Tethlis' Army Blog, The Old World

This forum is for the posting of reports of your famous victories and crushing defeats. It is for both single battle reports and for ongoing army diaries/blogs.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: vs Brets, updated 5/21

#361 Post by Tethlis »

Just a quick update, played another half dozen games or so that I haven't done full reports for. So far, the shooting has continued to please.
Warden of Tor Galadh
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: vs Brets, updated 5/21

#362 Post by Ferny »

Tethlis wrote:
Ferny wrote:Oops, yes - withering. I always get those two muddled :? .

Yes, fair points RE: shadow, it is an excellent lore. Some more questions, albeit a bit hypothetical.

I can see why and how shadow works. I don't think it's an optimal use of the book but who cares, it's shadow. But Magic has such a big impact on the game lore choice can change the whole dynamic of the army. You seem comfortable with shadow, but if you were forced to ditch it, do you think your army would work as well (or indeed, similarly) with a different lore, or with the loremaster? I know you experimented with him early on - is shadow too much of a draw? Or did you just miss the Lv4 dispel too much in your area?

I'm particularly thinking about big gribblies and regen here - would your shooting and bolt throwers still pack a hard enough punch without shadow? This seems to be a big part of your game.

I'm still trying to work out how you get those things to work for you. I know they're meant to control board space, threaten DPs and MC etc...but I really don't see it happening, except in your reports it does. Even with two, they hit half the time and wound half the time doing just D3 wounds (pre ward/regen if sisters didn't do their thing) - it just seems to slow and, crucially, unreliable.

I think the list can remain pretty much as is, even with a different Lore. Using a Loremaster for example, I would lose out on Withering but gain advantages in other areas. For example, a big Spirit Leech, Shem's Burning Gaze or Searing Doom can achieve similar destructive results at range that I currently get from Withering. I'll do fewer wounds via shooting, but more wounds via Magic, helping to balance things out.


The major problem picking another lore though is that Shadow has the dual role of making Phoenix Guard hit hard, and making arrows dangerous. Those are pretty fundamental staples of this list. A Loremaster can make Phoenix Guard a bit more survivable with various hexes, and Wildform can make them hit a bit harder, but not in the same way, and not with the same redundancy, that Withering / Mindrazor can. Shadow takes everything in the list and generally makes it more potent, while still being able to debuff damage and possessing a good self-contained direct damage spell that can pull a Scroll early on. Other lores don't really do that for the units I'm suing. I think the Loremaster's spell variety could fill these gaps partially, but I don't think he does it better, and ultimately you end up paying more for a Loremaster than you do for a Level 4, for reduced magic effectiveness. +2 versus +4 is major, both for casting and dispel.

That being said, I often can't rely on Withering to make my shooting work. An opponent will often Dispel it, or perhaps I won't generate it. When that happens, the focus becomes on Generalship to try and disrupt enemy threats so that I can focus-fire my shooting on one monster at a time, before they reach combat. The nice thing is that, on average dice, 10 Maiden Guard and 2 short-range RBTs kill a Chimera without needing Withering at all. If I roll badly, I have the Reaver Bow and miscellaneous Strength 3 arrows to help. Magic just lets me annihilate one using even fewer shots, so I can get a head-start on grinding down a different threat sooner.

That being said, building a strong shooting phase starts before Turn 1. Sometimes this comes from out-deploying the enemy, forcing him to spend an extra turn maneuvering his monsters, during which I can shoot and kill one per turn. Sometimes I can intimidate a threat like a Daemon Prince or Terrorgheist, forcing my opponent to hide one or more monsters so that I can create breathing room for my troops and get enough of a lead in VP that I can afford to lose something if my shooting doesn't kill it. Lastly, if something does live and makes it into combat, it helps to have good positioning so that your squishy troops can't be reached easily, and durable/Stubborn combat threats that don't roll over and die because they eat one Chimera charge. This is also where Shadow + Iceshard Blizzard are great. If I throw a moderate amount of dice at Withering, and it's dispelled, then I can use the rest of my magic phase to buff up my troops and make them scary if my opponent decides to commit to combat. Alternately, if it's a low-Initiative monster, perhaps Pit of Shades will get the job done and I can follow up with that. Sometimes you can even get creative, using things like Panic. Just today, in a game I won't write up as a report, I knew I probably couldn't kill a Chimera with shooting that had LoS to it, but I was able to kill a nearby unit of Hounds. My opponent stopped Withering, stopped Pit, but was forced to let through Iceshard, making that Chimera a lousy Leadership 4 because his general was flying around somewhere else. I killed the hounds, the Chimera panicked, easy money. It's not just about picking a target and shooting it with lucky dice, sometimes improvisation is important to keep those big nasties away from you. You have to deploy well, not advance forward more than necessary, give yourself space so that the opponent has to cross open areas of the table to reach you, and kill / redirect those warmachine hunters so your bolt throwers have as many turns as possible to try and hit the rolls they need.
Thanks for the response - sounds sensible - I might have to switch over to shadows and see how it works. I only get 1 game/week so I'm way behind the curve on actually experiencing the new book play, and I want to stick with my loremaster to start with for the shenannigens. I also want to try High Lv4 before I switch over to BRB lores, so it'll be a while before I catch up, but good to know old faithful (shadows) still works.

I've highlighted generalship - I think that's key - I love list bashing and theory hammer, but my battlefield generalship is pretty basic. Love reading all the reports people put up on here though, hopefully something will stick (I did my first 'eagle engage with second unit, over-run with lions and 2nd round of combat in same turn' trick a couple of weeks ago, and even managed it twice!).
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Malossar
Something Cool
Posts: 2309
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:21 pm
Location: Northern, California USA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: vs Brets, updated 5/21

#363 Post by Malossar »

Hey if you've got the time i'd love to see a full copy of your list and maybe a few words about what's working and what isn't.

Thanks.
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
Image
User avatar
Velmates
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:34 am

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: vs Brets, updated 5/21

#364 Post by Velmates »

Me too. If there are any changes since your last report I would love to see them and maybe a few words why you made them.
Thanks in advance! Your reports are great. Keep them coming!
- Velmates

Check out [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63818]my painting blog[/url]!
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: vs Brets, updated 5/21

#365 Post by Tethlis »

Sure thing guys.


Lord
Archmage (Level 4) with Book of Hoeth, Lore of Shadow.
275
Some people don't like naked casters, but I find I don't have much of a problem. Being cautious and having an effective 4 Wounds has been fine so far. The only thing that really concerns me are Sniper spells, and Banner of the World Dragon is protection against that. Once combat gets close, she can duck out to another unit. The Book is basically a necessity. Shadow has been working very well for me with this list, as a defensive and offensive asset. The double threat of Pit/Withering is great in the opening turns, and we all know how useful it is in combat.


Hero
Noble with Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, Dragonbane Gem, heavy armor, halberd, battle standard.
147
I still tweak the wargear here, but I'm fairly happy with this setup. There hasn't been a single game where I've regretted having the Reaver Bow over a more standard combat character. One turn of Strength 8 can be game-breaking in the right matchups. She's obviously not someone who belongs in combat, but the halberd means she can at least fight light backline hunters or maybe finish off a wounded monster or similar threat that gets into combat with her unit. The Dragonbane Gem is there if my opponent only has Flaming ranged attacks; sometimes she'll draw missile fire, make her Ward Save, and protect more valuable units.

