Tethlis' Army Blog, The Old World

[Ptolemy]

I'm not surprised about the lack of combo charges. The big issue I've seen from my lists is how hard it is to fit in two solid combat threats. The Phoenix just isn't enough to be one on his own. With a mere 4 attacks, even a single ranked unit with a banner is not a guarantee unless it can TStomp. So, the Phoenix ends up in the role of taking on things that a Dragon Lord would go after if you had one.

I can fit in a big block of White Lions, big block of Phoenix Guard, and a 30x-strong unit of Spears along side the Phoenix. I can always change the Spears out for some Silver Helms as well, so I don't think having strong "combat" blocks is an issue. However, I do not have the Eagle Chariots (hate the models, probably will never use) and don't have as strong of a shooting element as Tethlis does. My lists are normally infantry-based around magic.

Noble, BSB, dragon armour, sword of might, merwynd shield, golden crown - 150 points.

I'm starting to look at this build as well. As much as I'm used to having S6 on my Noble, the dude needs to survive a bit more. With S5 re-rolls and 4+ ward, maybe that's the best way going forward. I just wish the Shield gave +1AS too, but for now I'm actually looking at Cloak of Beards over the Crown, simply because the AM is using it.

How are you getting in support elements then? What are your character costs? With a cav prince, AM with book and a 175 pt mounted bsb, I can get a helm unit and a single infantry block. Every other point is in 1 phoenix plus support elements (RBTs, sisters, Skycutters/tiranocs, remaining core). I see spears in that sort of large block as a massive liability. Thats target #1 for my Daemon Prince. Ideal target, in fact. Are you just taking them for their mindrazor potential?

My issue with the Merwyrm shield is that its not actually adding much protection value. You've added 1 additional CC wound, in effect. His saving grace is how cheap he is, but the points bonus for killing the BSB in CC makes him an attractive target regardless. I look at him and see roughly the same survivability as a herald of khorne might get. I'm hoping for a wrong-headed FAQ allowing the benefit to be gained on horseback. Why not just give him a 4++ item and a Great Weapon? A 4+ armor doesn't really add anything in serious protection.

This is why I'm seeing the Helm unit as more and more optimal. Our normal BSB protection of 2+ Rerollabe or a 2+/5++ has gone to 2+ OR 4+/sort of 4++ OR just 5+/4++. The +2 armor from the horse, combined with cheap and easy access to Str7 via Star lance is very attractive for a BSB. Failing that, I'd really consider the Sea Helm on Skycutter with Charmed Shield and Golden Crown with Reaver Bow.

[HERO]

I'd love for you to visit my tactics thread You, me and Tethlis all play variations of the same ideology. Tethlis has been playing slightly more shooty than me though, but I have ~150 points to flex in my current list's rendition. Please join me in my thread as I don't want to derail his.

The shield gives you a 4+/4++. Crown would give you a nice 2++ vs. the first wound too, so it's actually not a bad combo. I think vs. most things, 3 attacks with ASF S5 is better than non-S6.

[Ptolemy]

@Ptolemy
Yeah, it's the 4 Attacks that brings the Phoenix back to the realm of balanced and reasonable. It's really nice that it's such a functional roadblock, given how hard it is to wound the dang thing. As you say, having so few combat elements in my lists is legitimate cause for concern. In my most recent incarnation, I'm looking at a Cav Prince + 9 Helms, 28 Lions with BotWD, two Skycutters and a Frost Phoenix and I consider myself well off . I keep feeling tempted to throw in some old classics, like 5-man Dragon Princes, but really their Strength 5 doesn't encourage me much. That's why I'm favoring the Skycutters... Very mobile, more cannonball saturation, and they function better corner-to-corner with the Lions or Helms than the Dragon Princes do.

I put together a functional Helm unit ala Seredain with the mind of taking advantage of Martial Prowess.

With a Giant Blade Prince and Star Lance BSB, the unit sports:

7 x Str 7 attacks from the characters
14 x Str 5 attacks from the Helms (13 knights plus High Helm)
5 x Str 3 attacks from the ponies.

That is actually BEYOND 4x Skullcrushers level of damage. Granted, they aren't as indestructible coming back and obviously don't sustain that beyond the charge, but that is one of hell of a punch and the vast majority of it is in Core.

Outside of Core tax, it costs about 400 pts for the two characters. Thats a pretty decent bargain for an aggressive hammer than can punch pretty much anything.

I'm going to give 21xSMs a shot tomorrow with BoTWD. Mostly because I expect them to perform the worst of the 3 infantry choices overall, but I'd rather test it to be sure.

I'd love for you to visit my tactics thread You, me and Tethlis all play variations of the same ideology. Tethlis has been playing slightly more shooty than me though, but I have ~150 points to flex in my current list's rendition. Please join me in my thread as I don't want to derail his.

The shield gives you a 4+/4++. Crown would give you a nice 2++ vs. the first wound too, so it's actually not a bad combo. I think vs. most things, 3 attacks with ASF S5 is better than non-S6.

Fair deal, I'll head over.

[Curu Olannon]

@Ptolemy - exactly where I started. However, regardless of the theoretical investment you are left with a unit that, if killed in combat, is worth roughly 800 victory points. Because of this, you need to either commit to the block or play around it, in my opinion. By commit I mean BOTWD. This can be achieved 2 ways: BSB and a second noble with the Star Lance, or dropping the SHelms for DP. Either way you are moving outside of the core-tax-with-cheap-add-on area. By playing around it, I mean that you either have to have something else that is so powerful that the bus isn't the only threat to an army which can, fairly reliably, tear it down to a managable size OR you have to have an army that is so avoidy that you don't have to. I don't think that the SHelm-bus can work reliably as your main damage dealing source, unless you have the BOTWD on a BSB, is basically what I'm saying. Whether you choose to go for magic + shooting as your damage dealing system or an elite unit (e.g. horde of lions, big PG unit) can of course be discussed.

Alternatively, a Star Lance Noble will still provide the unit with amazing value without necessarily making it worth commiting to. Assuming you want to go infantry heavy, you could have a noble BSB (or Sea Helm BSB for Naval Discipline which I believe is hugely underrated) on foot with anything from Reaver Bow + Ring of Fury to Armour of Silvered Steel + Halberd depending on your intended role. This allows you to take a secondary cheap-as-shit Noble to go with the "core tax" helms. A unit of 8 with musician takes up considerable core points and the Star Lance + Potion of Foolhardiness will make most MC units very, very afraid to move within charge range of it. The best? If it dies, you've only given up ~300-350 victory points as opposed to the former 800. Furthermore, you have Lord points with which to do whatever you want.

Lastly, an alternative approach for counter-attack units is the griffon noble. Tool the mount up as much as you can and give the noble Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, Charmed Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness. This unit packs an amazing amount of punishment against armour-heavy units and comes in at ~350 points. Granted, there's no core tax here but you gain a ton of mobility. Furthermore, in a defensively oriented list you won't have to worry (that much) by cannons since you're playing for the opponent to come to you. What about Empire and Dwarfs? The first will have good targets regardless in most lists (Phoenix, RBTs), the latter has a serious issue with just about any unit running the BOTWD.

[Lord Anathir]

My dwarfs pack 40 xbows and an organ worth of non magical shooting (with rune of challenge to back it up). I feel confident they can handle any new HE list more so then the old book as lions now do not have rerolls. Only thing that is an x factor is some IF game winning spell at a key moment.

[Paricidas]

This allows you to take a secondary cheap-as-shit Noble to go with the "core tax" helms. A unit of 8 with musician takes up considerable core points and the Star Lance + Potion of Foolhardiness will make most MC units very, very afraid to move within charge range of it.

that really really depends on the unit size of the MC. I cant see 7 demis creaming their Pants when they catch a Charge with only 12 medium to high strengh attacks...

