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SpellArcher
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Re: A New Blog

#481 Post by SpellArcher »

The Reavers bravely sacrificed themselves to kill one of the Manglers. In the centre, the Phoenix Guard marched rapidly forwards, followed up by the Eagle and flanked by the Archers and Silver Helms (slightly further back). The Phoenix swung across to block off the Wolf Riders.

Magic saw Fiery Convocation scrolled. The Wolf Riders lost three models to shooting, Panicked and Fled 10". The second Mangler and two Stone Thrower crew were also removed.

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Prince of Spires
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Re: A New Blog

#482 Post by Prince of Spires »

It's looking tough for the elves. That helm bus is getting very thin. And with the impassible terrain in the orc center, getting the PG into the fighting together with the helms and phoenix is going to be tough. And HE generally don't like fighting other tough units 1-on-1. The orc on the other hand have their heavy hitters intact and supporting each other.

The HE have going for it that the wolf unit is on the run. Even if they rally, getting them to do something useful will be tough. Having them block the helms would have been great, but it feels like that should be out of reach. Also, they still have a scroll, which should reduce the impact of the next O&G magic phase.

All in all, I like the position of the O&G better at the moment, though having the phoenix still unharmed can be a game changer.
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Re: A New Blog

#483 Post by MasterOfNone »

I can't wait to see what happens next.
I agree things look a bit tight for the HE right now, especially considered it's the O&G turn. The SH (ex-)bus stands to be pummeled by war machines and magic.
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Seredain
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Re: A New Blog

#484 Post by Seredain »

Guys,

That's exactly how I felt about it - I'd just lost 7 silver helms in a single turn! One rock lobba stood opposite my left flank, ready to snipe my prince or BSB. I fired everything I could into that machine and scored those two wounds. One more shot to go...

Cheers!

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Re: A New Blog

#485 Post by Prince of Spires »

Seredain wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:00 pm
One rock lobba stood opposite my left flank, ready to snipe my prince or BSB. I fired everything I could into that machine and scored those two wounds. One more shot to go...
That's one big cliffhanger you're leaving us with... Let's see what happens next :)

Rod
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Re: A New Blog

#486 Post by SpellArcher »

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Prince of Spires wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:08 am
Also, they still have a scroll, which should reduce the impact of the next O&G magic phase.
Exactly Rod.
MasterOfNone wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:10 am
The SH (ex-)bus stands to be pummeled by war machines and magic.
It certainly will not stand another round of such excellent O&G dice MoN.
Seredain wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:00 pm
I fired everything I could into that machine and scored those two wounds. One more shot to go...
Could I make it count Mr S?

:mrgreen:

My luck had been really good from winning first turn to landing that double blow on the Helms. My other shooting whiffed but that mattered less. Seredain’s position was precarious but he had a solid turn, drawing my Scroll, removing both Manglers and Panicking the Wolf Riders. Could he preserve his heroes while his superior shooting ground me down?

Turn Two

The Wolf Riders rallied but I missed a trick by not Reforming them carefully enough. The archers garrisoned the building and my other units made small adjustments. Magic saw Foot of Gork scrolled. The artillery missed.

The Frostheart charged the Wolf Riders. Even with Gitilla’s re-roll their Flee just took them off the table, something a more careful Reform could probably have prevented. The Phoenix Guard wheeled forwards aggressively backed by the Eagle with the other units more measured. Magic saw Convocation hammer the Big’Uns while shooting largely targeted the war machines, in particular removing the crucial stone thrower.

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Re: A New Blog

#487 Post by MasterOfNone »

What about the doom diver? Although it must have done nothing if you did not mention it.
How quickly can things change... The Elves survived unscathed and SA's army is now in a corner, facing a more mobile adversary with superior shooting.
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Re: A New Blog

#488 Post by Prince of Spires »

Man, that was a harsh turn for the Orcs. It did show the fickle nature of (O&G) dice and the power of a scroll. Even a turn half as deadly as the previous one would have been hard to recover from. Now it's a lot more even.

