Tethlis' Army Blog, The Old World

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Ferny
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#451 Post by Ferny »

To be fair, Tethlis (and lots of us) ran lists like this with the pheonix and had plenty of success. I still reckon it's a perfectly viable build - it's a great unit with great rules, and critically, with its 5++ ward ad 6W it is unlikely to die to one shot and could be a very frustrating target (it could still die of course). But if you're playing a sit-back game then you can try hiding it or marching it 20" out to protect it in plane sight by putting it right next to an enemy unit, and if you're doing a mad-dash forward then it can lead the charge. It's sad when they get obliterated, and it's a lot of points, but they've got to be one of the best combat monsters out there, so I think it's worth the risk.

And I say that as someone who's moving away from them (albeit, trying to learn a different style of play).
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#452 Post by Tethlis »

The responses so far are already good ones, but I'll chime in.

Regarding bolt throwers:
The most important thing was to simply manage my expectations where bolt throwers were concerned, and not expect them to perform miracles all by themselves. Relying on the single shot like a poor man's cannon is not an effective way to use it. Instead, I focus on using the Repeater Shot to primarily deplete infantry, clear chaff to establish board control, or kill monsters. Monsters and warmachines are particularly valuable targets, since they present major threats but also tend to have poor armor and are worth a lot of points-per-wound. Destroying a 170-point Dwarf Organ Gun by rolling three 6s to Wound with my Repeater Bolthrowers and bow shots can save my army a lot of pain.

Now, the Strength 6 shot can certainly be useful, but it can't be relied upon. I primarily use that mode when I really need to deplete a Monstrous Cavalry unit before it hits home, or want to kill a single model with high armor (Daemon Princes or flying Lords are the best example.) Once again, the probability of success tends to be low, but once enemy chaff is dead and their combat units are engaged, shooting at targets of opportunity is valuable.

The real key for making them effective is to also add other shooting units that can help provide support. Two bolt throwers is fine. Three is better. Three bolt throwers, plus a pile of Sisters of Avelorn, plus a character with Reaver Bow/Potion of Strength is great. The more missile fire you have, the more potent it becomes, and the more likely you are to remove the threat that you want in a given turn. For example, two bolt throwers targeting a warmachine at long range are only likely to score one wound (12 repeater shots hitting on a 4+, needing a 6 to Wound.) However, if you have the BSB use the Potion of Strength, the BSB fires three shots hitting on 3+, needing 3+ to Wound. Suddenly you're much closer to eliminating that warmachine in one turn.

Regarding the Phoenix:
As Curu said, the Phoenix is a great monster with great value but the problem lies in target saturation. A single Phoenix is a very obvious choice to shoot at. Opponents with cannons or Initiative-based nukes like Purple Sun now have something worth targeting. Pair that with bolt throwers, that are also vulnerable to those types of threats, and my opponent can now gain quite a few points off my list using tools that (otherwise) would be fairly useless for him when fighting a High Elf opponent without a Phoenix.

The thing I like most about the Phoenix is its ability to intercept and tie up a flying Lord for a turn or two, helping to give me some breathing room. I do miss that advantage, but there's also a good chance that my increased firepower can help handle those kinds of threats as well. Similarly, when fighting anyone with cannons, watching my opponent content themselves with killing bolt throwers is hilarious. Not only are the bolt throwers not worth a lot of VP, but I have enough bowshots in my list overall that killing a single bolt thrower doesn't necessarily deplete my shooting phase to a huge degree. I can still apply pressure with 20 Sisters, both of which are quite capable of tearing up combat threats with concentrated fire but really don't mind being shot with cannons since only 1 or 2 models are likely to die at a time.

With the Phoenix in the list though, not only does my shooting phase get weaker, but suddenly I give cannon-heavy opponents a target worth gunning for.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#453 Post by Velmates »

Great replies, guys. All three of you gave many things to think about.

It seems that I have played too few games recently, so statistic hasn't the time to overcome pure luck. I admit, I didn't play much against cannon heavy lists but my Phoenix only died once to a massive attention of blowpipes that poisoned him to oblivion. Some good dice with his ward draw the Lizard shooters nearly the whole game (he died in the 4th turn, I think) and everything else reached melee without being harmed from Skinks. Well... Maybe test him against some Empire or Dwarfes sometimes to see how it turns out...

I definitely see the point of using the repeater shot and I am almost always using it for myself. I know the psychological impact of them on the enemy's movement and like the result. For some reason they seem to never make it until the 3rd turn; they either get blown apart by a cannon, a comet or something else. Better them, than the rest of my army, I guess. Well, actually I think I should try more of them, like 3 or 4 and see how it goes.

That leaves the point with the Sisters... I like the unit of 10 but the lack of Swift Reform and just 24'' maximal range destroys some of their advantages. 10 are great and I love what they can achieve for my list but I don't... feel 20, if you know what I mean. They are such a fragile unit, even more than our other fragile units; they are amazing sometimes but have a hard time against some other things where they don't feel much better than core archers. Maybe because 10 is too few... Hmmm...

It seems there is a lot of testing ahead. Like it.
Thanks guys!
- Velmates

Check out [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63818]my painting blog[/url]!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#454 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ferny wrote:To be fair, Tethlis (and lots of us) ran lists like this with the pheonix and had plenty of success. I still reckon it's a perfectly viable build - it's a great unit with great rules, and critically, with its 5++ ward ad 6W it is unlikely to die to one shot and could be a very frustrating target (it could still die of course). But if you're playing a sit-back game then you can try hiding it or marching it 20" out to protect it in plane sight by putting it right next to an enemy unit, and if you're doing a mad-dash forward then it can lead the charge. It's sad when they get obliterated, and it's a lot of points, but they've got to be one of the best combat monsters out there, so I think it's worth the risk.

And I say that as someone who's moving away from them (albeit, trying to learn a different style of play).
A phoenix does not have 6 wounds my friend :) A cannon which gets through its ward save has one third of a chance to one-hit it.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#455 Post by Ferny »

Yeah, doh, spotted that on a re-read! But the cannon is still unlikely to one-shot it. It can do and sometimes will do, and of course, where there's one cannon usually there's two or three. But it's still a tough little critter to take out, as far as these things go :).
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#456 Post by sparkytrypod »

hey tethlis,

I see you have some wood elf battles on the go at the moment, you might put a link in your sig maybe or something else,....

I have found your battles very informative and im sure others wood (terrible pun)

just an idea!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#457 Post by Tethlis »

Good suggestion. I'll repost them here for reference, as well as link to my thread on Asrai.

My Wood Elf army blog (battle reports start on page 3): http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26264
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#458 Post by Tethlis »

Game 1 versus WoC:

I got in my first game with the new book versus Warriors of Chaos. From memory, my opponent was running the following:

-Chaos Lord of Tzeentch with halberd, Helm of Many Eyes, Other Trickster's Shard, Talisman of preservation, Soul Feeder, Flaming Breath, rides a barded Chaos Steed
-Exalted Hero with Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Mark of Nurgle, battle standard, rides a barded Chaos Steed
-Sorcerer of Tzeentch (Level 2) with Chaos Familiar, Dispel Scroll, Charmed Shield, Lore of Metal, rides a Barded Chaos Steed
-Chaos Warriors of Nurgle (18) with full command, halberds
-Chaos Chariot of Nurgle
-5 Warhounds
-5 Warhounds
-5 Warhounds
-Gorebeast Chariot of Nurgle
-Gorebeast Chariot of Nurgle
-12 Chaos Knights of Nurgle with full command
-4 Skullcrushers w/ musician

My list was:

-Level 4 with Acorn of the Ages, Elven Steed, Lore of Shadow
-Level 1 with Heavens, Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed
-BSB with Bow of Loren, Hail of Doom Arrow, light armor, shield, Asrai Spear, Elven Steed
-5 Glade Riders with Hagbane tips
-5 Glade Riders with Hagbane tips
-10 Dryads
-10 Glade Guard with musician, Hagbane tips
-10 Glade Guard with musician, Hagbane tips
-7 Scouts with musician, Hagbane tips
-7 Sisters of the Thorn with musician, standard, Lichebone Pendant
-7 Wild Riders with full command, shields
-21 Wildwood Rangers with full command, Gleaming Pennant
-10 Waywatchers
-10 Waywatchers

Terrain
Able to call upon four forests, I decided to set them up all along my table edge since I figured it was likely a lot of my troops would hug the back of it. I didn't want to risk the possibility of them scattering into my firing lines, inadvertently giving my opponent Soft Cover. One did indeed cruise 12 inches towards my opponent's DZ, but most stayed relatively tame.

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Deployment
One very, very interesting component of our army is that a lot of points start off the table, so even though we have a lot of drops it should be quite possible to score +1 for first turn. However, the lack of drops reminds me a bit of Dwarves: it forces us to commit pretty quickly, so using forests to create a firebase and sticking to it will be important. As units started hitting the table, my opponent screened his Knight bus with a unit of Hounds but it wouldn't be nearly enough... I laid my Glade Guard down in a corner, with my chaff and combat units ready to intercept anything coming across the table.

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Asrai Turn 1
I scored first turn, which ended up being pretty easy. I ran the Dryads forward to help bait some units towards me, leaving them just the point where the Gorebeasts and Knights would need exact average dice to make the charge. This meant I had a good chance of luring a unit or two in, ready to be counter-charged by Wild Riders and Rangers. Everything else basically shuffled to safety. With magic, Withering on the Knight bus immediately pulled a scroll, letting me Miasma a Gorebeast to further disrupt the movement of my opponent's lines.

Shooting was... Well it was spectacular. I cleared the screening hounds in front of the Knights and banged a Wound off a Gorebeast, then the Waywatchers stepped up and shot the full back rank off the Chaos Knights. My Scouts killed off the flank hound unit, who was out of BSB range, hoping to send them fleeing through the Core chariot with Panic. My opponent nailed his Panic test, but it was worth the effort.

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WoC Turn 1
Those arrows made my opponent nervous. He immediately declared a charge at the Dryads, knowing they had to hold and that he could hopefully leapfrog into my lines with an overrun. He made the charge, though the Gorebeasts failed (excellent.) Everything else came barreling forward. His magic was uneventful, with a low Winds roll that wasn't enough for him to try Final Transmutation. My opponent didn't roll too well, but that didn't stop him from murdering 7 Dryads and breaking them. He failed to catch, stopping an inch behind, which was perfect... The Dryads could rally and redirect him for another turn. The Knights would be easy meat for Waywatchers, but the unkillable Lord and characters inside the unit were a significant threat and I doubted I could handle them with shooting or combat. My best bet would be to kill off the Knights, everything else they had, and let the Lord have his way until I could focus my full attention on killing him.