[Shadeseraph]

This allows you to take a secondary cheap-as-shit Noble to go with the "core tax" helms. A unit of 8 with musician takes up considerable core points and the Star Lance + Potion of Foolhardiness will make most MC units very, very afraid to move within charge range of it.

that really really depends on the unit size of the MC. I cant see 7 demis creaming their Pants when they catch a Charge with only 12 medium to high strengh attacks...

Actually that's a size were those DGK start to deserve the attention of a dedicated frostheart phoenix or magic support. S4 AP isn't as scary as S5 AP by a long way.

[Tethlis]

Schwing. A game versus a slightly different Ogre setup.

I had:

-Level 4 with Book of Hoeth, Ironcurse Icon, Dragonbane Gem, Lore of Shadow
-Level 1 with Dispel Scroll, Lore of Heavens
-Noble with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, battle standard
-10 Archers w/ musi
-9 Silverhelms w/ fc
-5 Reavers w/ musi
-5 Reavers w/ musi
-5 Reavers w/ musi
-25 Phoenix Guard w/ fc, Razor Standard
-21 White Lions w/ fc, Banner of the World Dragon
-12 Sisters of Avelorn
-RBT
-RBT
-Frost Phoenix

My opponent was packing:

-Tyrant w/ Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Crown of Command
-Bruiser w/ great weapon, Runemaw Banner
-Butcher w/ great weapon, Gut Magic
-Butcher w/ great weapon, Beasts (their may have been Hellheart or Scrolls buried in here, but it never came up.)
-11 Ironguts w/ full command, Dragonhide Banner
-9 Ogre Bulls w/ full command, 2x hand weapons
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-3 Mournfangs w/ musi, standard
-3 Leadbelchers
-3 Leadbelchers
-Ironblaster


Deployment
Between the Reavers and the tower where I knew I would want ranged units to go, I was able to get 5 drops on the table before I had to put down anything important. This gave me a good idea of where to expect my opponent, and felt confident about the matchups. With +1, I was able to nail down first turn. Spell-wise, I had Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Withering, Pit of Shades, and Iceshard Blizzard. Pretty much a perfect blend of offense and defense. He rolled up Toothcracker, Bullgorger, Wildform and Amber Spear.



Asur Turn 1
Everything rolled out the gate, not too far forward but far enough to get within spell ranges and keep his units at arm's length from reaching my backfield. Magic was 2/1, which was enough to squeeze off Withering on the Ironblaster and get it down to Toughness 3. I pulled the trigger with the RBTs and melted it off the table with some decent rolls. The ladies lit up the Leadbelchers on the right, chewing one up but not scoring Panic.



Ogre Turn 1
Lots of dashing forward, with Sabertusks crowding my charge lanes a bit. Shooting was indifferent, with the good shooting protection my primary units able to shrug pretty much everything off. Magic snuck an Amber Spear through to kill a Silverhelm.



Asur Turn 2
I charged the left Reavers up to get them out of the way, opening up a charge lane from my Phoenix Guard to the Mournfangs. I needed average distance, rolled badly and failed the charge. The Silverhelms had a cheeky charge opportunity on the left-most Leadbelchers, needing easy distance to reach. The Belchers fled that charge, and I redirected to a Mournfang who fled also and left the Silverhelms waltzing forward. I ran a Reaver up to screen for the Helms and give the White Lions room to play. Everything else shuffled, with my characters moving out of World Dragon coverage and safely into the backline.

A 3/3 phase saw my opponent let a boosted Miasma through on the Mournfangs, while failing to stop the Pit of Shades that nuked down 2 Mournfangs. Shooting let me take down a Sabertusk, but a bad round of rolls meant I had to use most of my firepower to do it.

In combat, the Reavers hitting the Sabertusk got stalled and the Sabertusk held.



Ogre Turn 2
The Bulls hit the Reavers, while the remaining Mournfang dashed forward to block off the Phoenix Guard and stop them double-teaming the Ironguts alongside the Lions. The Ironguts plowed into the flank of the Reavers who got held up on the Sabertusk, bringing them right into the sights of my White Lions. The Book AM held his 5/1 magic phase in check wonderfully, and his shooting achieved little. In combat, Reavers died for the cause.



Asur Turn 3
The Lions and Frost Phoenix hit the Ironguts/Tyrant, while the Helms and Reavers ran up to congest the Bulls' charge lanes, and either force a double-flee or point the Bulls in the wrong direction. The Phoenix Guard ran into the Mournfang my opponent offered them.

I was worried that I'd hit a brick wall in the magic phase since I didn't know where the Runemaw banner was, but luckily I picked the proper choice and was able to spam Hexes on the Ironguts. Iceshard Blizzard was stopped, but Miasma and Enfeebling Foe snuck through with a 6/3 Magic Phase.

Shooting scoured a Sabertusk and the right-most Leadbelcher unit off the table.

In combat... I've fought some gratifying one-sided combats thanks to Lore of Shadow, but nothing is quite as fun as Strength 3 Ironguts and a Strength 2 Tyrant. I've never considered Enfeebling Foe a fantastic spell, due to the unpredictable nature of D3s and the fact that you have to seriously debuff an opponent to make them wound Elves on anything but a 2+. Enfeebling combined with a Frost Phoenix is amazing though, and neutered the Ironguts completely. Lots of chopping, dust cleared, and I'd barely taken a scratch and the Guts held thanks to Crown of Talentless Stubborn. My opponent popped the Dragonhide Banner and churned out a big volume of hits, but Banner of the World Dragon and the fact that White Lions already have ASL meant I didn't care at all. The Phoenix Guard sliced and diced the Mournfang and dashed forward, hoping to move around the combat and look for some flank angles.



Ogre Turn 3
I double-fled the the Bulls with my cav, and the remaining Leadbelchers moved up to block the Phoenix Guard. The last Sabertusk failed to rally and left the table. My opponent rolled up a 3/3 Magic Phase, 6-diced Wyssan's Wildform on the Ironguts, and rolled so shockingly low that I was able to stop it with three dice and some help from the Book. Yay book...

In combat, the Lions didn't roll too hot and the Tyrant absorbed damage effortlessly. The Ogres couldn't manage much in return though, and held against on Stubborn.



Asur Turn 4
The Phoenix Guard strolled forward into the Ironblasters, while my Cav rallied and the Reavers dashed back over to block the Ironguts once again. Oh I love Core Movement 9 Fast Cavalry so much. My Archers and accompanying mages marched behind the safety of the White Lions. In combat, I kept up the Hexing pressure and the Ironguts couldn't manage much damage at all. Their attacks were bouncing off the White Lions, who gleefully hacked them down to just the Tyrant. Shooting started putting pressure on the Bull unit, killing a couple (failed to mark that on the diagram.) The Leadbelchers didn't react too well to my Phoenix Guard, and despite some fairly poor rolling on my part they fled handily and I reformed.



Ogre Turn 4
The Bulls charged the blocking Reavers, the Belchers failed to rally and kept high-tailing it towards the table edge. Some attempts at buffing were contained. I swung away at the Tyrant, but managed no wounds. I find myself not really missing the re-rolls on Lions too much, compared to the other nice advantages they received, but I particularly miss it when they're looking at 5+ to hit across a small frontage (like an Ogre Tyrant or Daemon Prince.) I still won thanks to static CR, but the Tyrant wasn't going anywhere. The Bulls reformed to face the Phoenix Guard.