I think the O&G still have a slight positional advantage. There's still 3 heavy hitters on both sides, with one of them depleted. But the Orcs are still anchored by the impassible terrain and their shooting might have a bit better lines of fire. On the other hand, the Phoenix is a serious force multiplier which can swing any combat. It might be going down to who has the best dice rolls (which is always a thing for O&G of course).

Very interesting to see how it plays out. And with the rate models are dying, I doubt we'll be getting all 6 turns
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Re: A New Blog

#489 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:40 pm
What about the doom diver? Although it must have done nothing if you did not mention it.
Yes.
Prince of Spires wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:11 pm
There's still 3 heavy hitters on both sides, with one of them depleted.
Perhaps I should have been more aggressive this turn Rod. After losing 1/3 of the Big'Uns last turn though, I didn't fancy taking a charge from the Silver Helms, Firstly, I had a 'free' stone thrower shot at them with no Look out Sir to worry about. More importantly though, I could see my characters getting killed. The main problem I have with the face off of the combat units is that Seredain's are overall faster, as MoN points out. He's also dead right that Seredain's shooting is simply better, especially once the Stone Thrower's gone.

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Re: A New Blog

#490 Post by SpellArcher »

Turn Three

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The Beasts successfully made a 50/50 charge into the Frostheart while the Big’Uns retreated. A huge magic phase saw the RIP Convocation dispelled. Foot went off Irresistibly again but scattered harmlessly. I used Earthing Rod to re-roll a bad Miscast but still lost two magic levels and my key spell. Once again, the artillery was ineffective. My archers were now in range but crucially only put two wounds on the Eagle. Combat saw each side inflict a wound. The Beasts won because they’d charged but the Phoenix held.

The Phoenix Guard and Silver Helms closed in on my units, the latter Reforming to avoid the wood. The wounded Eagle dropped in to restrict my options further.

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Ranged attacks left just my characters alive from their unit whilst Apotheosis healed the Frostheart. He took another wound but again passed the Break test.

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Re: A New Blog

#491 Post by Prince of Spires »

It's really going from bad to worse for the O&G. THat one turn where you failed to do much damage is now really hurting. Not a lot you can do anymore. Your army is slowly being picked apart and your options are very limited.

To come back I think you'd need some very lucky shooting, a big magic phase and the phoenix needs to be down asap. Not sure I see it happening. The trolls are still a formidable unit, but Seredain can simply chose to ignore it and deal with the rest of your army, magic / shoot it to pieces or gang up on it.
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Re: A New Blog

#492 Post by MasterOfNone »

And when the Warboss is gone - which is soon - the trolls will remain there drooling and doing nothing
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Re: A New Blog

#493 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:55 pm
To come back I think you'd need some very lucky shooting, a big magic phase and the phoenix needs to be down asap.
Well Rod, I did get one of those things.
MasterOfNone wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:39 am
And when the Warboss is gone - which is soon - the trolls will remain there drooling and doing nothing
Prophetic MoN, though it was slightly more complex than that.

Turn Four

Remembering he was a Black Orc, my General charged out of his unit and into the Eagle. The Shaman and BSB looked at one another and sloped off to hide in the Goblins. Magic achieved nothing. The Doom Diver Misfired, my other shooting managed to kill a couple of Archers. Combat came up trumps, Poison went berserk and brought down the Phoenix. I reformed to threaten charges on both the Helms and an RBT, probably I should have faced one or the other. The Warlord killed the Eagle and needed a 7 on his Overrun to contact the PG and escape a charge from the cavalry. He rolled a 6.

Image

The Silver Helms charged my General. Forgetting that he was a Black Orc (and therefore ITP and forbidden to do this) he screamed and ran off, emerging beyond the confused Trolls. The Helms of course, Redirected into same and were joined by the Phoenix Guard. The threatened RBT did a neat side shuffle taking itself out of the Beasts’ charge arc.

