2400 pts Defensive MSU with spears

[chumchu]

This list is built to test out some things with the new book in the coming months. I want to do a MSU with redundant units. I want to change up core units from silver helms and see if the new spearmen can perform (I have my doubts about this). To get the most our of spearmen a defensive infantry list seems best. I'm trying to combine ranged superiority with decent counter attack options anchored by the 2 spearman units.

Magic is loremaster for his immense flexibility. With the new Lore attributes being half-spells and the nerf to high level wizards he seems like a better caster than an arch mage, not to mention his improved combat stats. The second caster is for redundancy and an extra call of the hunt for the spears. Characters probably either go with with one of the spear units or with the queens guards if it is to dangerous.

I went for pure bolt throwers since most lists have tough targets and it is those that the spearmen struggle against. Betweeen them the sisters, reavers, princes and chariots i should be able to deal with support units and chaff.

The weaknesses I see with this list are: 1) The loremaster being so crucial but having relatively light protection, 2) leadership, especially panic but I do not feel I can afford musicians and still keep my scroll caddie and ranged superiority. All corners have been cut. 3) Lack of really solid anchor unit that can take a charge, since the spears having some bad match-up that the old phoenix guards did not have.

Lords
Prince, Loremaster 330
Mithril mail, Dusk Stone, Shard of Cenryn, Great Weapon

Heroes 281

Battle Standard Bearer, Queens Companion 176
Dragon Mantle, Sword of Strength. Dragon Armour, Shield, Long bow, Moonlight Arrows

L. 1 Beast mage 105
Dispel scroll

Core 635

5 Reavers 85
Bows

5 Reavers 85
bows

25 Spears 245
musician, standard, banner of becalming

25 Spears 220
musician, standard

Special 1000

10 Swords 130

10 Swords 130

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 60

5 Dragon Princes 160

5 Dragon Princes 160

Rare

11 Queens Guard 154
Long Bows

2400

[SpellArcher]

I like this chumchu.

As RBT are Special I believe they are limited to a max of three. What I'd be tempted to do is buy repeating for these (really good vs elves and skinks for example) and put the points saved towards the Queen's Guard. Even with Longbows, Wood Elf experience suggests to me that they need a musician for Swift Reforms. Alternatively, drop the Longbows and buy Skirmish.

The BSB is an interesting hybrid. I'd try to squeeze Lucky Charm in if you can. My gut feeling would be to drop the Mage and stick the scroll on the Loremaster, which would save a lot of points. Maybe something like Dragon Armour, 4+ Regen, GW, Scroll, Shard of Cenryn. This would let you go Lion Fur, HA, Dusk Stone, Hardened Shield on the BSB for a straight 2+ RR. Your way looks decent too though.

[chumchu]

Good catch about the RBT! =) I'm obviously still a bit confused by the 9:th. My internal min/max:er tells me that that there should almost always be a decent target/area denial for a normal bolt thrower if I can deploy properly and that the 15 points are a waste. Maybe I'm undervaluing the flexibility, it would certainly be useful if they are menaced by fast cav or scouts.

I like the cheaper BSB variant you propose but the loremaster seems to weak against rank and file attacks with only 5+4++, I would not want to stick him in combat, especially as my only caster/dispeller. I can get him the scroll if I drop the shard but it is an insurance against tough characters that go through his armour.

New BSB
Offensive:
Battle Standard Bearer, Queens Companion 181
Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Long bow, Moonlight Arrows, Hardened Shield, Talisman of Shielding, Ogre Sword.
Defensive:
Battle Standard Bearer, Queens Companion 178
Lion fur, Heavy Armour,Lucky Charm, Shield, Deamon Hunters Helm, Sword of Strength, Long bow, Moonlight Arrows

Which is better 2+ 6++ S6 or 2+ (3++) and a single re-roll but S5. I'm leaning towards the defensive one.

If we take away a bolt thrower that leaves 58 points. I take your advise get the queens guard a musician and 2 bodies. That leaves and 20 points left for commands. Musicians on swords or dragons? Champions on swords or spears? Not rolling lower than 4 might well be important on infantry but I'm leaning towards musicians on swords to make them more maneuverable. They are after all my choppiest units.

[Nicene]

Is your BSB going to be doing a lot of shooting? Drop the Ogre Blade and give her the incredible Greatbow to fully utilize the honour you're taking.

