A New Blog

All discussions related to Warhammer Fantasy Battles from 1st to 8th edition go here, including army construction, comp creation, campaign and scenarios design, etc...
Message
Author
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#421 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote:Yeah, I like this!
Thanks dude.
Seredain wrote:Rod makes some good points about redirectors. That's the inevitable weakness of these slow ground-based units with large footprints, right?
He does and much as I argue my case, it is. That's why I've tried to vary my Core by including the Arrer Boyz and Wolf Riders because otherwise you end up with combat blocks, war machines and not much else. I have one or two further ideas for more flexible troops which I haven't gone into yet.
Seredain wrote:30 goblins is big enough to hold whatever.
This is a big one. I'm content with the Core at 2400 but I'm still unsure about this Goblin unit.
Seredain wrote: How are the magic missiles?
Goblin magic has a 2d6 S3 that can be boosted to 3d6 S3. In many ways I prefer that Lore because it's more of a utility toolbox, Orc magic is more of a blunt instrument. It's much easier though to protect an Orc Shaman because the main block is a ready-made home for him.
Seredain wrote:A wildcard factor here are your mangler squigs. If I have two eagles, I'm probably trying to park them on top of the manglers to make them go boom. That's two fewer redirectors for you to worry about.
I kind of assumed you'd be looking to shoot these. Too much for that phase to do, too quickly?
Seredain wrote:I said above that your war machines could be more numerous but here you have so many big combat threats. that I think more machines would be unnecessary, not to mention too hard to defend.
Yeah, the trick is finding a blend of non-war machine threat that will actually work.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#422 Post by MasterOfNone »

SpellArcher wrote:
MasterOfNone wrote:1) Trolls. I like the idea, not the £ cost. Can you clone your unpainted ones or borrow some?
I do have the money, if necessary and I feel 18 Stone Trolls would look rather splendid! The plastic guy from the 6th Edition boxed set is readily available though and for considerably less. If I go down that route I might run that unit as Trolls and the existing unit as Stone Trolls.
Hi SA, no doubt someone our age can afford buying a unit of trolls, however when something is overpriced it still rankles with me. I retain some of the mindset from when I did not have spare money sloshing sbout.
Yesterday I found a relatively new line of trolls designed in the Oldhammer style which I think would blend well, and would not break the bank. I am thinking of getting some for myself even though I have not real need.

https://www.trollsoup.com/
Designed by Drew Williams.
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#423 Post by SpellArcher »

Incy Wincy

So I was idly leafing through the army book the other day and one entry had two Special Rules that piqued my interest. 'Thick Skinned' and 'Poisoned Attacks'. The entry in question was the Gigantic Spider. This is a Monstrous Beast, S4 T4, W3 A3. It is of course a mount, for either a goblin hero or lord. Now goblins are of course not the most promising raw material to work with. Their statlines are just worse than orcs. Happily, they're cheaper so maybe I could build a character that would be cost-effective and fill some gaps that the army currently has.

Such a character would be relatively well-protected, so durable against archery, magic missiles and in combat. He'd be M7 Swiftstride, not amazing but faster than any combat element I currently have. He'd be vulnerable to RBT but could temporarily join a unit for protection, for example giving the Trolls some extra leadership. Against cannon, he'd have the option of a 2+ Fireward, a 4+ Ward and/or sheltering behind the Trolls. These factors, plus the option of a Magic Weapon mean he could make a very useful counter to Hexwraiths, currently a big issue for me.

The first rider option is a Goblin Big Boss. He can equip with Light Armour and Shield if required, so a starting armour save of 3+. This can reach 2+ with Enchanted Shield but that only does one thing with the Magic Armour Slot. Dragonhelm would give him the 2+ Fireward as well. Alternatively, I could buy him some magical heavy armour, potentially getting up to a 4+ Ward but that would eat all the allowance and force him to rely on a mundane Great Weapon (nerfing the AS) or Spear. Magic sword options include the Sword of Might and the Biting Blade (I'd want that Armour Piercing). More expensive weapons probably nerf his protection too much.

1) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Light Armour, Shield, Biting Blade, 5+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 129

This guy is almost immune to Flaming cannon, Hexwraiths etc.. He has 2+ AS and 5+ Ward, workable in combat. He only has Strength 4 attacks but three of those are Magical AP (vs Ethereals) and the others Poisoned (vs high Toughness). He may be spread slightly too thin and not be quite good enough in combat but he's interesting.

2) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Spear, Shield, 4+ Ward Armour 129

So this dude brings the 4+ Ward, obviously great for general survivability. He does though lose the Fireward (and consequent mobility in some match-ups) and the anti-Ethereal capability. I feel 129 is a reasonable spend, given the character does things my army currently can't do. I can of course spend more points and do those things better. The Warboss has higher WS, A, Ld and the 100pt magic item allowance:

3) Goblin Warboss, Gigantic Spider, Shield, Ogre Blade, 4+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 213

So the best of both worlds. He also steps up to 4 S6 attacks and Ld 8. The latter makes him a more viable Troll-friend and just generally happier to run around the battlefield, especially considering he's immune to Fear. I haven't done the maths yet but I suspect he might be able to hunt Skillcannon and in general tackle tougher combats than his hero-level equivalent. At lower points games he might be a bit of a luxury but at 3000 he could be worth the spend.

This remains very much a thought-experiment at this stage so I'd be grateful for any input!

Edit: Thanks MoN, good spot! I've seen these on eBay, will investigate further.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#424 Post by MasterOfNone »

SpellArcher wrote:Incy Wincy

So I was idly leafing through the army book the other day and one entry had two Special Rules that piqued my interest. 'Thick Skinned' and 'Poisoned Attacks'. The entry in question was the Gigantic Spider. This is a Monstrous Beast, S4 T4, W3 A3. It is of course a mount, for either a goblin hero or lord. Now goblins are of course not the most promising raw material to work with. Their statlines are just worse than orcs. Happily, they're cheaper so maybe I could build a character that would be cost-effective and fill some gaps that the army currently has.

Such a character would be relatively well-protected, so durable against archery, magic missiles and in combat. He'd be M7 Swiftstride, not amazing but faster than any combat element I currently have. He'd be vulnerable to RBT but could temporarily join a unit for protection, for example giving the Trolls some extra leadership. Against cannon, he'd have the option of a 2+ Fireward, a 4+ Ward and/or sheltering behind the Trolls. These factors, plus the option of a Magic Weapon mean he could make a very useful counter to Hexwraiths, currently a big issue for me.

The first rider option is a Goblin Big Boss. He can equip with Light Armour and Shield if required, so a starting armour save of 3+. This can reach 2+ with Enchanted Shield but that only does one thing with the Magic Armour Slot. Dragonhelm would give him the 2+ Fireward as well. Alternatively, I could buy him some magical heavy armour, potentially getting up to a 4+ Ward but that would eat all the allowance and force him to rely on a mundane Great Weapon (nerfing the AS) or Spear. Magic sword options include the Sword of Might and the Biting Blade (I'd want that Armour Piercing). More expensive weapons probably nerf his protection too much.

1) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Light Armour, Shield, Biting Blade, 5+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 129

This guy is almost immune to Flaming cannon, Hexwraiths etc.. He has 2+ AS and 5+ Ward, workable in combat. He only has Strength 4 attacks but three of those are Magical AP (vs Ethereals) and the others Poisoned (vs high Toughness). He may be spread slightly too thin and not be quite good enough in combat but he's interesting.

2) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Spear, Shield, 4+ Ward Armour 129

So this dude brings the 4+ Ward, obviously great for general survivability. He does though lose the Fireward (and consequent mobility in some match-ups) and the anti-Ethereal capability. I feel 129 is a reasonable spend, given the character does things my army currently can't do. I can of course spend more points and do those things better. The Warboss has higher WS, A, Ld and the 100pt magic item allowance:

3) Goblin Warboss, Gigantic Spider, Shield, Ogre Blade, 4+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 212

So the best of both worlds. He also steps up to 4 S6 attacks and Ld 8. The latter makes him a more viable Troll-friend and just generally happier to run around the battlefield, especially considering he's immune to Fear. I haven't done the maths yet but I suspect he might be able to hunt Skillcannon and in general tackle tougher combats than his hero-level equivalent. At lower points games he might be a bit of a luxury but at 3000 he could be worth the spend.

This remains very much a thought-experiment at this stage so I'd be grateful for any input!

Edit: Thanks MoN, good spot! I've seen these on eBay, will investigate further.
This is very interesting stuff! I have also been thinking about a goblin on a mid-sized spidet (mid-sized as in between arachnarok and a normal spider.... still a monstrous nount).
Those are very interesting builds, I will see if there is any scope to introduce something similar in my own list.

With a base of the same size as the trolls, and the trolls being monstrous, can this character be targeted if he is in a unit of trolls?