Convocation flayed the Goblins while shooting actually made some inroads into Nurgle’s Finest. Combat saw the rear rank of Trolls go down. They struck back, killing the Archmage. To no avail, needing snake eyes to hold they failed at which point I conceded the game. It was getting late and with the imminent Overrun into and destruction of the Goblins plus my remaining characters I could see no way back.

0-20

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Re: A New Blog

#494 Post by Elithmar »

Thanks for the interesting report. It seems magic was key. Clearly you both thought it would be, since both scrolls were used by turn 2. That foot of Gork helped to put the bus in a dangerous situation early on, while convocation ripped through a couple of your units.

Very close after turn 1 - another good round of magic or shooting for the O&G, even just taking down the eagle, and the result could have been very different. Of course, the close games are the best!

I'm torn over the beasts of Nurgle charge against the phoenix. While it's probably their best target and even just tying it up prevents a lot of headaches, it did take them away from the O&G centre where the threat they project could have been crucial - especially given that the trolls ended up as the only viable threat there, and they were easily blocked by the eagle.

Love all the close ups by the way. That's why we're all here, to see well painted models battling against each other!
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Re: A New Blog

#495 Post by MasterOfNone »

Great battle, and commiserations.
It seemed open initially, but the dice are fickle and your war machines only managed one good shot.
Also unlucky with double IF (of which one caused damage only to you!).
Your Beasts could have supported more the centre, but on the other hand they neutralised the Frostheart, and if things had gone differently with magic and shooting, this could have been a great help.
I really like them as allies to the O&G's and will look into getting some, perhaps.
The bolt throwers and Doom Diver did absolutely nothing in the game. While I think the Doom Diver is worth keeping, I would have replaced the BT's with one catapult and some MR on the Big Uns.
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Re: A New Blog

#496 Post by SpellArcher »

Elithmar wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:55 pm
Thanks for the interesting report.
Thanks Eli.
Elithmar wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:55 pm
Very close after turn 1 - another good round of magic or shooting for the O&G, even just taking down the eagle, and the result could have been very different. Of course, the close games are the best!
I feel luck was about even in this game. The small things (the Warlord’s Overrun, the Wolf Riders Fleeing the field etc.) mostly went Seredain’s way. I had a couple of really big results (taking the phoenix down, the great first turn).
Elithmar wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:55 pm
I'm torn over the beasts of Nurgle charge against the phoenix. While it's probably their best target and even just tying it up prevents a lot of headaches, it did take them away from the O&G centre where the threat they project could have been crucial - especially given that the trolls ended up as the only viable threat there, and they were easily blocked by the eagle.
Me too, not sure if it was a good move or not. Sometimes though, it’s good to be bold, simply to get something going in a difficult position.
Elithmar wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:55 pm
Love all the close ups by the way. That's why we're all here, to see well painted models battling against each other!
As mentioned, we have Seredain to thank for that!
MasterOfNone wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:11 am
Great battle, and commiserations.
Thanks MoN.
MasterOfNone wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:11 am
I really like them as allies to the O&G's and will look into getting some, perhaps.
As Seredain pointed out, they were kind of like a unit of Trolls that could function away from the General. Definitely necessary to make up for the inefficiencies in the rest of my list.
MasterOfNone wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:11 am
The bolt throwers and Doom Diver did absolutely nothing in the game. While I think the Doom Diver is worth keeping, I would have replaced the BT's with one catapult and some MR on the Big Uns.
The Doom Diver did score a solid hit first turn. Tactically I’d be inclined to get a second one in. The MR is a good point.

Several times (the Wolf Rider and Beast Reforms, not seeing in advance that the Trolls couldn’t hold, perhaps being too cautious first turn) I made errors that weren’t ridiculous but that added up to put me in a very difficult position. Seredain made fewer of these errors, that’s the difference between a decent player and a strong one. I suspect I should have joined the Trolls with my General near the end instead of charging the Eagle, though how much difference that might have made to the final result, I’m not sure.

