sea guard reapers vs queens guard?

[PadForce]

Morning all!

Quick question:what are people's opinions of Sea Guard Reapers vs the new Queens Guard?

I ask because every game i have had recently with my standard 2 Reapers over the last year or so.. the reapers are always a target for enemy cavalry etc, and the obviously cant get away and so surrender their points. Further more they arnt actually that hard to kill despite being t7 as they only have w2.

For 10 points more than 2 reapers, you can get 10 wounds worth of skirmishing Queens Guard. You gain magical and flaming, but lose -1 as. You are better against high t monsters because of +1 to wound vs straight S4. Most importantly skirmishing QG can move 10 inches and still fire, and therefore wont be such easy targets for cavalry or ambushers in my back field. With than 10" move the 24" range is less of an issue too.

Anyway just interested to see what people think.

Cheers

[Galharen]

well, I have to say that I love how the 9th Age influenced the roster builing process, we can enjoy it again with lots of options. Sisters with skirmish look very tasty, really good vs monsters do to +1 to wound, means wounding the dragons on 5+

However, I think I will take 2 RBTs as well, mainly do to the fact how opponent players react seeing them, they don't let their demon princes run solo from the beginning but they try to hide them during the deployment and move later cautiously. S6 48'' bolts are always a good thing. Without at least 3 I didnt start any battle in 8th ed

[SpellArcher]

For 10 points more than 2 reapers, you can get 10 wounds worth of skirmishing Queens Guard. You gain magical and flaming, but lose -1 as. You are better against high t monsters because of +1 to wound vs straight S4. Most importantly skirmishing QG can move 10 inches and still fire, and therefore wont be such easy targets for cavalry or ambushers in my back field. With than 10" move the 24" range is less of an issue too.

Good points all. I'm with you both in that this is a good unit, it can do more things than a pair of RBT. Light combat, redirecting (in 5's), anti-Regen, anti-Ethereals, what's not to like? However...

I think I will take 2 RBTs as well, mainly do to the fact how opponent players react seeing them, they don't let their demon princes run solo from the beginning but they try to hide them during the deployment and move later cautiously. S6 48'' bolts are always a good thing.

This. While Queen's Guard are functional vs high Toughness, the anti-armour and range of RBT can be critical. They do less than QG but what they do is very, very important for a lot of lists. What might be helpful is if you post up a list where the QG are a better pick than the RBT PadForce. Do you have anything in mind?

[PadForce]

What might be helpful is if you post up a list where the QG are a better pick than the RBT PadForce.

Well I am only considering a couple of amends to my current list as I was overall happy with how it performed in my thread. The thing with the list below is that I will play it as aggressively as possible, charging everything across the table. In that case my 2 RBT are always left behind (hence also dying every game). I think in this instance it is going to be better to have Queens Guard on my refused flank, next to the Seaguard, at least able to move away from threats.. hide in woods / buildings, rather than just sitting there like Turkeys waiting for Christmas.

List as it stands:

Prince, Loremaster, Book of Meladys, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Shard of Cenryn, Daemonhunter Helm, Lucky Charm, Lion Fur - 373
Commander, BSB, Warden of the Flame, Flame Phoenix, Giant Sword - 430

Seaguard x26, Heavy Armour, Musician, Standard, Banner of Becalming - 383
Silver Helms x12 - 221

Frostheart Phoenix - 200
Queen's Guard x10, Skirmish - 160

Phoenix Guard x23, Full Command, Razor Banner - 420
Eagle - 50
Dragon Princes x5, Devastating charge - 160

I am currently trying to weigh up whether to go 26 Swordmasters instead of 23 Phoenix guard.. but I will note that in my current army thread

[Cold Phoenix]

I like both. But for anything other than a full avoidance list, I'd go Reapers first. The reason being that Bolt Throwers can keep heavily armored characters honest and hiding in units/terrain/out of LoS.

[Prince of Spires]

The thing with the list below is that I will play it as aggressively as possible, charging everything across the table. In that case my 2 RBT are always left behind (hence also dying every game).

This doesn't actually have to be a downside to them (funny though it may sound). I think it was Furion who made such a point in 8th (maybe with the 7th ed book). Basically, with the long range, you can ensure you get 2-3 turns worth of shooting. And if you position them in such a way that a single unit can't take both out in 1-2 turns of combat (using overruns etc) then your opponent will probably dedicate more points to taking them out then they are worth. It will leave the unit in question badly out of position giving your an opportunity to dominate on other places of the battlefield.