Re: the miniatures, I also found them first on eBay. Buying directly from the seller's own website does not make a difference in terms of cost.
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#425 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:Those are very interesting builds, I will see if there is any scope to introduce something similar in my own list.
I'd be keen to see what you come up with MoN! I kind of want to include The Other Trickster's Shard on the Lord build, especially seeing as the Trolls wouldn't be nerfed by it at all. Best I can see is 4+ Ward, Ogre Blade, OTS but that loses the Fireward and the 2+ save. I'm also wondering about Great Weapons but again the 2+ save becomes 3+ and you lose the Magic Weapon vs Ethereals.
MasterOfNone wrote:With a base of the same size as the trolls, and the trolls being monstrous, can this character be targeted if he is in a unit of trolls?
The Trolls are on 40 x 40 while he's on 50 x 50. I know this because GW still sell the old model on that size base! He wouldn't get Look out Sir vs cannon because he's not the same Unit Type as the Trolls, Monstrous Cavalry vs Monstrous Infantry. That said, BS shooting can't pick him out because each hit gets allocated by us, so a single RBT bolt just gets put on a Troll. Flank shots might be an issue.
MasterOfNone wrote:Re: the miniatures, I also found them first on eBay. Buying directly from the seller's own website does not make a difference in terms of cost.
I think some of them would fit my army well and I love the guy with the sack!
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: A New Blog

#426 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:
1) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Light Armour, Shield, Biting Blade, 5+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 129

This guy is almost immune to Flaming cannon, Hexwraiths etc.. He has 2+ AS and 5+ Ward, workable in combat. He only has Strength 4 attacks but three of those are Magical AP (vs Ethereals) and the others Poisoned (vs high Toughness). He may be spread slightly too thin and not be quite good enough in combat but he's interesting.

2) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Spear, Shield, 4+ Ward Armour 129

So this dude brings the 4+ Ward, obviously great for general survivability. He does though lose the Fireward (and consequent mobility in some match-ups) and the anti-Ethereal capability. I feel 129 is a reasonable spend, given the character does things my army currently can't do. I can of course spend more points and do those things better. The Warboss has higher WS, A, Ld and the 100pt magic item allowance:

3) Goblin Warboss, Gigantic Spider, Shield, Ogre Blade, 4+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 213

So the best of both worlds. He also steps up to 4 S6 attacks and Ld 8. The latter makes him a more viable Troll-friend and just generally happier to run around the battlefield, especially considering he's immune to Fear. I haven't done the maths yet but I suspect he might be able to hunt Skillcannon and in general tackle tougher combats than his hero-level equivalent. At lower points games he might be a bit of a luxury but at 3000 he could be worth the spend.
Guy #1 doesn't need the light armour (since he already has magical heavy armour), which makes him 2 points cheaper.

I like #2 the least. That one is mainly a very expensive roadblock. 3 wounds, 2+ 4++ means he takes a while to kill, but he won't achieve all that much by himself. It mainly feels like he'd be a babysitter for the trolls to make sure they get where they need to be to kill stuff.

#1 is more versatile. 3W, 2+ 5++ is still tough enough to hold up the minor threats of your opponent. But the magic weapon makes him a lot more dangerous and versatile. He can still go in the trolls, but he can also charge out on his own agains smaller units or to get a flank somewhere. He's more of a swiss army knife than #2, and I like that for the points. One thing to look out for when running him on his own is that you don't trigger army wide panic when he gets destroyed. Your Orcs and Troll will be fine. But you don't want your goblins and warmachines running because a disposable unit was killed.

#3 is very different altogether. at almost twice the points of the others he's no longer a "throw-away" model. He's more dangerous still, but any ranked unit will still wear him down and he still can't go toe to toe with anything major. He should be useful, but I'm wondering if by being 100 pts more expensive he doesn't also become more of a liability. He needs to pull a lot of weight for 213pts to pay off. It's a bit the same reason why I'm careful with HE characters unless they fill a very clear role

There's also the light version of him you could consider:
Goblin Warboss, Gigantic Spider, Shield, Biting Blade, 5+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 157

You still get the extra point of WS, I, A and LD, without going overboard on points.

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#427 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Guy #1 doesn't need the light armour (since he already has magical heavy armour), which makes him 2 points cheaper.
Good catch Rod, thanks.
Prince of Spires wrote:One thing to look out for when running him on his own is that you don't trigger army wide panic when he gets destroyed. Your Orcs and Troll will be fine. But you don't want your goblins and warmachines running because a disposable unit was killed.
What I'm learning is not to leave Ld 6 units we care about outside 12" of the General and BSB. So the goblin infantry in this case. As I read page 110 of the main rulebook, the war machines would not flee due to failed Panic, instead losing their next shooting phase. Annoying but perhaps not disastrous. My main concern might be the Wolf Riders. Even with Gitilla's Ld 7, they don't want to be taking any more Panic tests than strictly necessary.
Prince of Spires wrote:But the magic weapon makes him a lot more dangerous and versatile.
That's what I thought but on reflection I think it would only be especially useful against Hexwraiths. These are bad news for my list, no question but the goblin shamen would definitely help a lot there. I've been looking at Dark Elf Dark Pegasus riders, which are structurally similar. Every build I've seen comes with a 4+ Ward or better. This can't be combined with a 2+ Fireward (50pt limit) so none of them have this, despite how useful it would be against Skillcannon or Searing Doom for example. They all carry lances but I'm starting to think the Spider Rider would be better off with a Great Weapon because he doesn't need to preserve ASF. It took me a while to work out that although he'd go from 2+ Armour to 3+ in combat, he'd keep the 2+ vs shooting and magic. Alternatively, he could take the straight 4+ Ward and sacrifice a point of armour for the Charmed Shield. This might enable greater mobility in the face of cannon for example:

4) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Great Weapon, Shield, 4+ Ward Armour 131

5) Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Great Weapon, Light Armour, Charmed Shield, 4+ Ward 131
Prince of Spires wrote:Goblin Warboss, Gigantic Spider, Shield, Biting Blade, 5+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem 157
This is interesting, especially as I'm wondering whether Ld 8 might be necessary. I make it 168 as the Spider itself and the Shield cost more for a Lord, your point about cost-effectiveness stands though. In the light of that and what I typed above, I'm now wondering about this:

6) Goblin Warboss, Gigantic Spider, Shield, Great Weapon, 4+ Ward Armour, Dragonbane Gem, The Other
Trickster's Shard 194

On the pricey side but I'd be getting almost all the functionality I'm after. 4 S6 plus 3 S4 Poison (and maybe a S4 Stomp), all benefiting from the OTS is quite respectable. The two Ward saves help him move more freely. 3+ AS in combat is unfortunate but again the Wards help a lot. Food for thought.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#428 Post by MasterOfNone »

How realistic is this discussion about the Goblin on the gigantic spider?
What I mean is you have only two items that give 4++ and most likely those should go to the general and the BSB.
Which of these should get a 5++ to let the Goblin have the 4++?

If the Goblin can have 5++ at the most (and most likely the armour, since your lvl 4 will also want 5++) then you could have something like this:

1) Goblin Warboss, gigantic spider, 5++ armour, shield, dragonbane gem, OTS, Sword of antiheroes 203
This would make an excellent wizard killer and could take on almost any hero (not lords)

2) Goblin Warboss, gigantic spider, 5++ armour, shield great weapon, dragonbane gem, OTS, 179
Basically like yours but with 5++ instead of 4++ and 15 points cheaper.

3) Goblin Big Boss, gigantic spider, 5++ talisman, light armour, charmed shield, great weapon, OTS, 133
Cheaper version of #2, but overall quite fragile
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#429 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:What I mean is you have only two items that give 4++ and most likely those should go to the general and the BSB.
Fair point MoN. If I'm honest though, I'm not happy with how any of my current characters are equipped. They feel too 'safe' and not optimised. My first thought is to go Armour of Silvered Steel and perhaps Luckstone on the BSB, given that he is also Toughness 5.
MasterOfNone wrote:1) Goblin Warboss, gigantic spider, 5++ armour, shield, dragonbane gem, OTS, Sword of antiheroes 203
This would make an excellent wizard killer and could take on almost any hero (not lords)
My feeling is that this Sword is best on a support character in a combat block. A fighting Lord in such a block needs 'always-on' Strength bonuses because he may have to deal with Monsters, Monstrous Cav or other things which are not characters. I think the Spider Rider also really needs Strength because S4 base is not going to be enough in many cases. He might be able to get into combat with enemy characters and he might not.
MasterOfNone wrote:2) Goblin Warboss, gigantic spider, 5++ armour, shield great weapon, dragonbane gem, OTS, 179
Basically like yours but with 5++ instead of 4++ and 15 points cheaper.
My gut is telling me that this Warboss needs the 4++. So many armies have artillery that can one-shot him, I've lost count of the number of games in which Seredain has pulled this off, often against better-protected Chaos characters for example. Constrast with the BSB who can't be targeted by RBT and has Look out Sir vs cannon.
MasterOfNone wrote:3) Goblin Big Boss, gigantic spider, 5++ talisman, light armour, charmed shield, great weapon, OTS, 133
Cheaper version of #2, but overall quite fragile
If I really can't spare him the 4+ Ward armour, this looks interesting, though there's a case for taking 5+ Ward Armour and making the shield mundane.
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: A New Blog

#430 Post by Prince of Spires »

Maybe "we" are approaching this the wrong way round. I think all of those buils could work, but they all function slightly differently. I think you should first determine the role you see for this character. What do you hope he accomplishes (and against which kinds of opponents). Form follows function after all.