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Re: A New Blog

#497 Post by MasterOfNone »

I had overlooked the bit about the doom diver, but I guess that reinforces my thought.
I do rate the doom diver much higher than the BT's so my comment still stands.
For 3 BT's you could get a doom diver and MR 2 (just need to find the remaining 5 points somewhere)
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Re: A New Blog

#498 Post by SpellArcher »

MasterOfNone wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
I do rate the doom diver much higher than the BT's so my comment still stands.
Yeah, it's excellent.
MasterOfNone wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
For 3 BT's you could get a doom diver and MR 2 (just need to find the remaining 5 points somewhere)
I've had some thoughts in general about list revisions which I'll revisit in a longer post soon.

One thing I'll mention is that a list like mine, played by me can carry along quite happily for a while, playing some games against strong lists, some against strong opponents. Occasionally though, you run into a strong list played by a strong player as in this game. On the one hand it can be a bit dispiriting, I don't turn up to lose! On the other, it's a really good reality check and outlines in sharp detail the deficiencies of your list and of your play. Having played quite a few such games over the years, it's a real education.

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Re: A New Blog

#499 Post by MasterOfNone »

Unfortunately that rich experience you mention is what I lack.
My games are limited to me alternating on each side of the table and moving both armies.
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Re: A New Blog

#500 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think part of it was your Turn 2. It was pretty much a wasted turn for you where you dealt no damage and didn't offer up any new threats while on the HE turn 2, you took a lot of damage. With your general's unit depleted and your stone thrower lost it was an uphill battle from there.

I'm also wondering if you could have gone in with the beasts against the cavalry bus instead of the phoenix. From the pictures it looks like it's about the same distance and like the PG and phoenix are positioned in such a way that they can't join in on the HE turn. And if you get the charge, then all you really have to worry about it the prince with his S7 attacks. Yes, that's probably 4 wounds, but you should be able to deal at least as many in return and decimate that unit. They're only elves after all, and those don't like getting hit with stuff.

Maybe you should have moved up more agressively in your T2, and threaten some charges. The HE army had ranged superiority, so combat would have maybe been a safer place to be in. And while PG are a formidable unit, they still don't feel too comfortable with taking 10 trolls to the face.

Now Seredain could play the game he wanted, pick you apart with ranged attacks and then deal the final blow with the combats he set up.
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Re: A New Blog

#501 Post by SpellArcher »

I used to do the same MoN. In the 70’s there was a Solo Wargamers Association, they had a journal called Lone Warrior I believe. Chatting with other players and reading battle reports can also be really helpful.
Prince of Spires wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:45 am
I think part of it was your Turn 2. It was pretty much a wasted turn for you where you dealt no damage and didn't offer up any new threats while on the HE turn 2, you took a lot of damage. With your general's unit depleted and your stone thrower lost it was an uphill battle from there.
I was of course still optimistic at that point Rod. I’d just done a number on the Helms and had expectations of inflicting further damage in turn two. I was also under the mistaken impression that even slightly entering the wood would lose the Big’Uns Steadfast. Also, I was slightly fixated on the risk of advancing the Beasts and losing them to a combo-charge.
Prince of Spires wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:45 am
Maybe you should have moved up more agressively in your T2, and threaten some charges. The HE army had ranged superiority, so combat would have maybe been a safer place to be in. And while PG are a formidable unit, they still don't feel too comfortable with taking 10 trolls to the face.
Objectively I did actually have good chances of inflicting nasty damage on the Helms. The stone thrower had maybe a 1-in-6 of killing the enemy General? The Doom Diver could easily have done damage and an IF’d Foot of Gork was also a possibility. One of these events was pretty likely. I’d also lost a third of the Big’Uns to the miscast, rendering a 1 on 1 vs the Helms questionable. Advancing was certainly a viable option but I’m not sure holding at that point was the wrong decision.
Prince of Spires wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:45 am
I'm also wondering if you could have gone in with the beasts against the cavalry bus instead of the phoenix. From the pictures it looks like it's about the same distance and like the PG and phoenix are positioned in such a way that they can't join in on the HE turn. And if you get the charge, then all you really have to worry about it the prince with his S7 attacks. Yes, that's probably 4 wounds, but you should be able to deal at least as many in return and decimate that unit. They're only elves after all, and those don't like getting hit with stuff.
I think it was slightly further to the Helms. I knew I should win vs the phoenix but when was unknowable. I suspect the Helms beat the Beasts, as the 2+ Armour is really important vs the S4. On the one hand it would buy my other units more time. On the other, the Frostheart is then free and I’m still getting pummelled by the RBT.