Mage (Level 1) with Dispel Scroll, Lore of Heavens.
145

I'm quite pleased here. Iceshard is a fantastic default spell to have in a lot of situations, and the Scroll is important. It's not a hyper-efficient use of points, but it isn't bad either. By cutting down the Phoenix Guard and Sisters, I can get up to a Level 2 here. So far though, I find that I haven't wished for it too much.

Core
Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95
The Reavers are my favorite change in the new book. They hunt warmachines better than Eagles, and they survive as Redirectors better than Eagles. They're still pretty cheap if I need to sacrifice them, and 15 more bow shots is useful in the opening turns of the game. Some people don't like the musician, but since I'm often fleeing charges with them far from the battle standard bearer, being able to reliably Rally is important.

Archers (10) with musician
110
Still useful for clearing redirectors or helping to put another wound on a monster. This is the primary hiding place for the BSB, since she and her unit all have to fire at the same target. I'd rather the Strength 3 arrows on these guys go to waste then possibly overkill an opponent by having the Sisters and the BSB be forced to shoot at the same thing.

Silverhelms (9) with full command, shields
237
I like these because they tend to be overestimated. They're cheap enough that if I lose them it's not a big deal, and they can often tie up a much tougher enemy pretty reliably for a round of combat if I have to sacrifice them. They're quite effective flanking or adding into a fight that's already underway, and a combined charge from them and a Frost Phoenix can take out a lot of enemy monsters or opposing units with low static Combat Resolution. They're quick enough to also hunt warmachines, threaten a backline, or chase down backline hunters. I wasn't sure if they would have a proper role without hard-hitting characters to support them, but so far I'm really pleased. Perhaps their most useful role is actually as a lightning rod for spells and shooting. People see the good protection and high model count of a unit like Phoenix Guard or White Lions, and decide they'd rather try to take a chunk out of the Silverhelms instead. This often lets me get the infantry units into combat completely untouched.

Special
White Lions (21) with full command, Banner of the World Dragon.
353
Still useful, still excellent despite the lack of re-rolls. Stubborn is Stubborn, and Banner of the World Dragon and high Strength makes them a natural counter to a lot of the tough units out there. A bigger unit would be ideal, but 21 is still enough to fulfill the role of combat unit, character bunker or 2+ Ward tarpit depending on what I need them for.

Phoenix Guard (25) with full command, Razor Standard
450
It's shocking how great these are at gathering points. Their ability to resist charges from some of the scariest units in the game continues to blow my mind. I've seen 3 separate occasions where Phoenix Guard have fought off a Red Fury Vamp Lord and full bus of Black Knights. I wouldn't change these at all. I know some players love going for that 3+ Ward, but I actually think that packing too many points into Phoenix Guard starts to compromise their role. I think one of the great things about these guys is how underwhelming they feel, and how few opponents are intimidated by them until they're losing combat. When you start juicing them up with a 3+ Ward and a ton of characters, the opponent naturally thinks "oh, Deathstar, better nuke that unit into oblivion while redirecting it." By keeping it free of characters, it tends to slip under the radar and enemies commit to trying to kill it without thinking much about whether the probability is actually in their favor. Most of the time, it isn't, and the Phoenix Guard win games as a result.

Rare
Sisters of Avelorn (10)
140
I love them. I think the combination of Sisters and Bolt Throwers is a great shooting phase. I really like having the punch of the Reaver Bow BSB and some Core Strength 3 arrows to back them up. These ladies are amazing in the right matchups, and still good against even the worst opponent. Watching VC players drop their Terrorgheists and Spirit Hosts as far from these as possible is a great sensation, and they can also be used to bunker characters or even sacrifice their lives to redirect if necessary.

Repeater Bolt Thrower
70

Repeater Bolt Thrower
70
I hated these at first, but mostly because I was trying to use them like cannons instead of the completely different warmachine that they actually are. Someone asked me the other day, "how do you know when to use the single shot, and when to use the repeater shot?" I realized that there isn't necessarily a formula for it, it's more something that feels intuitive. If I tried to break it down though, I'd say that any time you Repeater Shot can do damage without having to worry much about an enemy save, use the Repeater Shot. If the Enemy save is too high though, such as 1+ Save Cav, Monstrous Cav or a Daemon Prince, use the single shot.

Frostheart Phoenix
240
A great unit. I like that it's very useful as a single threat, where it can tie up enemy monsters, units that can be thunderstomped, or unkillable characters, or else it can assist in combined charges to add some high-Strength attacks and its oh-so-wonderful debuff. Since we have to rely on range to kill a lot of the nastier stuff out there, the Phoenix can be a good way to slow those threats down and stop them from reaching our valuable troops until the shooting is freed up to help. The Phoenix might die, but can save more than its own point cost if it stops a Disc Lord or Terrorgheist from romping around the backfield. The long charge distance, Ward Save, effective Toughness 7... All good recipes for dashing out to defensively tie up a threat while the rest of the army list kills things. I also find it's a great cannonball magnet, which often gives the bolt throwers time to kill key redirectors or even fireback and scrape enemy warmachines off the table. Losing the Phoenix early isn't a problem, because the list still has a ton of additional threats out there that it can use to gain points. Opponents might spend a lot of effort trying to kill this thing, only to realize that they haven't achieved much when the infantry regiments get into combat unscathed and juiced up on Shadow support.

Total: 2497

I totaled all this from memory, so hopefully the point values add up. Yell if something looks out of place and I'll actually get my book out :D

This list looks very underwhelming on paper, but I've taken it against some really tough matchups and done very well. It really feels more powerful than the sum of its parts, though I don't think it's the strongest High Elf list out there by any means. The thing I like though is that it's take-all-comers, not having any major weaknesses versus the popular lists out there. It might have to work harder in certain matchups, but doesn't auto-lose versus anything. I'm not afraid of some hard work on the tabletop, so fielding a list with at least a fighting chance is perfectly acceptable to me.
Warden of Tor Galadh
Jimmy
Centurion
Posts: 3307
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: vs Brets, updated 5/21

#366 Post by Jimmy »

Great write up Tethlis, thanks for taking the time to put that up.