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Asrai Turn 2
My opponent's movement had left a hole in his right flank that the Wild Riders could punch through. At this point, the entire army was dedicated to letting the Waywatchers do their job, and keeping my Sister unit + characters out of trouble. I threw the Wild Riders at the Core Nurgle Chariot,expecting a flee reaction that would let me redirect into the Crushers or Chaos Warriors. I expected the Wild Riders to be thrashed in such a combat, but I was hoping to shred either unit first and give me a chance of shooting it down lately. My opponent decided to hold though, and the Wild Riders made their charge.

A Glade Rider unit showed up, and I used it to block off a hound and Gorebeast unit from reaching the left-hand Waywatcher unit. The Dryads rallied, in a great position to redirect the Knight bus one for another turn and continue to buy time. The Sisters sprinted to the safety of the Crushers' flank, adding some javelin fire to the mix.

For magic, my opponent failed to stop Withering and broke concentration. His Knights were now in big trouble...

Letting loose, I killed the 7 remaining Chaos Knights with Waywatchers, absolutely shredding the unit at close range. The 25 Poison shots rolled well to finish the Gorebeast chariot, already wounded from Turn 1.

In combat, the Wild Riders plowed through the Nurgle Chariot, their Frenzy overrun taking them safely away from the Crushers.

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WoC Turn 2
With his Knight unit down to only characters, he charged into the Dryads to wipe them out for an easy overrun into the Wildwood Rangers. Combat was definitely the safest place for those characters to be. His other units kept marching forward, hoping to gets to grips with any of my relatively static units. His hope was to box in the Waywatchers, Glade Riders, and other units that were vulnerable in melee and start to recoup some points.

He came up with a strong magic phase, and I burned my scroll on Transmutation. He miscast Enchanted Blades, blasting a Wound off his Chaos Lord who rolled a 2 for his Ward Save. Perfect :p . In combat, despite the help of the wall I was defending, the back rank of WWR was torn up. However, I allocated everything I could at the Sorcerer and sneaked a couple Wounds through his armor to drop him. The WWR held on Steadfast.

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Asrai Turn 3
A transition turn, I brought the Wild Riders back into the fight for a future charge on the Crushers as my Waywatchers started priming them for combat with mroe arrows. The Sisters, completely safe now that the Sorcerer was dead, took up a position to lob more javelins. My second Glade Rider unit arrived, and I positioned it to block the Crusher charge and keep my Waywatchers safe once again. Irresistible at a 4-dice Withering attempt saw me lose a couple Sisters from the unit, but no other serious damage. Despite only a Toughness reduction of 1, the Waywatchers shot a pair of the Crushers off the table. In combat, the WWR lost another pile of models, leaving just enough to hold on Steadfast once again.

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WoC Turn 3
The Crusher's weren't in a good position. Either they would eat the Glade Riders and overrun for an easy rear charge by the Wild Riders, or they would reform and still eat a Wild Rider charge. My opponent at least opted to gather points from the Glade Riders and hope to overrun far enough to escape the Wild Riders, but without much luck. I was looking at an easy Rear Charge next turn. The Chaos Warriors continued to dash in the direction of my Glade Guard, skirting the forest, while the remaining Gorebeast Chariot plodded forward (it was too far away to charge the Waywatchers.) The Lord and BSB finished off the Wildwood Rangers, reforming to a position where they could charge the Waywatchers if they tried to skirt around the Gorebeast Chariot.

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Asrai Turn 4
A great turn. First, the Riders went into the rear of the Crushers. Still determined to preserve my Waywatchers, I walked a Glade Guard unit in front of the Lord and Exalted to block off their charge lane to the Watchers. I ran the remaining Glade Rider unit in front of the Chaos Warriors to keep them off the Wild Riders, if they overran into the Chaos Warrios' charge arc after finishing the Crushers. The Watchers then teamed up with the other Glade Guard unit to shoot down the Gorebeast Chariot, while the Sisters combined with the Glade Riders, Rangers and other Waywatchers to brutalize the Chaos Warriors at range. The Wild Riders annihilated both Bloodcrushers.

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WoC Turn 4
Once again, my opponent had no moves except to charge the redirectors offered to him. His characters hit the Glade Guard, the Chaos Warriors hit the Glade Riders, finishing them both off.

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Asrai Turn 5
Time was running out for my opponent. Dancing my Fast Cav out of his charge arcs again, I let loose with everything I had at the remaining dozen Warriors of Chaos and wiped them out.

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WoC Turn 5
With only his two characters and a unit of Hounds left, my opponent charged them both at the nearest Glade Guard since I had run everything else out of range or out of his charge arc. His hope was that I would flee the charge, giving him a chance of catching me and putting a little distance between his remaining units and all my bows. I held, wanting to keep him as close as possible, and the Glade Guard died. However, I was perfectly set up for a great final turn...

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Asrai Turn 6
I didn't want to risk charging the Chaos Lord in combat... I wasn't convinced Wild Riders could get past his protection, so I sent them at the Hounds with an easy charge. I 6-diced Withering, my opponent couldn't stop it, and rolled a 6 to debuff Toughness. A hail of arrows later, plus a couple missed Ward Saves, and the table was clear ;)

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I had lost:

-5 Glade Riders with Hagbane tips
-5 Glade Riders with Hagbane tips
-10 Dryads
-10 Glade Guard with musician, Hagbane tips
-10 Glade Guard with musician, Hagbane tips
-21 Wildwood Rangers with full command, Gleaming Pennant

My opponent had lost:

-Everything

Safe to say, this one went to the Wood Elves. Afterthoughts to come later, but it was a terrifically fun game for me. Frustrating for my opponent, though I can't say I have much sympathy for WoC players.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#459 Post by Tethlis »

Game 2 versus Dwarves

Hey all. I had three more Asrai-related games today... One using Asrai versus Dwarves, one using Asrai versus Ogres, and one using my High Elves against an Asrai opponent. All very informative games. I'll try to write them up as quickly as I can churn out images on Battle Chronicler and get them written up.

Here's the one v Dwarves. I ran the same list I used last game:


-Level 4 with Acorn of the Ages, Elven Steed, Lore of Shadow
-Level 1 with Heavens, Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed
-BSB with Bow of Loren, Hail of Doom Arrow, light armor, shield, Asrai Spear, Elven Steed
-5 Glade Riders with Hagbane tips
-5 Glade Riders with Hagbane tips
-10 Dryads
-10 Glade Guard with musician, Hagbane tips
-10 Glade Guard with musician, Hagbane tips
-7 Scouts with musician, Hagbane tips
-7 Sisters of the Thorn with musician, standard, Lichebone Pendant
-7 Wild Riders with full command, shields
-21 Wildwood Rangers with full command, Gleaming Pennant
-10 Waywatchers
-10 Waywatchers

My opponent (I believe) was rocking:

-Runesmith with shield, RoStone, Fiery Ring of Thori, Spellbreaker
-BSB with great weapon, MRoGrungni, 2x RoSlowness
-Master Engineer w/ great weapon, RoStone
-21 Quarellers w/ fc, great weapons
-21 Quarellers w/ fc, great weapons
-25 Ironbreakers w/ fc, RoStoicism
-21 Hammerers w/ fc
-Gyrocopter
-Gyrocopter
-Grudge Thrower w/ RoAccuracy, RoPenetrating
-Cannons w/ RoForging, RoBurning
-Organ Gun w/ RoAccuracy, RoForging
-6 Rangers

Terrain
I distributed the Acorn woods pretty evenly, just so I would have some extra cover versus Organ Guns and Quarellers. The scatters there were pretty tame. My opponent picked side and scored the hill for himself, which was fine by me. I threw down my free forest directly opposite the hill to help my troops survive missile fire but still be in range of his warmachines.

Image

Deployment
It's rare that someone has fewer drops than Dwarves, but I actually was done before my opponent which was immensely valuable for getting first turn. Deployment choices here were easy: Glade Guard, with their Poison, are ideal for killing off warmachines. They went down behind the walls in my DZ. I also dropped a unit of Waywatchers there, since I didn't want them getting picked off easily by the Organ Gun or Gyro Steam/Bombs. My Sisters + Characters hugged the backline to stay out of Organ Gun and Crossbow range, fanning out wide to minimize damage from the Cannon and Grudge Thrower if my opponent tried to snipe my characters. I vanguarded the Wild Riders up so I could quickly get to my opponent's flank, and then we were off to the races...

Image

Asrai Turn 1
The Wild Riders dashed to position for charges on his warmachines or Gyros, lots of options there. The Dryads ran forward as cannon fodder (not good for much else, but they do their job well :p ). I positioned my casters in the woods, rolling up a 3/2 magic phase with one channel. My opponent scrolled Pit of Shades on his Organ Gun, but failed to stop Miasma to reduce its accuracy. I was fairly certain I would kill it this turn, but didn't want it tearing into my troops in case my shooting failed. No such luck for my opponent though, as the Organ Gun went down in a hail of Poison arrows from the first two Glade Guard volleys. I threw everything I had left at the Gyro, but saw some poor rolls and only managed a Wound.

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Dawi Turn 1
I knew that the Wild Riders would be eating Steam or a bombing run this turn, but I wasn't overly concerned... 50% chance to Wound, with a 5+/6++ to save meant I should lose some bodies and still have enough left to run over the Gyrocopter or a warmachine depending on the charge my opponent offered me. His dice reminded me that nothing is for certain, as he scored 6 Wounds, I saved two of them, and knocked the Riders down to three models. The Grudge Thrower scored a direct hit to blow up half the Wildwood Rangers, while some indifferent crossbow fire ground down a few Dryads (that's what they're there for!)

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Asrai Turn 2
So my Wild Riders were beat up, but should still have plenty of momentum to kill a wounded Gyrocopter right? I declared that charge, ran the Dryads into the open to give an easy charge to the Dwarves and help draw them into my lines, and ran the WWR to hide behind the building and preserve their points. Some might wonder why I'd want to draw the Dwarves in by offering them a charge on the Dryads. The answer is that I wanted to bring them into short range as well as overextending them from the protection of MRoGrungni, hoping to break up their formation a little bit and allow me to pour accurate arrows into a unit at short range while denying them their Ward Save. One Glade Rider unit showed up, letting me apply a bit more pressure to hit backline.