Asur Turn 5
In this final turn, the Phoenix Guard nailed their charge into the Bulls while the Silver Helms came into the flank. With the Bulls at only Strength 4, and the Phoenix Guard easily able to soak up the great weapon hits from the characters, this combat was a done deal even with Runemaw to deflect my Hexes. With my looking to eventually clear the table, and my shooting having mopped up most of his chaff, my opponent and I called it a game at this point.



I had lost:

-5 Reavers w/ musi
-5 Reavers w/ musi
-5 Reavers w/ musi


My opponent was looking to lose:

-Bruiser w/ great weapon, Runemaw Banner
-Butcher w/ great weapon, Gut Magic
-Butcher w/ great weapon, Beasts
-11 Ironguts w/ full command, Dragonhide Banner
-9 Ogre Bulls w/ full command, 2x hand weapons
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-3 Mournfangs w/ musi, standard
-3 Leadbelchers
-3 Leadbelchers
-Ironblaster

A handy win for the Elves

Post-game thoughts:
Part of me was hoping that I wouldn't go back to Shadow Magic in the new book, since I've used it with such regularity for years. I have to say though, it's very reassuring to have it on the table. I like the fact that it feels more defensive now than it ever felt before, thanks to options like Banner of the World Dragon and the Ice Phoenix which help the Lions survive things they couldn't before. Pit of Shades is great for drawing early-game scrolls, Miasma and Enfeebling are excellent, but Withering is really the secret ingredient for magic Elven shooting work. This very humble shooting phase has become incredibly potent, since Pit and Miasma can draw dice very effectively (noone wants their monster getting nuked, or their lumbering Deathstar taken down to Movement 1) which leaves the door open for that Toughness debuff.

Other than that, Phoenix Guard and Lions continue to form a solid tag-team. They both hit well, they're both resilient to shooting, and neither breaks from combat. It's nice to continue using them again (it also means less new painting I have to do!) I may not have the power of Banner of Sorcery to help force Shadows through, but overall they can rely on much, much better support in the form of diverse Core Cav, a respectable shooting phase and the Phoenix.

I was hoping for a game v Chaos Dwarves tonight, but another High Elf player beat me to the punch on that one so I didn't get to try my hand against dual Magma Cannons and the K'daai Destroyer. Hopefully this weekend though, that should be a good challenge since I don't have Dragon Princes to easily tank the K'daai.

[Tethlis]

It's also worth noting that I've had a couple games VC, using the same list. One was against a clubmate using something experimental, which ended well for me. I had another game versus a tougher build, listed below. My memory on this one was a bit hazy (few too many drinks, so I may be messing up the point values or amount of chaff present) but it's a good one to mention since it's a pretty standard matchup and my list performed well against it.

-Blenderlord
-Necro
-Necro
-Cairn Wraith
-Cairn Wraith
-Cairn Wraith
-40 Ghouls
-40 Skeletons
-5 Dire Wolves
-5 Dire Wolves
-5 Dire Wolves
-Black Knight Bus
-2 Bat Swarms
-Spirit Host
-Spirit Host
-Terrorgheist
-Terrorgheist

Deployment



Highlights:

-Scored First Turn, and Pit of Shades panicked my opponent and pulled a scroll which let me get Withering off on a Terrorgheist. I blasted that one down on Turn 1.

-I kept my Phoenix and warmachines buried in my deployment zone, so the other Gheist couldn't get close to them. Having White Lions who get a good Ward versus Terrorgheist screams is big. The remaining Gheist hid while waiting for a good target to edge out of my deployment zone, but did very little in the course of the game.

-The Sisters' ability to drop Spirit Hosts was key here. With my conventional shooting able to take out the rest of his redirectors, and with the Sisters shooting down Ethereals, I was perfectly comfortable sitting back and taking my time to eradicate his chaff. As a result, I was able to pick combats very freely and had great control over dictating matchups.

-The Silverhelms held up the Skeletons + 3 Cairn Wraiths for a few rounds of combat, with the Cairn Wraiths forced to stay bunkered to avoid the Sisters' shooting. The Helm's good WS and armor kept the Cairn Wraiths mostly at bay, with the Helms killing enough skellies each turn to keep their Break Tests comfortable. Running 3-wide was very important here, meaning that I could still sneak attacks on Skelletons without the Cairn Wraiths completely blocking off attacks with their Ethereal.

-My opponent failed to keep the Knights away from the Phoenix Guard, who ended up in the flank of the Black Knight bus and easily tanked the Blenderlord. The combination of ASF and 4+ Ward basically shut down the Lord's attacks, limiting him to just a few kills per round, and the Black Knights did very little. I followed-up with the Frost Phoenix a turn later, adding a couple more kills + flank + charge bonus, and Shadow Magic got some traction for critical Hexes. My opponent switched the Lord's attacks over to the Phoenix to try and generate some Red Fury mojo, but the effective Toughness 7 and Ward Save meant the Phoenix wasn't much better for him than the Phoenix Guard. The bus crumbled down, taking most of the army with it and my opponent called it quits.

[Ferny]

Looks good - I think I'll lift the list more or less as is.

Couple of questions:

You seem to be dealing with the threat well, but the early comments on the forum RE: frost pheonix was that while it'd be great for us, protecting it from cannons might be tricky. I don't see it as being necessarily too bad (they do need to hit, and while better than bolt throwers, it isn't a done deal), they need to then not roll a 1 to wound...but critically, they need to roll high on their wounds roll...and then we have a ward. I can see them being a pretty frustrating target. But the risk remains I guess. How are you finding it keeping him alive from artillery?

Lores:
Iceshard is excellent for a Lv1. Do you rate it higher than Wyssans? Not tempted to upgrade to Lv2 for an extra spell? (I know, I know, where would the points come from).

Lv 4 with Shadow is a standard issue 7th build, but do you need it with this format of 8th? Sure, -D3T helps tons for our shooting, but you've not got that much shooting in this list and other lores help too with the right spells (fire, metal, high, heavens...). -D3S with pheonix is great, but again, there are other lores which offer decent defence. The big one - Mindrazor - I don't think you need so much with this build; PG are solid (sure, improved with it, but what isn't), WL fill the Mindrazor role pretty well without it, no big archer blocks, corehelms fairly small unit to benefit. I'd have thought this is actually one HE list which could get more benefit from the BoH on a different lore than Shadow (any of the usual suspects really). Are you wedded to Shadow and if so why, or what others might you use?

Characters:
Where would you tend to place them? They're all quite squishy now. This is the big thing I'm trying to work out in my head (pre-games).

Bolt Throwers:
Are you feeling the love yet? I'm still not, but I've seen the arguments in their favour and they basically cost the same as a 5man DP team, whose role is arguably already filled from Core, so I can see a spot for them. And I do like the models. I just don't rate them from 7th...

[Tethlis]

Very observant, and you've pretty much figured out all the areas of the list that I'm still working on myself.

-Regarding the Frost Phoenix's survivability versus cannons, I figure I have plenty of Fast Cav, Pit of Shades, and even the shooting can scrape wounds off them. As you say, killing the bird as a whole is no easy feat with a decent amount of wounds plus a Ward Save. I'll be facing Dwarves in the next couple of weeks, and hopefully Chaos Dwarves this weekend, so hopefully that can help put it to the test.

