Tethlis' Army Blog, The Old World

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Tethlis
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: HE vs DE, updated 10/9

#421 Post by Tethlis »

I got in two games versus the new Dwarves today. I modified my existing list slightly, basically dropping the Frost Phoenix in an attempt to comp better in upcoming tournaments this year. Something along the lines of:

-Level 4, Book, Golden Crown, Lore of Shadow
-Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Heavens
-BSB with Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, heavy armor, crossbow
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Helms w/ musi, shields
-5 Helms w/ musi, shields
-10 Archers w/ musi, standard
-25 Phoenix Guard w/ full command, Razor Standard
-21 White Lions w/ full command, Banner of the World Dragon
-10 Sisters of Avelorn
-10 Sisters of Avelorn
-RBT
-RBT
-RBT

The first game, my opponent was packing:

-Dwarf Lord w/ great weapon, shieldbearers. 2+ armor, Toughness 8, 6 Wounds, Strength 4 breath weapon
-Thane BSB w/ 1+ armor, 3++ versus Strength 6 or higher
-Runesmith w/ Spellbreaking
-Runesmith w/ Spellbreaking
-40 Longbeards w/ fc, great weapons, Strollaz' Rune
-21 Hammerers w/ fc, Strollaz' Rune, Rune of Slowness
-Cannon w/ Forging, Burning
-Grudge Thrower w/ Forging, Accuracy, Penetrating
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard
-Gyrocopter
-Flame Cannon w/ Forging
-20 Irondrakes w/ fc, Strollaz

The second game:

-Dwarf Lord w/ two runes of Cleaving, Rune of Might, 1+, 3++ versus Strength 6, shieldbearers
-Thane BSB, two Runes of Slowness, Rune of Grimnir
-Runesmith w/ Spellbreaking
-Master Engineer
-40 Longbeards w/ fc, great weapons, Strollaz' Rune
-Cannon w/ Forging, Burning
-Grudge Thrower w/ Forging, Accuracy, Penetrating
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard
-Gyrocopter
-Organ Gun with Rune of Accuracy
-25 Irondrakes w/ fc, Strollaz

Another game tomorrow, with full reports in a day or two.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog versus new Dwarves, batreps WIP 2/16

#422 Post by Galdor »

Great! Looking forward to them, I like your reports.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog versus new Dwarves, batreps WIP 2/16

#423 Post by Ferny »

Liking the crossbow on your bsb ;). Looking forward to the reports. Vs dwarves it looks like a good move, but on the basis that it's a change to your all-comers list, I'll also be interested on how the switch from frosty to more shooting in rare works out for you.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog versus new Dwarves, batreps WIP 2/16

#424 Post by Taggra Foecarver »

Looking forward to these reports. :D
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: HE vs DE, updated 10/9

#425 Post by Tethlis »

Tethlis wrote: -Dwarf Lord w/ great weapon, shieldbearers. 2+ armor, Toughness 8, 6 Wounds, Strength 4 breath weapon
-Thane BSB w/ 1+ armor, 3++ versus Strength 6 or higher
-Runesmith w/ Spellbreaking
-Runesmith w/ Spellbreaking
-40 Longbeards w/ fc, great weapons, Strollaz' Rune
-21 Hammerers w/ fc, Strollaz' Rune, Rune of Slowness
-Cannon w/ Forging, Burning
-Grudge Thrower w/ Forging, Accuracy, Penetrating
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard
-Gyrocopter
-Flame Cannon w/ Forging
-20 Irondrakes w/ fc, Strollaz
In my first matchup, a simple battleline versus the above list. Granted it wasn't a particularly cutthroat build, but I wasn't expecting my opponent to nail Great Dwarf Internet Dwarf List in his first run. He seemed most excited about running a list where almost everything Vanguarded.

Deployment
My most important priority was to give my opponent some space. I knew that the new Organ Gun, Flame Cannon and Vanguarding Gyros could potentially do a lot of damage right away, so I kept my valuable blocks tucked back and let the cavalry offer themselves up on the 12 inch line. I didn't mind losing the Cav, and any Gyros that came cruising forward to steam them would get eaten by countercharges, without any huge likelihood of outright killing the unit they were shooting at. Not putting the Archmage in the Lions for Banner of the World Dragon was an error, since the danger of GrudgeThrower followed by Cannon Sniping can't be underestimated, but thankfully didn't come up. My other major consideration was getting my Reaver Bow in range of any of the destructive short range warmachines, as well as giving my RBTs and Sisters clear lanes of fire against Gyrocopters.

For magic, I rolled that unfortunate 1, 4, no doubles which meant I was stuck with either Pendulum or Steed, so I took Pendulum. I also had Withering and Pit, not too shabby. My Level 2 rolled up Harmonic Convergence and Comet, two great spells. I dumped Harmonic Convergence down to Iceshard, but in the end I should have ditched Comet since the Dwarves ended up starting so close to me that I never had a great time to use Comet.