I think she (and also the Queen's Guard) need mundane spears. This will make them very daunting vs. cavalry-type foes, which are the most likely enemies that would reach them. Just a thought.

[Prince of Spires]

If you're looking into min/maxing then I would drop the bows on the reavers. 5 bs4 s3 shots that normally only shoot after moving are not worth it. 5 shots = 2.5 hits = 1 wound if you're lucky. So, don't bother with the points for something that is bound to die turn 2-3 anyway. Gives you another 10 points to add to something.

The rest of the list looks interesting enough to try it out I think. Too many unknowns for detailed feedback in my mind. Though if you're going for a defensive list then swordmaster, lion chariots and dragon princes are perhaps odd units.

SM's get shot up too easily. especially if you hold back with the list. Lion chariots I'm interested in seeing how they perform in 9th. They create a nice threat projection which will scare off lighter troops. But I'm not completely convinced about their durability and staying power.

Rod

[chumchu]

I do not think dp, swords and chariots are that strange choices. The list is designed around the spear units that provide static CR, staying power with bodies and steadfast. The other units are there to counter charge or threaten smaller units and are chosen for maximum damage output. In the old rules I would definately have used white lions or phoenix guard for staying power but with fear being less common and holy attack being more so they seem a bit unreliable. If I am up against shooting then I expect the queens guard and reavers to take the first hits rather than the swords. 5+ 6++ is at least decent.

The BSB is a combat character with a bit of shooting on the cheap and will go with the highborn in the most important spear unit most of the time. With the great bow the bsb should probably stay out of combat altogether as she is limited to either S4 or insufficient protection. That means a dedicated shooting BSB to go with the queens guard like:
Battle Standard Bearer, Queens Companion 178
Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Great Bow, Shield, Spear, Banner of Becalming.
If I do that I want another combat character to go with the spears as I do not fully trust them to hold their own, but then I do not get an extra mage and extra cast of call of the hunt for my spears in the critical combats. Decisions, decisions. I also do not want to make the queens guard too important, they are in the list partly as bait, as the obvious target in the centre of my line for people to go after as other targets are very little points or hard to kill in CC.

Regarding the reavers. Their pot shots is part of the attempt to compensate for having no repeaters and archers. If they can kill a model or two from some chaff unit that is all I ask. In a game where I get to defend they might get more than one round of shots off and then they might actually panic a unit of opposing fast cav or something. I have cut away most flexibility in the list but these 10 points seem so cheap.

New list:

Lords
Prince, Loremaster 330
Mithril mail, Dusk Stone, Shard of Cenryn, Great Weapon

Heroes 281

Battle Standard Bearer, Queens Companion 178
Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Lucky Charm, Shield, Deamon Hunters Helm, Sword of Strength, Long bow, Moonlight Arrows

L. 1 Beast mage 105
Dispel scroll

Core 635

5 Reavers 85
Bows

5 Reavers 85
bows

25 Spears 245
musician, standard, banner of becalming

25 Spears 220
musician, standard

Special 1000

10 Swords 130

10 Swords 130

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 60

5 Dragon Princes 160

5 Dragon Princes 160

Rare

13 Queens Guard 188
Long Bows, Musician

I'm envisioning an ideal battle line would look like: DP LC Sp Sw QG Sw Sp LC DP with reavers flying free and bolt throwers deployed opportunistically.

[SpellArcher]

I take the point about single bolts and in raw terms I agree that's what you buy RBT for first, heavy board control vs Daemon Princes and such. But HE's also need a fair bit of light shooting IMHO and 45pts for that is a steal. Personally I'd cut Queen's Guard to get it. Try the list as is and see I guess.

4++ (or Regen) is workable on a 3-wound character I've found, especially with -1 to be hit. He can't grind forever but should last until you can turn fights. Of your two BSB builds chumchu I agree the defensive one is better. I still prefer Dusk Stone because a single 2+ vs mundane is a bit thin with only two wounds I feel. Again though, a case of testing probably.

I agree with the small combat units. If you lose one or two, no drama. It's the Spears/characters combo which has to work for the list to hold up.

[Nicene]

I like the bows on the reavers. It's points well spent.

I guess I understand the 27 points you're paying for the shooting on your BSB. Assuming the spears aren't marching, that's 3 shots hitting on 2+ or 3+, essentially with str4. That's cheaper and better than 3 more Queen's Guard, so I guess it makes some sense to buy that honor rather than buying more QG. I still think spears on the QG might be a great investment.

