How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

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fergie76
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How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#1 Post by fergie76 »

Evening All

Returning to 8th ed High Elves for the first time since it all ended. Going in at the deep end and playing in a tournament in Sept. I am going to take three monsters, one of them being a Dragon Mage, the other a plain frostheart and an annointed on frostheart. Question, how do I protect and survive the cannons. Not just magic items but positioning scenery etc.
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RE.Lee
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#2 Post by RE.Lee »

Hi!

1) Having 3 different targets already helps.
2) Using cover, obstacles especially, is obviously a good idea.
3) Facing sideways is also a useful trick - the monster base is, after all, twice as long as it is wide.

Best of luck!
cheers, Lee

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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

Welcome Fergie!

:)
RE.Lee wrote:1) Having 3 different targets already helps.
2) Using cover, obstacles especially, is obviously a good idea.
3) Facing sideways is also a useful trick - the monster base is, after all, twice as long as it is wide.
All of this. Also, is the list full of deplyoment drops? If so you likely get to deploy the monsters after the cannon, so you can use cover better or maybe go for a straight rush. If not you'll probably get first turn which obviously helps. Getting into combat fast stops you getting shot, though obviously one you're going to lose might not be a good idea. Will you have other units that can hunt cannon? Eagles, or maybe Reavers are good unless your foe is being unusually careful where he deploys. Ironblasters or Skillcannon are too tough for this so might demand monstrous or heavy cavalry attention. It's worth bearing in mind that wings and tails don't count for targeting,which may help when using cover.

Will you have other magic as well as Fire? Movement and healing spells are good, High Magic for example has both. Light and Heavens have spells that mess with shooting. I always manage to forget Attuned to Magic at some point but it's really helpful because of the 1-in-3 chance of improving to a 4+ Ward. It's hard to equip to protect the mount though I guess Ironcurse Icon might be worth a go on the dragon. You can certainly protect the riders though, if they survive you obviously don't give up the points. Taking something from the Magic Armour list on the Dragonmage can be useful.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

It very much depends on how many cannons you think you will face.

Magic items certainly play a role in it. The charmed shield is the obvious one, giving you a 2+ ward against the first hit, which protects both the rider and the monster (which is different from protecting against wounds, where the ward only protects the rider). You can also take things like dragon armour on the dragon mage for that 2+ ward against flaming attacks, or the dragon helm for the annointed giving you the same effect. There's also the golden crown for another 2+ ward on a character against the first wound, as well as the iron curse icon which gives you a 6+ ward against war machines.

If you want to go more offensive, consider something like the ruby ring or the ring of fury. Throw enough fireballs at something and it will die eventually.

It should be noted that the dragon mage is most vulnerable (and the least important of the three...). The phoenix and annointed come with a built in 5+ and 4+ ward save (and the 5+ can improve to 4+ if you roll a 6 for winds of magic). Also, with magic resistance (2), they are fairly immune to spell damage (except for kill without save spells).

For the dragon mage, a built I've run was Dragon mage, lvl2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, golden crown (for 440 pts). He has a 3+ armour save, 6+ ward (and 2+ ward vs flaming attacks), 2+ ward against the first hit, and a 2+ ward against the first wound (which only protects the rider). It's about as durable as I could make him. And with the starlance he even packs a pretty decent punch. Give him flaming sword and fireball as spells and you've got a mobile death threat to small and medium sized targets. Remember that a lvl2 dragon mage gets a +4 to cast fire spells, which means you need a 3+ to cast a simple fireball (since a 1 and 2 always fail). Which you can attempt on 1 dice at the end of your phase.

You might consider moving one or two of those items to your annointed. I'm assuming that the annointed will be your general, which means he's more important to keep alive. I'd probably shift the charmed shield to the annointed. But perhaps this gives you an idea of the sort of magic item options you have available.

On deployment. Obstacles are great. The rulebook specifies that cannonballs stop when they hit an obstacle, so if you hide behind one you're safe for a hit. Same with buildings. Also, a cannon cannot shoot if there is any chance at all it will hit a friendly model. So positioning close to an enemy unit will prevent the cannon from shooting you.

When charging a warmachine, keep in mind that they have no base and no flank/rear. So any point you can hit will count as a legitimate charge. Which makes them hard to protect from flying models or fast cavalry. Against a lot of cannons you want to move quickly and focus on keeping them busy. For instance, if you get a great eagle in combat with a cannon, you don't need to kill it. As long as the eagle doesn't die in the first round, the cannon cannot shoot in its own shooting phase in the next round, which you can probably manage against a lot of cannons.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#5 Post by fergie76 »

Morning All

Thanks for the replies, that's exactly what I was after, it's been such a while since I played 8th ed! My High elf armies used to be core militia, or the phoenix guard/white lion blocks.

