Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

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rusty
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1321 Post by rusty »

This "guess next turn" is fun =D>

Dragon into letters is an obvios trap. I guess the dragon+BSB will take out horrors and either overrun or pivot, depending on how far away the Bloodthirster is. You should be able to keep the thirster out of combat for another turn, by fleeing with spears and manouvering with the flyers.

The archers I expect to reform and try to kill one chaff unit. BTW, What is that 50 mm base behind the archers?

Lions+chariot will move into the teeth of the bloodletters while the flyers prepare for a rear charge, and it all degenerates into one big brawl in the middle, which the daemons loose.

3:1 on HE. Sorry Dark Reaper :wink:
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1322 Post by Curu Olannon »

@rusty - I wouldn't say trap because there's no reason for me to even remotely try and engage them like that. The 50mm base I believe is a Fiend, unless I misunderstand which one you're talking about.

Next couple of steps:

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Saerith had vision to the Horrors and I intended to make the most of it: they're 17" away but even a failed charge doesn't guarantee his Letters reaching me. I barely make the roll while Naenor moves to the centre to help the fleeing chariot. Archers reform, however I'm speechless as the Lion Chariot fails its re-rollable leadership test and keeps running!

Magic is 3v2 and I cast Thunderbolt on the Screamers, which can easily charge the Chariot to force a flee off the table. He chooses not to scroll, however I only manage to kill off 2 of the 3 monsters. My Archers feel that they need to prioritize handling the Fiends, which are a bigger threat to the mages, and kill one, leaving a lone screamer (which is more than enough), unfortunately.

Combat sees Saerith kill the Horrors and reform to face the Letters.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 4 ::

Bloodthirster charges the Spears, I flee and get away. The Screamer charges chariot off the table and it runs off as well, safe from my magic until next turn. The other unit of Screamers take a position next to the obstacle close to the Archers and the last Fiend moves up. His Furies move to intercept my Lions.

Magic is 7v7 and 5D6 cage is dispelled on 5D6 (he had a low roll) and I dispel Fireball on 2v2 D6.

Image

So basically his Thirster is in the middle of no-where for another turn and at this point I'm hoping I can keep him away from important stuff for the rest of the game. If I can save the mages + big Archers as well as kill off the big Letters, the game should be mine. Kind of an awkward start with all those Archers fleeing off so early, missed LD-checks certainly not helping me with the Chariot either. Regardless, I'm in a decent position and have a good shot at getting a nice result.

Thoughts and comment for the last part of the game very welcome :) Will likely post up the rest tomorrow!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1323 Post by Jimmy »

Sorry Curu just commenting on your last comment about the ETC list.

Death would be great as well for the sheer fact you could plough a purple sun through your own lines from the bunkered spear elves and more than likely you're going to take minimal damage. It's a risk worth taking if you're fronted with an Ogre horde about to charge.

I'm really fascinated by that list. Why didn't I think of that?? :)

Great Batrep by the way.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1324 Post by Curu Olannon »

Yeah Life and Death is really interesting, though to be honest I think it's more about duplication than the threat of PS (especially with the 4-dice cap): don't want Flesh to Stone? Fine, receive Soulblight. Fear Dwellers? Fine, I'll snipe your mages instead. Ironically, it would appear that Life and Death have fairly good synergy and it's definitely worth looking into. I think there are more interesting combinations out there as well, combining two Archmages makes for lots of interesting plays :) It's worth remembering that this is with the ETC restrictions though, where magic shutdown (among other things) is very limited compared to uncomped environments. Speaking of the ETC though, it's interesting that none of these lists sported the Book of Hoeth - which was allowed!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1325 Post by FrankHunter »

Hi Curu, first time I read your thread, you're doing a pretty good job, keep on!
I also was playing with similar ideas (+1M on lions, just two lvl2), and I would like to hear you on some matters.
First, why you choose lore of heavens? For double iceshard to protect the dragon? I was thinking about High Magic, but I guess iceshard is better than 5+ ward.
Second, you feel save with the current setup of the bsb? I am challenged between that and the good old 4++.
Finally, but that's more a rule question, I remember the armor of caledor giving the 2+ ward against flame also to the mount, it's still true? In that case it could be a better choice for the prince.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1326 Post by Curu Olannon »

Hey FrankHunter, thanks!

I am simply using Lore of Heavens now to explore other ways of playing the Star Dragon list. A couple of pages back I wrote a bit about this, in particular how other members of this forum have gotten Star Dragon lists which are quite different than mine, to work very well. Because of this I decided to play something completely different to the (yet) unbeaten WL + SM list which I took to Crusade. Heavens is just an experiment (among many!) which I intend to try out to see if something can work even better for me than my tried and trusted elite infantry. The main power of this lore is its multiple redundant spells: Iceshard Blizzard and Harmonic Convergence are really great buffs, while Comet + Wind Blast affect positioning and the rest deal high-S damage. For protection though the ridiculously low 5+ Shield of Saphery is probably better, all-round.