If you take the upgrade, there are very few circumstances where you'd ever fire the Reaper as a single bolt--the math nearly always works out better when firing six shots. (yes, even when firing at 2+ armor, T3 knights in the flank) I have a spreadsheet somewhere with all the numbers worked out. So it's definitely a good upgrade. But worth the points? Not sure.

[SpellArcher]

This Loremaster build is worth a look:

Scroll, Dusk Stone, Daemonhunter, Shard of Cenryn

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 6&start=30

[chumchu]

SA:

How about giving him the book instead of the scroll? A 3+ is a lot worse than 2+, even to the point that dusk stone does not seem worth it. And since the new loremaster is such a good caste a re-roll per turn matters a lot. This leaves the dusk stone for my BSB as well. It feels better but costs 46 points more.

Characters 659

The (more offensive) Prince 373
MoCT, Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Lucky charm, Deamonhunter Helm, Great Weapon, Book of Meladys, Shard of Cernryn.

The (more defensive) BSB 181
QC, Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Hardened Shield, Sword of Strength, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows, Dusk Stone.

L. 1 Beast mage 105
Dispel scroll

Core 635

5 Reavers 85
Bows

5 Reavers 85
bows

25 Spears 245
musician, standard, banner of becalming

25 Spears 220
musician, standard

Special 955

10 Swords 130

10 Swords 130

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 75
Repeater

1 Bolt Thrower 60

5 Dragon Princes 160

5 Dragon Princes 160

Rare 150

10 Queens Guard 150
Long Bows, Musician

[Nicene]

I like that Prince build.

[PadForce]

I am liking the development of these Loremaster builds!

Book, DHH, charm, shard looks tempting.. i will give it at least a try

[chumchu]

I'm itching to try it as well. Will try to get a game in next weekend and see how it goes.

[SpellArcher]

How about giving him the book instead of the scroll? A 3+ is a lot worse than 2+, even to the point that dusk stone does not seem worth it. And since the new loremaster is such a good caste a re-roll per turn matters a lot. This leaves the dusk stone for my BSB as well. It feels better but costs 46 points more.

Given the BSB and that you want the second mage chumchu this makes sense. I agree that with the nerfs to magic in the rules, Book increases in value. 3+ is indeed a lot worse than 2+ but vs S4 or 5 for example, the re-roll matters and without it, the Loremaster has to be played just a touch more defensively. In PadForce's list for example, he is the only caster hence Scroll becomes more attractive. Dusk Stone etc fit very neatly in with it. The bottom line is whether your Loremaster can take fights on as often as you need him to chumchu and that's probably a case of testing.

I'm still not sure the list has quite enough light shooting but it could have.

[chumchu]

Alternative list that changes sisters, dragon princes and mage for 2 phoenixes and 2 units of lions. The lions go after the tough units that pure bolt throwers had to deal with before leaving them for chaff control, fireborn phoenixes hits infantry, skirmishers, war machines and provide back up close combat.

Core 643

5 Reavers 85
Bows

5 Reavers 85
bows

25 Spears 245
musician, standard, banner of becalming

25 Spears 220
musician, standard

Special 925

10 Swords 130

10 Swords 130

10 Lions 130

10 Lions 130

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Bolt Thrower 75
Repeater

1 Bolt Thrower 75
Repeater

1 Bolt Thrower 75
Repeater

Rare 320

Fireborn Phoenix 160

Fireborn Phoenix 160

Characters are either offensive prince, defensive BSB (-1 spear):

Prince, MoCT, 373
Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Lucky charm, Deamonhunter Helm, Great Weapon, Book of Meladys, Shard of Cernryn.

The (more defensive) BSB 154
Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Hardened Shield, Sword of Strength, Dusk Stone.

Or the other way around (+1 spear)

Prince, Loremaster, 358
Mithril mail, Dusk Stone, Dispel Scroll, Great Weapon.

Commander, BSB 154
Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Hardened Shield, King Slayer, Talisman of Shielding, Shard of Cenryn.

[Nicene]

I love those units of 10 Swordmasters. Such a great choice in a list like this.

So I have some experience playing lists that feel like this, I and can tell you that your troops are going to have to be spread way out across the entire deployment zone in order to have space to maneuver. And your bolt throwers may not have good lanes of fire either; you don't want the bolt throwers' fire zones to dictate your other units' deployment and maneuvering.