A low dice round this turn saw me attempt Withering on the Quarellers on 3 dice, which my opponent promptly Dispelled with double 6s. Ah well. Shooting didn't disappoint though, as I shot the Gyrocopter and the cannon off the table (the Grudge Thrower was Obscured by the lip of the hill).

My Wild Riders, for all their hitting power and re-rolls, only managed a single Wound on the Gyro. To make matters worse, they lost two in return (my opponent didn't roll up Hatred this game, he just beat the Elves down the old fashioned way.) Doh.

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Dwarf Turn 2
The Ironbreakers and Quarellers charged the Dryads, knowing they couldn't flee, and leapfrogged forward. My opponent thought he was getting a good deal here, but my next shooting phase would prove him wrong ;). The last Wild Rider and his lovely deer couldn't manage the last Wound off the Gyro though, and then died for their troubles. That is undoubtedly the most savage melee Gyro I have ever come across...

The Master Engineer, hoping to jam up the Glade Riders and preserve the Grudge Thrower, jogged over to block their path. The Grudge Thrower couldn't repeat its last amazing turn, the shot sailing wide.

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Asrai Turn 3
It was time to reposition my valuable units, while letting loose at short range on the Quarellers. I ran my Sisters block over to the sneaky Rangers who had been slogging towards me, while my other Glade Rider unit showed up to help handle the Grudge Thrower. The Glade Riders charged the Engineer... Something I wouldn't ordinarily do with Reavers or Dark Riders, but the Armor Piercing spears really helps them hit a little harder.

For magic, the dual threat of Pit/Withering pulled its weight as my opponent stopped pit and had to let Withering through. I unloaded on the Quarellers, killing 2/3 of the unit, while also finishing off the Combat Gyrocopter o' Doom and javelining (that's a word, I swear!) a few Wounds off the Rangers. In combat, the Glade Riders stabbed the Engineer in the face, didn't die inr eturn, but the hairy bastard held on his Breaktest.

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Dwarf Turn 3
The Dwarves kept on marching, still too far away to comfortably charge. I was a little surprised my opponent didn't attempt the charges anyway, since it would at least force me to choose a Flee or risk ending up in combat, but perhaps he didn't want to risk the lethal Poison stand-and-shoot reactions at short range. The Grudge Thrower sailed wide again, while the Engineer was tramped to death by horses (no kidding, the riders failed to Wound and then the horses scored 4 of them.)

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Asrai Turn 4
At this point I pretty much had my opponent where I wanted him. I might lose a Glade Guard unit or so, but the remainder of the game would be about nuking/hexing his units and slamming as many arrows into them as possible. I started by finishing off the Quarellers. At that point, I conducted something of an experiment. The Hammerers were the easier shooting target here... There armor simply couldn't match the Ironbreakers, meaning that Way Watcher doubleshot and regular Armor Piercing bows would wreck them. I was curious if WE had the firepower to down a chunky unit of Ironbreakers though, so I made that my project and let loose at them to kill the back rank. The freshly arrived second Glade Rider unit charged the Grudge Thrower, fluffing their rolls and only killing one crewman but at least they had it tied up. I didn't want the Rangers pulling a cheeky flank charge on my Glade Guard, so ran the Waywatchers over (they had to get out of the way sooner or later, since I didn't want them pinned against the table edge) so I figured they might as well do it now and also screen the more vulnerable Glade Guard.) The Sisters hopped back into the Forest to regain casting bonuses for my characters. I was confident they could easily fight off the Rangers if they survived the Waywatcher shooting and tried a Rear charge.

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Dwarf Turn 4
My opponent tried a couple of charges, desperately hoping to get some points back, and both the IBs and Hammerers failed need slightly-above-average dice. The stand-and-shoot from the Glade Guard was hilarious effective, doing a few more Wounds. The few remaining Rangers did indeed Rear Charge the Sisters, and the Glade Captain made way and cooly dispatched them all with his spear (very nice...) My Glade Riders trampled another Dwarf crewmen.

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Asrai Turn 5
Another big shooting phase, and the Hammerers (now eating the full force of all my Waywatchers, Sisters, and most of my Hagbane bows) were down to 7 models. I finally finished off the Grudge Thrower...

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Dwarf Turn 5
My opponent managed to muster the dice for one final f*ck you this phase. He charged the Ironbreakers at the Glade Guard, needing average dice and making it. I figured between my stand-and-shoot, perhaps squeezing through a Wound or two in combat, the Ironbreakers would be down to nothing and I could casually finish them off. I could have imagined them obliterating almost all my Glade Guard despite the defended obstacle, but then they made their 12 inch overrun to get exactly off the table and save themselves from my last round of shooting. Well damn...

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Asrai Turn 6
No big deal. I just killed all 21 Hammerers and the general instead :p

Image

I had lost:

-10 Dryads (fed to the Ironbreakers to keep them happy)
-10 Glade Guard with musician, Hagbane tips (run over in an appalling turn of events)
-7 Wild Riders with full command, shields (mutilated by Conan the Gyrocopter Pilot)

My opponent had lost:

-Runesmith with shield, RoStone, Fiery Ring of Thori, Spellbreaker (Way Watched!)
-Master Engineer w/ great weapon, RoStone (Glade Ridden!)
-21 Quarellers w/ fc, great weapons (full of arrows!)
-21 Hammerers w/ fc (unwillingly impersonating a hedgehog)
-Gyrocopter (Poison Arrow... Headshot :dundundun:)
-Gyrocopter (died of laughter after beating an entire unit of Wild Riders by itself)
-Grudge Thrower w/ RoAccuracy, RoPenetrating (Glade Ridden!)
-Cannons w/ RoForging, RoBurning (Hagbaned!)
-Organ Gun w/ RoAccuracy, RoForging (reminded why Elves are the true masters of Ballistic Skill based shooting ;))
-6 Rangers (mass suicide after wishing they were Core again)
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#460 Post by Tethlis »

Game 3 versus Ogre Kingdoms:

Ogres!

I ran the same list.

My oppponent had:

-Level 4 Slaughtermaster with great weapon, Armor of Destiny, Crown of Command, Heavens
-Level 2 Butcher (Dispel Scroll? Hellheart?), Gut Magic
-BSB with great weapon, Talisman of Preservation
-12 Ironguts with full command, Banner of Discipline
-3 Bulls with Bellower
-3 Bulls with Bellower
-10 Gnoblar Trappers
-10 Gnoblar Trappers
-8 Maneaters with full command, Brace of Ogre Pistols, Sniper, Poison
-4 Leadbelchers with Bellower
-3 Mournfangs with musician, heavy armor, ironfists

Terrain
Getting more practiced with the Acorn, I basically set up a forest in each corner. So regardless of table side or other factors, I could ensure Venom Thickets to hide in while keeping the center of the board relatively clear for firing lanes.

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Deployment
What this list is teaching me is that I have to be ready to pick a section of the table I like and be prepared to hold it, since I have very few drops that actually start on the table and little in the way of disposable chaff to let me stretch out my deployment. I immediate picked the bottom left hand corner for my Glade Guard, setting up my combat units there to intercept any threats. When I saw the Mournfangs hit the table, I know those would be Target #1 for my Waywatchers, while the Hagbane crowd could handle the Ironguts and Maneaters.

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Asrai Turn 1
The min-sized units of Bulls would have made a good screen for the Mournfangs, but my opponent seemed more interested in protecting his Guts and Leadbelchers. I shuffled my lines, getting the Dryads and Rangers formed up, before redeploying my Sisters + Characters away from the Sniping Maneaters and into Pit of Shades/Withering range of the Ironblaster and Mournfangs. My opponent scrolled Withering on the Mournfangs, letting me Iceshard Blizzard them in the hopes of an easy Panic off the table. The Waywatchers did what they came to do... Shot down 2+ armor like it was nothing, taking the Mournfangs down to one model left. The Hagbane bows knocked down a couple of Bulls, reducing the screen protecting the Guts. The last Mournfang passed his Ld6 Panic and stuck around, but the Sabertusk I shot down on the far left panicked some Gnoblars and sent them scurrying.

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OK Turn 1
The Ogres came careening forward. My opponent redeployed his general and BSB into the Maneaters, in order to provide more central Leadership and BSB re-rolls after the Panic on Turn 1. The Leadbelchers, still too far to engage easily, took up position in the building. For Magic, my opponent got off a Chain Lightning which failed to leap and only killed a Scout. He very nearly capitalized on a big error on my part though, sending a cannonball at the flank of the Wild Riders. I was only saved by bad bounces there.

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Asrai Turn 2
This turn, my goal was to clear out the right half of the table so I could focus my remaining resources on the big blocks on the left. A Glade Rider unit arrived, and I brought them on behind my opponent to keep them safe from missile fire but still be in a position to redirect if I needed them. My Dryads charged the depleted Bull screen, which fled and panicked the Gnobalrs behind them. I wanted to make sure there were no Ogre redirectors left to get in my way if I opted to commit to combat against one of those blocks. My Wild Riders charged the other min unit of Bulls (I was expecting a Flee reaction, which I got) and redirected into the Leadbelchers in the building. Even without cav bonuses, I was confident that twenty-two WS5 ASF attacks at Strength 4 would be able to get the job done. Magic saw a standard 4/3 phase, with my opponent throwing all this dice to stop a 4-dice Withering attempt, letting me 3-dice Pit of Shades to nuke his Ironblaster. The Waywatchers finished off the Mournfang, while the Glade Guard and Scouts kept up some steady arrow pressure on the Ironguts. In combat, my Wild Riders fluffed their attacks horribly, killing only one of the Leadbelchers and ensuring they were going to die next round.

Image

OK Turn 2
A mixed round of luck for my opponent. He failed to rally any of his fleeing units, but did manage to obliterate my Wild Riders with point-blank Leadbelcher fire. The Wild Riders had their chance... Apparently fighting against shooting units is bad luck for them, as the Gyrocopter demonstrated last game ;). My opponent's Magic Phase was rough, with an early Broken Concentration that let me contain the rest of his phase.