Looking forward to more reports. :)
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: vs Brets, updated 5/21

#367 Post by Tethlis »

I've been trying something slightly different the last couple of weeks. I've been borrowing armies to play games against High Elf players, to see how the army stacks up from a different perspective. Here, an opponent took a list very similar to my standard one, but opted for Spears instead of Helms to maximize Mindrazor, and didn't take a support caster in order to bulk up his infantry units. I took a VC list that I felt was solid, but not necessarily WAAC. Scoring a win because my opponent couldn't kill two Terrorgheists in time didn't sound like a good test vs High Elves. Before the experienced VC players rip me apart, let me make it clear that I am NOT a VC player. This is my second game ever actually using VC, though I've fought against them plenty of times. I had:

-Level 4 Vamp Lord with Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard, heavy armor, shield, barded nightmare, Red Fury, Quickblood, Beguile.
-Level 1 Necro with Dispel Scroll
-Level 1 Necro with Book of Arkhan
-30 Zombies with musician, standard
-40 Ghouls with Ghast
-5 Dire Wolves
-5 Dire Wolves
-5 Dire Wolves
-5 Dire Wolves
-Spirit Host
-Spirit Host
-9 Black Knights with full command, Banner of the Barrows
-10 Hexwraiths
-3 Vargheists
-Terrorgheist

He had:

-Level 4 Archmage with Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Shadow
-Noble with Sword of Might, Shield of the Merwyrm, heavy armor, battle standard
-5 Reavers with bows
-5 Reavers with bows
-5 Reavers with bows
-35 Spears with full command
-10 Archers with musician
-25 Phoenix Guard with full command, Razor Standard
-21 White Lions with full command, Banner of the World Dragon
-15 Sisters of Avelorn
-RBT
-RBT
-Frostheart Phoenix


Deployment
He formed his units up around the middle, but he made a fairly significant error by parking so close to the forests in the middle of the table. That would give me some valuable Soft Cover as I moved up the table. He kept his Phoenix tucked back to avoid the Terrorgheist. I was happy to keep the Lord focused on the right side for a rapid push against his weakest troops, forming the infantry and most of the redirectors up on the left side to slow down his primary combat blocks and give me time to hack through his shooters and weakest units. I dropped the Lord in the Black Knights (no surprise there) and both Necros in the Zombies. I kept the TGheist safely tucked back out of Sister range...

For spells, both my Level 1s took Invocation of Nehek. The Vamp Lord took Vanhel's, Hellish Vigor, Raise Dead, and defaulted Curse of Years down to Invocation of Nehek. My opponent had all a good spell lineup for his one caster... Miasma, Withering, Pit of Shades, Mindrazor.

Image

Asur Turn 1
He realized he was in trouble with his deployment, so brought his primary combat blocks forward as quick as possible while shuffling his support troops. The bolt throwers couldn't manage any damage, having to shoot through the forest. He did throw far too many dice at Pit of Shades at the Terrorgheist, IFed it, scattered off the TGheist, blew his caster up, and only managed to Pit a couple Wolves. That's why Book is so good with Lore of Shadow... You don't have to throw too many dice at spells and risk IF.

Image

VC Turn 1
The quick stuff ran forward, with the Vargheists trying an average charge at the right-most Reavers and prompting a flee reaction. I didn't have much magic here, since everything was topped up there was no combat. The TGheist screamed at the Sisters, killing a half dozen.

Image

Asur Turn 2
He kept his elites coming forward, reshuffling his line. His fleeing Reavers kept fleeing off the table. He kept trying to put pressure on the Terrorgheist, but the Soft Cover made a huge difference and the Gheist dodged both bolt throwers and only took a pair of wounds.

Image

VC Turn 2
The VC Lord and his Bus charged the Spears, and I dashed the Hexwraiths into the Lions to stall them up and keep them from reaching the Zombie bunker. The Vargheists tried a charge on the Sisters but rolled low on distance. On the left, the Ghouls charged a Reaver unit, got a flee reaction, and the Dire Wolves charged also and ran them down with some hot dice. The Spirit Host did the same, also prompting a flee, and the second set of Wolves also ran down their Reavers. The Frost Phoenix was the big variable here, possibly in a position to go after my Necro bunker or my Lord bus, so I showed the Phoenix the flank of the zombie unit and parked a unit of Wolves in front of it to delay the Phoenix and stop it from contact the Necromancers themselves. For Magic, my opponent stopped my re-rolls for the Lord Bus but I was able to give them re-rolls to Wound and also raised a Zombie unit to take on a bolt thrower next round. The TGheist screamed a bolt thrower down and killed it. In combat, the Lord and Knights tore through a dozen Spearmen and they held on Steadfast. The Hexwraiths and Lions started the biggest slapfight ever, with me squeezing a wound past the 2+ Ward and crumbling slightly for my troubles.

Image

Asur Turn 3
The Phoenix Guard charged the offered Dire Wolves, while the Frost Phoenix went for the Dire Wolves shielding the flank of the Zombie Bunker. Shooting tried to take on the Terrorgheist again, but the lack of musician on the Sisters meant they couldn't get the angle needed to target it. The Phoenix Guard ran over the Spirit Host, reforming to give their front to the Lord Bus. The Phoenix Ran over their Wolves and into the flank of the Zombies, and the VC Lord and his buddies broke the Spearmen. The Spears fled through the Terrorgheist, who bumped them off the table. The Lord restrained pursuit and reformed to face the Frost Phoenix...

Image

VC Turn 3
The Lord and bus charged the Frost Phoenix, the raised zombies charged the bolt thrower, the Vargheists hit the Maiden Guard in the flank. I kept slogging my redirectors and the Ghouls into position, parking a Spirit Host in front of the Phoenix Guard to keep them busy a bit longer. In combat, the Zombies clawed down the bolt thrower crew, while the Vargheists murdered the Maiden Guard, ran them down, and overran into Archers. In combat, I got the full slough of buffs off on the Knight Bus, turning them into real monsters. They fully murdered the Phoenix on the charge, reforming to face the Phoenix Guard. The Hexwraiths continued their epic slapfight against the Lions, basically doing a wound a round and crumbling one per round.

Image

Asur Turn 4
The PG charged the redirecting Spirit Host, killing it, while the Archers were broken by the Vargheists and run down.

Image

VC Turn 4
The Ghouls finally arrived at the White Lion party, while the Knight Bus and Terrogheist double teamed the Phoenix Guard. I managed to get off Vanhels, giving the Lord those excellent re-rolls. The TGheist Scream rolled hot, killing a full rank of Phoenix Guard. The Phoenix Guard champion challenged, and the Black Knight champ accepted. The Lord hacked up 5 Phoenix Guard, with my opponent rolling well even through Other Trickster's Shard. The Phoenix Guard champ took down the Black Knight champ, and the rest of the Phoenix Guard really brutalized the Black Knights who only scraped a few wounds in return. The Terrorgheist did some damage with his basic attacks, but rolled 1 for Thunderstomp and I ate some crumble wounds. The Ghouls really went to town on the White Lions though, and of course they held on Stubborn.

Image

Asur Turn 5
The Phoenix Guard champ challenged, the lord accepted, and that little punk absorbed every.single.wound. with his 4+ Ward, even through other Trickster's. The Terrorgheist rolled well for attacks, poor for Thunderstomp again, and the Phoenix Guard brutalized the remaining Black Knights and killed them. The Lord and Terrorgheist both crumbled down to near death... Meanwhile the Lions continued dying to Ghouls in the flank.

Image

VC Turn 5
a big 5/5 Magic Phase let me two dice spell-spam the Lord and Terrorgheist back up to nearly full wounds. My rolls heated up, my opponent's Ward Saves cooled down, and both the Vamp Lord and Monster hacked the Phoenix Guard down to less than 5 models and broke them. Meanwhile, the Ghouls and Hexwraiths finished off the Lions.


Image

My opponent had lost:

-Everything!