Would you consider converting one or two of your bolt throwers into Sky Sloops? Assuming you have the models of course. You could take the bolt thrower upgrade if you thought you still needed the anti-armor (and you may, since you don't have a lot of S7 in your list). Flying units are easier to move around (and shoot with), especially when your space is going to be so cramped. And chariots are easy to combo-charge with, into the corners of units for some extra combat resolution. A shame they don't have the combat capabilities they had in 8th edition, but I think they may still have some value in this type of list.

I do like the change from Knights of Ryma and Queen's Guard into Phoenixes. That will help a lot with congestion.

Also, a list with 6 infantry blocks, plus tons of other units to move around, is going to result in very long games. Hope you bring plenty of beer!

[SpellArcher]

Personally I don't trust the Lions. The Stubborn is conditional (they could be better with Skirmish I feel) and they risk dying in combat without achieving much. Compare the Knights who have +1 to hit and crucially Initiative 6. These have a better chance of doing serious damage to the enemy before he strikes and have better saves which helps combat res.

[Galharen]

Personally I don't trust the Lions. The Stubborn is conditional (they could be better with Skirmish I feel) and they risk dying in combat without achieving much. Compare the Knights who have +1 to hit and crucially Initiative 6. These have a better chance of doing serious damage to the enemy before he strikes and have better saves which helps combat res.

they still have bodyguard rule, so they can play identical role as in 8ed with bsb/prince/noble inside.

[SpellArcher]

I'm talking about in 10's really Galharen and in this list, a radical MSU with more units might be different.

I agree that a large unit with Bodyguarded character has something to be said for it.

[chumchu]

I do not trust the lions either but they fill a number of holes in my alternative build. The most important is that they are cheaper and significantly more durable than the dragon princes while still giving S6 to threaten hard stuff (especially if they get to use multiple wounds). Their is target saturation for anti-infantry fire in the list while dragon princes are the only juicy target for anti-armour attacks, except maybe the chariots, and very expensive per model. They have less mobility but hopefully the phoenixes can compensate and provide threats to units far away. The dragon princes are better in most match-ups and have leadership 9 which means that they can operate better on the flanks. Lions and phoenixes is the more defensive build.

[SpellArcher]

I take the point about how stuff fits into the list but I feel that in this case the Knights are just a better unit in general and that outweighs it. The Lions are OK vs shooting but they're a combat unit and that's where they have problems. Decent against anything they get double wounds on but most of those are faster and don't have to engage. M5/6 stuff like (Monstrous) Infantry or Initiative 6 Cavalry they're not great against. They sorely miss the re-rolls and default Stubborn, not to mention simply going first, of early 8th edition. Now they'll put some wounds on but take more and likely break on static res, giving the enemy an opening. Worth testing I agree, I'm just suspicious of them.

With anti-armour attacks, I guess we're talking about RBT or maybe massed RXB's or such? Enough of this will take the Knights down but it's also effective against the Swordmasters for example. The Knights will be targeted first anyway, simply because of M9. Compare Wild Huntsmen who are even more killy. These are very often target #1 but they're still very popular and effective, despite dying quicker to shooting. My unit of five has won games for me. Plus of course, several armies have no shooting cavalry like this fear. In a way it's like some armies have nothing to trouble the Phoenixes at range, while some have fear-of-god artillery, the lists are exchanging one set of vulnerabilities for another.

I prefer the Knights build because they will reliably put kills on most enemy and win combat in the process. The Lions and Phoenixes risk losing combat too often IMHO.

[chumchu]

With anti-armour I mean attacks that specifically ignore armour like metal magic/dwellers/black magic attribute, lethal strikes, some war machines, shrieks etc. In the first list, queens guard were the obvious target for light shooting and knights the obvious target for anti armour. In the new list there are not as many obvious targets but is not as punchy either, it gains survivability but loses damage output/threat projection. It is more of a denial list than the first. It can hopefully kill stuff late in the game by clearing away the opponents chaff and getting some multicharges off.

[chumchu]

Inspired by Spellarchers list I've decided to cut the mage to get MoCT on my BSB to save a few points and make him distracting. This means less defensive gear options. Two builds, one with more defense and one with more casting power. Which is better?

Prince, MoCT 355
Great Weapon, Mithril mail, Dusk Stone, Dispel Scroll.

Battle Standard Bearer, MoCT(beast+shadow) 217
GW, Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Deamon Hunters Helm, Lucky Charm.