Also, he doesn't operate alone. So which characters does he team up with and what synergy do they potentially have (and what equipment can't they share...)?
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#431 Post by MasterOfNone »

The previous two posts both contain very valid points.
I guess you could try to do a few test games...
As an aside, I have not resisted temptation and on a whim today I ordered eight of the trollsoup.com trolls.
I am almost regretting the impulsive purchase, who knows when I'll have the time to paint them.

Simone
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: A New Blog

#432 Post by Prince of Spires »

MasterOfNone wrote: As an aside, I have not resisted temptation and on a whim today I ordered eight of the trollsoup.com trolls.
I am almost regretting the impulsive purchase, who knows when I'll have the time to paint them.
The best way to get over the regret is to paint them up as fast as possible and share some pictures of them here on the site ;) You don't need sleep, right?

Oh, and play a few games with them of course. And take more pictures of those...
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#433 Post by MasterOfNone »

Prince of Spires wrote:
MasterOfNone wrote: As an aside, I have not resisted temptation and on a whim today I ordered eight of the trollsoup.com trolls.
I am almost regretting the impulsive purchase, who knows when I'll have the time to paint them.
The best way to get over the regret is to paint them up as fast as possible and share some pictures of them here on the site ;) You don't need sleep, right?

Oh, and play a few games with them of course. And take more pictures of those...
Encouragement, that's what I need!
They may be bumped up in the priority order.
But first, I need to complete my two Anointeds and two doom divers.
Oh, and also the homemade mangler squig. I wanted to make two bases but perhaps I'll do only one for now.
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#434 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:I ordered eight of the trollsoup.com trolls.
Well done Simone! I'd be very interested to hear your first impressions when they arrive.
Prince of Spires wrote: I think you should first determine the role you see for this character.
I'm going to deal with this Rod by first taking a more 'meta' view of the situation.


Orc Warlord goes Recrootin'

So there's this orc. Life is life. He plays gobbo football, he scrapes together an army, fairly routine stuff. Only he can't quite get enough greenskins together so he's forced to rely on some daemons to help him out. Now the chaos lads are good in a scrap and they don't need paying but they're not really 'proper orcy'. So our budding Warlord wants to replace them with his own guys. Trouble is, they're Beasts of Nurgle who are dead 'ard, quite fast and don't need him shouting at them all the time to tell them what to do. Who can he bring in instead?

First option is Black Orcs. Warlord doesn't like them much, the gits but they fight OK and seem to know what to do. They're a bit slow though. The shaman has a spell he says can speed them up a bit but maybe there's better things for him to be doing and you never know when a big toad or whatever will sit on your magic and squash it. Second up are the Boar Boyz. These are plenty fast, if a little bit flaky. Warlord could always get one of his bosses to ride along and keep them honest but that's bound to cost an arm and a leg. They reckon they're big and bad but Warlord isn't so sure.

Last up is Trolls. Warlord already has a mob of these lads and he loves them. They fight good, they're fast enough and so long as he shouts at them, they do what he wants them to do. Trouble is, a second mob might need to work outside of shoutin' range. Warlord knows this spider-riding git who could keep up with them, though gobbos don't shout as good as orcs. What else is the spider lad good for? Well, he can run round the back and smash up cannonz or maybe help the Wolf Riders out. Spiders' hard to kill, so he can catch those fast gits that get round yer sides and beat 'em up.

Warlord's still not sure but...


Orc Warboss, Basha's Axe, Charmed Shield, 4+ Ward 215
Orc Lvl 4, 5+ Ward, Dispel Scroll 255

Black Orc BSB, Armour of Silvered Steel, Luckstone 165
Gitilla 110
Goblin Big Boss, Gigantic Spider, Spear, Shield, 4+ Ward Armour 129

27 Big'Uns, FC, Shields, +1 Ld Standard 293
10 Archers, Musician 80
10 Archers, Musician 80
9 Wolf Riders, FC, Spear, Shortbow, Shield 147

8 Trolls 280
8 Trolls 280
2 Bolt Shooters 70

2 Mangler Squigs 130
Stone Thrower 85
Doom Diver 80

2399pts
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#435 Post by MasterOfNone »

Cool fluff...
Can you elaborate on the decision to use a spear instead of great weapon? Is it because of better AS in H2H combat, or because of initiative?
Also why 2400 pts? I thought 2500 was more common. Is it because you are doing a 3000 pts army and 600 are for allies?
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#436 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:Can you elaborate on the decision to use a spear instead of great weapon? Is it because of better AS in H2H combat, or because of initiative?
To get under the 2400pt limit, it's 2pts cheaper!