It's worth noting that Vanguarding is very important here. High Elf players will want to be conscious of their Vanguard moves, either pushing Reavers up fast to keep Gyrocopters back (if that's your concern), as well as being wary of Dwarf units with Strollaz' looking to exploit a weak part of your lines. Two or more blocks with Strollaz, plus a hefty unit of rangers, could potentially see 4 Dwarf units within 12 inches of a High elf battle line before the game even begins.

Before Vanguard:
Image

After Vanguard:
Image

High Elf Turn 1
Getting first turn was a bit of luck. I popped Potion of Strength on my BSB, sent the Fast Cavalry dashing up the field, and shuffled my battle line. On the right, a Reaver unit made an aggressive push right next to the Flame Cannon, close enough that any shot from the Cannon would likely overshoot the Reavers. I figured he would have to try and use a Gyro to steam them, taking pressure off my own lines, and letting my follow up with a unit of Helms as a second wave. On the left, I pushed a Reaver unit up aggressively to try and draw Irondrake Fire.

In magic, a 3-dice Withering at the nearest Gyrocopter saw my Archmage eat a Dimensional Cascade and die, taking half a Sister unit with her. Wan wan.

Shooting was fantastic though, with my firepower combining to kill the closest Gyro plus the Flame Cannon.

Image

Dwarf Turn 1
The Vanguarding Dwarf blocks shuffled forward, which was key for me because I wanted the Hammerers leaving the safety of the obstacle they were hunkered behind. I had no doubt the Phoenix Guard could take them on, but I didn't want to have to contend with -1 to hit and didn't want to risk a follow-up flank charge from the Longbeards.

For shooting, the Irondrakes had little choice but to blast away at the Reavers. Their pretty meagre BS3 really hurts for them... They scored a few hits, did a couple kills, and the Reavers panicked and dashed for the table edge. On the right side, the Gyro flamed the Reavers as expected, the cannon dropped a bolt thrower and the Grudge Thrower found out where Banner of the World Dragon was :D

Image

High Elf Turn 2
A bit of an anti-climax this turn: the Phoenix Guard failed their 12-inch charge on the Hammerers, and the Reavers went into the Grudge Thrower to keep it busy. The fleeing Reavers made their rally, abount-facing to eat more firepower from the Irondrakes. I planted a Reaver unit in front of the Longbeards, to buy me the time I knew I'd need for the Phoenix Guard to get through the Hammerers. My other units shuffled backwards, keeping the Hammerers at a distance and preventing them from making a long charge to break out. Shooting kept the pressure up, downing another 'copter. The Reavers fighting Grudge Thrower couldn't manage much versus Toughness 4.

Image

Dwarf Turn 2
Nothing out of the ordinary here, with the Longbeards charging the offered Reavers and eating them up to reform. The Irondrakes finished off their Reaver unit (85 points typing up 300+ points of ranged for two turns, not bad!) and the Fast Cav fighting the Grudgethrower finally managed a bit of damage. The Gyrocopter tried to slow down my follow-up Silverhelms but couldn't manage much.

Image

High Elf turn 3
Alright, the Phoenix Guard finally got to where they needed to be against the Hammerers. I didn't bother much with magic this turn, not wanting to risk the miscast and not wanting to drop Comet since our lines were pretty jumbled at this point. I lit up the Longbeards with my bows, doing some good damage while shuffling my units to avoid giving him an easy charges except the bolt thrower. The Phoenix Guard would need a few rounds of combat to work through the Hammerers, and I didn't feel great tackling the Longbeards + 2 Characters without having them in the mix.

Combat, the Phoenix Guard did their thing by hacking up half a dozen Dwarves while barely taking any damage in reply. The Reavers even managed to drop the Grudge Thrower.

Image

Dwarf Turn 3
The Longbeards took down my bolt thrower, the only unit within manageable charge range, while the Gyrocopter steamed up to hopefully reach my backline. The Irondrakes continued their Quick Reform + Shuffle dance, looking for more Elves to hose down with their inaccurate overkill flamethrowers. If someone ever teaches those hairy little f*ckers how to point a gun, we could be a in serious trouble, but until then it's almost laughable how many of their shots miss their mark. The cannon followed suit by going for a pretty unspectacular grapeshot blast, without much effect. For combat, my Bolt Thrower crew started off combat by putting two Wounds on his Lord...

No, not really. They both died, and the Dwarves reformed to face the Lions. I noticed that my opponent deliberately gave the Silverhelms the flank, which meant he was probably pretty confident about his ability to hold.

Image

High Elf Turn 4
A fairly dramatic turn, lots of charging, but nothing really conclusive. I wasn't feeling great about the Lions versus Longbeards, but BotWD would hold their characters off just fine. I pitched the Silverhelms in for good measure too, which I knew would give the Lord something to swing at, but I was more interested in potentially killing off a few Strength 6 hits coming at the Lions. The helms also plowed into the cannon, running it over just in time to get blown away by Irondrakes next turn...