The current setup of the BSB... Well, I'm kind of torn as to what's best with this guy. On one hand, a magic weapon is super flexible on him, however this does decrease his protection. I believe the Helm of Fortune is a must though, as multiple mid-strength hits WILL be shoved in his face, in which case a low, re-rollable armour is better than a ward.

All kinds of Dragon Armour grant the mount a 2+ ward vs fire, not just the Armour of Caledor :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1327 Post by FrankHunter »

Thanks! Then I guess the best setup for the Prince is the one you're using.
As for Heavens, I massively play it in my WoC army,and I confirm everything you're saying: the combination of offence/buff spells is great, second only to lore of light, wich is better in buffing but to do a good amount of damage requires multiple mages/seerstaff. Maybe that last options is worth thinking about: yes, you will get "only" S5 banishment, but what I'm looking to is double Pha's Protection.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1328 Post by Curu Olannon »

I'm really torn as to what the best setup for the Prince is... More on this later ;)

As for Light, it's most definitely a brilliant lore: see the armies from the ETC a couple of pages back or check out Brewmaster's army blog! However, it has a different focus than Heavens. I'll have more to say on this later.
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#1329 Post by Curu Olannon »

The last part of the game!

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Having wiped the Horrors, Saerith is now ready to take on the Letters. He rear-charges them while the Lions charge the Furies. Naenor charges the screamers behind the wall.

Magic is 11v6 and I throw up a 4D6 bubble Convergence, which he lets through. 4D6 Thunderbolt is dispelled, while a 3D6 Iceshard on the Letters is scrolled.

Shooting sees me deal a single wound to the Fiend.

Combat sees Lions win easily, they need to roll 10+ to engage the Letters... I fail this, and Saerith goes at it alone. Although I easily win, he holds and reforms. Naenor kills all the Screamers and holds his ground.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 5 ::

His Thirster charges Naenor, which is 19" away. I hold, because it's a fairly good chance that he'll miss the charge and even if he hits, I might be able to hold for a turn (-1 to hit, Convergence bubble). Besides, more charges would've likely caught me, had I fled. Anyways, he makes the roll and my noble Elf is in dire straits. His Fiend charges my Archers and I brainfart as I think I cannot stand and shoot because he is in short range.

Magic is 8v6 and he casts cage on the Lions which I dispel with all my dice. The Fireball attempt is scrolled.

Combat sees him challenge Saerith with the champ, and I realize this could go bad: however all the attacks hit! Rolling to wound, however, is a different story: I manage three 1's out of 4 possible! Adding insult to injury, the last one is saved. Unfortunately, he misses it on the re-roll (had Faeria got to attack, it would've been better). I'm thus left taking a massive -4 break test, which I barely make with the roll of two 3's!! Meanwhile, the Fiend I forgot to S&S kills my mage and is left on 1W. The Thirster unfortunately kills Naenor and overruns into Spears with mage.

Image
Picture taken after the Lions charge in my T5

The rest of the game goes like this: Lions rear-charge the Letters and completely wipe them. Thirster is challenged by my mage so is stuck there for the rest of the game (only gets the mage + spears), thus my big Archers survive. He's left with a bit of chaff + thirster, I have big archers, lions and prince on dragon. As we calculate the points, I'm fairly certain I'm ahead and the final tally gives us a 375 point advantage to me - a 12-8 win for the High Elves!

Short evaluation: I lost a lot of points from my chaff in the last couple of turns. His multitude of flyers kept me in place within the units, which were too cumbersome to dodge threats. I made a couple of mistakes with mage placement etc which really could've helped me out quite a bit. I also gave up on catching his mage, which I shouldn't have because he has to take a march test.

Some crazy rolls heavily affected this game, early on I couldn't pass LD tests to save my life, whereas Saerith passed a crucial 6- break test to give me the win. The Lion Chariot in particular noticed the downside of this rolling, as it was unable to impact the game at all with its constant fleeing.

The Prince setup in this game meant that I had to dodge the Thirster. With the Crusade list, I could've played it more aggressively. Also, I'm unsure of whether I think investing in magic is really worth it at all, and whether mobility (cavalry/chariots) is better than more elite infantry. Thoughts?

Some ideas for variations:
- big spear block for core coupled with double beasts mages (double casts of wyssan's, amber spear for biggies, savage beast on flyers etc: lots of great spells!)
- multiple chariots alongside a Lion block
- all-out Star Coven
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1330 Post by John Rainbow »

Curu Olannon wrote:Some ideas for variations:
- big spear block for core coupled with double beasts mages (double casts of wyssan's, amber spear for biggies, savage beast on flyers etc: lots of great spells!)
- multiple chariots alongside a Lion block
- all-out Star Coven
I tried out Beasts magic (albeit on a single mage) and I found a couple of problems integrating it with the dragon list. The main issue is the relatively short range of all the spells - most are 12" and only some of them can be boosted. This is difficult as the mages need to hide away at the back as they are vulnerable yet the quicker elements of your force which are the target for the spells want to make use of their maneuverability and speed. Keeping the two inside of 12" is difficult at best whilst still trying to maintain the movement advantage of this list. The second, lesser issue is that of not having any really good magic missiles. This is more of a problem for myself as I have less ranged output than you but it could become a problem for your list if you remove the archers for spears.