:)
MasterOfNone wrote:Also why 2400 pts? I thought 2500 was more common. Is it because you are doing a 3000 pts army and 600 are for allies?
At the moment I can't make a decent O&G army at 2400 without Allies. I can see the Core though and building towards 2400 is a good short-term target. I have to finish my Troll and then got a stone thrower to do. After that I pretty much have to decide whether to take the second Troll unit, Black Orcs or Boar Boyz. There may be other sensible O&G options but I can't see them. Of course I might be able to just keep using the Daemons but I'd rather not if I've got a choice.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#437 Post by MasterOfNone »

If you had to choose between the goblin big boss on gigantic spider vs two mangler squigs, which one would you choose?
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#438 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:If you had to choose between the goblin big boss on gigantic spider vs two mangler squigs, which one would you choose?
Manglers, no question. They're that no-brainer choice every army has.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#439 Post by MasterOfNone »

SpellArcher wrote:
MasterOfNone wrote:If you had to choose between the goblin big boss on gigantic spider vs two mangler squigs, which one would you choose?
Manglers, no question. They're that no-brainer choice every army has.
OK I really need to work hard to make then...

In different news, my trolls have arrived today and I really like them.
I would recommend them. Each comes with an additional random head.
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#440 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:In different news, my trolls have arrived today and I really like them.
I would recommend them. Each comes with an additional random head.
Excellent! Any chance you could post a photo here MoN? Maybe your favourite guy or some detail that's not obvious from Trollsoup's website?
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#441 Post by MasterOfNone »

SpellArcher wrote:Excellent! Any chance you could post a photo here MoN? Maybe your favourite guy or some detail that's not obvious from Trollsoup's website?
I think as long as the miniatures are unassembled and unpainted, you are better served by the pictures on the trollsoup website.
I will post though while I paint, only it will be some time before I start.
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: A New Blog

#442 Post by Prince of Spires »

It looks like a decent list. The main experimental bit is the spider character I think. I'm curious to see if he delivers his worth, or if he's simply a very expensive command model for a unit of Trolls. Replacing him with a cheap lvl2 goblin caster would be the alternative I think. A lvl 2 night goblin shamans with magic mushrooms and some stuff comes in at around the same price, but would give the army a very different dynamic. A much more reliable and versatile magic phase vs more freedom of movement and board control.

Did we already discuss boar boyz vs trolls? 280pts gets you 15-ish boys, maybe a couple fewer if you give them some fancy stuff. Something like 10 with full command and the razor banner. They're a lot less hard-hitting and durable than the trolls, but they are more free (freeer? man, english is weird...) in their movement as well as faster.

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#443 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:I will post though while I paint, only it will be some time before I start.
Looking forward to it MoN.
Prince of Spires wrote:A lvl 2 night goblin shamans with magic mushrooms and some stuff comes in at around the same price, but would give the army a very different dynamic.
The first problem with goblin magic is where to keep the shaman. An orc is fine in the Big'Uns because he has the right footprint and is more durable, the goblin not so much. Wolf Riders are a bit lightweight and prone to failing Panic tests. (Night) Goblin infantry are usual but if we keep these safely behind the line the shaman has a spell range problem. They can be deployed in the battle line but then they need to load up on extra protection to have any chance of keeping the caster alive. There is at least one more, unusual, option.
Prince of Spires wrote:A much more reliable and versatile magic phase
The problem with goblin magic is the limited Signature spell. Normally this would steer me away from taking a single lvl 2 but the other spells are pretty much all good. I also like the Attribute because it messes with the enemy's planning.


Boar Boyz Revisited

I've been doing a lot of thinking Rod about the unit choice issue outlined in my previous big post. The main problem with the second Troll unit is the Trolls - Big'Uns - Trolls deployment it pretty much mandates, as we've all discussed. While this can sometimes push as Seredain described above, it's a bit limited. The obvious alternative is to load up on war machines and sit. At this 3000pts tournament though, I'd still be restricted to double Doom Diver, double stone thrower. Six bolt shooters could be added but I'm not sure it's all that. Again, Allied cannon might be possible but we're getting further and further away from the army I want to field. Black Orcs would at least (with Gleaming Pennant) be able to operate independently but M4 is a massive issue in a probable meta of big flyers and cannon.

The first problem with Boar Boyz is the Ld 7. I believe a unit of 10 needs the Gleaming Pennant because at some point it's going to fail a test. With spears, shields and full command that comes out at 240pts. This seems a bad value though, when for the same cost an Empire player can get four Demigryphs that eat my unit alive. I could add an orc hero but that takes the cost over 300pts. Any more character spend is just too much in a unit with no Ward IMHO.