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Re: A New Blog

#502 Post by Seredain »

SA thanks for the write-up and again for a cracking game!

We've discussed mistakes above but I don't think you made an howlers (except I guess fleeing your ItP general - which I didn't spot either!).

Prince mentions the beasts' charge as questionable. At the time I myself felt that way because it opened a door into your soft underbelly. My mental arithmetic wasn't good enough in the moment to convince me that a combo-charge against the beasts, with my cavalry and phoenix, was the right choice. I thought that 4+ regeneration + unbreakable = the potential for a game-losing disaster whereby my fast units outpace the phoenix guard, get stuck, and then get rammed in the flank by trolls.

But SA I appreciate you were in a similar position. If my phoenix gets behind you with my other units in front, it's tears at bedtime. Grinding him out with the beasts (I healed him back up to full and your beasts went totally nuts and still killed him in one round!), wasn't an unreasonable choice. The rest was just dice-rolls.

On the warmachine front, I feel like 2 doom divers and 2 rock lobbas is the sweet spot. Tear away knight models and then drop a rock on my general's head. How you pay for it I don't know. Spear chukkas might miss most of the time, but they project a lot of threat and close down angles of approach. No knight unit wants to offer its flank to a bolter sitting in the corner. And they're dead cheap. Tricky.

I myself made a list change immediately after this game as well. Out goes the Sword of Anti-Heroes and in comes another mage (level 1, High) and an extra eagle. 2 redirectors felt too light this game against three solid threats and that amount of shooting.

I'd be delighted to have a rematch when you're ready!

Cheers,

S
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Re: A New Blog

#503 Post by TyrrenAzureblade »

Great report, looking forward to that rematch!

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Re: A New Blog

#504 Post by SpellArcher »

TyrrenAzureblade wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:10 pm
Great report, looking forward to that rematch!
Thanks Tyrren!

:)
Seredain wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm
SA thanks for the write-up and again for a cracking game!
You’re most welcome sir.
Seredain wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm
Prince mentions the beasts' charge as questionable. At the time I myself felt that way because it opened a door into your soft underbelly. My mental arithmetic wasn't good enough in the moment to convince me that a combo-charge against the beasts, with my cavalry and phoenix, was the right choice. I thought that 4+ regeneration + unbreakable = the potential for a game-losing disaster whereby my fast units outpace the phoenix guard, get stuck, and then get rammed in the flank by trolls.

But SA I appreciate you were in a similar position. If my phoenix gets behind you with my other units in front, it's tears at bedtime. Grinding him out with the beasts (I healed him back up to full and your beasts went totally nuts and still killed him in one round!), wasn't an unreasonable choice. The rest was just dice-rolls.
Yeah, I’m still unsure even now.
Seredain wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm
On the warmachine front, I feel like 2 doom divers and 2 rock lobbas is the sweet spot. Tear away knight models and then drop a rock on my general's head. How you pay for it I don't know. Spear chukkas might miss most of the time, but they project a lot of threat and close down angles of approach. No knight unit wants to offer its flank to a bolter sitting in the corner. And they're dead cheap. Tricky.
I agree that 2 and 2 is the way to go but unsure I want to paint those at this point! I hope to post up a list revision fairly soon.
Seredain wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm
I myself made a list change immediately after this game as well. Out goes the Sword of Anti-Heroes and in comes another mage (level 1, High) and an extra eagle. 2 redirectors felt too light this game against three solid threats and that amount of shooting.
So the match-up was a good stress test for your list too!
Seredain wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm
I'd be delighted to have a rematch when you're ready!
Can’t seem to catch my breath right now but thank you!

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