-Wildform is great, but the high casting value is a serious chore for a Level 1. I would like to get him up to a Level 2, because I think Heavens has such a good array of spells and I think that having a Level 2 who knows some of them would help alleviate the issues you've mentioned regarding shadow. All of that being said, the Lore choice overall feels like less of a critical decision to me than it was last book, simply because we can rely on it a lot less now. Last book, our Lore choice effectively became part of our battle plan, and we relied on it to do pretty much anything in any phase. Now my operating premise is "if I can only get off one spell a turn, which array of spells do I want it to be?" I've gone with Shadow/Heavens because the debuffs presented there are all valuable in the opening and late turns of the game or once units hit combat, and there's also some direct damage mixed in. The reaction I tend to see when an opponent faces Shadow is that there's one spell they hate the most, whether it be Withering, Pit of Shades, or saving a pack of dice for a Mindrazor that never comes. That psychological reaction tends to be pretty strong compared to other lores, where opponents don't tend to panic as much, and I find that Shadow polarizes how an opponent uses their dice and often leaves room to sneak at least one critical Hex through. Iceshard Blizzard is just icing... Shadow steals the show, and then Iceshard shuts down a crucial warmachines or nullifies someone's To Hit roll in a key combat.

True, Spears and piles of Archers would make more sense to maximize Withering or Mindrazor, but this is a case of using the Lore to support the troops I want to use, rather than picking troops to support the Lore I want to use. You mentioned other lores that could get the job done, but really... What other Lores can control the movement phase, nuke nasty monsters or low Initiative regiments, offer Hexes to enhance unit survivability, as well as having a Panic Button style augment that you can 6-dice when you absolutely have to win a combat? Nothing comes to mind.

-For characters, the Mages start out in the White Lions unless I think I'll need to advance full-tilt. Banner of the World Dragon for miscast protection is the idea there, as well as countering sniper spells like Lore of Death. Basically it just comes down to paying attention during deployment to see what spells your opponent is packing, and if you suspect there's a threat to your casters, then BotWD gives them all the protection they need. It's not quite as self-contained as a nice 4+ Ward, but being able to spend those points on other things is a nice luxury when the BotWD gives such good protection.

Once it gets close to combat time, I bail the casters out of the Lions and into a Sister or Archer unit if necessary. I keep an eye on those things during deployment, making sure they have something nearby to hide in once the White Lions get close to combat. Lore of Shadow isn't bad here too, letting the AM swap out with the BSB if necessary. Obviously if there's Dwellers on the table, I'll keep them out of my main combat blocks so my opponent is forced to nuke archers/Sisters.

For the BSB, I try to keep him in the Lions when possible to let him benefit from BotWD as well. In the quick report I posted against VC, my opponent's Lord exploded the BSB effortlessly because he was in the Phoenix Guard, and therefore had no Ward Save. I think this one comes down to a judgement call to a certain degree, because the Phoenix Guard like having a few Strength 6 Attacks to give them teeth, but the White Lions offer better protection. It also means my Hexes are less spread around the board... Anything that can protect the Lions will protect the BSB also, while the Phoenixes want to focus more on killing things than they do on staying alive. That's my long-winded way of saying that the BSB does well with the Lions

-Bolt Throwers: Shadow Magic + Sisters did the trick here for me. I don't know if my dice just took some time to warm up, or if I've hit on a nice formula, but the track record these guys have had in my recent games is astounding. Killing a Terrorgheist Turn 1, killing an Ironblaster Turn 1, shredding chaff effortlessly, gunning down Chimeras, they do make it look very easy when working on conjunction with the Maiden Guard and Shadow Magic. I've become much more appreciative of their abilities. I personally just try not to pretend the single shot exists, because it feels like a poor substitute for a cannon. Instead, I focus on targets that can be hurt by the Repeater Shot, and focus mostly on using that. Add in Withering, and a high volume of Strength 4, Armor Piercing shots from the RBTs and Sisters has become a surprisingly potent shooting phase. I even have Ogre players afraid of it, since Pit of Shades is a must-stop Dispel for them and often doesn't leave Dice for Withering

[Velmates]

Hey, thank you very much for those in-depth battle reports! I've learned much from them about High Elf tactics and Warhammer in general. I'm always looking forward for more.

Since the key units of your current list are the same as in older days, I wanted to ask, if you feel that the elements that actually have changed are performing better that the old ones. Specifically I wanted to know if you think that:

- Helms, Reavers and some Archers for core are better than the block of 30 Spears and 2x15 Archers (or even 30 Spears, 12 Archers and 2x5 Reavers?). Do you miss the Archers or are 10/12 enough (combined with Sisters and RBTs)?
- Reavers are as good as Eagles as redirectors and such? Would you suggest to drop 2x Eagles for 2x RBTs (in case you have the Reavers in core of course)?
- Do you miss your DP?

Thanks in advance!

- Velmates

[Ferny]

Good response. I think I will lift this as my starting game list with only a couple of minor changes:

1. I'm still not convinced by Shadow. It's definitely not a bad selection, but I used it so much last edition I'd like to try out other things given that the list can cope without it. I'll use High first because I want to play with my new toys . If that doesn't work out so much then I'll probably go Heavens for this list, or possibly Life. I may end up reverting to Shadow in the end, but I don't want to start there.

2. I may fiddle slightly with the magic items set-up/upgrade to Lv2. Not immidiately sure where the points will come from but they look pretty naked - although that's part of the charm. These stripped down characters are partly what permit there to be two pretty large elite combat blocks. But other than that, definitely the starting point I want.

It's basically my 7th ed list converted to 8th; more manageable sized WL and PG units with more exciting banners (AP and BotWD rather than sorcery and flame), unit of heavy cav (previously 5 DP), archer core (now fewer, but upgraded to include BT and Sisters from rare), fast chaff (reavers replacing eagles), and Lv 4/Lv2 + BSB. With a Pheonix thrown in for fun. I'll try out other lists (griffons, chariots, 3-wide character bunker/point denial, fast evasion, cavalryhammer, massive shooting), but this is where I feel most comfortable starting. Glad I've stumbled upon this list as I was starting to fry trying to squeeze /everything!/ in to my new list!

[Ptolemy]

That seems to me like a real test game. You got your units to perform 'as intended' and naturally, they did the job. The presence of the Frostheart in the Gutstar combat seems really impressive.

Like you, I REALLY want to move away from Shadow. I know its good and I know how it works and the synergies are obvious. PG are just begging for Mindrazor, particularlly with MP and maintaining of rerolls.

I'm curious about one statement you made especially...

-Bolt Throwers: I personally just try not to pretend the single shot exists, because it feels like a poor substitute for a cannon. Instead, I focus on targets that can be hurt by the Repeater Shot, and focus mostly on using that.

What targets/matchups/lists would you prioritize to use the single shot instead?

[HERO]

As confirmed in these BRs, it's clear that Shadow will remain HE's best friend in this new book.

The lore just synergizes with everything we want to do. I have noted that in my tactics thread, put it into practice, Tethlis also put it into practice, so we must be doing something right.

@Tethlis: What do you think are the worst matchups for your list atm?

[Tethlis]

@Ptolemy

What targets/matchups/lists would you prioritize to use the single shot instead?

In my early games against WoC, I was shooting the single shot at everything. Chariots, Chimeras, Skullcrushers, and having poor results. Going back, I think probability wise those were still good moves, but I also think I was setting my expectations too high. Since I've been giving Shadow a try with the new book, I find the long-range consistent accuracy of the RBT's repeater show, plus the decent -2 to armor it provides, is just great for tearing up anything that isn't getting much of a save (either because you're negating Regen with Sisters, or its armor simply isn't high enough to afford much protection against a -2 Modifiers.)

That being said, there are situations where the Repeater Show just won't pull its weight. I think one example would be the Mournfangs here. A full Repeater Volley at short range is managing 1 wound... Not bad, but not fantastic. That number gets even worse versus the 1+ Save stuff out there. So I thin I'd still be shooting single-shots at anything whose armor is just too good to get past, such as Monstrous Cav or Steam Tanks. The Repeater Show is great for applying that consistent pressure at long range, but I still think the RBT as a whole is seriously lacking in some matchups simply because the single shot has so many areas where it can go wrong. I'm sure players have luck with the single shot on a regular basis, but unfortunately I'm not one of them.