Image

Asrai Turn 3
His blocks were well situated to pounce on my next turn, and his mostly-intact Leadbelchers were in a very safe position inside the building, so I decided it was time to commit. I marched the Dryads straight into the face of both Ogre blocks to redirect them, while shuffling the Wildwood Rangers for an easy counter charge if they either pursued, overran or reformed from killing the Dryads. The Sisters and Waywatchers went straight for the building, and I rolled up a very nice 5/6 Magic Phase. My opponent dispelled Withering, and my plan was to two-dice Miasma to reduce the effectiveness of the Belchers and then nuke one of the Ogre blocks with Pit. Unfortunately I IFed Miasma on two dice, Dimensional Cascaded and lost my Level 4. Whoops. Still, my shooting phase held true to form, taking apart the Leadbelchers (even with their Hard Cover bonus) and making a mess of the Ironguts, softening them up for combat.

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OK Turn 3
My opponent took this bait here, confident his blocks could resist any combat threat I threw at him now that he had killed the Wild Riders. The Ironguts Ogre-charged the Dryads, while the Maneaters maneuvered to flank anything I threw at the Ironguts. Some of his chaff rallied, but the intact unit of 3 Bulls failed another rally to sprint off the table. He slung some magic missiles at the Rangers to try and deplete them, following up with Maneater pistols to thing their numbers, but I burned my scroll to contain the damage and the Rangers only lost half a rank of bodies. Keeping them intact for this next combat would be key. The Dryads, predictably, disintegrated under the storm of Impact Hits and great weapons, but I was feeling confident for this next turn.

Image

Asrai Turn 4
The Rangers went straight into the Ironguts, a charge that was close enough that my opponent didn't attempt to flee. I ran my one unit of Glade Riders over to redirect the Maneaters, just in case the Ironguts held (my other Glade Rider unit was a no-show so far.) Magic was reduced with my Level 4 Dead, but I was able to present a double threat with Iceshard Blizzard and Curse of Anraheir that saw me get off Curse and pretty much clinched the combat for me. Bows loosed at the Maneaters and the surviving Bulls, wiping out the small unit and knocking a couple of Maneaters into the dust. In combat, the Rangers made a mess, losing a rank in return but doing twice that number in Wounds to break the Ironguts and run them down.

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OK Turn 4
The Maneaters charged the Glade Riders, and I was happy to flee this charge since I no longer needed them to protect the Rangers who had overrun to safety. My opponent redirected at the Glade Guard, a hail-mary attempt to roll 11 on his charge dice. He failed the charge, and lost another Maneater from stand-and-shoot for his troubles. At this point, knowing he was unlikely to catch anything and would spend two more turns getting shot off the table, he conceded.

Image

Afterthoughts:
-Waywatchers demonstrated their value once again, easily killing a monstrous cav unit that would otherwise be a nightmare for Wood Elves to handle.
-I really like having access to Miasma, Iceshard Blizzard and Curse of Anraheir against low-WS and Ballistic Skill-based armies. You can really tear down their ability to do damage.
-This was a good example of when WWR can really pull good weight in combat. 21 Strength 5 Attacks is very significant.
-This game was also a good example of the kind of attrition Poison can cause, killing a lot of Ogres at range and thinning their numbers down to manageable levels.
-Precision bowfire to trigger Panic tests on vulnerable units is always a good idea. Always be on the lookout for units outside the umbrella of general's Leadership + BSB range. Iceshard also helps here with its Leadership debuff.
-Another unfortunate performance from the Wild Riders, but that mostly comes down to seriously bad dice at a bad moment. It does reinforce a good lesson though; Wood Elves are not certainly not forgiving of errors or bad rounds.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#461 Post by Curu Olannon »

Interesting reports, please keep them coming :)

I`m curious to see you using the sisters as opposed to say a secondary L2 with Heavens and MR3. Currently you are super-weak to death and your WWs are extremely vulnerable to MMs. A Loremaster would likely give you nightmares for example. A secondary Heavens improves your selection greatly (bubbled Convergence and Comet are terrific for your list) in addition to providing MR3. Have you considered this?

Waywatchers are indeed truly brutal. Do you think High Magic could work as a mainstay lore, I mean Hand of Glory would make them ridiculous. I know Shadow`s your go-to Lore, but High lets you play a less risky game as fewer dice are needed per spell. Furthermore I think Arcane and Fiery would help you deal with some problems that are otherwise hard to handle. Thoughts?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#462 Post by Tethlis »

Thanks for reading, Curu.

Funny you mentioned that; my next move was going to be dropping the Acorn in order to get a 4++ for the Level 4 (either Preservation or MR(3)), which should help shut down (or at least contain) Death Magic. I'll even be able to scrounge some points to upgrade to a Level 2 also.

I'm still on the fence about High Magic for non High Elf players. The advantages of Hand of Glory are obvious for this army, though my one big concern is whether or not there's another scary spell that can force an enemy to choose between Dispelling one or Dispelling the other. Shadow is nice because because it also has Pit of Shades, a very direct threat for many armies, and both Withering and Pit can be cast with a lot of reliability if I get a 7 dice phase (very reasonable with three channels) and +1 to Cast while in a Forest. In a lot of my games, if I don't get one off, there's a good chance I'll get the other. Even if I don't generate those spells, defensive backups like Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Iceshard, Curse of Anraheir have all been very useful and are easily cast with low dice. So while I might not be able to slap the opponent with a Withering, I can certainly pull their teeth using other spells. I'm not sure yet if High Magic can offer that kind of redundancy.

My game with HE vs WE was very, very informative as someone who plays both armies. I'll type that one up now actually.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#463 Post by Tethlis »

I got my High Elves on the table against a fellow Wood Elf player.

My High Elf list (I've put this one through the wringer a lot, am very familiar with it):

-Level 4 with Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Lore of Shadow
-Level 2 with Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon
-BSB with Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, Dragonbane Gem, halberd
-5 Ellyrian Reavers w/ bows
-5 Ellyrian Reavers w/ bows
-5 Ellyrian Reavers w/ bows
-5 Silverhelms w/ musician, shields
-5 Silverhelms w/ musician, shields
-10 Archers w/ musician
-25 Phoenix Guard w/ fc, Razor Standard
-21 White Lions w/ fc, Banner of the World Dragon
-10 Sisters of Avelorn
-10 Sisters of Avelorn
-Repeater Bolt Thrower
-Repeater Bolt Thrower
-Repeater Bolt Thrower

My opponent's Asrai list (from memory):

-Level 4 with Obsidian Amulet, Moonstone of the Hidden Ways(?), High Magic
-BSB with Hail of Doom Arrow
-Level 2 with Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed, Lore of Heavens
-Glade Captain kitted for combat, Elven Steed
-Waystalker w/ Bow of Loren
-30 Glade Guard w/ full command, Hagbane Tips
-15 Glade Guard w/ full command, Hagbane Tips
-7 Sisters of the Thorn w/ full command
-5 SIsters of the Thorn w/ musician
-10 Waywatchers
-10 Waywatchers
-Treeman


Terrain
No Acorn of the Ages for my opponent, so he threw down his free forest and laid his Glade Guard in the building and the forest for cover bonuses. He basically got the good side of the table ;)

Image

Deployment
I can see the logic of splitting his two units there, since it forces me to basically focus on one or the other, or else risk splitting my forces. With relatively few drops compared to the abundance of chaff my HE have, I knew where that big Glade Guard unit was going to be, and there was no question it was going to be containing some characters so I made it a priority for attack. The center forest meant I would get some nice soft cover while advancing, but the complete lack of cover in my DZ meant I would have to use my own units to minimize shooting damage in the opening turns.

This is really important, both for High Elf players and for Wood Elf players. Rather than using my Ellyrian Reavers to Vanguard and get on the attack as soon as possible, I deployed them as walking/talking Hard Cover to Obscure my more important units. Similarly, I kept my Sisters of Avelorn and Bolt Throwers tucked far back so they would be out of range of all those Glade Guard bows on Turn 1. This could hopefully entice my opponent to overextend any Waywatchers/Scouts he had to try and mess with them, which would hopefully be so far overextended that they could be shot down by the rest of my troops or chased off by combat units.

Things got really interesting when my opponent dropped his Waywatchers + Waystalker in the swamps and fences on the right side of the field. This could have been a really threatening position, since they were firing from cover and wouldn't have to deal with long range or the center forest to reduce their effectiveness. However, they were just a little bit too close to my lines in my opinion...

Image

High Elf Turn 1
+++Edit: A quick note. My deployment diagram should the Reaver unit closest to the Silver Helms vanguarding, but he didn't move at all... He stayed in front of the Reavers, not taking Vanguard, so that he would be able to charge alongside the Helms!+++ The Reaver and Silverhelm charge on the Waywatchers was fairly average for distance, and both charges succeeded. My opponent stood and shot against the Helms, but -2 for being Obscured, -1 for Stand and Shoot, -1 for Long Range meant that even the Waywatchers only managed to pick off two Helms. I sprinted all my combat troops forward, letting the center forest screen my Phoenix Guard while the Reavers screened my White Lions. I could have potentially screened the Phoenix Guard instead, since BotWD would keep the Lions mostly intact against magical arrows, but I knew they would make a great target for the Waywatchers and so I decided to let the Phoenix Guard take their chances with absorbing the bulk of the damage.

For Magic, I rolled up a nice 5/4 phase and started methodically debuffing the Waywatchers I was in melee with. My opponent stopped Iceshard Blizzard with Dice, Withering with a Scroll, which let me Enfeeble the Waywatchers down to Strength 1(!)

Despite attacking over the fence, my cavalry performed very well, killing a handful of Watchers who promptly rolled an 11(!) for flee distance. My pursuit didn't catch them, but it did help my cav get up the field where they would be useful in future turns.

For shooting, there was one really obvious target. My opponent had Vanguarded a bit unit of Sisters of the Thorn + Glade Captain up the table, clearly hoping to swing around to the flanks of my shooting units and start preying on Sisters of Avelorn and Bolt Throwers. Now, a 4++ is good but it's not that good. 20 Sisters, hitting on 3s at long range, tore the unit up nicely with the Archer longbows cleaning up and the Reaver Bow taking down the Glade Captain. The Repeater Bolt Throwers went to work on the second Sister unit housing the Level 2 caster on the far side of the table, but couldn't find the dice to do significant damage.

Image

Wood Elf Turn 1
My opponent shuffled his lines, easily spotting that I was going for his big Glade Guard unit and redeploying all his troops (especially the Treeman) to hopefully prey on my flanks. Fiery Convocation on the Phoenix Guard immediately pulled my scroll. He shot a Reaver unit off the table, then went to work on the Phoenix Guard and killed an impressive 7 of them despite my Ward Save and the penalty from the Forest.