For magic, a low dice phase saw me hurl dice at Iceshard which drew a scroll. My shooting phase blasted down the last Gyrocopter (yaaaaaaay, it's nice having a real shooting phase!)

In combat, the Phoenix Guard kept gleefully hacking down Hammerers, with my opponent giving me a couple "hey wait, I thought Hammerers were supposed to be overpowered"-type looks. The Lions and Helms did a solid number on the Longbeards, with all 4 Helms hitting, wounding and killing with their attacks, while the Lord swung poorly, but the Longbeards ate a healthy number of Elves in return and I knew this combat would be a losing proposition if I couldn't get the Phoenix Guard over there fast.

Image

Dwarf Turn 4
The Irondrakes reformed and shot some cavalry (you were surprised, I know... I was surprised too.) The Phoenix Guard finished off the Hammerers, leaving only the BSB who decided he wanted to be a pain in the ass by sticking around. The Dwarf Lord decided to wake up this turn (getting carried around by minions is apparently exhausting?) and brutalized the Silver Helms this turn. The Lions didn't roll as hot as I would like, continuing to lose traction against the Longbeards who were dragging them down with weight of hairy numbers.

Image

High Elf Turn 5
Things were getting down to the wire here. I managed to get off Iceshard, it was scrolled, but the Phoenix Guard actually managed to hack up the BSB (very impressive, he was packing the 2+/3++ versus Strength 6, so Strength 4 Armor Piercing was quite ideal for slipping damage through.) The Lions were barely managing to hold on. My ever-impressive banged some damage off the Irondrakes, but their 2++ versus Flaming meant the Sisters weren't going to be contributing much.

Image

Dwarf Turn 5
The Irondrakes continued the 360 break dance tour of their Deployment Zone, having spun in more than few circles now in order to shoot things with their enormous guns. Meanwhile, the Lonbeards finally finished my White Lions, just in time to eat a charge in the face from Phoenix Guard...

Image

High Elf Turn 6
...Aaaaand, Phoenix Guard charge in the face. The Reavers came along for good measure too, just to help make sure I ran down any survivors, but they ended up not reaching with their charge. The Longbeards didn't like the Phoenix Guard much, especially since Phoenix Guard killed just enough to win the combat, break the unit, but left one Longbeard alive, ensuring the unit was below 25% and set to flee off the table. My firepower kept banging away at the Irondrakes, but I didn't think I would be getting points for them this game.

Image

Dwarf Turn 6
Away went the Lord (or I should say, the sorry bastards who have to haul his corpulent armored form around), away went his lone Longbeard friend with plenty of sh*t to grumble about, while the Irondrakes kept blazing away at T3, mostly naked Sisters without scoring enough hits to finish them off.

Image

Result
I had lost:

-Level 4, Book, Golden Crown, Lore of Shadow (sucked into the Warp)
-5 Reavers w/ bows (flamethrowered)
-5 Reavers w/ bows (flamethrowered)
-5 Helms w/ musi, shields (flamethrowered)
-5 Helms w/ musi, shields (Lord'ed)
-21 White Lions w/ full command, Banner of the World Dragon (Longbearded)
-RBT (cannoned)

He had lost:

-Dwarf Lord w/ great weapon, shieldbearers. 2+ armor, Toughness 8, 6 Wounds, Strength 4 breath weapon (routed off the table)
-Thane BSB w/ 1+ armor, 3++ versus Strength 6 or higher (eaten by Phoenix Guard)
-Runesmith w/ Spellbreaking (routed off the table)
-40 Longbeards w/ fc, great weapons, Strollaz' Rune (routed off the table)
-21 Hammerers w/ fc, Strollaz' Rune, Rune of Slowness (eaten by Phoenix Guard)
-Cannon w/ Forging, Burning (run over by Silverhelms)
-Grudge Thrower w/ Forging, Accuracy, Penetrating (gradually kicked to death by Reavers)
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard (shot down)
-Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard (shot down)
-Gyrocopter (shot downnnnnn)
-Flame Cannon w/ Forging (arrer'd!)

I had this one in the bag.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#426 Post by Galdor »

Nice report. Did you miss the Frostheart?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#427 Post by RE.Lee »

Thanks for the report and congrats on the win. The Dwarves actually look like a combat army here! Slow but advancing relentlessly supported by heavy artillery - I like it! Things might change as the optimal builds are created but I remain optimistic.
cheers, Lee

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#428 Post by Ferny »

Thanks for the report. I think your deployment here was good, keeping out of range of all the templates bar GT, and without the phoenix you don't present any excellent targets for the cannon. Also, well played/fortunate/poorly deployed dwarfs to match the hammerers against PG rather than lions.