Regarding your other comments, the Frost Phoenix in the Gustar was really telling. I've not sure I've ever had a combat where a Strength 6 opponent didn't murderize White Lions when they managed to hit. Generally I've focused on debuffing To Hit, either with stacking Pha's Protection/Speed of Light or applying Miasma. Watching that combat unfold was like a revelation, since my opponent was also focused on preserving his ability to hit by trying to dispel Miasma and Iceshard, and taking for granted he'd be able to Wound as long as he could hit. Whoops for him...

@Ferny

1. Nothing wrong with trying other Lores, and I plan to do the same. I started out with the Loremaster and High Magic, and I found that I simply didn't have enough dice to stretch all of that around. I tried only High Magic, and found that the spells were too circumstantial to have impact when I really needed them. Similarly, I tried only the Loremaster, and while I liked it a lot I did feel like I was paying a lot of points for a choice that wasn't as optimized as I was like. As you've encountered, we're really trying to squeeze every last point out of our lists, and add in as many viable combat threats as possible. I felt the Loremaster slightly hampered my ability to do that, though the broad spell selection was great.

At the end of the day, I don't need spectacular uber nukes, but I do want some spell redundancy so that I can use multiple spells to achieve the same objective. For me, Shadow/Heavens has that natural redundancy. You have multiple spells to make your troops hard to hit, multiple spells to scare the enemy at range, multiple spells to make your troops hit the enemy harder. The Coven of Light did that too, with multiple spells to make your troops hard to hit, multiple spells to nuke the enemy at range. Though High Magic has some great toys, I don't feel it can create that stable redundancy I'm looking for. If my opponent doesn't want me healing my caster... Dispel Apotheosis, then I'm out of luck. If he doesn't want to be nuked, Scroll Fiery Convocation and that's that. Please try it, and I would like to hear about your success with it.

2. I think naked characters may be a meta thing to a certain extent. I personally find High Elves are supreme backline defenders. With a ton of bows and ASF, light warmachine hunters really have a hard time getting to our backline casters. Similarly, Banner of the World Dragon eliminates the need for me to have a Ward Save, Magic Resistance, etc. to stop sniper spells. I feel like this can be a good setup that's still friendly on points. In our last book, I did tend to trick my characters to the gills with a toolbox of useful items. With most of those options gone, there are fewer options out there that I absolutely must have besides a Scroll and the Book. Definitely try to get that Heavens caster to Level 2 though... That's my big goal with list fiddling right now.

I feel like a bit of a cop out, reverting to a familiar army setup and style when I have a whole new book to play with, and that sounds like something you can relate to. Ptolemy can as well, and I really commend the fact that he's tackling a ton of different units and deliberately handicapping himself to maximize his learning experience (he's far bolder than I am...)

I have given a few different setups a try, and will continue to do so, but I really want to settle on a baseline build I was comfortable with. I think the above-mentioned list is probably it, as I continue to refine it based on experience. I hope you find it useful.

@Velmates
Happy to oblige with the reports. Ulthuan.net, like many forums, has a lot of really excellent players on it. The thing I like here though is that most of those players take the time to write out their reports and share them with the community. One great thing about our last book, even though it was more limited compared to our current one, it still had a lot of different, viable playstyles in the early days of 7th edition. As a result, there was a lot of discussion back then. I think that got toned down a bit when things got tougher, the meta changed up to feature more monsters/monstrous cav, and only a few of our builds cold really start pulling their weight. Now that we have a new book, we're seeing a lot of discussion surface again, and all those familiar players are writing up their reports. I learn from them all the time, and I try to reciprocate by sharing my own experiences.

To answer your questions:

-Helms, Reavers and a few Archers may not necessarily be "better" than 30 Spears and 2x15 Archers in the context of Lore of Shadow, but it's much better in terms of flexibility. The Reavers have been fantastic... I thought that they would be a poor man's substitute to Great Eagles, but they're able to do a lot of things that Eagles are not. Similarly, giving them bows helps to raise the amount of shooting in my list, since even those little Strength 3 arrows add up when killing redirectors. I haven't run against a strong warmachine opponent yet, but I feel like the Reavers and Silverhelms will really, really pull their weight in those matchups by putting heavy pressure on an opponent's backline. The Helms aren't great, but they're not bad either. I can sacrifice them without losing too many points, and they can still charge a flank/rear in support of my primary blocks and contribute more kills/CR than they give up. Some opponents overestimate them, which makes them play more cautiously and gives me room to be aggressive, and some opponents underestimate them and give me a chance for an easy charge. Right now, I'm playing them as a cross between Reavers and an Eagle Rider. They can chase off chaff, they can die if necessary, but they're still mobile enough and have a small enough footprint that they can get off some sneaky charges or run into an enemy backfield and cause them some problems. I fully admit I'm probably not using them to their full potential since I haven't used Silver Helms since 6th edition, but I'm excited to keep experimenting. I may try dropping the unit of 9 down to two separate units of 5, which makes them even more flexibly/disposable than they are now.

-I touched upon this slightly, but the Reavers are quite good. I think they can fully replace Eagles in some lists, though they require a little more thought to use. I do think High Elves can never have too many redirectors... With 3 units of Reavers and no Eagles, I consider myself at bare minimum for having enough Redirectors on the table. I do think that 2x Bolt Throwers could be a good substitute for 2x Eagles, because while the bolt throwers don't help you redirect, they are very good at killing off enemy redirectors, and that alone can help you win the chaff war in addition to shooting things that are actually useful. So RBTs still contribute to redirecting as a whole, even if they themselves are not parking in front of an enemy block and waiting to die like Eagles are.
-I miss the Dragon Princes to a certain extent, but I found they were taking big risks in my meta. Either they were charging things they could barely hurt (Chimeras, Ironblasters, Hammerers, Bret Lance formations), things that could easily destroy them with return attacks (Ironguts, Executioners, Nurgle Warriors) or units where their attacks were complete overkill (Empire/Skaven warmachine teams, Skeleton Archers.) I do miss having their ability to make a rapid strike and contribute some combat resolution, but I find the Phoenix does that pretty reliably too and I really don't have to worry about the Phoenix dying. Similarly, Reavers can chase after light stuff pretty nicely, and Silver Helms can charge a flank or rear with some Strength 5 Attacks also. So while I like Dragon Princes a lot, and miss them a lot, I do feel like I'd rather having the staying power of infantry compared to the one-round-only Strength 5 hits of the Princes.

@HERO
I still think this list is vulnerable to Daemon Princes. WoC are my big loss with this book so far, and I'm going to see how this current list handles them tomorrow. Besides bolt throwers, my only real hope is to reel it into combat, pop off Mindrazor, and hope to hack it apart in one round before it Soulfeeds itself back to full next round. Not great odds, it relies on the Chaos player being pretty stupid.

I'll also be curious about Dwarves too... I think my combat blocks are pretty well protected against their warmachines thanks to the Ward Saves, but the White Lions are vulnerable to Organ Gun salvoes and local Dwarf players know this. If they can keep my fast stuff off their machines long enough, they could definitely punish my regiments down to the point where their too depleted to cope with T4, Strength 5+ great weapon Dwarves. Similarly, without Banner of Sorcery, I will never get a spell off unless I IF it. Tricky.

Similarly, Chaos Dwarves offer the same danger. They tend to have less in the way of combat blocks, but make up for it with Magma Cannons and the K'daai Destroyer (neither of which are Magical Attacks, and CD players know this.) My lack of Dragon Princes could bite me in the ass, since they're so good at tanking and hunting both of those choices while the rest of my army gathers VP. Shadows isn't a reliable counter to a K'daai I think, so that could get interesting.