I had lost:

-5 Dire Wolves
-5 Dire Wolves
-Spirit Host
-9 Black Knights with full command, Banner of the Barrows

Reflections:
This was a very valuable learning game for seeing some of the weaknesses of a footslogging, combined arms High Elf list.

-For one, forests and other sources of Ballistic Skill Modifiers are highly dangerous. That's definitely something to be aware of during deployment, and my opponent should have picked a corner or deployed further back so that I couldn't use the trees for cover.

-Don't get careless heaving dice at a single spell. One of the values of Shadow is that it has redundant threats in multiple phases of the game, and so a player shouldn't necessarily have to throw a lot of dice at a single cast unless it's worth the risk of miscasting. This is especially true for players who have the Book of Hoeth, since they can hit those high cast values using fewer dice.

-Shooting units have to be concentrated and preserved in order to kill redirectors. Being able to shoot at something like a Terrorgheist is important, but it's also important to kill enemy redirectors fast and take control of the Movement Phase. I didn't feel like there was a lot of focus with how those Reavers were used, and there's no reason they should die until they're ready to be committed to block an enemy charge. With 18 inches of Movement, it's easy to safely hide them behind your own lines until they're necessary.

-Negating the re-rolls of a Vampire Lord or other ASF killer is a huge defensive asset. If a High Elf player can prioritize Vanhel's as a Dispel, he can really reduce the combat effectiveness of the Red Fury Lord. If it hasn't been for my magic supremacy and the Terrorgheist also, the Lord and his bus would have actually died to the the Phoenix Guard.

-Any unit with Banner of the World Dragon can be such a key counter to various high-profile threats. That being said, the fact that we can no longer easily access Magical Attacks in close combat means they still have to be careful of Ethereals. I think my opponent would have been really happy with the Reaver Bow in this matchup, not just to put quick hurt on the Terrorgheist, but also to snipe Spirit Hosts easily.
Warden of Tor Galadh
Jimmy
Centurion
Posts: 3307
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#368 Post by Jimmy »

Wow, that was brutal! :shock:
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog
Ether Dude
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#369 Post by Ether Dude »

I think your opponent was shaken by the loss of the archmage and was excessively cautious in turn 2.

1) It looks like the PG have a flank charge on the terrorgheist, and if he's unwilling to commit there, then the spears are in easy charge range of the front. With the sisters as depleted as they were, it seems like using them to redirect the black knights while the spears and PG took out the TG would have been the way to go.

2) The frost phoenix was his only real answer to the hexwraiths, but he chose to send them after the vampire, who's presumably s5 after the -1 from blizzard aura, so not a huge hit. I suppose the asl is why he did that? Still, I think redirecting the bus with sisters and archers and spears would have been a better bet.

3) You made a mistake on the left that your opponent did not punish you for. Had he charged the host with the FP, he could have set it up to overrun into the HW, or at least block their charge path (OR is better). Then, he can just run the reavers up in front of the dire wolves and force you to charge. It's a bad choice for you either way, since standing still keeps the ghouls out of the game, but so does charging. That gives the bird enough time to get the HW down to a manageable size in time for the lions to deal with the zombies and ghouls. Admittedly, I think ghouls win that fight so after the TG was done, he'd probably want to turn and face the left.

I agree that his deployment was not good. I'd have set up shooting on the left, the lions and helms in the middle and the PG/reavers on the right. That forces the bus through the woods or up the middle of the shooting kill zone, and reavers are there to make life difficult in pretty short order.
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#370 Post by Ferny »

Nice bat rep, although I have to admit to cheering on the (sadly beleaguered) high elves.

Couple of comments on your HE roster:

I think the naked archmage looks really viable if you're skilled at moving him into bunkers at the right time. I think he also works well with a 'sit back and shoot' infantry list, where you take out the chaff/redirectors early and let them advance to you, keeping the might of your PG/WL blocks ready to meet their main threats. And given that you've got a reasonable focus on shooting (archers/RBT/sisters) I agree that Shadow does look like a good lore. By going naked you're giving yourself 3 extra PG. I've been trying the Loremaster and so far really enjoying his ability to throw out MM early and combat buffs late, plus being armoured/warded vs combat and adding a bit of bite; he really does seem to have a different role, being capable of issueing/taking challenges and helping combats, and as such I give him some ward...but when I switch to AM builds I think I'll go naked and boost the infantry numbers directly. RE: Shadow, although it has Mindrazor, I think it's real strength in your list is with shooting. I've got a similar set up, but instead of RBT and big sisters flaming DPs and small sisters; for a lower shooting list with good combat blocks something like heavens or life might be better...but I'll comment more when I get there in games.

Similarly, the Lv 1 looks very viable. Rather than boosting to Lv 2, would you consider the Fury of Khaine ring? It's cheap and chearful, but with Shadow and Iceshard you actually don't have any direct damage dealing capability for early game and are relying entirely on BS shooting. Yes, there's pit and -D3T, but nothing to actually put the hurt on directly.

I like the BSB build, but would you consider switching dragonbane gem for dragon armour and enchanted shield. 5+ in combat vs 3+/6++ is a big difference, and you still get 2++ vs flaming. I don't have my book to hand, but the only cost difference is that between heavy and dragon armour, whcih isn't too bad on a noble IIRC. I think this would be better, and unlike the ring suggestion, should be easily affordable. Edit: realised the obvious; you could pay for it by replacing the halberd (which you'd need to do); so you're making a basically straight decision about 3xS5 re-rollable A with 5+ armour or 3xS4 re-rollable with 3+ armour. On a BSB especially, and in a unit which shouldn't be seeing to much fighting, I'd go for S4 and 3+ myself.
Last edited by Ferny on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#371 Post by SpellArcher »

Tethlis wrote: I didn't feel like there was a lot of focus with how those Reavers were used, and there's no reason they should die until they're ready to be committed to block an enemy charge. With 18 inches of Movement, it's easy to safely hide them behind your own lines until they're necessary.
Agree here. Faced a lot of shooting in my last game and simply hid my Glade Riders. When the enemy light troops advanced the Riders came out and countered them.
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#372 Post by Ferny »

Question about silver helms. How do you find they are performing? What role do you use them for. I haven't quite cracked this, though I completly agree that they attract more attention than they deserve.
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#373 Post by Tethlis »

Thanks guys. Apologies for the slow reply and lack of updates... I've been getting in some games lately, but a lot of them haven't been High Elf related at all. I have a couple of buddies prepping for the Quake City Rumble in San Francisco, one of the best events in the Western United States, so I've been running some different armies to help them prep a bit. I unfortunately won't be going... The registration for the event was back in January, and there was a lot that was going to be up in the air this summer (employment status, living situation, relationship, etc.) so I didn't feel I could commit to it. I sure as hell wish I had though...

Anyway, to answer questions:

@Ferny
The Silver Helms don't do a lot, to be perfectly honest, but they're great at letting everything else in the list do something. As fragile as they are, and as bleh as Strength 5 Attacks are, they're still very mobile and hit reasonably hard. They can clear away all but the heaviest chariots, kill warmachines, flank units, and even bait out charges in the opening turns. They're also good for drawing spells and warmachine fire, killing wounded monsters, absorbing charges from crap that doesn't have a lot of static Combat Resolution, and chasing down late-game Victory Points. The important thing is to manage your expectations and help identify a different role for them every game, depending on who you're fighting against. Unlike Phoenix Guard, who will always want to be wading into combat with something nasty, or Sisters, who want to be shooting at Regen stuff or Ethereals, the gameplan for Silver Helms changes a lot. Their mobility and durability is a useful flexible asset though.