The interesting thing is that fighting orc characters on boars can actually work. An orc lord on foot is pretty much limited to a 4+ Armour Save and even a Black Orc (because he comes with Heavy Armour) only gets to 3+. Armour of Silvered Steel is available for a 2+ but it's hard to build a character that makes sense with it in other ways. For my best fighters, this is no good. The problem is compounded by being stuck in an M4 block. In fact, I've spent a fair amount of time trying to stop strong enemy units from contacting them! Clearly something is wrong here. I still like the orc lvl 4 (with a 4++) in this block because it's a good location for his spellcasting and the unit really benefits from his Ld8. With Gleaming Pennant they'd be fine, even if I removed the General and BSB.

An Orc hero or lord on boar can get to a 2+ AS but a Black Orc, uniquely in this army, can reach that magic 1+. The Lord can be equipped similarly to a High Elf Prince. He doesn't have ASF but he does have certain Strength advantages. He also Quells Animosity and of course brings WS 7. The first issue if I go for armour is vulnerability to (Death) snipes. So it kind of makes sense to include an orc shaman in the unit for MR 3. It's also possible to almost guarantee that shaman gets the crucial re-roll to hit spell. So we maybe have something like this:

Black Orc Warboss, Boar, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon 287
Black Orc BSB, Boar, Shield, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone 183
Orc Lvl 2, Boar, MR 3 161
12 Boar Boyz, Spear, Shield, FC, +1 Ld Standard 290

At 921 points this is an expensive unit. It's also a good one though and I always lean towards spending too much on good units that actually do stuff versus cheaper, mediocre ones that don't so much. M7 is not amazing but it has Swiftstride so is far faster and more flexible than almost any other fighting unit in the book. As mentioned, the characters lack re-rolls but have +1 S first round from Choppas and the Lord is base S8. The unit still probably needs to remain within 12" of the Trolls most of the time but moving the foot Shaman out to give those Ld 8 is a tactical option. For reference, that guy would carry 4+ Ward, Ruby Ring, Scroll. I'm not so worried about blowing the Big'Uns up if my General and BSB are elsewhere.

The interesting thing is, this is just a prototype build. There are other, stranger ways I can go with this unit.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#444 Post by SpellArcher »

Image
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: A New Blog

#445 Post by Seredain »

SA,

I really like the 2400 list. We’ve spoken before about the massive combat power you’ve got with your main unit and double trolls. The combined manglers and war machines is a lot of secondary DPS and floods the board with targets for enemy shooting / light units, too. We spoke before about the possibility that an elf player might have to spend his chaff parking on top of the manglers. You’re right that he’s probably rather shoot them. But getting rid of them is important enough that plenty of generals would rather not take the risk. Very few units can afford to take a full mangler hit if they’re harbouring characters. All your war machines become lethal once LOS drops off. Cumulatively it’s a lot of threat from som cheap units.

Back to the trolls. Keeping these online is key to your success I think. If one drops off for some reason (eg it gets redirected while the other units need to charge), it’s probably stuck doing nothing with only Ld 4. That would be potentially fatal. So having the spider warboss is I think something you should try. Worst comes to worse he can hunt light stuff or get flank charges. In and of himself, maybe he isn’t worth the points. But baby-sitting your trolls might by itself be important enough.

The boar boy bus.

I love it. And not because I have a thing about cavalry buses. I think you’ve got upon the crux of your choice which is: defend a cloud of war machines, or advance? If you pick either of these things you should concentrate your points on that thing. And for your list I think advancing is better. The problem for this army defending a load of war machines is that it’s units have massive footprints and, away from the bubble, mediocre leadership. The trolls have no musicians. So I don’t see this army making a success of twisting and turning in different directions in response to fast units swarming your war machines. Ive seen orc armies played this way never get their main unit into combat. High elf armies often suffer from this problem too (white lion horde, archer core etc).

The alternative is to go full attack. Your main units want to stay together for leadership, then hit stuff. I think that means picking a target you want to kill and going after it. The boar boy bus makes this advance terrifying - all of your combat units are killer priority targets. But with its speed and leadership it also gives your list some responsiveness and flexibility that your infantry won’t have. Either way, your opponents will often have to / feel they have to throw chaff under these buses. If they do that, your war machines and manglers have fewer threats without you even needing to defend them. Go for it!

I think it’s a toss up between +1ld and gleaming pennant, but mathematically I think you’ve made the right choice going for the +1.