I think Dark Elves will be a bad matchup too, since our book no longer has any reliable counter for flying unkillable Lords besides ramming them with a Frost Phoenix and hoping to hang them up for a good chunk of turns. If a Pendant Lord holds up the Phoenix Guard and takes them out of the game, everything else in the list is easy meat for Witch Elves (especially the White Lions.) I can probably cope with Hydras thanks to magic, RBTs and Sisters, but you never know how long you can keep such units alive since repeater crossbows and Shades are very good at tearing apart a High Elf backline.

I hope to get games against all of these opponents in the next week or so, and see if I'm right.

[HERO]

@HERO
I still think this list is vulnerable to Daemon Princes. WoC are my big loss with this book so far, and I'm going to see how this current list handles them tomorrow. Besides bolt throwers, my only real hope is to reel it into combat, pop off Mindrazor, and hope to hack it apart in one round before it Soulfeeds itself back to full next round. Not great odds, it relies on the Chaos player being pretty stupid.

I'll also be curious about Dwarves too... I think my combat blocks are pretty well protected against their warmachines thanks to the Ward Saves, but the White Lions are vulnerable to Organ Gun salvoes and local Dwarf players know this. If they can keep my fast stuff off their machines long enough, they could definitely punish my regiments down to the point where their too depleted to cope with T4, Strength 5+ great weapon Dwarves. Similarly, without Banner of Sorcery, I will never get a spell off unless I IF it. Tricky.

Similarly, Chaos Dwarves offer the same danger. They tend to have less in the way of combat blocks, but make up for it with Magma Cannons and the K'daai Destroyer (neither of which are Magical Attacks, and CD players know this.) My lack of Dragon Princes could bite me in the ass, since they're so good at tanking and hunting both of those choices while the rest of my army gathers VP. Shadows isn't a reliable counter to a K'daai I think, so that could get interesting.

I think Dark Elves will be a bad matchup too, since our book no longer has any reliable counter for flying unkillable Lords besides ramming them with a Frost Phoenix and hoping to hang them up for a good chunk of turns. If a Pendant Lord holds up the Phoenix Guard and takes them out of the game, everything else in the list is easy meat for Witch Elves (especially the White Lions.) I can probably cope with Hydras thanks to magic, RBTs and Sisters, but you never know how long you can keep such units alive since repeater crossbows and Shades are very good at tearing apart a High Elf backline.

I hope to get games against all of these opponents in the next week or so, and see if I'm right.

In addition to that, I'm not feeling the greatest vs. Lizardmen or a solidified Empire list with the right tools. Helblasters, Cannons, Steam Tanks, all of which among a toolbox army that have solid armor saves, mobility and Stubborn. I feel an optimized Lizards list can tear us a new one due to Salamanders being virtually immune to shooting, high toughness, mundane attacks combat blocks, and generally not breaking or caring about combat resolution. The Slaan is just so good right now compared to the options we have against it.

Does that sound right to you?

That leaves this particular playstyle/list vulnerable to a good amount of the uncomped/slight comp tournament scene. I also feel that a well played VC list will be able to dish out the damage, and maybe we'll see a rise of Mortis + Crypt Horrors + Regen blocks to take advantage of our tendency to take BotWD. They can just overpowered and play attrition much better than we can; especially since we don't have the numbers. Poison also makes the Frostbird look like a giant waste of points. Skinks, Ghouls, Horrors, I'm looking at you.

Lastly, the follow up on the RBT Single Shot - if you're taking High Magic, you should be looking at single-shot options. Hand of Glory really makes the difference when those shots need to count.

[Jimmy]

Great reports Tethlis, always a pleasure to read.

On the Ogre battle, what do you think your opponent could have done differently to threaten you more?

[Tethlis]

@HERO

Regarding Lizardmen:
I do agree that the Slann is just a powerhouse right now. I think one useful asset is that we're capable of taking on Lizardmen without relying on the magic phase, since I think our troops can take on theirs pretty reliably. When facing Skink Heavy, if our ranged units can be buried during deployment to insulate them from Camo Skinks on Turn 1, I think our abundance of Heavy Cavalry and infantry with good missile protection makes it pretty easy to hunt down and destroy skink chaff quickly. I agree regarding Salamanders, never fun, but my hope is that Cav and the Phoenix can keep them at arm's length and hopefully interdict or jam them up before they can get too close. I agree this could be tough, but I think a lot of it will come down to specifics of deployment, i.e. exactly what your opponent brings to the table and how he chooses to use it. I'll add Lizards to my To Do list though, and try get some tabletop experience against them soon.

Regarding Empire:
I really like Shadows in this matchup. There are a lot of good Pit of Shades targets, and even without debuffing with Miasma you can still do a lot of damage with Pit of Shades on a big Demigryph or Knight unit (to say nothing of Warmachines, Steam Tank, etc.)

Similarly, To Hit Modifiers hurt these guys badly (especially if you survive that first turn of re-rolls To Hit) and their Strength isn't so high that they can shrug off Enfeebling either.

The Helblaster is a pain in the ass, but the long range on RBTs and longbows can be pretty decent at scraping individual wounds off those 3-crew machines and taking them down. A lot of success here comes down to relative position of shooting units and terrain deployment, but at least Helblasters aren't a huge threat unless you make the judgement call to walk into their active range. Since High Elves now have plenty of Cav in Core too, there's always the chance of overwhelming their firepower by sneaking a Reaver unit into the backfield by Turn 2. If the cannons go for the RBTs, you can hopefully get a Phoenix up a flank and into the machines. If they go for the RBTs, hopefully that lets you commit the Phoenix to where it's most needed.

I do think Phoenix Guard and White Lions will stack up well against those Cav though, especially with hexes and Frost Phoenix. White Lions can do their job opening armor, and can shrug off the bulk of knightstar killing power by tanking the characters with banner of the World Dragon. The actual Knightly Order don't hit too hard unless you eat their full Hatred + lance charge right in the face.

Definitely not an easy matchup, but the Empire I tend to see usually doesn't build so heavy for cav. I know that's the premium build these days though, but I'm not sure I'll get to offer first-hand experience on it unless I find a player willing to put it together for me. You may have to experiment with that particular tough matchup on your own.

@Jimmy
Thanks for reading, Jimmy. I think the Ogre player was in a tough position list-wise, but in terms of actual movement on the table I think he needed to babysit his redirectors better in the opening turns, then use them aggressively and decisively to pick the right matchups. Since I have both Shadow and the Phoenix, letting this list initiate combat is dangerous since it can effectively debuff an enemy unit to worthlessness. I think he needed to be smarter with his Mournfangs too, it was just a low charge roll that stopped me reaching them in Turn 2, and leaving them hanging out to eat Pit of Shades was rough also. He placed them down opposite my regiments during deployment, probably thinking their impact hits and stomp were an effective solution to Elven infantry blocks, but they would have been very powerful crashing through the weak parts in my line and going for my backfield. I would have had to focus a lot of shooting and magic there to try and stop them, which could have let him preserve his redirectors in the opening turns and given him an edge in picking combats.

On the topic of magic in general, as I mentioned, I don't know if he had either the Hellheart or a Scroll, but they could have been really valuable to him in this game and they never were used. I kept my casters tucked pretty far back, expecting Hellheart and hoping the random range wouldn't reach my casters, but if he had been able to neutralize a crucial turn of Hexing that could have stopped the Irongut/White Lions combat form being so one-sided. I also think the Tyrant would have been happier far away from the Banner of the World Dragon. My club knows it's there, they know the White Lions have it, so he should have either charged the Tyrant out on his own to Solo Tarpit and maneuvered the Ironguts for a better matchup, or moved his Runemaw-carrying Bruiser BSB to the Ironguts (since it was clear they were most likely to engage in combat first) and let them benefit from the Hex protection as well as the Bruiser's extra fighting ability. When an army relies that much on characters, and those characters fulfill an important role (keeping a unit Stubborn, keeping a unit immune to magic, hurting/miscasting nearby enemy casters) I think you have to be really fluid and dynamic about shifting those characters from unit to unit, where they'll be needed most.