Minor thing, but I wonder whether he might have guessed your lions had the BotWD and GTed your PG? After all, why would your WL not have the banner in a list like this? While they could conceivably take something else it's almost as good a bet as a dwarf war machine having the rune of forging. 2++ to a 4++ is still a good ward, but he might have killed some more there, softening them up before combat and possibly forcing you off your comfortable back-line?

However, my biggest concern with this game (without wanting to diminish your win or insult your opponent) is that, given how it played out, he made it far too easy for you to get his war machines. There was no infantry defending them or blocking charge lines to them: no xbows, no warriors, no slayers, nothing (except a piddly gyro, which did it's steam thang, but isn't blocking infantry). Had his back-line been better defended against your cavalry I don't think you should have been able to mop up his war machines so readily, saving him their points or at least allowing them to continue firing for more turns.

Looking forward to the next report (and hopefully a harder game!). Anyways, nice win, especially vs the Dawi =D>
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#429 Post by Jimmy »

Hey Tethlis

Thanks for sharing the report, I’ve been wanting to check out the new Dwarfs in action. Congratulations on the victory, was looking hairy there for a minute with those longbeards on the rampage.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#430 Post by Tethlis »

Thanks for reading, all.

@Galdor
I didn't particularly miss the Frostheart in this matchup. It would have been useful to help slow down the Longbeards, and perhaps its attacks and Thunderstomping would have allowed the Lions to outpace the Longbeards in terms of kills. That being said, the extra unit of Sisters plus the bolt thrower were critical in the opening turns so I really can't complain about that. Being able to contain the Gyros was a big deal.

@RE.Lee
Agreed, it's nice seeing Dwarves want to march over the table's midline. I think it's going to be a challenge, finding the right balance of aggression versus holding back to protect the machines and allow shooting to do it's work. It's great to see the variety though.

@Ferny
I had mentioned to my opponent that I was tweaking the list to comp a bit better, and I think he may have thought I meant dropping BotWD as well. When he placed the grudgethrower shot and I revealed it, I offered to let him drop it on another target instead. I didn't want him to think I was messing with his head too much, but like a gentleman he opted to stick with his original choice of targets and play it out. I also agree that finding the right balance of aggression versus shooting is going to be important for Dwarves that want to make use of a Vanguarding army. Having tried my hand at building a few Dwarf lists myself, I have to say that they start getting very strapped for points. With pretty much everything in the list ending up ~14 points per model except for the ultra cheap hand weapon + shield Dwarves, the number of bodies is a bit limited. Perhaps a more central deployment option for the Irondrakes would have helped them shield the machines effectively. I expect a lot of players will tend to take a more conventional castle approach when faced with a lot of cavalry or other quick armies capable of hunting machines.

@Jimmy
Thanks, the Longbeards can roll over things very easily. I forgot to mention it in the report, but my opponent only rolled a "2" in this game so didn't gain Hatred for his army. In the next matchup though, they did indeed gain Hatred...
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#431 Post by Targ Ironfist »

Hi Mr.Tethlis,

I am not sure what Your dawi opponent thought when deploying and moving like this.

If one brings artillery, he has to protect it, as it is pretty expencive now. So with this amount of artillery he has no chance, but castle.

You have taught him a typical elgi lesson - leave Your arty alone and I shall kill it.

For me, Irondrakes are especialy impressive as they finaly offer the move and fire weapon, that is quite great against most enemies (BS3 makes them simply balanced). Since You had no DPs, they were his troops to win him the fight OR to block Your cavalry advance in a much better way.

I would have done the following: (Under the condition I want to have a fun game and not to castle, of course)
LBs and hammers to the right -table edge being their protection against the flanking manouvres.
Irondrakes placing themselves left of the tower - prepared to counter Your cavalry moves.
Gyros should have been using the tower as cover. One maybe left to counter cav on the left.

Lord and hammers in the tower would have been able to reinforce where needed and he could have nicely blasted away at You.
Hammers would withstand any of Your units attack on the tower and then two gyro templates would have been there to punish even Your phoenix guard for it.
Your Asuryan blokes are tough, but not that tough. :wink:

Well done, Mr.Elgi!
Should You wish to play on UB, I would give You a much tougher dance. :mrgreen:

How did Your enemy´s arty work? Did the cannon hit something?

Side remark: I think that with seriously nerfed anti-magic of our super resistant dawi, there is a solid chance to hurt the dawi castle with the Comet, in example. What do You think?
Or theoreticaly if You could comment on how the new anti magic felt to play against. Thanks in advance.

Thanks for the report once more.

