What does AoS mean for WHFB?

[Eirik]

We've been discussing this topic everywhere. It might be prudent to discuss the direction GW/WHFB is taking here rather than spamming someone's battle report or rules discussion threads with how we think GW hates their fans .

I'll start by posting a vid by Malorian discussing the new game. Canadians always explain it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3O0J6PtBVE

As time passes it seems more likely that AoS is 9th ed, not just the first of three games. This is the new WHFB and replaces the old game. So..

Are you salty? Yes
Will you keep playing? Yes
The old game, the new game, or both? Mostly the old, I'll try the new and play it occasionally if I like it
Will you sell your models? Newp. Looking forward to seeing the internet flooded with cheap armies though. GW might inadvertently lower the barrier to entry more than expected
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? I don't think they like their fans. I don't think their current fans will like AoS. I don't know whether their new game will be successful, but if it is that will be a new audience.
Will the fans make their own 9e?I hope so, and I hope it's good, and I hope it unites us rather than seeing our already small community fractured into 3 or 4 sub-communities
Is this the end of WHFB? For now yes. There are no other popular games like this on the market (the closest is probably that 10mm WH spin-off). If WH comes back it will probably be more than a decade from now, and a complete reboot rather than just an update.

etc.

[Makiwara]

Are you salty? More sweet and sour myself.

Will you keep playing? Yep.

The old game, the new game, or both? Whichever one I can get more games of and have more fun playing I suppose.

Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? I'm sure they don't hate their fans and I'm sure they think this is a good decision... what it ends up meaning for us and the game is going to be a matter of time and more material.

Is this the end of WHFB? Yep, it might live on in fanhammer releases, but yep everybody's dead Dave.

[AD8899]

Are you salty? Yes, if that means "annoyed" rather than "angry"....I'm not mad, just think it's a shame.

Will you keep playing? I am giving it a go, but I dont know for how long.


Will you sell your models? Not a chance.

Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? They don't hate their fans, they just don't care about them. We are customers, that's it. They're not at all bothered about how we feel about things, other how it affects our buying habits.

Will the fans make their own 9e? Already on it.

Is this the end of WHFB? Yes, and also the final death of everything I liked about it - the Warhammer World, art style of minis, the humorous side of some armies etc etc That means they get the chance to impress me again, but also that I no longer feel any tie to GW at all, and any customer loyalty I may have had in the past (I used to support them by buying a certain amount of stuff per year), is now gone completely. Most veterans I know feel the same and will now find a new way to run their hobby away from GW. If they happen to release something I want, I may buy it, but I won't be paying more attention to GW than I do to Scibor, AoW, Mantic etc.

[Aerendar Valandil]

Are you salty? No. I'm even slightly positive. OI haven't played yet and I am not a frequent payer anyway, but the sentiments seem to go both ways. Fanatic GW-lovers are furious and disappointed, but some players who have long been lost for GW surprisingly pick up the glove. I look forward to what happens.
Will you keep playing? Probably.
The old game, the new game, or both? Old, new, perhaps other game systems.
Will you sell your models? No. I never collected specifically for warhammer, although it became dominant. I collected fantasy armies. I recently picked up Song of Blades and Heroes for playing fantasy games.
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? No, they don't hate their fans, but their love is directly related to the $$$ returns. I don't know if this is a good decision, burt at least they dare to change the course.
Will the fans make their own 9e? Perhaps. Perhaps other related or unrelated, existing or not yet existing game systems will take over fantasy mass wargaming as in historic wargaming different concepts follow eachother up. Warhammer had some qualities, but it alsof had its flaws (although 8th was a good game gemeways). Historic game mecghanisms are often better, especially command and control. We'll see.
Is this the end of WHFB? Perhaps partially. See above. WH was a nice game, but certainly not the best on the market and it kept other rulesets small. New ones will emerge, good and bad.

[cptcosmic]

yes, it is the end of WHFB, it is obvious that GW wont support it anymore. It is not that GW hates their playerbase, they simply do not care and are stuck in $$ tunnelvision, which after all will ruin them. they also ruined their reputation by making their already existing WHFB playerbase angry. remember that the playerbase was usually the force that dragged new people into the hobby by telling family/friends, this is now gone. anyway I will keep my models and keep playing but not AoS. AoS is an abomination that should be burned quickly.

[SpellArcher]

Are you Salty? No, he is from Thomas the Tank Engine.

Will you keep playing? So long as I can find events I like.

The old game, the new game or both? Old if it's available, new if the elf models are incredible.

Will you sell your models? No.

Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? As said, they are supremely indifferent. Bad decision for most of the existing player base, whether it's a good one for GW we just don't know yet.

Will the fans make their own 9e? Yes, though how well this will work is also unclear.