Looking forward to trying a few monsters.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

fergie76 wrote:Thanks for the replies, that's exactly what I was after, it's been such a while since I played 8th ed!
You're welcome sir.
Prince of Spires wrote:The charmed shield is the obvious one, giving you a 2+ ward against the first hit, which protects both the rider and the monster
I've not seen this interpretation before Rod. The wording on page 105 suggests separate hits to me.
Prince of Spires wrote:ring of fury
This is a great shout for the Anointed because if you get the spell off both he and the phoenix benefit from Shield of Saphery. Of course the (excellent) Other Trickster's Shard competes for that Enchanted Item slot.
Prince of Spires wrote:Dragon mage, lvl2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, golden crown (for 440 pts)
Love this!
fergie76 wrote:Looking forward to trying a few monsters.
Happy Thunderstomping.

:)
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:The charmed shield is the obvious one, giving you a 2+ ward against the first hit, which protects both the rider and the monster
I've not seen this interpretation before Rod. The wording on page 105 suggests separate hits to me.
You're probably right. Just goes to show I've not played for too long...
SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:Dragon mage, lvl2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, golden crown (for 440 pts)
Love this!
He's great fun. Don't run him solo against though targets. But he's good in tandem with other medium strength units.

I agree with the ring of fury being a great choice for the anointed. That boost in the ward save makes them very survivable against things like warmachines. Best case, they both get a 3+ ward save, which is about as durable as they come. Don't discount the Ruby ring though. With the fire lore attribute, you can have the Dragon Mage cast fireball potentially with +5 to +7 (when aimed at the same target), which can put a lot of pressure on your opponents magic phase. 3D6 S4 hits for 11+ is a good threat.
fergie76 wrote: Looking forward to trying a few monsters.
Let us know how it goes! Do you have a specific list in mind?
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#8 Post by fergie76 »

Rough idea for 3k

Lvl 4 Metal
Annointed on Frostheart
Dragon Mage
30 Spearmen FC
30 Spearmen FC
9 Silver Helms Musician
21 Archers Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers Musician
7 Swordmasters
7 Swordmasters
3 RBT's
2 Great Eagles
1 Frostheart Phoenix

When I played 8th Ed previously I used to have the white lion and phoenix guard blocks, don't wish to run those as don't have the models. Theme is a citizen levy army with monster punch and some msu detachments.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

I can't remember whether the Anointed is Ld 9 Fergie. If he is, you might want to make the Archmage your General because he'll likely be close to more of your units. You absolutely want a Battle Standard Bearer, the re-rolls are too good to omit.

Normally I'd counsel you to drop one of the Spear blocks, it's generally considered sub-optimal to take more than 25% Core. I get though, that figure availability and theme are important here. Accordingly, strongly consider taking Shadow on the Lvl 4, it brings HE Core Infantry to life. Cast The Withering and watch your shooters delete that unit. Cast Mindrazor and watch those Spears put the fear of God into just about anything.

Really like your shooting base (your Archers will love Flaming Sword of course).
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#10 Post by Seredain »

Hi Fergie,

I love the theme of your list. If only we had Total War’s Silverin Guard to flesh out those spearman armies!

I echo what SA has said. I think Shadow is a more natural fit for you if you want to field big blocks of spearmen. They need to kill stuff or else your list will be leaning too heavily on the monsters to do everything. If the spears themselves don’t kill a lot, then they will bleed a lot of kills and combat res against you. A bad round involving your spears and monsters fighting the same target might see your spears hold on steadfast, but your monsters break. Withering and Mindrazor are game changers for all those ASF attacks. I would give your archmage Book of Hoeth for powering through those big shadow spells.

The Announted is Ld 9, so you definitely do want to take a BSB and have him close enough for important combats. You have freedom before combat, however - lone monsters won’t be taking panic tests for lost wounds, and your guy causes terror.

I bet this army will look magnificent on the field.

