing is, once you get up to about 20 you've more or less got the armour issue covered, many more are not an efficient investment. You do need a way of dealing with high Toughness though and that's where Scouts come in. Give them Hagbane arrows and that Poisoned shooting is very helpful.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#18 Post by Prince of Spires »

Elithmar wrote:combined with a unit with Moranion’s Wayshard and some fast units.
I had completely forgotten about that item. Personally I think that thing is a case of way too expensive for what it achieves, with too many limitations. 30 archers or spears ambushing is just not worth it. Especially not for 50 points + a completely character. It might work if they allowed LSG to use it, but even then you're looking at 150-ish points just to get 30 s3 t3 5+ save models + a squishy character (sine he has little room for magical items) in the flank of your opponent. I can't really think of a case where that would pay out.

I agree that high armour and high T are an issue for this list. It's partially solved by the PG, and those could potentially be replaced by BotWD WL. But it remains a weakness. I would love to bring some poisoned attacks, they would make the SW awesome (or at least awesome enough to take them). I think I'll first give this list a spin and then see how it performs.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#19 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I had completely forgotten about that item. Personally I think that thing is a case of way too expensive for what it achieves, with too many limitations. 30 archers or spears ambushing is just not worth it. Especially not for 50 points + a completely character. It might work if they allowed LSG to use it, but even then you're looking at 150-ish points just to get 30 s3 t3 5+ save models + a squishy character (sine he has little room for magical items) in the flank of your opponent. I can't really think of a case where that would pay out.
Some guys have gone with the Anointed. He brings the 4+ Ward before 100pts of magic item allowance of course and gives the 6+ Ward and 4+ vs Spells. Maybe 29 Spears with a magic standard?
Prince of Spires wrote:I agree that high armour and high T are an issue for this list. It's partially solved by the PG, and those could potentially be replaced by BotWD WL. But it remains a weakness. I would love to bring some poisoned attacks, they would make the SW awesome (or at least awesome enough to take them). I think I'll first give this list a spin and then see how it performs.
For shooting at least RBT tend to cover most HE armies' needs of course. Poisoned archers are excellent though, performed very well for me across several tournaments.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: Some guys have gone with the Anointed. He brings the 4+ Ward before 100pts of magic item allowance of course and gives the 6+ Ward and 4+ vs Spells. Maybe 29 Spears with a magic standard?
The anointed is probably the best choice, with his 4+. It's actually a fairly lovely character which has some fun possibilities. A bit like a Loremaster in that it's a budget choice. I should come up with a list with one some day.

The question then is what do the spears add in the flank of your opponent? 29 spears are just not that scary to most things. They aren't going to shift the outcome of the battle in any significant way, with the possible exception of going against gun-lines, since you can come in close. Still, without being able to charge, coming in at point blank range might not be such a good idea against a gunline. A magic standard won't do much, since you can only take one up to 25 pts on spears. Which doesn't help them fight much.

I can see a gimmicky list where you take it on an archmage (or Loremaster) and start throwing something like a purple sun down a flank. It can work, but it depends on too many things to be worth it I think. If I remember correctly these were the kinds of things people tried at the start of 8th edition, which gave it a bad name in terms of balance. That is, until people learned about them and how to deal with them. It's great if it works, but if it doesn't then you almost auto-lose the game...
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#21 Post by Elithmar »

SpellArcher wrote:My experience is that Wood Elf players who want to win take Waywatchers for one main reason and that is to deal with armour. Double-tap is nice but it's a side-benefit. The thing is, once you get up to about 20 you've more or less got the armour issue covered, many more are not an efficient investment. You do need a way of dealing with high Toughness though and that's where Scouts come in. Give them Hagbane arrows and that Poisoned shooting is very helpful.
Fair enough, I suppose I would just envisage taking a ton of Hagbane GG in core anyway. If for whatever reason you've already maxed out on core though, then scouts are definitely worth just 1 point extra per model.
Elithmar wrote:It would be interesting if we still had Radiant Gem to combine with Shadow Armour (which Headshot did, of course). Then there’d be the cheesy option of taking shadow and sending a pit or pendulum down the whole length of the enemy army. :P Alas…
Of course you could still do this, since I've now remembered the Shadow lore attribute. So, after one spell you can have your shadow archmage switch places with the shadow armour character and be in prime position on the enemy's flank. It's probably a slightly better choice than putting the archmage in the Wayshard spears as you mention, Prince, since at least you can be casting spells from turn 1.

Not sure exactly what I was thinking when I mentioned the Wayshard. But since you mention gunlines, perhaps archers are a better choice. If you can get them to come on within short range of a war machine, you should be able to get 2 or 3 wounds in the turn they come on. Although again, like with the archmage's magic, you're wasting potential shooting while waiting for them to ambush.
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Re: Making Shadow Warriors viable

#22 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:The question then is what do the spears add in the flank of your opponent? 29 spears are just not that scary to most things. They aren't going to shift the outcome of the battle in any significant way
This would need to be playtested but I'm not sure I agree Rod. We can't predict with certainty the time they'll arrive but when (if? :) ) they do they have the choice of any table edge. All that static res in the right place could be rather useful, not to mention wounds if we choose not to throw them in against good armour. Then there's the damage output of the Anointed and his ability to tank attacks from powerful enemy single models.
Prince of Spires wrote:Still, without being able to charge, coming in at point blank range might not be such a good idea against a gunline.
Most gunlines will have the artillery on the baseline. The Spears come on next to the end machine and the enemy gets one round of shooting (maybe vs hard cover because the engines are effectively behind one another) to kill 30 models. Then they contact the first one and threaten to roll up the line.
Prince of Spires wrote:A magic standard won't do much, since you can only take one up to 25 pts on spears. Which doesn't help them fight much.
In raw terms I agree, though Eternal Flame would make a big difference vs certain enemies. Swiftness is an idea to quickly get them into the fray. For general utility though it's hard to beat Gleaming Pennant for that re-roll.
Elithmar wrote:Of course you could still do this, since I've now remembered the Shadow lore attribute. So, after one spell you can have your shadow archmage switch places with the shadow armour character and be in prime position on the enemy's flank.
It's a sweet idea Eli but tricky to pull off within 18 inches?
Elithmar wrote:Fair enough, I suppose I would just envisage taking a ton of Hagbane GG in core anyway.
I've done this and it's viable. It's considered optimal though to fill Core with Trueflight because that improves shooting against virtually any target.
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