Or

Prince, MoCT 355
Great Weapon, Mithril mail, Lucky charm, Book of Meladys, Shard of Cernryn.

BSB, MoCT (beast+shadow) 232
GW, Lion fur, Heavy Armour, Dragon Scale Helm, Dispel Scroll.

With the extra points the rest of the list would be roughly:

Core 655
25 Spears 255
Full command, banner of becalming.

25 Spears 230
Full command.

5 Reavers 85
Bows

5 Reavers 85
bows

Special 990

10 Swords 140
Musician

10 Swords 140
Musician

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Lion chariot 90

1 Bolt Thrower 75
Repeater

1 Bolt Thrower 75
Repeater

1 Bolt Thrower 60

5 Dragon Princes 160

5 Dragon Princes 160

Rare 168

6 Queens Guard 84
Long Bows

6 Queens Guard 84
Long Bows

[SpellArcher]

Which is better?

I think the 'combat' builds. Not per se but because often a Spear block will need one or both characters taking fights on. The 2+ RR Lord is pretty solid with his -1 to be hit and against anything Magical the Daemonhunter BSB is your elf. The other builds are OK. The Scroll BSB for example is passable in a list like mine because he'll be on the frontline less often. Here though it's more awkward IMHO. Losing the Book hurts but close combat comes first IMHO.

Personally, I'd go 2x5 Skirmish on the Queen's Guard for flexibility.

[chumchu]

Noted. I go with the top builds and 5+6 skirmishing queens guard then. Now I need to get my usual opponent to fight me,

[chumchu]

With the nerfs to MoCT, WotF and the removal of lion cloaks it is very hard to build durable and efficient foot characters. I see one interesting foot huntsman build: lion cloak, deamon helm, shard of cenryn for a 150 pts monster hunter. It does not fit in my list. The best "Fighty" character build I can find is this, which is expensive and lacking in power:

Commander, MoCT, (beast+alchemy) 193
GW, Mithril, 5+ Ward

Mage l2 White 130
Dispel Scroll

Commander, BSB, Warden of the flame 222
Dragon mantle, Hero Sword, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lucky Charm.

I'm leaning more towards avoidance with the characters but then spears lose a lot of their punch and the list goes from a middle ground list to a shooty/avoidance list. Either like this:

Characters: 505
Archmage, L4, White magic, Asfad 300
Dispel Scroll

Commander, MoCT, BSB,(beast+alchemy) 205
Heavy armour, Hardened shield, Great Bow of Elu

Core 600

20 Spears 185
Musician Standard, War banner

20 Spears 170
Musician Standard

15 Archers 155
Musician Standard

5 Reavers 90
Bows

Special 975

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 60

1 Bolt Thrower 60

5 Dragon Princes 160

5 Dragon Princes 160

10 Lions 150
Skirmishing

20 Wardens of the Flame 325
Full command

Rare 420

10 Queens Guard 130

10 Queens Guard 130

2 Eagles 80

2 Eagles 80

Or some middle ground with characters like this:

Commander, MoCT, (beast+alchemy) 193
GW, Mithril, 5+ Ward

Mage l2 White 130
Dispel Scroll

Commander, BSB, Queens Companion 177
Moonlight arrows, Dragon mantle, Hero Sword, Dragon armour, Shield, Lucky Charm.

And 20 seaguards for the BSB to go in instead of archers and reavers.

I should perhaps give up on this particular build and go for mounted characters as they are faster and more durable.

[SpellArcher]

First question chumchu, why not consider fighting Lord builds?

Second question, are the Spears contributing much in this revised list? Might be better to take a single deeper block?

[chumchu]

Re: Fighter lords. I have shied from fighter lords for two reasons prior to list building:
1) I want enough points for units (max 600 points characters). If I want decent magic and a bsb that leaves me with little room for a fighter lord on top of other characters.
2) I want a mostly foot list. Fighter lords are probably better off mounted for mobility and durability. Hardened shield, Dragon armour, Duskstone, Giant Sword on barded steed is my prefered build, but it costs 275 points and demands an escort. I can fit in 10 helms in core apart from the spears but that changes the list into a more offensive one.

The old loremaster could do both in a stand-offish way when he was distracting and 50ish points cheaper. I can still play a loremaster with mithril, dusk stone, dispel scroll but he cost 405 points and without distracting he will take 50%-100% more hits in cc. The best I can come up with now is this but it is very light on magic:

Lord, Queens Companion 260
Longbow, Moonlight Arrows, Gleaming Cuirass, Shield, Talisman of 5+ ward, Ogre Sword.