Cheers,

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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

I agree with the others. I would make the archmage your general, since your core troops and swordmasters will need his LD more than the mosters do. And Shadow is definitely better for the archmage. than metal. I would in this list even consider swapping the RBT's for sisters of averlorn (assuming you have the models of course). 10 cost the same as 2 RBT and give about the same damage output (depending on the situation of course). But they are more mobile which lets them keep up with the army a bit more. I'm not sure if it would work, but it would be a nice experiment.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#12 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

How exactly does facing sideways help against cannons?
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

TyrrenAzureblade wrote:How exactly does facing sideways help against cannons?
Cannon enthusiasts generally aim '10 from the back', ie 10 inches from the back of the target's base. This is to ensure the ball cannot overshoot. Dragon and phoenix bases are four inches deep, so if facing the cannon the front of the base is only six inches from the target point. If sideways, the base is eight inches from the target point, increasing the chance of the ball falling short.

You can also place one monster sideways in front of another, so that it's perpendicular. This makes it very likely the ball will strike the sideways monster first, which may stop it reaching the other. For example, you might want to screen the Sun Dragon (more expensive and without a Ward save) with a Frostheart. Former England ETC Captain Dan Heelan was a great exponent of this with stegadons.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#14 Post by Prince of Spires »

SA is correct, you reduce the target area by making the bases less deep, which gives fewer rolls where the model is hit. To add to this, monster movement is not negatively affected by this. Since it's a single model you can pivot on the spot without it costing any movement. So on your turn you can simply pivot in the direction you want to go in and march there. Just make sure your pivot doesn't run you into friendly units blocking your way. This only doens't work when you want to charge something, since then you need line of sight. But that is usually a worry for later turns.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#15 Post by fergie76 »

Thank you all for the responses, it is really appreciated.

Will be playing a few games hopefully over the coming months. The tournament will be in Sept (with a bit of luck)!

To give you an idea of my thoughts on the magic support for the army. Shadow works really well with the list, my concerns are the high casting costs for the key spells given that the Lvl 4 is my only real mage (potential miscast problems) and its early game uses are a concern. I have traditionally gone for a trickle support approach to magic, casting 2/3 dice multiple spells, so I was looking for a spell lore that would support this and also help to address the spears weakness against armour etc.

Would welcome comments from all.

Painting in progress, so hope to post some pics in the near future.
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#16 Post by SpellArcher »

fergie76 wrote:When I played 8th Ed previously I used to have the white lion and phoenix guard blocks
fergie76 wrote:I have traditionally gone for a trickle support approach to magic, casting 2/3 dice multiple spells
IMHO these two things go well together because Lions and PG are already good fighters. They can confront most threats without needing strong magic support. If a buff or debuff goes through, great, if not they are solid enough to have a good go. In contrast, the elves in the latest draft need powerful help to take on strong enemy units. Spells like Enchanted Blades can be useful but they won't make enough difference to a Spear block. I found this with Wildform for example. Shadow spells will make that difference.

I really like Seredain's idea of the Book because it brings most Shadow casts back to the 2/3 dice you prefer Fergie. Enfeebling Foe and boosted Miasma become 2-dice spells. The Withering, Pit of Shades and boosted Enfeebling Foe are 3-dice. Range might be a partial issue on Turn 1 but the Remains in Play spells are always worth casting and the list has two excellent long-ranged Fire spells as additional options.

Armour is probably the single greatest problem for Spears and Metal deals with it. At a tournament though, anything can show up and many powerful armies don't rely on that. Metal isn't great against those armies. Daemons and Ogres spring to mind but there are plenty of others. Swordmasters are decent here but not in 7's so much. I could see a unit of about 20 with Archmage (I'm wondering where he would deploy with the current list) and BSB.

Looking forward to the pics!
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Re: How to protect/hide from/reduce the impact of Cannnons

#17 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think the current HE book can still function with a trickle of small spells. I think the Loremaster is a great character for this. But it really depends on the list you bring. For this to work I think you need combat units who can function without them. Which is not the case with this list. In a tournament setting, these spearmen need a serious buff to deal with enemy units. As SA mentions, I think something like +1S doesn't really do it for instance when you are up against monstrous cavalry and the like. High T, high armour save models don't care about it much.

Also, in my personal experience +1 to hit spells don't benefit HE as much as +1S buffs. With the ASF reroll you already have a high hit %. The main issue is with actually wounding (and getting past armour saves). Which makes Withering better than Enchanted blades in my opinion (with the added bonus that it's remains in play).*

*I decided to mathhammer this and my suspicion is correct. +1S is better then +1 to wound, which is better then +1 to hit (assuming S3 vs T3 5+ save models with the ASF reroll)
with +1 to hit: 20 attacks give 6.5 wounds
with +1 to wound: 20 attacks give 7.9 wounds
with +1S: 20 attacks give 9.9 wounds
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