Regarding your comments on my list: I almost wish I had a more dedicated combat character, like a Prince, Loremaster or Anointed of Asuryan, just so I could use the Shadow Lore attribute to more easily bail the Archmage out of trouble if she gets caught in combat. Since all my characters are squishy, this isn't really a viable plan, but I really like keeping the characters cheap to be able to fit so many other assets into the list. I'm still musing on the Loremaster, and may go back to him some day for variety. I'm a firm believer though in playing a list to death, and not tampering with things too much until I face a really hard counter that the list can't deal with.

For the Level 1, the bound Ring is tempting, but the Lore attribute largely goes to waste. If I had it, I feel I'd be tempted to try and run him in the Phoenix Guard or something equally crazy to juice up the Ward Save, and I just know I'd regret it :D. Having a bit more ranged punch in the magic phase wouldn't hurt though.

Dragon Armor and Enchanted Shield would be great, but it comes down (in part) to a points thing on the one hand and a killing power thing on the other hand. My hope with this setup is that the stand-and-shoot with Reaver Bow, followed by the three Strength 5, could critically hurt or kill anything that made it to the backline. Since I regularly see Pegasus Knights, Chimeras and some of those other backline threats, having Strength 5 versus Strength 4 makes a big difference. Overall, I think your suggestion is a really good one that I will playtest in the near future.

@Ether Dude
Good observations in that VC game, and I agree that my opponent got too conservative after losing his Magic Phase.

1) The diagram is a bit off there, the Phoenix Guard did indeed have a charge on the Terrorgheist but it was a long one. I did expect a charge from the Spears, and I think it would have been a reasonable move on my opponent's part to keep the Terrorgheist out of his backline for one more turn but as you mentioned I think he felt too timid without Shadows to support him.

2) I think my opponent was starting to Panic a bit, so committed the Phoenix in the hope of pinning the Lord and trying to buy some breathing room to take down other things. I think he figured the Lions would tie up the Hexwraiths if necessary, but he failed to take into account that I had more unengaged combat threats than he did so I could more easily afford to have a block tied up than he could. I believe he thought the Vamp Lord was at Strength 6 with Sword of Might, rather than his actual Strength 7 with Ogre Blade, meaning I was easily wounding on 4+ rather than the 5+ he thought I'd need. The Phoenix play wasn't a bad one, based on that assumption... If the Phoenix could live through the Vamp Lord, and Thunerstomp the Zombies to regain some Static Combat Res and hold through the combat, he bought himself some time for the Phoenix Guard to eventually close with the Black Knight Bus. Unfortunately it didn't pan out for him, but I can understand his logic.

@SpellArcher
Yeah you got it, Reavers are hyper vulnerable to basic shooting and magic missiles, so it's always a good idea to keep them hidden until they're needed most. Just because they have Vanguard doesn't mean they have to use to get within arrow range of your opponent!
Warden of Tor Galadh
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#374 Post by Tethlis »

Just a quick shoutout, but congratulations to my Santa Barbara Wargaming clubmate Taylor Shiells for a strong performance at the Quake City Rumble. The QCR is the one of, if not the most notable tournament in California (for all you overseas guys, remember that California is bigger than most European countries) and the QCR is a field of 120+ players so competition is very fierce. I believe Taylor went 4/0/1, scored 2nd or 3rd for Battle Points, missing out on Best General by just a couple of points I believe. I would have loved to be at that one, but things have been a little tight this year so I don't think a 5-hour roadtrip and three days in a San Francisco hotel were in the cards. Hopefully next year though! He mentioned the field was pretty thick with Warriors of Chaos (no surprise) and I think I could have thrown them a nice curveball with all the WoC practice games I've been getting in. Apparently there's been a lot of talk about how High Elves have no solution to WoC, so I'm really sorry to have missed out on that trip :D .

As far as Batreps are concerned, I hope to be getting in some games against the new Lizardmen soon. I have at least four local Lizardmen generals all raring to go, but they're all so hungry to try Monster-oriented lists that they won't get anything on the table until they've got those new kits built. I have my doubts as to whether that stuff is actually any good, but I guess that's what we'll see when we get models on the table. I'll update as soon as the games are played...
Warden of Tor Galadh
Malossar
Something Cool
Posts: 2309
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:21 pm
Location: Northern, California USA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#375 Post by Malossar »

Not to be creepy but if you're interested in traveling to some Bay Area Tournaments we could always spilt a hotel room! I live 3 and a half hours north of the bay in Redding, CA so when we manage to drive down I'm almost always looking to spilt the bill!
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
Image
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#376 Post by Tethlis »

Malossar Dragonborne wrote:Not to be creepy but if you're interested in traveling to some Bay Area Tournaments we could always spilt a hotel room! I live 3 and a half hours north of the bay in Redding, CA so when we manage to drive down I'm almost always looking to spilt the bill!
Hey, that's great. Another clubmate grew up in Redding, and we've stayed there on our way up to gaming events in Seattle on a couple of occasions. I don't know the dates for the next Bay Area Open or QCR, but any chance to meet other gamers and save a buck isn't a bad thing.
Warden of Tor Galadh
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#377 Post by Ferny »

Tethlis wrote: @Ferny
The Silver Helms don't do a lot, to be perfectly honest, but they're great at letting everything else in the list do something. As fragile as they are, and as bleh as Strength 5 Attacks are, they're still very mobile and hit reasonably hard. They can clear away all but the heaviest chariots, kill warmachines, flank units, and even bait out charges in the opening turns. They're also good for drawing spells and warmachine fire, killing wounded monsters, absorbing charges from crap that doesn't have a lot of static Combat Resolution, and chasing down late-game Victory Points. The important thing is to manage your expectations and help identify a different role for them every game, depending on who you're fighting against. Unlike Phoenix Guard, who will always want to be wading into combat with something nasty, or Sisters, who want to be shooting at Regen stuff or Ethereals, the gameplan for Silver Helms changes a lot. Their mobility and durability is a useful flexible asset though.
I've just switched from 9 Silver Helms with st and mus to 2x5 no command. It's almost a straight swap points wise but I think it'll give me more flexibility. I think they can perform their roles just as effectively as a single, larger unit, but offer much more flexibility in terms of targeting, drops, flank-charges, resiliance to searing doom. Is that something you've tried/would consider? I've not been that impressed with them (9-man unit) but as you say they have freed up the rest of the list to perform.
For the Level 1, the bound Ring is tempting, but the Lore attribute largely goes to waste. If I had it, I feel I'd be tempted to try and run him in the Phoenix Guard or something equally crazy to juice up the Ward Save, and I just know I'd regret it :D. Having a bit more ranged punch in the magic phase wouldn't hurt though.
Forget the lore attribute - most bound items don't have anything so useful so just treat it for what it is - mobile chaff clearance. As a bonus it gives you a pip of ward. As it happens I have been running this in my pheonix guard as default because it is quite a short range spell so I need it in a unit which is moving forwards and this makes most sense to take advantage of the attribute for a turn or two (despite what I just said). I made the mistake of lumping both my casters in the BotWD lions once, which got locked in combat and I lost access to all my magic missiles so its nice to have the backup mage in a different unit just in case. I also intend to jump him out of the unit in advance of any charges if possible...but if he does get stuck (and killed) in combat he is partially expendable; if he's burnt his scroll, burnt some chaff, and maybe cast a spell or two then he's done a lot of his job already. I don't know where you'd get the points from, but c'mon, it's cheap as chips if you wanna give it a go. I think it would support your shooting phase really well. Only down side is that shadow is PD heavy, but again, it's only 1 dice and it is enough of a threat that it could draw a DD.
Dragon Armor and Enchanted Shield would be great, but it comes down (in part) to a points thing on the one hand and a killing power thing on the other hand. My hope with this setup is that the stand-and-shoot with Reaver Bow, followed by the three Strength 5, could critically hurt or kill anything that made it to the backline. Since I regularly see Pegasus Knights, Chimeras and some of those other backline threats, having Strength 5 versus Strength 4 makes a big difference. Overall, I think your suggestion is a really good one that I will playtest in the near future.
Cool - keep us posted on how this pans out for you. It's fun seeing armies like this one evolve :)
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Malossar
Something Cool
Posts: 2309
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:21 pm
Location: Northern, California USA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#378 Post by Malossar »