Cheers,

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#446 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote:I really like the 2400 list.
Thanks Mr S.
Seredain wrote:Back to the trolls. Keeping these online is key to your success I think. If one drops off for some reason (eg it gets redirected while the other units need to charge), it’s probably stuck doing nothing with only Ld 4.
Absolutely. Managing two units of Trolls looks very restrictive. Increasingly, I'm realising one unit is a real bind. Babysitting them all game with a Ld 8 character is not reliable all-comers because it's a 1-in-3 of failing and is vulnerable to cannon. Accordingly, the General (BSB is less critical) needs to stay within 12", probably in an Infantry block. If the (M6) Trolls charge, this is usually fine because the orcs can move up afterwards to maintain 12". General in Boar Boyz is more problematic. If they charge (M7 Swiftstride) the Trolls could well be out of 12" when they need to move up in support. Stupidity doesn't apply in the enemy's turn or in our own combat phase but not being able to make a crucial move in our turn could prove fatal.
Seredain wrote:The problem for this army defending a load of war machines is that it’s units have massive footprints
This is a really good point, compounded by needing to build units substantial enough to cope with 3000pts.
Seredain wrote:But with its speed and leadership it also gives your list some responsiveness and flexibility that your infantry won’t have.
Exactly, the previous lack of a fast, flexible combat unit is killing me. I'm far from sure about this but:


3000pts

Black Orc Warboss, Boar, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon 287
Orc Lvl 4, 4+ Ward, Ruby Ring, Scroll 295

Black Orc BSB, Boar, Shield, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone 183
Orc Lvl 2, Boar, MR 3 161
Gitilla 110
Snagla Grobspit 115

29 Big'Uns, FC, Shields, Gleaming Pennant 301
10 Archers, Musician 80
10 Archers, Musician 80
9 Wolf Riders, FC, Spear, Shortbow, Shield 147
9 Spider Riders, FC 147

11 Boar Boyz, Spear, Shield, FC, +1 Ld Standard 270
12 Trolls 420
3 Bolt Shooters 105

2 Mangler Squigs 130
Stone Thrower 85
Doom Diver 80

2996

Thoughts most welcome.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#447 Post by SpellArcher »

The gobbos have stolen another war machine:

Image
MasterOfNone
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: A New Blog

#448 Post by MasterOfNone »

Hand of Gork is great to move units around and help the trolls remain within the general's bubble.
Can be dispelled though...

PS: I know that crew, I also have it!
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: A New Blog

#449 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:PS: I know that crew, I also have it!
I had them left over from Lead Belcher. Citadel were quite generous with crew numbers in those days!
MasterOfNone wrote:Hand of Gork is great to move units around and help the trolls remain within the general's bubble.
Can be dispelled though...
It looks pretty useful, don't think I've actually cast it yet.


Back to Trolls

As argued earlier, I've come back to the idea of a fielding my Trolls in a single unit. Tools such as Hand of Gork should help but I now feel one unit is quite enough to worry about. Up until now I've fielded this in an 8, to achieve a full 24 attacks against most units. With Initiative 1 though, this rarely happens. Twice I've had the enemy kill a couple of Trolls first, which also nixes the second rank for Steadfast purposes and has led to them breaking. Initially I thought the solution would be to field 9 in a 3 x 3 formation. This keeps Steadfast for longer, though not against enemies who can maintain two ranks themselves. It also means the unit only kicks out 18 attacks.

Although it's costly, I now believe my solution to be a unit of 12, 4 wide and 3 deep. Even if the enemy shoot off a couple of models before combat and then kill two more before they strike, the unit preserves those 24 attacks. It's more open to being combo-charged but that's not always easy for the enemy to arrange. In-game experience strongly suggests to me that it's really important for them to generate as much active combat res as possible, even with potentially Ld 10 re-rollable to rely on. 420 points is a lot out of 2500 say but I feel it's workable.

At 3000pts there's a tempting alternative, the Horde. 18 Trolls, 6 wide and 3 deep, 630 points. It's less manoeuvrable and of course, reduces even more your other options. Psychologically it's going to draw the enemy's attention, either they'll try to avoid it, or try to kill it. I think the key would be to have a credible alternative threat to take advantage of the enemy's attention being fixed on the Trolls. A focused foe could kill it but it wouldn't be easy and the Horde lays down an awful lot of smack.
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: A New Blog

#450 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:The gobbos have stolen another war machine:
It looks like it was stolen very recently. It's still pretty clean and looks like it might actually work...
Looks great.

About the trolls. I like the reasoning. Having them in 2 units causes all kinds of issues, which can be mitigated, but it does make your battle plan easier to predict and counter. The one downside to having them all in one unit is that it makes them more of a target for magic. Things like pit of shades or purple sun will definitely wreck your unit. Make sure to bring your scroll ;)

A unit of 12 will work. You could also consider 10 in a 4-4-2 formation. It gives you 9 wounds before you lose attacks and 12 before you lose the ranks bonus. It's less awesome than having 12, but it's still serviceable. A bit of a budget option.

The horde can work. And I think at 3000pts, maneuvrability is less of an issue. Over 2500pts, battles become more "run at each other and fight" than lots of movement and strategies.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Post Reply