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High Elf Turn 2
Now, that kind of big setup made me think he was sporting the Moonstone, so I advanced the Phoenix Guard up but kept them firmly centered in the Forest to deny the Glade Guard any room to teleport. The Treeman wasn't a unit I wanted in the flanks of my White Lions, simply because that combat would grind for a while and the Treeman wouldn't be going anywhere, so my BSB shotgunned the Potion of Strength to supercharge her bow. For Magic, a 3 dice phase limited my options but I did get off a boosted Miasma on the big Glade Guard block. It only knocked their WS, M and Initiative down by 1, but at least would hurt their shooting phase. As for my own shooting, my BSB took aim and plugged a Wound off the big guy. The Sisters followed suit for another Wound (doubled to 2 Wounds) and an RBT scored a lucky 3 Wounds with a single shot to take him down. My remaining fire went to the Sisters of the Thorn, causing 25% and Panicking them through the Waywatchers who (surprisingly) also Panicked. Noone quite made it to the table edge though.

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Wood Elf Turn 2
Wasn't expecting this, but my opponent charged the White Lions with his big block of Glade Guard. His smaller support unit charged at the flank of my Helms, which they probably could have won and given themselves an easy overrun into the flank of my White Lions (careless positioning on my part, for sure.) I fled with the Helms, hoping he would either fail to Redirect or fail to make the 16 inch charge, but he did manage to redirect then promptly rolled double 6s for distance :p. His Panicked Waywatchers rallied, but his Sisters did not (who says you shouldn't take Musicians on Fast Cavalry?) and fled the table to give me some easy points.

He also generated an average dice Magic phase, and attempted to scrub Miasma off himself with Drain Magic in order to get his ASF re-rolls back. I hurled all my dice to stop that one, but he simply bumped his Initiative back up to get his re-rolls back.

In combat, I tossed out a challenge with my White Lion champ to hopefully guarantee that he at least survived and could hold everyone up on Stubborn. He accepted with his Level 4, which was an interesting choice. He could have accepted with his BSB, who almost certainly would have killed the White Lion champ in combat while also keeping himself safe, but I think my opponent was concerned that I would allocate a pile of attacks at the Level 4 and single her out.

The Glade Guard did well for themselves, killing 2/3 of the White Lions unit, but they hacked down a few in reply and held on Stubborn.

Image

High Elf Turn 3
Since my opponents attempt to break out had failed, I was free to bring in the Phoenix Guard and remaining cavalry mop up. The Phoenix Guard strolled into the flank, and I loved the rest of my shooting and combat units up the table to deal with the Waywatchers in future turns. Magic saw me apply a lot of To Hit Modifiers with Miasma, Iceshard and Curse of Anraheir (only one of which got off.) It was enough though, allowing the White Lions to (barely) survive and preserve their points while denying my opponent the kills he needed to hold off the killing power of the Phoenix Guard and cavalry at his back. Both his Glade Guard units fled, with the Reavers running down the big Glade Guard block.

At this point, my opponent conceded.

Image

Afterthoughts:
-It was definitely a good example of how return shooting and a conservative deployment can mess with Wood Elves. Stacking negative To Hit modifiers helps stop Waywatchers from having their way against every heavy cavalry model on the table, and Miasma, Iceshard, etc. were very valuable.
-Repeater Bolt Throwers have always been good against other Elves, and this hasn't changed. Their meager 2 Wound crew leaves them very vulnerable, but they have enough range to hug the back table edge and still have things to shoot at. For HE and DE players against Wood Elves, keep them obscured during Deployment! For WE players, be aware that they can cause a lot of damage relatively easily. Even when targeting skirmishers, the multi-shot remains very accurate and delivers results.
-I love the combination of Lions and Phoenix Guard (something I started running before the new High Elf book, thanks Ptolemy) and their survivability is very good here. Wood Elf players have the tools to grind them, but it's important to keep them out of combat and slow them down while giving your arrows time to do their work. Hagbane and Waywatchers are a good duo here, with Waywatchers threatening Lions while Hagbane threats Phoenix Guard.
-The Treeman... Yeah. He did absorb a full turn of missile fire, but didn't survive it. Had I been in my opponent's shoes, I would have kept that guy next to the big Glade Guard block. He would have been almost impossible to shoot at that range, being -2 to Hit for the bolt throwers and entirely out of range of the smaller bows. He could have easily held off the Phoenix Guard by himself (the center forest wasn't a Venom Thicket, so no danger of Poison Phoenix Guard), giving the two Glade Guard units plenty of time to work through the White Lions and either flanking the Phoenix Guard and taking them down with the full benefit of fighting in a forest, or starting to shoot up Sisters/Bolt Throwers for more points. Obviously I would have tried to use my Cav to slow down that kind of move and redirect, but it definitely would have kept my opponent in the game.
-The Waywatcher deployment was unfortunate for the Wood Elves. My opponent wanted to hug the fence to give the Waywatchers more shooting protection, but backing up even just a couple of inches would have turned an average distance charge into a longshot that probably would have given him free stand-and-shoots. This could have been a very different game if I hadn't caught that unit on Turn 1, but it does illustrate that Waywatchers are still vulnerable to bad positioning, strong Hexes, etc.
-There's been a few comments about how the BSB should be providing his coverage to vulnerable Wood Elf troops, and this game definitely illustrated that! Quite a bit of Leadership 8 Panic, some failed rally attempts, etc. that highlight the value of a central BSB for Wood Elf players. For players squaring off against Wood Elves, keeping their eyes open for vulnerable units, chain Panic, etc. can be valuable with a bit of luck.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#464 Post by rusty »

Nice reports, thanks :)

1) Do you think the WWR pull their weight? I'm weighing them up vs more Wild Riders. While higher points per wound, they are hard to hit if you don't want them hit.
2) Have you considered a spellweaver with book of Cantremebername for +6 to cast while in a forest? +6 changes the magic phase significantly.
3) Like the lichebone pendant. Sneaky.
4) According to the book, elven steeds ambush. Ambush is mandatory. Reading the RAW, all your mounted characters would have to start off the table. Sounds a bit strange. What do you think?
5)Like also your hex loadout. That's pretty certain that one gets in every phase.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#465 Post by Ambrosius »

You make this look so easy. =P Thanks for taking the time to write these up - I'm learning a lot.

I notice in the last game that you used your archers to screen the RBTs against enemy shooting. Forgive me if this is a noob question, but did this not also mean that your repeaters were shooting at a -2 the entire game also? I would think that this would severely hamper their effectiveness, to the point where screening them would almost not be worthwhile.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#466 Post by Tethlis »

Thanks for reading, guys.

@rusty

1) I've touched on this over at Asrai.org, but yes I think the WWR did a nice job distracting enemy missile fire and presenting a threat that the opponent had to consider. I don't think they're an omg amazing unit, but I do think they bring something very useful to the table. They can be Steadfast for a little while, negate some Steadfast, and give the enemy something to fixate on that lets my other troops operate with greater freedom.

2) I have considered that, yes. I honestly like the Acorn and the Dispel Scroll a lot, and haven't really experimented with the Book of Ashur, but I may try it in the future. +6 is indeed pretty hefty.

3) 3++ versus Magic Missiles should help keep those Sisters on the table ;)

4) I see that Elven Steeds have Fast Cavalry, and the Glade Riders themselves have Ambush, but I don't see where the Steeds themselves have Ambush. Do you have a page number on that one?

5) Yeah, spell redundancy makes for a great magic phase, and having a bit pile of Hexes to reach for can really help you get the result you want. For Elves, they really like being harder to kill, so stacking negative To Hit penalties is fantastic.

@Ambrosius
I'm glad the batreps are informative for you! Good observation in the diagrams there. On Turn 1, I did in fact move the archers forward and wheel them slightly to help give the RBTs better line of fire. This was my fourth battle report of the weekend though so I fully admit I was getting a bit careless in terms of charting all my movements! Also, since my DZ had very little terrain, it's a bit harder for me to mentally chart where my units were in relation to one another since I do all these battle reports from memory :D. Ordinarily you're right though, parking a unit in front of your own RBTs wouldn't be a great idea, so instead I wheeled the Archers slightly to give the RBTs gaps between the Archers and the Sisters that they could fire through. With someone as big as the Treeman too, it wasn't a big deal. My opponent is using one I got from a different retailer that's so hefty that no model in the GW line could possibly obscure it!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#467 Post by Jimmy »

Hey Tethlis

Thanks for the reports.

How experienced was your Ogre opponent? Secondly what points value was this game? Appears your opponents list was around the 2756 point mark?

You don’t seem to play with much terrain at all? Is there a reason for this?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#468 Post by rusty »

4) Don't have the boook here. Same page as Glade riders. There's a table where elf steed, glade riders and glade rider stats are listed. Underneath are listed their special rules: ambush, fast cav, forest stalker. Please tell me I'm wrong :evil: :twisted:
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#469 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Tethlis,

Thanks for the reports and congratulations on your victories!

I am a little late to the party but it seems you post your reports faster than I can read :) I have just finished the first one and if you don't mind I have some questions to better understand the flow of the game and reasoning behind some decision making.

First of all if my math is correct your opponents list seems to be a little short on the core troops. I presume you played 2500? It looks like it is not enough even for 2400.

I don't have the WE book yet so could you briefly tell me how Acorn works? I know you roll d3 for the number of (Citadel! :)) forests but I don't know what are the restriction as to where they can be initially placed. I also seem to remember that WE player can decide what type of forest is that. What was your choice this game? Would it be different against different opponent?

I am a little bit confused with the relative distances between Dryads and the Chariots as well as Cavalry bus. You said that they needed exact average roll to reach Dryads. If it were just 3d6 roll I would assume it means 10" but for the charge roll lowest is discarded so the average distance is 7".

If you meant 10" then I assume Dryads were more or less 16" away from the chariots which seems to closer to the situation on the diagram (on the map they seem to be even further away). But if that is the case then the Knights cannot have the same result to succeed as they are further away. As they were deployed behind the Warhounds I think it is safe to assume they were 3" further. If chariots were at 16" then Knights are at 19". With movement 7 (8 -1 due to barding) that means the Knights required double 6's to actually make contact with Dryads.

However, if Drayds were closer so that the average to obtain was 7" then the distance to the chariots was 13". First, they are not that close on the diagram at all and second, even if they moved their full 10" in their first turn it would mean they are 14" apart. Which one is correct then?