Tethlis wrote:
Malossar Dragonborne wrote:Not to be creepy but if you're interested in traveling to some Bay Area Tournaments we could always spilt a hotel room! I live 3 and a half hours north of the bay in Redding, CA so when we manage to drive down I'm almost always looking to spilt the bill!
Hey, that's great. Another clubmate grew up in Redding, and we've stayed there on our way up to gaming events in Seattle on a couple of occasions. I don't know the dates for the next Bay Area Open or QCR, but any chance to meet other gamers and save a buck isn't a bad thing.

I think the BAO is now officially the Las Vegas Open and was a really terrible event this last year. If y'all are going up to seattle let me know. You can crash here over night and I'd love to split gas and room up north! Hell my Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, and Grandparents all live in Tacoma so we might be able to swing some free board there.
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
Image
Ptolemy
Posts: 2027
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#379 Post by Ptolemy »

- Mal/Tethlis - If you guys ever decide to give the NE gaming scene a shout let me know. Quite a few awesome tournaments here with large turnouts. Expect comp though.

@ tethlis- awesome reports. Ive been lurking the thread. Question. If you had to drop the WLs or PG, which would it be? Also, if you were running PG as your lone infantry block ( say with a helm bus) would you go World Dragon or Razor Standard? I can see arguments for both.

-Jay
[quote]Tethlis: "Most GW female sculpts tend to look like a surly transgender woman of the night, and it would be nice to avoid that if possible."[/quote]
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#380 Post by Tethlis »

Ptolemy wrote:- Mal/Tethlis - If you guys ever decide to give the NE gaming scene a shout let me know. Quite a few awesome tournaments here with large turnouts. Expect comp though.

@ tethlis- awesome reports. Ive been lurking the thread. Question. If you had to drop the WLs or PG, which would it be? Also, if you were running PG as your lone infantry block ( say with a helm bus) would you go World Dragon or Razor Standard? I can see arguments for both.

-Jay
Good questions. I've actually been contemplating them a bit in the last couple of days, when the idea came up in your RBT thread. I think the real appeal of Phoenix Guard over White Lions is that the Phoenix Guard don't really need to be baby sat, and can take on so much without needing help. The ability to eat Impact Hits, breath weapons, Thunderstomps (natural enemies of White Lions) and still keep going is great insurance. If I were to go with only one block though, I think it would be the Lions for BotWD and hitting power. If you run a Helm Bus, and the Helm Bus gets bogged down, then having something like Lions that can flatten enemy Monstrous Cav, regular Cav and Monsters pretty quickly could be useful for you. I think Phoenix Guard could do just fine on their own, but I would worry that a list focused around Helms/PG would lack enough high Strength attacks to handle all the threats that the game is leaning towards these days.

That being said, if you did run PG as your only block, I think the Razor Standard is pretty much mandatory (especially in light of the fact that you'll need them to pull a ton of weight against a lot of threats.) I really don't think you can do without it... Otherwise 1+ Save Monstrous Cav, or 2+ Save Cav Busses are just too hard to hack through and really reduce the ability of the Phoenix Guard to win combats. It is a real shame to miss out on BotWD as a hard counter to Death Magic and Miscast damage, but I think you'll only be nervous there if your Meta leans towards such things.


On other topics:
I got to watch the new Lizardmen in action today, though I didn't get to play against them. A few thoughts:

-I was pleased to watch how much less mobile the Salamanders are with their breath weapon. I think they'll be much less devastating to us now.
-The Lizards really struggled versus Nurgle Chariots, Warriors and Chaos Knights (no surprise there with their fairly low strength and low WS.)
-The Lizards had a hard time getting through armor. 3+ Chariots, 1+ Cav/Moncav were ugly business.
-I think the ability to know all default spells will be important for alleviating all of the above. The range of Augments/Hexes/Direct Damage is important for countering a lot of the issues they have trouble with.
-Big units of Kroxigor have a lot of potential. I can see whole Lizardmen forces benefiting from multiple casts of Wildform, and this is especially true for Kroxigor. Strength 8/Toughness 5/4+ Armor is impressive.
-The support units (Troglodon, Jungle Swarms) can have decent potential but largely strike me as a trap. Best to spend those points on fundamentally useful killing units like Camo Skinks, Temple Guard, Kroxigor, or even Cold One Riders as long as they have 2+ Saurus characters accompanying them.
-The Skink Cloud seems very important for controlling matchups and keeping monsters away from infantry. Low Initiative means you don't want your Lizards getting Alpha Struck by something that hits hard at high Initiative.

For High Elves against Lizardmen:
-Simple Silverhelm units will be important for clearing Skinks. The long threat range and 2+ Save will be invaluable for clearing paths through all of them without simply dying a lot.
-Shooting, as usual, will be valuable for removing key elements and protecting our backline. I also wouldn't be afraid to commit Maiden Guard or Archers to combat, weathering the Stand-and-shoot if it gives them a chance to decisively smash Skinks and help trigger Panic among them.
-Their low Weapon Skill is a nice buff for players running WS Hexes/Debuffs. I think our infantry will significant outclass theirs assuming magic support to be roughly even.
-I'm liking White Lions here. Good resilience to Skink shooting, lack of re-rolls isn't a huge issue since they hit most things on a 3+, and Strength 6 overrides good Saurus Toughness and decent armor.
-I'll try to remember to use "satellite" deployment around RBTs and shooting units, to help insulate them from Camo Skinks and hopefully get off at least one round of shooting since I think RBTs and Sisters are a good counter to Camo Skinks if they get a chance to shoot. The effective 24 inch threat range on Camo Skinks makes this unlikely though.