Lastly, Ballistic Skill based shooting... It needs to roll to hit, and therefore can be obstructed or have modifiers applied to it very easily. I'm always a bit shocked when players know they'll be fighting Elves with bows, yet they place their important redirectors or valuable support units out in the open where they can be shot with no modifier besides long range. If those Sabertusks had hunkered down behind the Guts or Mournfangs, I may not have even been able to trace LoS to them, let alone hit them accurately. That would have been a strong advantage for preserving them, rather than letting the RBTs and Sisters chew them up.

[Stormie]

Loving the tactical advice here- it really is just second nature for me to plonk down redirector types on the front line, where they die so easily, when they could easily start the game behind stuff that can absorb the firepower more easily. Now I just gotta remember not to play on autopilot!

[Curu Olannon]

Loving the tactical advice here- it really is just second nature for me to plonk down redirector types on the front line, where they die so easily, when they could easily start the game behind stuff that can absorb the firepower more easily. Now I just gotta remember not to play on autopilot!

qft

[Ferny]

I've kept thinking of this then forgetting when I'm posting, but quick question:

What's your thinking behind single 12 (wo)man squad of sisters rather than 2x6? Better stand and shoot/H2H potential? Standing up to magic missiles?

Curious, because to my mind they're better in multiple squads (in theory) because then you could target a second HPA/Hydra if the first were killed off. Unlikely I know, but it gives you the option. Or the option to mow down more chaff units (lone sabretusks prime candidate). Or to use them as redirectors/chaff in extremis.

[Curu Olannon]

I've kept thinking of this then forgetting when I'm posting, but quick question:

What's your thinking behind single 12 (wo)man squad of sisters rather than 2x6? Better stand and shoot/H2H potential? Standing up to magic missiles?

Curious, because to my mind they're better in multiple squads (in theory) because then you could target a second HPA/Hydra if the first were killed off. Unlikely I know, but it gives you the option. Or the option to mow down more chaff units (lone sabretusks prime candidate). Or to use them as redirectors/chaff in extremis.

You can`t have more than two of the same rare unit, BRB rules.

[Ferny]

Did I miss something somewhere in the thread? I thought he only had a single unit of 12 currently which could therefore be legally split in two?

[Tethlis]

Okay, I think I'm getting a bit more polished in tackling WoC. All these different games and yet all the lists look surprisingly similar... Not exactly inspired in terms of list diversity.

-Nurgle Daemon Prince, Level 4, bells and whistles
-Tzeentch BSB on Disc
-Nurgle Sorcerer on Daemonic Steed
-18 Nurgle Warriors w/ musician, champion, halberds
-Nurgle Chariot
-Nurgle Chariot
-Nurgle Chariot
-5 Hounds w/ Vanguard
-5 Hounds w/ Vanguard
-5 Hounds w/ Vanguard
-Gorebeast Chariot
-Gorebeast Chariot
-Chimera w/ Regen, breath weapon
-Chimera w/ Regen, breath weapon


Deployment
This was a bit tricky since my opponent was packing a lot of drops, but I kept things conservative by keeping my blocks central, turtling a bit around the hill, and was fortunate that I kept my Maiden Guard until late so they could go down opposite my opponent's strong right flank. Two Chimeras are not my friend...

My opponent was packing Metal on a Level 2, Nurgle on the Daemon Prince, and overall it was a pretty potent spell lineup for my opponent. Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades, Miasma of Pestilence, Curse of the Leper, Rancid Visitations, Fleshy Abundance. I ended up with a pretty solid lineup myself... Iceshard Blizzard, Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Withering, Mindrazor. Pit of Shades would have been nice to be a dual-threat against the Chimeras, but oh well. Despite +1 for me, my opponent won first turn.



WoC Turn 1
I had a bit of Vanguarding, which was fortunate to help tie down the Hounds and prevent them Vanguarding into my face too badly. My opponent rushed everything up (surprise surprise) with him hiding a Chimera behind the building on the far right, with the Daemon Prince hunkering behind the other Chimera. Despite a 10/6 phase, my opponent didn't achieve much with magic. He wildly overestimated what would actually be susceptible to his magic missiles, and giving a unit Regeneration wasn't too effective with his MSU approach since it simply meant I could either pick another target to shoot at, or use the Sisters to bypass the save.



Asur Turn 1
This turn could basically be described as "fun with Reavers and shooting". My right-most Reavers sprinted behind enemy lines, in hopes of march blocking the hiding Chimera who was carelessly left out of Leadership range of the Daemon Prince. The middle Reavers (ER2) parked right in front of the Warhounds in a fairly awkward place for them, conveniently jamming the advance of a ton of Chaos units. On the left, the first unit of Reavers failed its Leadership test to march so I pulled them back to safety for use later on. With magic, my opponent failed his Dispel attempt on the Withering and I knocked the Chimera down to Toughness 2 . The Maiden Guard pulled the trigger and made it disappear. I would have liked to start going to work on the Daemon Prince, but the Altar blocked line of sight pretty effectively for my bolt throwers. Instead the bolt throwers aimed at the Level 2 caster who was painfully exposed, managing two wounds. Scattered bowfire panicked the left-most Hounds, in turn panicking the left-most Nurgle chariot and sending them running.



WoC Turn 2
The excellent Ellyrian Reavers really jammed things up for my opponent this turn... This was hugely significant for delaying him. The remaining Chimera behind the building was stuck to a 10 inch move by failing its test to March, which still kept it in my gunsights. Two chariots in the middle charged the Reavers, who promptly fled. The Chariots were pretty badly out of position, blocking in the Nurgle Warrior block and giving me some excellent counter-charge opportunities next turn. On the left, his Hounds (ironically) rallied while the Chariot fled the table. He scrambled some with his remaining hounds to try and bog down my right flank.

For Magic, my opponent 6-diced Searing Doom on the Silver Helms, scored Irresistible Force, scored 12 hits and nuked the entire unit. The caster then promptly lost his last wound and died. I was actually pretty okay with this, since it meant he never got a chance to use his scroll .



Asur Turn 2
This was a huge turn. I saw a great opportunity to get the Phoenix Guard and Frost Phoenix up the table, so declared a charge on the Gorebeast chariot in front of them. My opponent opted to hold, sacrificing the chariot so that he could engage me with the Nurgle Warriors and flanking chariot in his turn and maybe get some buffs/hexes off with his Daemon Prince. Unfortunately the Phoenix Guard couldn't manage average dice and failed, so I'd have to see how the Phoenix did on its own.

I had a decision to make here. Both the Chimera and Daemon Prince were in my sights. Both had a potential flank charge on the Phoenix Guard, to keep them tied up all game (though I doubted they would be able to kill them all) or else they could try and sneak past my shooting to rampage through my backline. I knew I probably wouldn't get another chance at the Daemon Prince, since once he got into combat any wounds I shot off him would just be Soulfed back to full. The Chimera would die easily, but was something of a lesser threat here.