Is this the end of WHFB? The jury is out.

[AD8899]

What I'm wondering is how serious GW's assessment of AoS' sales will be. The radical overhaul is coming at the end of a general financial downturn, so AoS would have to really bomb not to make more money over the next 5 years than WFB was over the last 5. People will likely have more disposable income in the coming 5 years, and that will need to be factored into any serious financial analysis of the decision.

[Eirik]

Why are people likely to have more disposable income in the next 5 years as opposed to the previous 5?

[AD8899]

We've just been through a financial meltdown. Whilst we're still in the tail end of it, things are likely to improve over the next 5 years without the arrival of another crisis.

[Eirik]

Ah yes, I guess this differs country to country.

[AD8899]

Ah yes, I guess this differs country to country.

Reminds me of that Miles Jupp joke. "We're going through a global recession. Must be awful for the people involved."

[jamierk]

Are you salty? Yes
Will you keep playing? Yes
The old game, the new game, or both? Mostly the new, I can't see 8th lasting because whilest I love the game, the meta gets very fixed if there aren't new releases to keep shifting the balance. I should say i play a mix between casual and tournament games. My best memories of 8th are actually Triumph and Treachery games, and I can't beleive this isn't played more!
Will you sell your models? Only the unpainted '8th ed projects' that now probably won't happen. I don't know if i will do any rebasing yet though.
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? I think they don't hate their fans, but they have a tin-ear and are massively misguided as to the reason why they have falling profits. In our area, the 1man stores have had much more of an effect on sales than any game system has had.
Will the fans make their own 9e? In australia, maybe, but unlikely if the main tournament scene players don't keep it going.
Is this the end of WHFB? technically yes, and for the foreseeable future i think the old concept of rank and file armies is dead. This makes me sad.

[Arhain]

Are you salty? Most definitely yes.
Will you keep playing? Warhammer 8th. Not a chance in hell I will move to AoS.
The old game, the new game, or both? Old game, and most of my gaming group is currently looking at transitioning to KoW for a "supported game". 8th is still a wonderful game, and most will likely play with that, but as it fades, KoW will be our go to.
Will you sell your models? Hell no! Though I will most likely not buy from GW again, at least not their fantasy line. Have to show my vote of disapproval somehow.
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? I do not think this was a good decision. Destroying their IP and building it from the ground up was not a smart move. This release of a smaller skirmish game could have easily come alongside the continuing of the larger WHFB system, and would have funneled more players into the system. Now, they've alienated most of their current base and from what I can tell, turned many away.
Will the fans make their own 9e? Yes, but what a lot of people don't seem to realize, is that many gaming communities will "make their own 9e", and I think it will be difficult to nail down a definitive ruleset. In the meantime, the hobby will bleed into supported games. I could be wrong, but that's what I feel will happen.
Is this the end of WHFB? Yes, and i'd make a larger stretch and say that it's the end of warhammer, at least the beginning of the end.

[John Rainbow]

I see a bunch of people saying that they will be playing 8th for the time being. I had recently thought the same but already find myself bored of the same old 8th ed. meta. My fear is that in sticking with 8th and maybe even 'fan dexes' or whatever it will just be more of the same old same old. Say what you want about GW but the new releases did keep things changing and interesting over the years. Anyone else see a similar issue?

[Shannar, Sealord]

I see a bunch of people saying that they will be playing 8th for the time being. I had recently thought the same but already find myself bored of the same old 8th ed. meta. My fear is that in sticking with 8th and maybe even 'fan dexes' or whatever it will just be more of the same old same old. Say what you want about GW but the new releases did keep things changing and interesting over the years. Anyone else see a similar issue?

Honestly no. For those willing to try it there will be so much fan material coming out that it'll drive you batty. I expect more good quality stuff in the next year than GW put out over the last 10 years. For those who insist on only established rules there might be a problem, but for people who just want to play warhammer it'll probably be better than it's been in a long time.

[SpellArcher]

I guess I've been lucky in that UK tournaments vary a fair bit in player base and comp. Each event I've turned up to has had a different flavour and that might continue to some extent.

[Galdor]

I am a bit sad about all this as my small group of gaming friends and I had only just started to get into the UK WFB tourney scene! We went to our first one in Essex back in May and had a great time (our only gripe being some of the OP Endtimes stuff!). I really want to go to more tournaments, but it seems that a lot are going to move on and use AoS (e.g. Clash of Swords), which I'm not planning to get into. Our group will continue with 8th for the time being and we will be interested to see any fan-made changes to the rules - 8th is great but not perfect.

SpellArcher, which tourneys do you tend to go to and do you know of any that will continue to use 8th edition WFB?