Mage l2 White 130
Dispel Scroll

Commander, MoCT, BSB,(beast+alchemy) 205
Heavy armour, Hardened shield, Great Bow of Elu

Re: Spears. I want to make them work and with the new pricing the sweet spot is closer to 20. With the nerfs to foot characters I have more doubts about spears being my main fighting blocks. So instead of 25 with characters I changed them to 20 without characters up to act as semi-cheap support units from core tax. That creates the need for an anvil unit to do some of the tasks they did before -> wardens. That eats into my points for msunits. Swords do not feel as hot anyway.

[SpellArcher]

Re: Spears. I want to make them work and with the new pricing the sweet spot is closer to 20. With the nerfs to foot characters I have more doubts about spears being my main fighting blocks. So instead of 25 with characters I changed them to 20 without characters up to act as semi-cheap support units from core tax. That creates the need for an anvil unit to do some of the tasks they did before -> wardens. That eats into my points for msunits. Swords do not feel as hot anyway.

If I remember my MSU doctrine from Swordmaster and SmithF, it needs units with high strength attacks. For me that's still Swordmasters because of Initiative 6. Going character-light fits with this and TBH I would drop a bolt thrower and fill Core with shooting and Reavers. I'm not sure how well the Flame Wardens fit with this.

I guess I'm still not seeing how units of 20 Spears (cheap though they are) are going to work. I guess the idea is to be a temporary anvil to be quickly reinforced by hittier troops? The danger is a fair few things go through them in one round. Combo-charging is an idea but difficult with M5 infantry where you don't have as many combat units as a more traditional MSU force. Plus your good shooting units are pretty static and big blocks tend to do static better than smaller ones. Maybe get some Poison Shadow Warriors in make the shooting a bit more mobile?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hello,

I would like to share some thoughts on the a few topics in this threat regarding the role of some units in MSU style armies. I tried to check the current rules but as I am not an active 9th Age player I may have omitted something. So please, correct me if I am wrong.

1. Spears

In comparison to 8th edition version I think Spears are much better. They have access to heavy armor, they have extra edge in fighting certain enemies and it seems they are cheaper too. In addition, in MSU army their ranks can be of better use in flank/rear attacks as well as the bonus can be higher than just 1+ and they can break steadfast.

I don't know how efficient they are now in pure killing abilities but their main role is to provide support to the units with high strength attacks (but smaller in numbers). In addition, they may provide a psychological weapon because the enemy needs to take into account the fact what are the consequences of 6's to hit in significant number, even if the probability of certain result is low.

2. Keepers of the Flame

One of the advantages of MSU approach is that it does not reveal where vulnerable and/or expensive characters can go. Another is that the units are not expensive and potentially every one is expendable if that allows the rest of the army to get into favorable position.

With 20 expensive warriors it is clear that this unit is not going to be expendable. It is also clear where your characters will go so it is much harder to deceive the enemy during the deployment phase.

I understand that their role is to protect the general and/or bsb but if bought characters are going to join the regiment it is a very expensive unit and kind of "all eggs in one basket" approach, something to tally opposite to MSU philosophy.

I tried 15 of them at some stage and yes, they were designated unit for the army general. However, he was the Loremaster and I wanted him close to action (to use some of his spells) and be able to join the fight. Here, it seems you want to avoid it. While Immune to Psychology helps against unlucky panic check, it also denies you the option to flee.

In my opinion, in the current form the unit is too expensive, you project your intentions too clearly and it might be more difficult to keep your characters safe if the regiment they are in cannot retreat sometimes (e.g. fleeing through friendly ranks).

3. Swordmasters

Another unit that simply got better in comparison to 8th edition and I always had them in the army. They are a threat to any enemy, they may die easily but nobody will ignore them. In itself it can be used as an advantage.

They now have higher initiative and on top of that they ignore Parry and Distracted (I think that is how the rule is called) special rules of their enemies. I would never leave home without them but I know I am biased.

4. The army

I don't usually comment on the general army composition because it is personal approach of the player. I don't have experience in using defensive armies so I can't say much about this one either. The only thing I would ask though is to provide all the details for all units and format the list in clear way. At the moment I needed to guess that some options are bought for some regiments and I am still not sure if I got everything correct.

Thanks.