In general I think the choice really depends on your list and what armies you regularly run into. Some lists need the s6 bolts more then other lists. And against some armies the extra -1as doesn't add a lot. If you see a lot of skaven or undead then you're less likely to need it then if you normally run into chaos warriors or brets.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

In general I think the choice really depends on your list and what armies you regularly run into.

I agree it comes down to this. Your list is fairly mobile PadForce but you also have infantry blocks and against faster enemy with armour I would want the RBT. If those are rarely faced, take the Queen's Guard. But for all-comers I'd bring the RBT. Whether you lose them or not in some games is almost incidental at 75pts each, compared to not having them vs Dragon or Daemon Prince.

[PadForce]

In general I think the choice really depends on your list and what armies you regularly run into.

I agree it comes down to this. Your list is fairly mobile PadForce but you also have infantry blocks and against faster enemy with armour I would want the RBT. If those are rarely faced, take the Queen's Guard. But for all-comers I'd bring the RBT. Whether you lose them or not in some games is almost incidental at 75pts each, compared to not having them vs Dragon or Daemon Prince.

I partially agree, but because of +1 to wound QG are actually better than RBTs against dragons.

[Nicene]

Let's do some quick math:

S6 bolt vs. a HE Dragon (T6, 3+ armor). Assume long range and no cover (models of Large Height don't gain cover from infantry, etc).
hit on 4+, wound on 4+, no save, d3 wounds = 0.5 wounds on average

volley fire vs. HE Dragon:
hit on 4+, wound on 6+, save on 5+ = 0.33 wounds

5 QG with skirmish, longbows. Assume -1 to hit from either long range, movement, or s&s
hit on 3+, wound on 5+, save on 4+ = 0.55 wounds



S6 bolt in the flank of Knights of Ryma:
hit on 4+, wound on 2+, ward on 6++, can penetrate = 0.79 wounds

volley fire vs. Knights of Ryma:
hit on 4+, wound on 3+, armor on 4+, ward on 6++ = 0.83 wounds

5 QG vs. Knights of Ryma:
hit on 4+, wound on 3+, armor on 3+, ward on 6++ (let's just forget they have Fireborn for this example): 0.46 wounds

[PadForce]

Hmmm i assumed the difference for shooting vs knights (obv waaay more common than dragons so more relevant) would be that large. This is giving me pause.

[Prince of Spires]

Let's do some quick math:

S6 bolt vs. a HE Dragon (T6, 3+ armor). Assume long range and no cover (models of Large Height don't gain cover from infantry, etc).
hit on 4+, wound on 4+, no save, d3 wounds = 0.5 wounds on average

5 QG with skirmish, longbows. Assume -1 to hit from either long range, movement, or s&s
hit on 3+, wound on 5+, save on 4+ = 0.55 wounds

not a completely fair comparison though, with 24'' vs 48'' range. Long range for the bolt means out of range for the QG. and long range for the QG is short range for the bolt.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

5 QG with skirmish, longbows. Assume -1 to hit from either long range, movement, or s&s
hit on 3+, wound on 5+, save on 4+ = 0.55 wounds

From experience of shooting at big flyers with WE scouts I'd say more usually 4+. This would make the RBT do slightly more damage than the QG instead of slightly less. It's closer than I thought though. As Rod says, more important is range. If the QG start within 34" they can theoretically shoot but all models need to be this close and troops, terrain etc may interfere with this. It is so easy to have the rest of both armies prevent the archers from countering the dragon effectively. WE scouts deploy last which reduces this problem but QG are more dependent on deploying after the dragon.

It would be interesting to test the above. Historically, the problem with using WE archers vs these targets is that you're either good vs armour (Waywatchers) or good vs Toughness (Poison) but never both. The real nightmare targets are for example WoC characters with T5 and 2+ or 1+ AS, which is where RBT score, though the sods usually pack a Ward as well. WE's have Longbows and usually Scout too. QG have Flaming.

obv waaay more common than dragons so more relevant)

Not so IMHO. There are several ways to deal with knights, which our other troops can cover. Very few to deal with big flyers.