[Delaqure]

I'm salty
I will keep playing 8th although I will probably try the new rules
GW doesn't hate it's players. They are just trying to stay a viable company.

Let's face it 8th was becoming VERY stale. There were great things about 8th but at least in this area we saw the same lists all the time. Guys gave up trying new stuff because they learned what worked in their meta. I personally think that rules changes could have been made to a 9th edition that would have really helped the game and infused new excitement. GW missed out on a great opportunity IMO to bring small games into being for noobs and refresh rules that would encourage old players to bring new stuff and have varied their lists.

[SpellArcher]

The following will be running 8th Galdor:

Colchester, November: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=129726

Hockley, Essex, September: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=129214

Bristol, September: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=125720

Milton Keynes, August: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=129863

Rushden, October: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=128873


The following are undecided:

Cardiff, October: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=126991

Reading, November: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=128205

Leicester, October: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=129073

Bristol, October: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=128832

I am hopeful for another Ill Blood in London at some point but who knows when. Last year I played Regarding Retribution in Aldershot but no idea if it will run this year.

[Eirik]

8th stale? I found that in tournies the rosters I see online seem to change year to year. ETC for example. But maybe that is just because of changes in comp.

Anyways, there has to be a better way to keep the meta interesting other than 'each new edition makes some units broken and some unplayable'. There has to be a better model. I guess it's just a question of if anyone will actually produce a new ruleset that gains wide adoption. Without that, there's not much hope for any sort of meta to develop.

[Shannar, Sealord]

Let's face it 8th was becoming VERY stale. There were great things about 8th but at least in this area we saw the same lists all the time. Guys gave up trying new stuff because they learned what worked in their meta.

I honestly don't see how this makes it stale. Even if both players have the same list for several games in a row there should be enough units involved to mix things up as long as you are willing to try something different. Or better yet try some of those crazy things called senarios. They aren't all perfect, but they are all good enough to mix things up.

[Prince of Spires]

Let's face it 8th was becoming VERY stale. There were great things about 8th but at least in this area we saw the same lists all the time. Guys gave up trying new stuff because they learned what worked in their meta.

I honestly don't see how this makes it stale. Even if both players have the same list for several games in a row there should be enough units involved to mix things up as long as you are willing to try something different. Or better yet try some of those crazy things called senarios. They aren't all perfect, but they are all good enough to mix things up.

Different definition of stale?

It perhaps depends what you look for in the game. I think for several armies an optimal 'netlist' configuration had developed. For instance, if you were new to HE and wanted a decent HE army for a tournament and not spend half a year trying things out then the advise would end up something like 'archmage, cav prince in SH bus, fill the rest of your core with reavers, bring a big unit of WL, frost phoenix and fill what is left with RBT.

However, I think that there were still a lot of surprise lists out there. We still saw some HE (and other) surprise lists out there that performed well (winning tournaments), using stuff people thought worthless or sub-par. I also think most army book releases managed to shift the meta enough to keep the game interesting. And I agree with you that when you're playing in a non-tournament setting there were lots of options out there to keep things interesting. I at least never felt the game was stale.

Rod

[Aicanor]

Are you salty? I kind of knew it would come to this since they sank Ulthuan, so no, I had time to come to terms with the development.
Will you keep playing? I do not have much time to play but yes, sometime.
The old game, the new game, or both? I will try the new rules out to see if the game is quicker and still fun. That would be good enough for now.
Will you sell your models? No way! I might add some more, but as of now I am missing only new Witch Elves and I am not going to buy them for that price.
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision?Of course they do not hate their fans. I think it is a bad decision, at least without lot of advertisement outside. White Duerdiwhatever is not going to save them as only people who already buy from GW are affected.
Will the fans make their own 9e?Many of those...
Is this the end of WHFB? Not for a long time. As they destroyed the patr of WHFB I liked and put the part of 40k I dislike. As the new models do not appeal to me in the slightest (but that goes on for a while already, the last one I really liked was the Skycutter, silly as it was), I am definitely staying in the Old World, making my own story. I can't be the only one. Might be tempted by new Aeiouelf models if they are nice, but I do not expect to see any new ones for quite some time yet.

[John Rainbow]

Are you salty? Yes
Will you keep playing? Yes but I don't know what yet
The old game, the new game, or both? All of the above? Maybe. Who knows. I will be trying Mantic KoW for sure though.
Will you sell your models? Hell no!
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? I would say that they think this is the best idea for them going forward. I personally don't think it was a great one but I don't work for them or know the financials, etc. I do know that WFB was somewhat stagnant and that I didn't see too many new players around.
Will the fans make their own 9e? Yes but I don't think it will take hold.
Is this the end of WHFB? As we know it probably.