The reason I would like to get the distances correct is to understand why your opponent made such a rush decision and charge with his knights when the odds were not favourable to make that charge in the first place. He risked nothing with a chariot charge as they cannot march anyway. But even if the Dryads were much closer than on a map they still needed 10+ on the dice roll, which is not that great.

I think he would have made a better move if he simply marched with the bus towards Dryads. That might have created problems for some of your shooters to have clear line of sight. His cavalry unit would not be isolated and the units would have presented a cohesive battle line.

Another situation I would like to ask for some clarification is Waywatchers shooting. They don't seem to be in range on the maps. I know they are just to visualise the situation and by no means can be accurate but again, I am trying to understand the flow of battle. Let's take Waywatchers behind the Sisters as example. We already know that the Knights are more or less 27" from the edge of your deployment zone. That means that first rank of Waywatchers would have to be 3" away from that edge. In order to all 10 to be able to shoot the second rank has to be at least 3" away from the deployment edge and first rank would be almost at the line. But it does not seem that Waywatchers moved. They were initially behind the Sisters, roughly 5" away from the edge. So if they didn't move they were not in range. Waywatchers on the side had even further distance to cover. Did they move then?

It seems that your opponent had terrible luck with his close combat attacks as with so many characters and high S attacks he should have cleared Dryads easily. To add insult to injury his could not even catch them not to mention that exactly 3 of them were left o rally. If there were only 2 it would have been way harder to do so.

In your turn 2 Glade Riders showed up. It looks on the diagram as if they marched. If that was the case then it was a mistake as Ambushers cannot march when they enter the table.

The shooting seemed to be spectacular again. It seemed that 20GG had obstructed vision to the chariot meaning they needed 6's to hit at long range (as the map suggests). But it should be enough to get 3-4 poisons in anyway. However, the beast has 3+ armour save. I guess it was another combination of great luck on your side and bad luck on the opponents side.

I must admit I cannot see how Wild Riders made that charge against the chariot on the other flank though. The map suggests they could not even see it. If they did they needed quite a big wheel to go past the Sisters and in order to avoid Crushers. But that could potentially move them out of the straight line to the chariot. A pity you didn't provide any pictures (if you took any) as they would help enormously in aiding the maps. Maps are great at showing the overall situations but pictures help to correct any inaccuracies in diagram preparations.

It looked like a huge gamble nevertheless. The distance suggested very long charge, maybe even 11-12" one. If you failed that charge Wild Riders would be at the mercy of the Crushers. And while there were no valuable units straight behind them I think the knights would have rolled the riders and might have potentially overrun into waywatchers. Or at least be closer to the flank of the rangers. Very lucky on your part again!

Another question about your opponent decision making. Was it possible for him to charge glade guard instead with at least one of his characters? I believe it is possible to declare independent charges with each character in such situation. That might have helped him in avoiding rangers with the sorcerer for example.

Your opponent bad luck still continues. He not only miscast when he finally got good roll for magic phase but wounded his well protected lord. I can only imagine how frustrated that was! He was also in a good position to charge any of your GG or waywatchers with warhounds and chariot. While risky it could have drawn some shots at warhounds or (in the case of waywatches) would provide some hard cover if you decided to stand and shoot at the chariot. If you fled he could always redirect. At this stage it was worthwhile risking DT test in order to clear your archers anyway. I wonder why he didn't use that option when before he was eager to charge at a longer distance.

Timely appearance of the GR stopped Crushers and Waywatchers yet again had above average shooting phase. I bet your opponent started wondering about loaded dice at this stage :)

That charge was spectacular and to kill 2 crushers with no attacks back was definitely something. If I only had such luck and my opponents didn't save that many wounds :)

After that it was really just mopping up.

I was happy to see that WE had some good combats too and it was a combination of the different elements that allowed for such a big victory. Your opponent made a lot of mistakes and seemed to approach your lines piecemeal which is not good idea and definitely helped you to isolate the threats and deal with them one at a time or soften them before the killing blow. Add to that his bad luck and your above average rolls and there is no wonder his army disappeared entirely.

Thanks again for the report!

Cheers!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#470 Post by Tethlis »

Thanks for reading all.

@Jimmy
The game was 2500. I didn't get a carbon copy of my opponent's listed, so what I wrote was based off of memory and the assumption of what he had based on how he played. If the list is over, that's more likely me remembering incorrect details rather than the fault of my opponent.

@Rusty
I do believe you're wrong on this one ;) The section you're describing does indeed list the Ambushers special rule, but it's still under the heading for Glade Riders rather than being under a separate entry for Elven steeds. In the list of available mounts in the army list section, Elven Steeds are listed with the Fast Cavalry rule but there is no mention of Ambush at all. So I think we can safely say that Wood Elf characters on Elven Steeds do not need to ambush!

@Swordmaster of Hoeth

I'll repost my Asrai response here for the sake of discussion!

Oof Swordmasters you've given me a lot to reply to. I definitely want to mention that these diagrams are meant as a rough guideline, indicate what I remember on the maneuvers of the game. I don't stop to chart them as the game is going, but instead play the game, write the narrative, and create the diagrams from memory. That's also why I include the written narrative... To help indicate the events that took place, and compensate for any errors in the accuracy of the diagrams (of which there are many!) They're meant to provide a general visual guideline for the how the game flowed. Based on that, let's talk motive by my opponent. My replies in green:
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Hi Tethlis,
First of all if my math is correct your opponents list seems to be a little short on the core troops. I presume you played 2500? It looks like it is not enough even for 2400.

There may have been a magic banner on the unit, and they also had shields. Factoring that in, I'm pretty sure my opponent had at least 625 points of Core

I don't have the WE book yet so could you briefly tell me how Acorn works? I know you roll d3 for the number of (Citadel! :)) forests but I don't know what are the restriction as to where they can be initially placed. I also seem to remember that WE player can decide what type of forest is that. What was your choice this game? Would it be different against different opponent?

The Acorn generates D3 forests, which can be placed anywhere on the table before table sides are selected. They they scatter 2D6. Obviously I didn't want them obscuring my own missile fire, so I tried to keep them away from the center of the table but had one or two crazy scatters. I opted for Venom Thickets, as most Wood Elf players will certainly do; WEs gain Poison Attacks and ignore the Dangerous Terrain component. Abyssal Woods are also good for Wildwood Rangers since it means anyone they fight will trigger their +1 Attack Special rule!

I am a little bit confused with the relative distances between Dryads and the Chariots as well as Cavalry bus. You said that they needed exact average roll to reach Dryads. If it were just 3d6 roll I would assume it means 10" but for the charge roll lowest is discarded so the average distance is 7".

My understanding is that average value on 3D6, take the two highest, is between 9 and 10 inches. 2D6 is (of course) 7, but 3D6, take the two highest reflects that there's greater probability for variation and thus the average goes up by roughly 2 inches. The issue with my diagram is that the Chaos Knights should probably be nudged forward an inch, and the the Dryads should be 3 or 4 inches to the right to reflect that they were directly across from the Knights. In game itself, the hounds screening the knights were on the center line, with the knights exactly an inch behind them. This meant that the Knights were roughly 3 inches back in their Deployment Zone, and 27 inches from my lines. The Dryads were deployed right at the edge of my DZ, and advanced straight towards the knights with a 10 inch move. So they ended up 17 inches away from the Knights, or within charge distance.

The Gorebeast Chariots were deployed right at the edge of my opponent's DZ, but were at a more diagonal angle and (of course) are only Movement 6. This meant that they were 15 or 16 inches away, roughly, and so within the boundaries of "average" for 3D6, take the two highest.

The reason I would like to get the distances correct is to understand why your opponent made such a rush decision and charge with his knights when the odds were not favourable to make that charge in the first place. He risked nothing with a chariot charge as they cannot march anyway. But even if the Dryads were much closer than on a map they still needed 10+ on the dice roll, which is not that great.


Remember as well, from a logical perspective, that my opponent knew the Dryads couldn't flee and was still obeying probability by declaring that charge. Had he marched, he still wouldn't have been able to engage in close combat until at least Turn 3, and he would never be able to effectively hide in combat against anything except the Wildwood Rangers. So in some ways, he and I were working towards the same goal for different reasons: he wanted to engage the Rangers ASAP to avoid missile fire; I wanted him to hit the Rangers so I could tie him up and shoot other things. Clearly my logic beat out his logic in this particular scenario since I won the game, but it doesn't change the fact that he visualized a strategy and obeyed the laws of probability in order to execute it. Risky, but probable.


I think he would have made a better move if he simply marched with the bus towards Dryads. That might have created problems for some of your shooters to have clear line of sight. His cavalry unit would not be isolated and the units would have presented a cohesive battle line.

Even if the Knights themselves had marched towards the Dryads and used them for cover, what comes after that? He benefit from being Obscured, but that still benefits my battle plan since my entire goal was to keep the knights busy while I had time to kill everything else off. So rather than sacrificing a unit of Dryads and the Rangers to tie up the Knights and Characters, the Dryads alone would have basically occupied my opponent for twice as long and I could have focused my missile fire on other threats. It also meant that my Glade Riders would have more time to arrive and position themselves as redirectors, potentially meaning his knights never got into a favorable combat at all. I don't know if any of this would have benefited my opponent or not, but I do know that he wanted some return on the investment of his 1000+ point unit.

Another situation I would like to ask for some clarification is Waywatchers shooting. They don't seem to be in range on the maps. I know they are just to visualise the situation and by no means can be accurate but again, I am trying to understand the flow of battle. Let's take Waywatchers behind the Sisters as example. We already know that the Knights are more or less 27" from the edge of your deployment zone. That means that first rank of Waywatchers would have to be 3" away from that edge. In order to all 10 to be able to shoot the second rank has to be at least 3" away from the deployment edge and first rank would be almost at the line. But it does not seem that Waywatchers moved. They were initially behind the Sisters, roughly 5" away from the edge. So if they didn't move they were not in range. Waywatchers on the side had even further distance to cover. Did they move then?

Note that the spacing for battle Chronicler tends to inaccurately depict skirmisher formations as being a bit wider then they actually are in-game, so in order to fit them in on the diagram I had them arrayed in two ranks. That was actually inaccurate for deployment though... That unit was mostly single-file, with the front rank all just within range of the Chaos Knights (it was a close margin.) Since the Waywatchers, of course, a Scouting unit, I was able to see exactly where the knights were, then position the bulk of the Waywatcher unit in a position that was just within 30 inches where most of the unit could fire without penalty. With so many durable Swiftstride threats on the table, I thought that my DZ would be a safer place to set up than in the middle of the board.