With regards
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#432 Post by Ferny »

Tethlis wrote: @Ferny
I had mentioned to my opponent that I was tweaking the list to comp a bit better, and I think he may have thought I meant dropping BotWD as well. When he placed the grudgethrower shot and I revealed it, I offered to let him drop it on another target instead. I didn't want him to think I was messing with his head too much, but like a gentleman he opted to stick with his original choice of targets and play it out. I also agree that finding the right balance of aggression versus shooting is going to be important for Dwarves that want to make use of a Vanguarding army. Having tried my hand at building a few Dwarf lists myself, I have to say that they start getting very strapped for points. With pretty much everything in the list ending up ~14 points per model except for the ultra cheap hand weapon + shield Dwarves, the number of bodies is a bit limited. Perhaps a more central deployment option for the Irondrakes would have helped them shield the machines effectively. I expect a lot of players will tend to take a more conventional castle approach when faced with a lot of cavalry or other quick armies capable of hunting machines.
Between your comments here and Targ's I think we'll either see a default to castle or a heavy commitment to moving forward, and in the latter case, significantly reduced non-gyro war machine presence. Of the two I'm very much looking forward to trying my hand against the second, and my views on the first remain as pre-new book. :)

Nice to know how the BotWD artillery shot came about - jedi mind tricks :wink: .

And finally, yeah, I'm starting to see (on the few lists I've seen) a pattern towards few large infantry blocks which, when added to characters and machines, really doesn't leave much in the way of war machine guards. Unless this changes or they castle I think this is the chink in their gromril armour.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#433 Post by Stormie »

Good fight, and great win considering the harsh first turn for you!

This is the second proper Dwarf battle report I've read now, each of them with 3 Gyrocoptors and neither of them really achieving that much, maybe one good shot per game. I find this amazing- whenever I played against Dwarfs in the old days, killing a single Gyrocoptor was a nightmare, thanks to high toughness, armour and wounds. But they seem to be dropping like flies in these battle reports! I know we tend to have better shooting than in the old days when I fought Dwarfs quite regularly, but have they actually got easier to kill this edition, I wonder?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#434 Post by RE.Lee »

I guess everybody is prepared to take down tough single models these days, and, as tough single models go, the Gyrocopter is not the most durable. Still, at the points value - it has to be considered chaff with quite decent firepower, I think.
cheers, Lee

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#435 Post by Targ Ironfist »

Ferny wrote:
Between your comments here and Targ's I think we'll either see a default to castle or a heavy commitment to moving forward, and in the latter case, significantly reduced non-gyro war machine presence. Of the two I'm very much looking forward to trying my hand against the second, and my views on the first remain as pre-new book. :)
I think you are right. Those will be two major options- I would like to pursue the moving throng with few/zero artilery and then a combined throng, which can move if approapriate, but does not have to.
Some fun could be gotten from a miner/gyro list, but I do not predict it beeing too strong. But funny nonetheless. :mrgreen:

Gyros: Reaver bow is their doom. Sisters do also a lot. S4 is already wounding them on 5+ and modifyer to AS. That helps a lot.
I learned to respect these ladies. :mrgreen:

Tethlis: Looking forward to the other battle.

With regards
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: HE vs DE, updated 10/9

#436 Post by Curu Olannon »

Interesting clashes vs Dwarfs, Tethlis! I had my first game against them yesterday. I really like the way their new book plays, so much more dynamic than their old which makes for way more interesting games for all sides :) In your report, it seems you had pretty good control all along, but I`m very curious as to why your opponent didn`t vanguard his Irondrakes and try and get them in a central position? With them blasting away at the Lions, things could`ve looked a lot more grim for you I believe.

Also, a question on his list, this particular part:
Tethlis wrote: -Dwarf Lord w/ great weapon, shieldbearers. 2+ armor, Toughness 8, 6 Wounds, Strength 4 breath weapon
How on earth do you manage T8, W6? This seems a huge misinterpretation of the rules, as far as I can tell: The only runes manipulating W and T are the Runes of Fortitude and Iron. The only theoretical way to get T8, W8 would be to take triple of both, but they have specific triple meanings both of them (i.e. they don`t scale linearly), not to mention that this would be above the Lord's magic points allowance and you would have broken the max 3 rule. The best I can do is rune of fortitude and 2x rune of iron, which yields T7, W4 - still a long way from T8, W6. This clocks in at 80 points so still 45 points to play around with, but no more slots for armour runes and I don't see anything else affecting T and W. Of course he could opt for T10, W3, but this is different entirely. I'm curious to see how a Lord can supposedly get T8, W6. Not only does it seem very illegal, it appears to be a very broken combo as well (you`ve also listed him as having the breath weapon in addition, which would allow him to choose the rune of might instead. This combo would seriously break anything and everything in the warhammer fighting universe, nothing can compete with a S8 T8 W6 2+ save character).

Lastly, I'd like to note that I'm trying lists that appear to become more and more similar to what you're running, so if you'd like to check out my most recent list musings I'd be happy to hear your take on it :)
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#437 Post by Tethlis »

Good to hear from you, Curu.

Regarding the Dwarf Lord, I likely misunderstood my opponent. I've played half a dozen games now against the new Dwarves, plus 3 or 4 games using the new Dwarves, so I've had plenty of time to process the book and I agree that Runic Combination would have been impossible. I suspect it was Shieldbearers + 2x Iron + 1x Fortitude, for Toughness 7 and 6 Wounds.