[Truthiness]

Are you salty? Yes
Will you keep playing? Yes, but not a GW system
The old game, the new game, or both? Kings of War, here I come!
Will you sell your models? Nope. They're getting new KoW multi-bases though!
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? Hate is a strong word. Casual indifference is probably better. They have very clearly shown that they have no loyalty to their customers and don't listen. As for being a good decision, they have clearly gotten what they wanted: get a bunch of 40k drones to take the plunge by making the games far more similar than ever before. They simply didn't care about WFB player retention because we weren't buying enough for their tastes. We'll see if it pans out in the long term, but it appears to be working in the short term. If I have to read one more BoLS editorial about how great Age of Sigmar is, I'm just going to have to stop reading their site.
Will the fans make their own 9e? Yes but I don't think it will take hold. Similar things have been attempted for Mordheim and BFG only to die out. No official support means a slowly dwindling community with no growth.
Is this the end of WHFB? Yup.

[SpellArcher]

No official support means a slowly dwindling community with no growth.

I believe a lot of players want and will want to play a massed battle game. At the moment there is a lot of backing, at least on the UK scene, for continuing 8th edition tournaments. Whether players and events slowly migrate to KoW or another system, something will continue to be widely played and supported IMHO.

Having originally come from historical wargaming, I've witnessed rulesets last for many years with very few changes.

[Truthiness]

No official support means a slowly dwindling community with no growth.

I believe a lot of players want and will want to play a massed battle game. At the moment there is a lot of backing, at least on the UK scene, for continuing 8th edition tournaments. Whether players and events slowly migrate to KoW or another system, something will continue to be widely played and supported IMHO.

Having originally come from historical wargaming, I've witnessed rulesets last for many years with very few changes.

My statement there is exclusively concerning a 9th edition. Without a business supporting and advertising, I just don't see a fan based Warhammer 9th edition surviving, much less thriving. Not only would it have to deal with limited visibility, it now has to deal with massive disaffection in the player base. Just like you, however, I see desire for a mass fantasy game continuing. I've said a few times that I think KoW was the logical step forward. Some might prefer War Throne. Either way, there is now a large space to fill that GW clearly does not care to fill.

As a side note, it's pretty entertaining reading the ETC forums with them talking about "seeing if Mantic is open to dialogue and feedback" like they're special little snowflakes that must be listened to. Mantic already have a whole player based committee dedicated to just that. The results, in my mind, speak for themselves. I'm very impressed with how well done the whole system is.

[pk-ng]

No official support means a slowly dwindling community with no growth.

I believe a lot of players want and will want to play a massed battle game. At the moment there is a lot of backing, at least on the UK scene, for continuing 8th edition tournaments. Whether players and events slowly migrate to KoW or another system, something will continue to be widely played and supported IMHO.

Having originally come from historical wargaming, I've witnessed rulesets last for many years with very few changes.

My statement there is exclusively concerning a 9th edition. Without a business supporting and advertising, I just don't see a fan based Warhammer 9th edition surviving, much less thriving. Not only would it have to deal with limited visibility, it now has to deal with massive disaffection in the player base. Just like you, however, I see desire for a mass fantasy game continuing.

Could be true but if you look at Blood Bowl as a case study... it stop getting GW support for about 15 years? or something close yet last year it got a 888 man tournament. Interesting fact for a "dying" game.

[Truthiness]

Excellent point, but it really is the exception rather than the rule. BFG, Mordheim, Epic, Warmaster, and Necromuna have not been so lucky. It probably has a lot to do with blood bowl just being so awesome. That said, Warhammer has a larger dedicated following than any of those other games, so if there is to be another exception, WFB could be it. I just think there are enough other options out there to siphon support away from a fan based 9th edition.

[20phoenix]

Are you salty? No
Will you keep playing? Yes
The old game, the new game, or both? Both
Will you sell your models? I'm a newbie to WHFB - something i've wanted to get into for the past 20 years. Part of what grabbed me at this moment in time is how cheap everything currently is on ebay! Some amazing deals which have made both edition accessible.
Does GW hate their fans, or is this a good decision? I don't think WHFB fans will like it since they've gone from a tactical game to a skirmish one. However if it gets more players from 40k or new people like me in then its got to be a good thing right? Especially as I fully intend to play 8th as well (AoS for small games, 8th for some tactical shenanigans). Just hope enough players stick around to have someone to play with
Will the fans make their own 9e? I would expect so - look at what the Necromunda (my favourite GW game evah) did to their ruleset. The WHFB player base is way more committed and numerous so I would expect things to happen here.
Is this the end of WHFB? That largely depends on the player base. If people keep playing 8th/fans make 9th to fix any perceived issues/AoS brings in other new entrants then theres no reason for the grand old game to end.