Hopefully will get to try my hand against them on Tuesday.
Warden of Tor Galadh
User avatar
Sackree
Posts: 579
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Fights against HE using VC! 6/10 update

#381 Post by Sackree »

Some very interesting points about the new lizards, I'm yet to see them.

I can see metal becoming the go to lore for slanns based on your analasis, it takes care of the armour problem and enchated blades makes up for the low WS there combat units have.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=45855]Charge of the Loremaster - Army Blog[/url]
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#382 Post by Tethlis »

I got my Dark Elves out today and got in a couple of games with their new list.

Game 1

-Level 4 with Dispel Scroll, Cloak of Twilight, rides a Dark Steed, Lore of Shadow
-Master w/ Sword of Might, heavy armor, Enchanted Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dawnstone, battle standard
-5 Dark Riders w/ Musician, shields, repeater crossbows
-5 Dark Riders w/ Musician, shields, repeater crossbows
-30 Witch Elves w/ full command, Razor Standard
-6 Shades w/ great weapon
-6 Shades w/ great weapon
-RBT
-RBT
-RBT
-30 Executioners w/ full command
-5 Warlocks
-7 Warlocks
-Kharibdyss
-Kharibdyss


Vs

-Level 4 w/ Tali of Preservation, Book of Hoeth, Lore of Shadow
-Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll, Lore of Heavens
-Noble w/ Sword of Might, Shield of the Merwyrm, heavy armor, battle standard
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-10 Archers w/ musi
-9 Silverhelms w/ fc
-30 Phoenix Guard w/ fc, Razor Standard
-28 White Lions w/ fc, Banner of the World Dragon
-10 Sisters
-Frost Phoenix

The lack of RBTs really hamstrung my opponent. The general presence of Shades, Dark Riders, etc. provided excellent table control. The Sisters shot down one K-Beast, but spent the rest of the game trying to gun down a Warlock unit hiding in a forest which threatened them with Doombolt every turn. The Soft Cover and Ward Save made the Warlocks amazingly good at soaking up their damage, making them a non-issue all game (and my opponent kept throwing dice to stop that Doombolt, giving me magic control in other areas of the table). With the easy table control, I hexed down the WS on the White Lions and put the Executioners into the White Lions to wipe them all out (re-rolls versus no re-rolls is so cruel), then double-teaming the Phoenix Guard with Witches in the front, Executioners in the flank to end the game. The Phoenix spent the opening turns hiding from bolt throwers before chasing after my chaff and eventually getting brought down with shooting. When my first K-beast was down to 2 Wounds from Sisters, I dashed it at the Silverhelms to try and draw out a charge. My opponent wanted the Sisters free to shoot Warlocks and Shades, so took the bait, killed the K-beast but was woefully out of position. The other K-Beast charged and eventually destroyed the Silverhelms, which seemed like a fair trade to me since the Silver Helms were really threatening my fast units and redirectors in the center of the table. A fair piece trade. Overall, this ended in a big win.

Top performers:
-Warlocks w/ Sorc: Really a solid unit. Great mobility and the ward Save gives them good survivability, and they are very solid in close combat as well (obviously not when the Sorc was present, but they're great without the Sorc). I never felt my Supreme Sorc was in danger, even when the Frost Phoenix broke loose and was flying around a bit. The extreme protection of having a Sorc running with fast cavalry is amazing. That was a great Sorc bunker, and having the extra range of hexes and more direct damage is a constant threat for my opponent's Dispel Dice. It really forces the opponent to guess with their Dispel Dice. Did I mention how nice it is to have the extra channeling attempts?

-Shades: These guys always remind me of what Shadow Warriors could and should be. Their high BS, the 2x shots per model with Armor Piercing, the different weapon options with ASF... They're just so good, really a top-notch choice and a very lethal shooting or backline combat threat that High Elves should always anticipate. A very great unit.


Game 2


I then used the same list again

vs

-Level 4 Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Sword of Striking, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Scaly Skin, Chaos Armor, Breath Weapon, Soul Stealer, etc. etc.
-BSB of of Tzeentch on disc, Talisman of Preservation, Third Eye, etc. etc.
-Throgg
-8 Trolls
-Chariot of Nurgle
-Chariot of Nurgle
-5 Hounds
-5 Hounds
-5 Hounds
-21 Warriors of Nurgle w/ fc, halberds
-Gorebeast Chariot of Nurgle
-Chimera w/ Fiery Breath, Regeneration
-4 Bloodcrushers

The Daemon Prince ate a bolt on Turn 1, lost two wounds and spent a lot of the game hiding from them. The RBTs rolled abysmally, but at least were good psychologically and managed to weaken the Chimera over two turns of shooting but couldn't get the last Wound from the Daemon Prince or Chimera themselves. I do miss having somethign to negate Regeneration at range in this list, and I just hate bolt throwers sometimes (though I think they're so crucial). Shades and Dark Riders provided good board control here, no worries. A chariot and the Tzeentch BSB charged into the Executioners to pin them while the Warriors maneuvered to come in and beat face, but I broke out of that one when I killed the Chariot (not surprising) but also KBed the Tzeentch Character and his Ward came up a 2. The Witch Elves held up the bloodcrushers for a turn while I killed everything else, though I did hope that my full 50 Attacks would have managed more than 1 Wound in the first round of combat :/. I forced 20 saves but my opponent defied probaility, and the Crushers were reinforced by a Gorebeast chariot. No problem though, since the K-Beasts maneuvered for good charges while all this was going on. One finished the Chimera with a counter-charge, the other tore up the Bloodcrushers in a flank charge. The Crushers held, the Daemon Prince swooped in, rolled a nice Plaguewind up my flank (ugh) but thankfully the Ward Saves of the Warlocks and good Toughness of most of my remaining troops shrugged it off. The Daemon Prince and Crushers killed the K-beast, but then the Executioners charged in to finish them both off for a pile of points. Throgg and his trolls ate a Pit of Shades early on to lose most of their number, and were forced to play tag with my Fast Cav most of the game. This ended in a big win as well.

Top performers:
-Executioners w/ BSB: They only had 4 models left by the time the dust cleared, but with help from shooting and magic they had killed a chariot, a Disc BSB, 21 Nurgle Warriors, the Bloodcrushers, the Daemon Prince and eventually Throgg. They had a hand in pretty much every major combat on the table, though admittedly they had a lot of help from magic, shooting and the K-Beasts. Still, their killing power was great.

-K-Beasts: These guys are modest, both in terms of hitting power and survivability, and really shouldn't be counted on for much. That being said, watching a Chaos player get nervous when you announce Strength 7 is frightfully gratifying, and there were a number of Fear and Break tests that were tipped with the K-Beasts forcing re-rolls. They're not 7th edition Hydras, they're not current Chimeras, but they are a great cheap support piece with a good place in the current meta. I was very skeptical of their fragility, but I think if you recognize their cheap point cost and bear it in mind when using them, it's no different than using most other Elven units.

Honorable mention:
-In both games the bolt throwers weren't huge, they rolled well below average (no surprise, I'm used to this with High Elves) but their psychological impact was all that could be expected and more. Both the Frost Phoenix and the Daemon Prince spent a lot of each game hiding, when they could have easily taken their chances coming forward and potentially tipped some critical combats.