Interesting to note, I'm pleased with the list I was running. This new book really reward Dwarf players who can get the charge into a vulnerable flank with great weapons, and I think Ironbreakers with RoStoicism for Stubborn is a great way to do that. Against anything that's Strength 5 or less, their survivability is greater than Phoenix Guard, so you can shove them out in front and basically force an opponent to charge them or else risk being charged and bogged down all game by them. This makes it pretty easy for a small supporting Hammerer Block or Core Quarellers/Warriors to charge in on the flank with Strength 6+. 3x Gyros, 2x Organ Guns, and you get great anti-horde, great board control, and potent tools versus elite infantry and Monstrous Cavalry.

I'll head on over to your thread and take a look at your list.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#438 Post by Curu Olannon »

I didn't notice until now that Shieldbearers provide +2W, that kind of evens it. Though not T8, T7 W6 is still very hard to take down. In light of the Shieldbearers though, I wonder if not simply going T10 with Rune of Might for offense is best: you can't really argue with S8 (10 on the charge!), T10, W5!

As for your list, I'm having a hard time finding the exact configuration you're using in every game, would you mind writing it down for each report? :) I find it makes it a lot easier with regards to evaluating specifics.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#439 Post by Tethlis »

Sure thing. The list I used for the Dwarf report is at the top of this page:
-Level 4, Book, Golden Crown, Lore of Shadow
-Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Heavens
-BSB with Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, heavy armor, crossbow
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Reavers w/ bows
-5 Helms w/ musi, shields
-5 Helms w/ musi, shields
-10 Archers w/ musi, standard
-25 Phoenix Guard w/ full command, Razor Standard
-21 White Lions w/ full command, Banner of the World Dragon
-10 Sisters of Avelorn
-10 Sisters of Avelorn
-RBT
-RBT
-RBT
It's similar to the list I've been using for the last 8 or 9 months, except that I had less shooting and a Frost Phoenix instead. I dropped the Frosty back in December, realizing he wasn't doing a lot for me and some opponents could drop him very quickly, an I've been really pleased with the boosted shooting phase.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#440 Post by John Rainbow »

Tethlis wrote:I dropped the Frosty back in December, realizing he wasn't doing a lot for me and some opponents could drop him very quickly, an I've been really pleased with the boosted shooting phase.
Ditto on this. It's a great unit but not very all-comers.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#441 Post by Ferny »

Me three for leaving frosty behind this time.

Have you tried running with less shooting in this basic set-up Tethlis? If so, how did it go and how did you find it affected your army's playstyle?

I'm gearing up for my second and third tourneys (yay :mrgreen: ) and will probably take a variant on this tried and tested list, but at 2,400 and with a long-standing dislike of RBTs. Essentially I run the same list as you but with flaming DPs instead of RBTs (or rather, instead of Frosty, seen as I never had RBTs, but against your list it's the RBTs), smaller sisters, no archers, spear-only reavers and an undecided but currently High lore on the AM.

In full, compared to yours, my current list has:
basically the same core set-up minus archers (which I feel I'll only miss as a BSB/AM bunker)
sisters at 2x5 rather than 2x10 (which is enough to kill chaff, threaten manglers, put the odd wound on chimera, trolls, crypt horrors etc (even if I won't finish them off with shooting) - it's all I really need them for I think)
5-man flaming starprince unit instead of your RBTs (I'm not sold on these yet, might lose the starlance and re-invest elsewhere)
24 each of WL and PG (could drop either unit in size slightly, but I like 24 as a framework to work from)
Characters same, but ring of fury on Lv4 and MR1 on Lv1 (in theory for the PGs)

...and given the lack of shooting in my list I went with High over Shadow for the Lv4, on the basis that my list doesn't really need more strength so I'm confident vs empire steel wall without magic, but more WS vs nurgle is good, spammable boostable magic missile or flames are good vs hordes (and elves) and the rest are a decent utility set, backed up nicely by iceshard and shield of saphery. If I stick with High I might be tempted to squeeze in a 6++ ward save somehow. TBH, I don't think this core list revolves around magic so I view it as magic defense plus bonus spells - I've actually found lore selection for the Lv4 quite challenging as none really stands out.

I obviously have less ranged presence, but I see the dragon princes as being an alternative solution to what RBTs and sisters bring to the table. When comparing these lists (bearing in mind 2,400), are there any armies you think I might struggle against more than yours? I'm thinking spammy undead, dark elves (and maybe wood elves) are the down-sides? In writing this I'm not sure what it might be stronger against so I might try out replacing DPs with 3xRBT, I just have a gut feeling that I don't use them well and prefer a DP playstyle.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#442 Post by Tethlis »

I think a similar setup without as much shooting could be functional. I know this list can toe the line in combat, but it also relies a lot on shooting to help control the table and make sure the two blocks can get where they want to be. Similarly, there are certain things that just can't be fought in close combat, either because they're too tough or because you'll never catch them. I had another 2500 point game versus Dwarves last weekend, and I had Gyrocopters all over me from the very start of the game. Vanguarding Gyros plus small Ranger units to help contain our own Vanguarding units is a potent combination. Even with the good durability of High Elf units, those steam guns would have been lethal if I didn't have the firepower needed to down those Gyros pretty reliably. Without shooting, I would have been in big trouble.