After contemplating for a minute, I decided to tackle the Daemon Prince. I reshuffled my Reavers, hoping to jam up my opponent's charge lanes to stop them from hitting my Phoenix Guard before I could get in another magic phase of hexes/debuffs. A 6/1 phase, my opponent channeled one (argh) and promptly shut down Withering with a good roll. The Book of Hoeth really let me push for a strong roll, but my opponent beat me out with an IF. The rallied Reavers jogged over towards the Prince and shot some arrows, drawing out his Charmed Shield. I stepped up with the Reaver Bow/Potion of Strength BSB, scoring two hits, two wounds, and one snuck through the Ward Save. Not bad, but not ideal. I was really hoping for two wounds there. This put a lot of pressure on my remaining shooting to knock 3 wounds off that monster. The First bolt thrower fired... Scored a Hit... Successfully Wounded... And got stopped by the Ward Save. Son of a bitch. The second bolt thrower fired... Hit... Wounded... My opponent failed his Ward Save... And I rolled a 5 for my D3 Wounds. Effing score, and down goes the Daemon Prince! The Maiden Guard were relieved they didn't have to try and shamefully sneak damage past the Daemon Prince's 1+ Armor, 2+ Dragonbane Gem Ward (that would have been really desperate on my part) so gleefully shot two wounds off the Chimera who miraculously passed his Ld5 Panic test to not flee the table.

In combat, the Phoenix bashed the Gorebeast a little, took no wounds in return, sent it running, caught it, and smacked into the Nurgle Warrior block.



Woc Turn 3
My opponent knew he was in trouble, so started declaring charges. His banged-up Chimera took a risk charging the Maiden Guard, who sadly failed their Terror test instead of standing-and-shooting but managed to escape. Hounds went into the Reavers, the remaining Gorebeast went into the middle Reavers who fled easily, and the far left Nurgle Chariot (NC2) charged my left-most Reavers who also fled. He opted not to redirect, since he figured the White Lions would just murder a lone chariot charging them anyway. In the main even for this turn, the Phoenix ate a chariot in the flank.

With no magic and no shooting, this turn went quickly. The Reavers held off the Hounds just fine, the Phoenix smashed and squashed fully half the Nurgle Warriors (hey, this whole Thunderstomp thing is awesome, normally it's my army who is getting Thunderstomped ) and all the return attacks, plus an intimidating 7 Impact Hits, only managed one wound on him thanks to that insane durability and a 4+ Ward this turn. The Warriors held on Steadfast, the Chariot not so much.



Asur Turn 3
The White Lions charged the chariot in front of them, the Phoenix Guard charged the Hounds. The Chariot fled the Lions, heading for the table edge. Magic wasn't too notable this turn, but shooting was quite solid. The Archers/Reaver Bow BSB finished off the Chimera, while both bolt throwers shot down the chariot that had fled from Big Bird. In combat, the Phoenix Guard exploded their Hounds, while the Reavers killed off theirs and ran them down. The Gorebeast decided he'd had enough and Panicked from that as well (rough Leadership rolls for my opponent here, lots of Panic and failed Rallies). The Phoenix gleefully murdered the Nurgle Warriors down to just a few models, who couldn't scratch the bird in return and got run down for their troubles.



WoC Turn 4
In what was basically the last move available to my opponent, he tried a long charge at the 10-man Archers housing my BSB, my AM and my Level 2. That could at least been slightly redeeming if he'd gotten into combat with them, but he failed his charge and stumbled right into charge range of my Lions, while my stand-and-shoot couldn't scratch him. His Hounds and Core Chariot kept running, though his Gorebeast rallied.



Asur Turn 4
In this turn, I put the nails in the coffin. I used a Reaver unit to herd his chariot off the table, redirecting into the Hounds to herd them off as well. My White Lions smacked into the Chaos BSB, who I debuffed to hell with magic, and broke him. The Gorebeast ate a lot of firepower to the face and died a pincushioned death.



Conclusion
Wow, I'd say that went rather well. The funny thing here is that my major combat blocks did almost nothing of note. Almost all of the VP was gained from my support units, and I didn't even have any direct damage spells to help either. It was pretty much all shooting, with some gleeful stompy combat action from the Phoenix. This might also be the first game where all my redirectors survived also, much to my surprise.

Overall, I continue to be very pleased with the list. The Silver Helms never got a chance to distinguish themselves, but even if they had lived I'm not sure there's much they could have done over on the right flank. I'm glad my opponent found them so intimidating though. The Sisters continue their trend of being awesome in certain matchups, and I've really come to appreciate the value of bolt throwers when my dice actually choose to help me out a little bit. The Reaver Bow BSB was pleasantly surprising as well, and felt much more useful and functional than a guy lugging a great weapon around. The one turn of Strength 8 shooting is pretty fantastic when there's one target out there who absolutely needs to die. Overall, I love that this book has recovered two things that I always feel Elves should have: speed and shooting. Watching the Reavers run circles around the lumbering Chaos units was a great sensations and gave me phenomenal board control, and the firepower is very potent for such a minimal point investment.

[Coradon Lorelian]

Out of curiosity did the noble have any other gear besides reaver bow and potion of strength

[Teledor]

Great win. Loved that your Reavers survived, that has to be a sign of a good game. One of my favorite parts of the new book is the Reavers in Core. Eagles have great flexibility, but the flee/rally/flee ability of fast Cav is making me love them so much more as redirectors.

[Ptolemy]

The way you used the Reaver Bow is the EXACT reason I put it in my list. It gonna wound reliably against most anything. Thats hard to pass up. Glad to see your RBT finally came up for you!

[Lecai]

Hello Tethlis, great report as usual and congrats on the win! Your batreps are further strengthening my belief that the Frostheart Phoenix and the Sisters of Avelorn are just superb additions to our army book.

I was wondering something though... Your Reaver Bow BSB is placed in an Archers regiment and the new Reaver Bow has the "Multiple Shots x3" special rule now rather than flat out saying that it gets three shots. The "Multiple Shots" special rule in the BRB says that "All models in the unit must fire either single or Multiple Shots — the player cannot choose to fire single shots with some and Multiple Shots with others". In the batrep, your BSB shoots three Potion of Strength empowered S8 shots at the Daemon Prince while still being deployed with the Archers. Did the Archers also get to shoot their arrows or was it only the BSB shooting multiple shots in that turn? That sentence in the "Multiple Shots" rule description is obviously meant to prevent entire unit types with multi-shot weapons like the RxBowmen of the DE from mixing their single and multi shots within a single unit to prevent confusion and fasten up the game. I really want to try using a Handmaiden with the Reaver Bow in a unit of 14 or 19 Sisters and of course want to be able to shoot 3 QtF arrows with her along with the normal shots of the 'Sisters in her regiment. Am I allowed to do that or do I have to shoot single shots with the Reaver Bow wielding Handmaiden as long a she is in the Sister's unit?

[Tethlis]

Thanks for the commentary guys.

@Coradon Lorelian
I gave him a halberd and heavy armor to stay cheap and help fight off light stuff, but ultimately no he's staying pretty inexpensive. I may shuffle points to get Enchanted Shield, but ultimately throwing out some Strength 5 Attacks with re-rolls to Hit sounds better to me than trying to stay alive if any significant threat actually gets into combat there.

@Teledor
The win felt very smooth, and I continue my love affair with having Core Fast Cav. It's hard to believe I initially saw them as more expensive, less mobile Eagles when we first got our new book. This game did a lot to open my eyes to their abilities.

@Ptolemy
I'm definitely sold on the Reaver Bow/Potion of Strength. I'll be holding on to it.

@Lecai
Good question. I would be really surprised if anyone tried to claim that a character with a Multiple Shot weapon could only fire single shot, if the rest of his unit only had single shot weapons. Even interpreting it RAW, that ruling only seems to come into play when the entire unit has the option of firing single or multiple shots. If you've heard arguments to the contrary, I would love to see a link to their discussion and see what logic people have offered one way or another.