Worth noting:
-Dark Elf magic isn't better. The Sacrificial Dagger and Tome of Furion don't do it for me, because I don't believe Dark Elves have a good Sac Dagger unit anymore, and I don't believe Dark Magic is good enough to justify taking the Tome. This means High Elves are the superior magic users with Book of Hoeth. That being said, Warlocks add amazing magic redundancy with being able to cast the same spell or magic missile repeatedly, in addition to whatever primary lore is being utilized by a caster. It isn't a cascade of dice, but it does pretty much ensure you get off one good or powerful spell a turn. Redundancy is more powerful than dice volume these days; a redundant magic phase can't be easily stopped or contained, when you can repeatedly cast multiple spells that have a similar battlefield effect.

High Elf players:
Master your chaff, master your shooting, and be absolutely certain you use it to kill Dark Elves. I think DE vs HE games will be decided by who has the ranged presence and board control. Dark Elves have an edge with their Hatred, but High Elves can regain that advantage with the dominance of the Frost Phoenix. Use Silver Helms! 2+ Save on Core is really a strong advantage, in my opinion easily on part with having Witches in Core. It should be used to hunt down and kill those chaff units like Shades, Dark Riders, Warlocks that Dark Elves need to own the table. Kill those RBTs too.

-Witches as Core: They're big, their Frenzied, their fragile, they should not be any threat at all unless you've lost the redirector or shooting war. If they're getting into meaningful combats with you, then you're probably already lost control of your redirectors and the shooting phase. Otherwise, these should be very easy to ignore until you're ready to gather points from them. They're good, but they shouldn't be killing you unless you're already losing.

-Warlocks: Track these down with something quick that doesn't care about Strength 4 Attacks. Heavy Cavalry, a flying character or a Phoenix are all good candidates. These are worth good VP, they weaken the DE magic phase, and eradicating them keeps your backline safe. They're pretty durable with their Mobility and 4+ Ward, so shooting may not be a good solution since you'll need your shooting versus so many other factors in a Dark Elf list. Try to break them and run them down in combat.

-Dark Elf combat infantry: these need to be softened with range or debuffed before fighting them, because them keeping their re-rolls can break a High Elf unit's back if the DE block isn't properly prepped before you engage them.

-Dark Elf monsters: They're good, but they are there for support. They'll do some Wounds and thunderstomps, but they're not necessarily one-man armies in the same way that other monsters are. They're fragile, so handle them with your monster-killing list option of choice. Don't count on Pit of shades though, with their fairly good Initiative.
Warden of Tor Galadh
teep
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:56 pm
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#383 Post by teep »

Thanks for this, very insightful - I like that the new DE seem strong, though not unbalanced, and quite fun to play!
I know, it's still early stages, but how would you asses the strength of this book and how do you think our cousins new toolkit will affect your HE list design/play style?
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#384 Post by HERO »

teep wrote:Thanks for this, very insightful - I like that the new DE seem strong, though not unbalanced, and quite fun to play!
I know, it's still early stages, but how would you asses the strength of this book and how do you think our cousins new toolkit will affect your HE list design/play style?
Nothing actually.

I think HE can match or outfight DE in every phase. Tethlis and my list are nearly identical, and it'll do just fine vs. them.

Like what was previously said, just win the chaff war and you should be fine. The guy with the most chaff remaining gets to shoot and magic more, and this results in more damage to enemy units.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
Malossar
Something Cool
Posts: 2309
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:21 pm
Location: Northern, California USA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#385 Post by Malossar »

I'm wondering if my Archmage on Dragon + all mounted list wouldn't be bettter ran as dark elves. Other than that we're quite a nice mirror match (from what we can tell at this stage as I still believe it could be a little while before the book settles in).
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
Image
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#386 Post by Tethlis »

Malossar, I think the style you're describing would be great in some ways, more poor in others. Dark Riders form a great Core, and Warlocks are also a very capable and flexible combat cavalry unit that also boosts the Magic Phase significantly. I don't know what else you have in your list, but the Frost Phoenix enables more for us than the Dark Elf critters do for them, and we can run a Cav Bus/Cav List much better than they can since our heavy cavalry is cheaper, faster, more reliable, and available as either Core or Special depending on the point cost you want to spend. Similarly, the greatest asset they have in their basic armory (Sea Dragon Cloaks) don't provide much advantage for combat characters that have chosen to ride horses.

I've actually been giving more thought to the Cav Bus playstyle myself, because I think its speed, hitting power and general resilience is going to be a pretty strong challenge for Dark Elves. I still need to playtest my own HE list versus DE, and get in more games with the DE themselves, but so far I've been pleased with the power level of their book (about middling, comparable to HE in many ways but different.)
Warden of Tor Galadh
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#387 Post by HERO »

I've actually been giving more thought to the Cav Bus playstyle myself, because I think its speed, hitting power and general resilience is going to be a pretty strong challenge for Dark Elves. I still need to playtest my own HE list versus DE, and get in more games with the DE themselves, but so far I've been pleased with the power level of their book (about middling, comparable to HE in many ways but different.)
This right here. Without 3-4x RBT on the DE side, with Shades and Dark Riders with RXB, you might as well just hand them an easy win. With no Regen on either monster, both die before they get to swing vs. High Elves. Not so the case with the Frost Phoenix who can ride shotgun with our cav buses, and like our cavalry, we out-range and out-fight theirs without any issues.

In order for DE to be successful vs. HE, they have to be very reliant on their shooting to draw a positive chaff count or reduce the numbers on the Silver Helms/DP bus.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#388 Post by Tethlis »

HERO, great stuff that we're on the same page here. If he finds his way back to the boards, you should chat up Ptolemy on his thoughts. He's a big part of how I play my High Elves, I was really inspired by his army list approach and performance back when we were playing 8th edition games with our 7th edition book. I know he'd have interesting thoughts on the matter.

Overall though, while I don't think the execution of both books was flawless, I do see HE vs DE being a test of generalship and skill (assuming that players in such a matchup have adequately built their lists for chaff war/chaff removal.) Use of Vanguard, Scouts, shooting deployment, use of Augments/hexes to support that magic effort, etc. is going to be very key, as well as whether or not players find the openings to initiate combats before the chaff war is resolved. I see it as being a very interesting and dynamic cerebral matchup, which is exactly what I would hope the matchup to be. Hatred on DE is rough, but the advantages HE have with BotWD, 4+ Ward Phoenix Guard, Core 2+ Save Cav and Frost Phoenix almost makes it a wash in terms of great offensive killing power versus the resilient defensive assets of the High Elves.

I'm hoping to play the new DE with my HE tomorrow. If so, I'll do a full writeup and batrep for reference. I still consider myself in the HE camp here ;)
Warden of Tor Galadh
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#389 Post by HERO »

Learn how to use that stupid UniversalBattle tool and we can have as many HE vs. DE as you want :>
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
User avatar
John Rainbow
Posts: 3550
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Location: PA, USA

Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: Used my DE today, comments for HE player

#390 Post by John Rainbow »

Tethlis wrote:If he finds his way back to the boards, you should chat up Ptolemy on his thoughts
I haven't seen him for a while. I seem to remember him saying him and his wife were expecting their first child a while back...
Post Reply