That being said, the units you're talking about getting can also help there. A unit of Dragon Princes trailing along behind your blocks can chase away chaff or flankers and keep your flanks clear. Reavers with spears can get the job done too. So overall, just from a speculative standpoint, I think it could do just fine.

How would you handle a Daemon Prince, out of curiosity?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#443 Post by Curu Olannon »

I second your sentiments re: the importance of shooting Tethlis. I believe we either have to have the shooting to dominate the board, or the units to pick our fights (ie M9 and flyers). This also explains in a different way why frostie could indeed be a bad pick here - although the model itself is good value, it is expensive and does not provide the kind of board control we need. It cannot contain neither daemon princes nor gyrocopters, for example. One last question: why did you end up with Shadow? I would view Heavens, High, Death and the loremaster as serious contendors
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#444 Post by John Rainbow »

I agree with your thoughts about the magic lore Curu but in reality, with this much firepower Shadow (and in particular, Withering) is difficult to pass up. I don't think the bonuses from High (+1 ward) are really taken advantage of in this list and other than walk Between Worlds which could be very powerful on such a combat black as Tethlis has, it doesn't really fit in the same way. Heavens is potentially powerful due to the bubble rerolls but Shadow is probably better at protecting the infantry once they get to CC and in controlling the opposing phase with all the RiP spells - I'd rather have the strength debuff and withering rather than iceshard as they potentially affect a lot more than just hitting stuff.

The Loremaster is potentially an interesting choice and one that I have been thinking about a lot but again, I think he still plays second fiddle to Shadow and the combos with all the shooting and CC debuffs.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#445 Post by Tethlis »

It's funny Curu, you actually read my mind because I've been considering the magic lore also.

John Rainbow's 100% correct that Shadow does a lot for this list. Everything he said about the spells is dead-on. Miasma is generally useful, can slow a dangerous unit down to provide more turns of shooting, and is especially good for reducing the BS of other units (mostly Elves, Leadbelchers, Organ Guns) that want to shoot back. Withering and Pit of Shades also form two must-stop spells for the ranged game, spells that opponents absolutely do not want to be cast.

That being said, based on how comp works here at most events in the Western United States, I'm likely to get docked pretty hard because people dislike Shadow when paired with Elves. High is tempting, but I feel like I would need a proper combat character in the mix to really keep the Archmage safer and give a block like the Phoenix Guard more killing power, and the points for that don't work without seriously altering the list. I like the list as is, so will probably start experimenting with some different lore configurations (perhaps even give the Loremaster a whirl) and see how the changes impact the setup as whole.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#446 Post by Curu Olannon »

I know you cannot argue against Withering and Pit when it comes to offensive capabilities, but they`re both hugely expensive which means frequent miscasts and easy to counter. Also, there`s only ever typically one spell your opponent has to stop. Your list doesn't really benefit from Winrazor, and pendulum + aspect are useless. Basically Shadow leaves you with Miasma as the only utility spell, the rest you really have to commit to in order to get a result. In my experience, this is a bad thing as it's easy to defend against perfectly and you suffer lots of miscasts.

Now let's take a look at High. It's arguably not the best fit as you don't have a fighting character, so the attribute is semi-wasted, at least. The Lore has a healing spell (largely irrelevant for your list), Tempest which is useless, the rest however are quite nice: Hand of Glory gives a shooting boost for small cost, and guarantees 3+ to hit once you're in combat. Drain is super-nice against other strong buff/debuff-lores, the magic missiles augments your ranged presence, arcane unforging can be really handy and Fiery Convocation is no less powerful than Pit/Withering - it depends on the target of course but against Elves of all types, Trolls, Nurgle Warriors, Empire Hordes etc it completely changes the game: leave it on and the unit goes from depleted => non-existant, dispel it and lose a magic phase.

However the real case here I believe is Heavens (assuming the Loremaster is out, for now). Heavens has so many nice utility spells it's ridiculous. Iceshard Blizzard is insane, Harmonic Convergence is really good with shooting and Curse of the Midnight Wind is a very strong close combat debuff. Together, these form a solid range of combat buffs that are also useful at range, and cheap to cast: perfect synergy with BoH. Add to this, the Lore provides perhaps the best board control spell of them all in the shape of Comet, and a couple of really good damage spells in Chain Lightning and Thunderbolt. The only poor spell is wind blast, which is actually not entirely useless (D6+2" is quite a bit for some armies, I'm looking at you vanguarding Irondrakes!).