It seems that your opponent had terrible luck with his close combat attacks as with so many characters and high S attacks he should have cleared Dryads easily. To add insult to injury his could not even catch them not to mention that exactly 3 of them were left o rally. If there were only 2 it would have been way harder to do so.

His dice were indeed against him in that first round. The Lord killed 3 on his own, but the Exalted and Sorcerer primarily failed to Hit, failed to Wound. The remainder of the Knights also performed poorly, and I did well with Ward Saves. It was uncharacteristically bad, but then again that's also why I play armies that re-roll To Hit :D. I certainly didn't expect the Dryads surviving with enough bodies to rally, but I certainly wasn't complaining since it was valuable for delaying those Knights one more round.

In your turn 2 Glade Riders showed up. It looks on the diagram as if they marched. If that was the case then it was a mistake as Ambushers cannot march when they enter the table.

The building there, the ruined tower, wasn't actually the terrain piece we used. We had one of the citadel empire towers, which has a much smaller footprint. If you change the size/scale of terrain in the Battle Chronicler program, it sometimes distorts the image of the terrain piece and creates a grainy appearance, so I didn't attempt to correct the scale for the sake of presentation. In reality though, the Glade Riders didn't have quite so far to move when they arrived on the table, so they were able to achieve that redirecting move using their standard 9 inch Movement.

The shooting seemed to be spectacular again. It seemed that 20GG had obstructed vision to the chariot meaning they needed 6's to hit at long range (as the map suggests). But it should be enough to get 3-4 poisons in anyway. However, the beast has 3+ armour save. I guess it was another combination of great luck on your side and bad luck on the opponents side.

Bear in mind also, one advantage of Poison isn't so much the probability of rolling exact percentage of 6s, but the possibility of generating skew damage with a disproportionately high number of 6s. I don't think that even occurred here, since the Gorebeast Chariot was already Wounded on Turn 1 and it is always possible to fail a large number of 4+ saves (as Phoenix Guard can easily attest!) For armies that are unforgiving, like Wood Elves, having multiple layers of strategic redundancy is a nice thing; I was able to position the Glade Riders so that most of the Glade Guard were not obscured (remember, that's a factor of how much of a model is a visible, rather than whether or not anything happens to be in the way), got fairly average Poison results and possibly another Wound from the Glade Riders rolling a natural 6 to Wound, and my opponent flopped some armor :)

I must admit I cannot see how Wild Riders made that charge against the chariot on the other flank though. The map suggests they could not even see it. If they did they needed quite a big wheel to go past the Sisters and in order to avoid Crushers. But that could potentially move them out of the straight line to the chariot. A pity you didn't provide any pictures (if you took any) as they would help enormously in aiding the maps. Maps are great at showing the overall situations but pictures help to correct any inaccuracies in diagram preparations.

The positioning of the Wild Riders and Sisters was intended to be relative. The goal was to convey that the Wild Riders and Sisters were in the central woods, in a position where they could react to a multitude of threats.

I do like pictures for reports, but unfortunately my army is so full of proxies right now (Sisters and Wildwood Rangers aren't released yet, and I still have to build my horse-mounted characters since I previously used characters on foot) so I was concerned they were more likely to confuse the issue than help as a visual aid. After this next wave of releases though, I'll get things built and it shouldn't be much of an issue.


It looked like a huge gamble nevertheless. The distance suggested very long charge, maybe even 11-12" one. If you failed that charge Wild Riders would be at the mercy of the Crushers. And while there were no valuable units straight behind them I think the knights would have rolled the riders and might have potentially overrun into waywatchers. Or at least be closer to the flank of the rangers. Very lucky on your part again!

11 to 12? Is that based on the belief that Swifstride's average distance is 7 inches, rather than 9? Because if it had been an 11 to 12 inch charge, I wouldn't have declared it :p. I think your reading of the distances in Battle Chronicler, as well as probability, might be on a different page than mine though. Even with the diagram as it is, the Wild Riders (based on my looking at it) certainly aren't 20-21 inches from the Gorebeast Chariot, which they would have to be for it to be an 11 or 12 inch charge. Wild Riders, being Movement 9, plus the average of Swifstride being 9 inches as mentioned earlier, have an average charge distance of 18 inches. So in this situation, with them being roughly 15 or 16 inches from the Gorebeast Chariot, it is pretty safe territory for Wild Riders to reliably get into combat.

Alternately, If I had failed the charge and the Wildriders had been vulnerable to a counter-charge, I wouldn't have left units the Waywatchers there to be overrun into. Once nice component of Wood Elves is that virtually everything is disposable, and most units have the mobility to get themselves out of the way if things start to unravel.


Another question about your opponent decision making. Was it possible for him to charge glade guard instead with at least one of his characters? I believe it is possible to declare independent charges with each character in such situation. That might have helped him in avoiding rangers with the sorcerer for example.

I was actually expecting individual charges from characters here, but my opponent also knows I could have fled charges and allowed units to deliberately caught in order to maximize shooting again, or I could have held with ranked units and likely been Steadfast for a Turn or so to allow my other units to escape. By this point in time, the Knights were well below 5 rank-and-file models and I think my opponent was hoping that by keeping the unit together, he could help preserve their points rather than allowing individual threats to be isolated and shot down one at a time. Bear in mind, a lot of my opponent's decision making was based on the fact that he isn't used to seeing half of a Chaos Knight unit removed each shooting phase by Strength 3 bow fire.

Your opponent bad luck still continues. He not only miscast when he finally got good roll for magic phase but wounded his well protected lord. I can only imagine how frustrated that was! He was also in a good position to charge any of your GG or waywatchers with warhounds and chariot. While risky it could have drawn some shots at warhounds or (in the case of waywatches) would provide some hard cover if you decided to stand and shoot at the chariot. If you fled he could always redirect. At this stage it was worthwhile risking DT test in order to clear your archers anyway. I wonder why he didn't use that option when before he was eager to charge at a longer distance.

I'm not sure, but perhaps he noticed the shift in his luck and changed his mind about trusting too much in his dice. Also, as far as bad luck with Miscasts this turn, more dice means more resources, which means more Miscasts, and when you're in a unit that's only expensive characters and expensive Chaos Knights, even the most benign miscast results can cause a lot of damage. So I can't say I have a lot of sympathy!

Timely appearance of the GR stopped Crushers and Waywatchers yet again had above average shooting phase. I bet your opponent started wondering about loaded dice at this stage :)

Ambush is an interesting rule. I was skeptical at first, but it is very nice being able to have a unit enter play with such freedom. It does make things hard to plan in advance, but it does become a useful "resource" than can be utilized with a lot of freedom at the start of any turn. In this case, my Waywatchers were in a charge. I could have moved them out of LoS, or I could keep them stationary for more accurate shooting. My Ambushers arrived. I decided to use my Ambushers to redirect, so my Waywatchers didn't have to move. It wasn't exactly "timely", since the Riders had already missed their arrival on Turn 2, and they could have still redirected the Crushers if they had started on the table to begin with. It's the same role that Reavers that Dark Riders do all the time, a role that's double effective versus WoC since they lack the missile fire to clear Fast Cavalry in the opening turns.

That charge was spectacular and to kill 2 crushers with no attacks back was definitely something. If I only had such luck and my opponents didn't save that many wounds :)

Have you seen the rules for Wild Riders yet? 7 of them charging, with champion, is 22 Strength 5, Armor Piercing Attacks (not including mounts.) That's the same as 10 Dragon Princes arrayed in two ranks of 5 with Razor Standard. With no Augments/Hexes in play, they kill ~2 Crushers by themselves. So unless your dice are particularly awful, you shouldn't have had a lot of trouble killing two Crushers after softening up them up with armor-ignoring arrows for a round or two. If you ever get the chance to borrow Wood Elves, give it a try. This army goes through armor like butter.

Thanks again for the report!

Thanks for the comments. It's nice to have such an analytical reader, who focuses very closely on the diagrams. I may start being more thorough with my note taking and diagrams, for the benefit of forum goers such as yourself.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#471 Post by Curu Olannon »

If one character in a unit declares a charge, the rest of the unit (including other characters) can not declare any charges.

Tethlis, how would you rate the lists you have faced now from an objective point of view (i.e. relative strength compared to other variants from their fraction) and from a WE point of view. I am just curious because I know you frequently play a variety of lists from a list strength point of view and want to hear your thoughts on these games as it is still very early days for WE :)
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#472 Post by Velmates »

Hey, Tethlis! It's good to see some new games of yours and since I first encountered your reports on asrai.org when the 7th ed wood elves book was released (and I had a little WE army myself back then) I enjoyed them even more.

Since all 3 elven races have been released by now, I came up with a little thought experiment today. How would your army look like, if all 3 books were one? Maybe you (or anyone else of course), since you have great experience with all of them, find some time and post your result. But don't ask why, I am just curious... :D
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Check out [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63818]my painting blog[/url]!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#473 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Tethlis,

Thanks a lot for taking time to reply to my long post! I was concerned that I might put too many questions but I am glad you are patient enough to answer them!

Writing reports myself I am fully aware of the limitations Battle Chronicler has. But at the same time I want to learn as much from other players as possible. In casual games situations where millimetres actually count are rare. But I have also learned hard way that when playing against the best players you have to check angles and distances as accurately as possible.

That is the reason I keep asking these questions about distances. I meant no offence to either you or any other reader. I simply know one has to be meticulous in the game. Knowing what were the relative distances and then assessing the probability of successful charge gives me great insight into decision making of both players. Having only BC diagrams I treat them as a reference and if in fact units in questions were in slightly different positions that also helps to look for alternatives for the movements made.

I do hope then, that my questions are not perceived in a negative way. And that you don't mind me asking what was roughly the distance between the units in particular situation. It helps, after all, to see that the decision you made (or your opponent made) only looked like a gamble while might have been a good assessment of odds into your favour!

Wood Elf army book

As I have mentioned I haven't read the army book yet so I may not remember all the rules properly. I read the rumours but it seems I don't remember them all precisely. For example, I have noticed that I kept forgetting about AP for longbows and had to re-calculate the chances! I definitely missed AP for spears so I am in even greater awe of wildriders combat capabilities! :)

Thanks a lot for taking time to clarify things for me!