Of course there's the Loremaster as well, which I personally believe is a very strong pick in this sort of army, but really it boils down to the same as for Heavens: multiple redundant utility spells for all phases of the game and strong, damage-dealing spells which augment an already impressive shooting phase.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#447 Post by Ferny »

Tethlis wrote:I think a similar setup without as much shooting could be functional. I know this list can toe the line in combat, but it also relies a lot on shooting to help control the table and make sure the two blocks can get where they want to be. Similarly, there are certain things that just can't be fought in close combat, either because they're too tough or because you'll never catch them. I had another 2500 point game versus Dwarves last weekend, and I had Gyrocopters all over me from the very start of the game. Vanguarding Gyros plus small Ranger units to help contain our own Vanguarding units is a potent combination. Even with the good durability of High Elf units, those steam guns would have been lethal if I didn't have the firepower needed to down those Gyros pretty reliably. Without shooting, I would have been in big trouble.

That being said, the units you're talking about getting can also help there. A unit of Dragon Princes trailing along behind your blocks can chase away chaff or flankers and keep your flanks clear. Reavers with spears can get the job done too. So overall, just from a speculative standpoint, I think it could do just fine.

How would you handle a Daemon Prince, out of curiosity?
Cheers for the feedback.

Daemon Prince is a bitch whichever way you cut it: say you've got 4 RBTs at -1 to hit (range/cover) you'd expect 2 hits, 1 wounding, possibly warding, possibly D3W...or with multi-shot: 12 hits, 4W, maybe one through armour and then ward...they're tough cookies. 2++ vs fire means no sisters. Reaver/PoS gives probably 2 hits, 2 wounds and 1 past ward? And that's assuming you're not shooting chimeras. I know players are meant to be cautious about their DPs taking wounds, but I don't think I would be and my opponent certainly isn't, and they only need one turn of direct fire before they can be dictating which combats to be in with their fly movement.

In principle I try to deploy/manoeuvre so as to be able to not let him in behind my lines and to be able to counter-charge, but in practice I don't have a strong counter. I know you've had plenty of success against them mind.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#448 Post by Tethlis »

@Curu
Shadow typically doesn't require more than 3 or 4 dice per spell, as long as you're not going for Mindrazor. If you do see double 6s, Banner of the World Dragon can take the edge off. This is especially true in the opening turns, where you can keep the AM with the Lions and then duck her out before combat begins. With those cast values, Book goes a long way there, compared to (for example) Dark Elves who feel both the high cast values and the bite of miscasts even more.

@Ferny
All true regarding the Daemon Prince, but remember that the story doesn't end just because he's declaring a charge. If he charges any of your support units... Flee the charge, even if it means the Prince overruns. Losing a small support unit is a small price to pay when it means that the Prince doesn't get to regain wounds via Soulfeeder, and also means he's caught out in the open for another shooting phase (probably at short range too.) I've caught WoC players plenty of times this way... Opt to flee, and flee again if the Prince redirects, and let your unit be run down. Chances are whatever you lost cost a lot less than the Daemon Prince, who will be stuck eating another round of Elven shooting. If he charges my Lions or Phoenix Guard, it's not bad either. I can just hold and rest assured that neither of those units are going anywhere in a hurry, thanks to their Ward Saves.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#449 Post by Velmates »

Hey, Tethlis!

Since I can't play that often I have not the experience to follow all changes in your list since the introduction of our 8th edition book. Maybe you can help with shedding a bit of light on some questions.

Actually I liked your list with 2 RBTs, the Frosty and 10 sisters very much and tried this rare setup for myself. I could understand why you hated the RBTs because they feel very underwhelming even with the multi shot. During the last year, you changed your mind from never use them again over 2 to now 3. What did they do suddenly? I can't really make my 2 work properly and was considering dropping them for a 2nd unit of sisters next to the Phoenix.
Was it that you felt the need for a stronger shooting phase that you dropped the Phoenix (which I like very much I have to admit) or was the Phoenix really performing so badly that you considered replacing him with something else? Short: why the sudden love for RBTs and the dislike for the Phoenix?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, updated batrep vs New Dwarves 2/17

#450 Post by Curu Olannon »

Velmates, my personal opinion is that a 5W monster as strong as the phoenix will do nothing but attract every war machine in the game to shoot it. This is a problem because in this type of army you simply don`t have other good targets for e.g. cannons. Thus, against Empire, Ogres and Daemons for example the Phoenix becomes more of a liability than an asset - as these are all hard matchups for High Elves it`s hard to justify its inclusion, then. Also, RBT help with board control which is essential to High Elves: even though they might not be the strongest WMs around, they make things like Daemon Princes respect open fields.

Of course this is a very black/white view and there are loads of things you can do to mitigate the problems presented here (mainly terrain-usage), but in a nutshell this is why I believe the Phoenix is a poor fit for a list like Tethlis`.
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