Dryads

I like the way you use them. It is dirty job they do but somebody has to take one for the team sometimes and if you can dictate when it is done and by whom it is better. Their ItP in that regard is great asset as you can make sure to block even terror causing enemy and don't have to keep BSB nearby.

I was considering other options for your opponent too because it pays off to try and see things from his perspective as well. I didn't say it was good option, merely was considering it as an alternative and pointed out the small advantage of being less likely to be hit. However, I have found out that sometimes it is actually good to use the screen unit like that to block the enemy behind them. What you achieve is being closer to the enemy and not risking long charge. Again, in that case might not be the best option and I can perfectly understand that losing 5 knights in one shooting phase made him very nervous! It is one thing to look for different solutions when reading about the game and totally different when playing it and feeling all the pressure!

Waywatchers and BC

There is a way to change that distance between the models in BC. When creating the unit in the "game details" menu you can put any distance between them you want. The default is 2" I think. Simply change it to 0.5 and you are sorted!

I really like scouts for that advantage of being able to deploy after the enemy. You see the units and can choose the best spot for them. I wish I had more points for Shadow Warriors who are not even close to Waywatchers but can definitely add to the flexibility of the army.

Poison and Archers

Yeap, another question just to clarify as I know BC can be deceiving in that regard. As to poison I know it is a fantastic thing against beasts like that chariot and as I have mentioned, I forgot AP! 4+ save is not that good as 3+ obviously and without -2 to hit due to GR in the way it is not that unlikely to get that chariot damaged even in a single turn. I really like the flexibility of the Asrai Archers! I must admit I envy them and many times I was shooting at tough opponents and rolling 6's to hit I wished to have poisons!

Wild Riders and Probability

Let me explain how I came up with that distance first. Of course I used BC as a reference knowing I might be wrong. But it is a starting point and that is why I asked question so that you could clarify how much inaccurate my initial assumption is. It seems that in horizontal direction WR and chariot are roughly 12" apart. In the vertical direction they seem to be 16" apart. I used the dimensions of each square created by grid lines as a reference here. In that case the simple math tells you that the diagonal of such rectangle is 20". That means that with M9 WR need 11+ to reach the chariot.

As I said it is very rough estimation and I assumed I am not correct but I didn't know by how much.

As to probability, let me explain how I try to approach it so that you can say how different our assessments can be. In the case of Swifstride I don't operate with average distance. The reason is that it is not simple 3d6 roll where indeed 9 is the most probable result. We roll 3d6 but discard the lowest as everybody knows. Because of that I prefer to use probability of success. Which is more or less like this table:

Code: Select all

3" or more  - 99,5%    
4" or more  - 98%      
5" or more  - 95%      
6" or more  - 90%      
7" or more  - 80%      
8" or more  - 68%      
9" or more  - 52%      
10" or more - 36%      
11" or more - 20%      
12"          - 7%
because of that I consider 11+ charge very risky. Even 10+ does not give you better odds to succeed and it is more likely that one can fail. If they were in 18" distance then it is still 50/50. It is up to a player to make a decision to charge or not but it certainly pays off to know what your chances are. Of course, if they were in 16" range then it is a very good call to charge. But to be in that distance they needed to be in one corner of 12" grid square while the chariot should sit in the other corner on the diagonal which the diagram didn't show. Hence my confusion :)

As to Wild Riders hitting power I have already noted I was mistaken by not counting in their AP! I am pretty sure an odd S4 attack from stags helps too!

Glade Riders and Ambush

I am happy to see your use of the fast cavalry. I am still wondering why they got it in the fist place but it is great to see it being useful. I would love to have it as optional, then they would be fantastic!

Thanks again for detailed reply! I learning a lot from your games so I am glad you have patience to make things clearer for me. I hope I will be able to catch up with the rest of reports before you post another 4 or more!

Cheers!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#474 Post by Malossar »

So I got the book monday evening and sat down and devoured it. I then started writing a list or two and ended up with this:

Spellweaver - 340 (Lore of Shadow)
-Level 4, Acorn of the Ages, Elven Steed

Glade Captain - 152
-Battle Standard, Elven Steed, Shield, Dragonhelm, Hail of Doom Arrow

Spellsinger -150 (Lore of Heavens)
-Level 2, Dispel Scroll,Elven Steed

5x Glade Riders w. Hagbane Tips - 110
5x Glade Riders w. Hagbane Tips - 110
10x Glade Guard w. Hagbane Tips, Musician - 160
10x Glade Guard w. Hagbane Tips, Musician - 160
10x Glade Guard w. Hagbane Tips, Musician - 160

3x Warhawk Riders - 135
3x Warhawk Riders - 135

7x Sisters of the Thorn w. Musician, Standard, Lichebone Pennant - 197
7x Wild Riders w. Full Command, Shields - 226
5x Deepwood Scouts - 65

10x Waywatchers - 200
10x Waywatchers - 200




Almost identical? I've yet to play a game but I at least own all of these models. 7x Wild riders were a throwback from the 6th edition formation. Scouts block vanguard. core gives me a solid shooting phase with a bit of teeth. What I didn't take were the wild wood rangers and after reading your reports I'm wondering if I should force them in!
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
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Ferny
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#475 Post by Ferny »

He also generated an average dice Magic phase, and attempted to scrub Miasma off himself with Drain Magic in order to get his ASF re-rolls back. I hurled all my dice to stop that one, but he simply bumped his Initiative back up to get his re-rolls back.
Seems like a petty point amongst all the awesome, but I thought if both parties had ASF then neither got re-rolls?
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#476 Post by Curu Olannon »

ASF and ASL cancel eachother out. Thus, a unit with asf attacking a unit with asf + asl gets rerolls to hit, assuming I is equal or higher. For example, PG get rerolls vs executioners. This also makes Frostheart amazing in DE matchups as it will suddenly grant pg and our characters re-rolls vs Witchelves for example ;)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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Telemachus
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#477 Post by Telemachus »

Thanks for the reports Tethlis, great to see so much detail.

Quick note on the WoC list - The new Woc book actually can't mix Marks in a single unit (i.e Tzeentch characters in Nurgle bus, or Tzeentch and Nurgle characters together).

And a question - if you were making a combat focused WE army, what would it look like?

Cheers
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Glorfindain
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#478 Post by Glorfindain »

Thank you for posting all the WE battle reports so soon! I really enjoyed seeing what your Wood Elf list could do and for what it's worth I think you have done a great job of capturing the hit and run dynamic that is present in the lore. Well done!
gaz
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#479 Post by gaz »

Thanks for the reports, great as always.

I felt pretty sorry for those poor little Stunties trying to run down elves in G2. Not an ideal situation for a dwarf.
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Tethlis
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practice

#480 Post by Tethlis »

Hey all,
Thanks for the comments. Sorry to be so out of touch with replies... Am looking at a new work opportunity, helping my girlfriend change apartments, and also practicing/painting furiously for some tournaments coming up so it's cut into my forum time a bit. If anyone still has WE questions, feel free to ask. I'll be taking HE to this upcoming event, and based on a comment Curu made a while back I decided to give the Loremaster a shot as well as incorporate High Magic. I've been worried a lot about Skaven, mobile shooty Dark Elves and Disc Lords, and I don't think my old list had any good reliable solutions there. As a result, I decided to also incorporate High Magic, since it lets me do three things: Create a 3++ Bunker so safeguard characters if I find myself hopefully outmanuevered and out, brings Arcane Unforging into the mix to sabotage some of those scary lone characters or magic items, and adds Fiery Convocation to the mix for combating the rising number of Greenskin and Skaven opponents I see (also quite good versus Witch Elves in Cauldron lists).

I had a few fun games so far, all of which went well and saw good success with the list. I also had one very interesting game, one that probably would have turned out differently if not for my magic change-ups. My list:

-Loremaster w/ Ogre Blade, Scroll, Golden Crown, Shield of the Merwyrm
-Level 4 High w/ Talisman of Endurance, Book
-Noble w/ Reaver Bow, heavy armor, halberd, Charmed Shield, BSB
-15 Archers w/ fc
-7 Helms w/ fc, shields
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-23 PG w/ fc, Razor Standard
-20 WL w/ fc, BotWD
-3 RBTs
-9 Sisters

I was up against Dwarves in a variation of Dawn Attack, with one of our Core units holding a counter which gives battle points if you hold yours/steal the opponents. The Dwarf list was fairly typical, something like:

-Runesmith w/ scroll and Fiery Ring
-BSB w/ Grungni, 2x Slowness
-Master Engineer
-30 Quarellers
-10 Quarellers
-25 IBs w/ Stoicism
-21 Hammerers
-Grudge Thrower
-Cannon
-Gyro
-Gyro
-Organ Gun

I made an error and didn't deploy all my characters in the same unit, and so my BSB ended up on the far flank from my primary battle line of Loremaster w/ Lions, Archmage w/ Phoenix Guard. Top of Turn 1, a unit of Reavers gets shot to death and creates chain panic. The Lions with Loremaster flop their Panic Test and flee 9 inches, right off the table. I'm now down by about 800 VP, lose an RBT to a cannon and am about to lose a second one to a Gyrocopter charge. The Archers get Grudge Thrown to death after repeated direct hits, losing my objective token, while the BSB gets cannon sniped out of the Sisters. I'm basically down to the PG, Archmage and Silverhelms by Turn 3 versus a largely intact Dwarf Army.

I march straight at them, Fiery Convocation on his Hammerers. He lets it through, hoping to tank the initial hit and easily Dispel with his Power Dice. He rolls a 3 for Winds of Magic, fails to roll enough to hit that 19+ cast value, gets burned down again, and at this point the Phoenix Guard are all over them. He counter-charges my flank with horde great weapon Quarellers, but the Phoenix Guard hack down the last of the Hammerers + characters (including a BSB rendered vulnerable by an IF Arcane Unforging), win the combat despite fighting to the front and flank, and reform to fight off the Quarellers just as the chewed-up remnants of my Silverhelms come charging into the fray to guarantee a Swifstride pursuit. I break the Quarellers, steal their objective, run them down, and actually end up a few hundred VP ahead for a minor win and an extra 3 battle points to my opponent's zero (the castled gunline never reached my objective in time.)

The moral of the story: It is possible to win outnumbered without playing avoidance, but it really helps to have 3++ Ward Saves on your side ;)
Warden of Tor Galadh
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