I like the chariot idea and this is something I'm thinking of doing but with Tiranocs as I'm not entirely sure where you would pull the points from for multiple lion chariots and I don't see a huge benefit in Lion v. Tiranoc.

I would love to see the Star coven as a viable list but I'm yet to be convinced. I liked the look of Claudio's list from ETC in terms of the magic setup but it really suffers in the number of decent combat infantry it has available. I still think this kind of setup becomes too reliant on an underpowered magic phase. Maybe it works better in ETC where magic is more limited compared to the 'normal' Warhammer game?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1331 Post by FrankHunter »

I know lore of light quite good, because it's the most common here in Italy. It sure is great, the best one on the rulebook when comparing the effectiveness with the ridiculously low casting values (something would fit well with two lvl2).
Also, Claudio is a player from a nearby town and gaming club, and there was some talk about it around here. Remember that is made for a team torunament, where some of his apparent flaws (lack of combat units) can be overcome with a good pairing. It's also quite straightforward: you banish all you can while you delay with eagles, and pick easy points with the dragon. Lions can be used as a last bastion of defense or more aggressive, depending on the situation. It suffers nothing from the comp on magic, because you will rarely cast a spell with more than 3-4 dice, and the banner of sorcery gives you the upper edge in every phase.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1332 Post by Curu Olannon »

@John Rainbow - I see your points, but I'm not sure lacking archers/mms will be a problem given the mobility of the characters. The range is an issue though, but remember that the primary targets are the infantry. Amber Spear and Anraheir have decent range as well and Wyssan's can be boosted. Anyways, these are just ideas to try out, because I want to see how other versions of the list play :)

@FrankHunter - Indeed the team-context of ETC matters a great deal, however I do believe that the Star Coven can perform well in a more general context as well. Please note that unless otherwise specified, I'm judging a Dragon list's potential in general from a comped-game point of view, as I believe it's way stronger under ETC-ish army composition restrictions than no-comp environments.

As for magic - if anything the ETC restrictions help a Star Coven indirectly in that they utilize their max potential while the strongest enemy combo's are limited :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1333 Post by rusty »

May I suggest you try out an ultra-agressive list with no mages and more flyers, cav, chariots? Probably not the most powerful, but could prove interesting, ref Dark Elf Monster mash. Then again, HE don't have ring of Hotek..

Pretty certain your old prince setup is better. Being able to threaten _anything_ has a large impact on the game.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1334 Post by Curu Olannon »

I'm not exactly what constitutes an 'ultra-aggressive' list if what I've tried thus far is not. Granted, another flying character could probably work but our cavalry and chariots really aren't that good. A mage with the Annulian Crystal is under 180 points and I just don't think it's worth trading that level of magical defense for 5 Dragon Princes. With that being said, I could try and experiment with 1 block of infantry and more fast stuff, like chariots or another flying character. The problem tends to be that when I face heavy hitters (gutstars, bloodletters, white lions) my non-Dragon character(s) are more of a drawback than anything else since they lack the strength and endurance to handle these threats. As such, they need to bring be more value in other matchups/contexts to be worth taking over something else (i.e. infantry).
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1335 Post by de kaasboer »

hey curu,

an option i've been using to add magic to my (msu)dragon list for the past 2 years or so (and has worked pretty well for me) is the following:

prince (on dragon) has both the radiant gem and a scroll (normally with lore of death, as it puts pressure on dispel dice, sometimes heavens)
lvl 2 high mage with ring of fury and silver wand
banner of sorcery (on a unit of DP in my case)

granted, my list is quite different from yours, and not as 'dragon focused', hence i don't see it as a huge downside that my prince is slightly less powerful in combat. he's still a very powerful, very mobile threat.
On the positive, i've got a huge magic phase for only a minor investment: 3 high spells usually includes at least Vauls or Flames, and the ring makes sure i will always have decent ranged dmg output. the death signature is a huge threat to monsters, war machines and low level characters, and can hence be used to draw out dispel dice for a timely vauls or flames, or to soften up a good dragon target.
my magic defense is really ok as well with +3 and a scroll, and multiple ways to take out mages.

i'm pretty sure you'd not be comfortable with toning down the saves on you're prince, which is required to make this option possible, but at least it's something to think about :)

cheers,

J

oh, and keep the battle reports coming, i might not react as often, but i love to read them :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1336 Post by cycloptic squirrel »

Hi Curu,

I had already started my own dragonlist before someone pointed me to your blog, and though not every concept translates to another race exactly, I definitely picked up some pointers reading through everything. I've been posting my own reports and thought I'd give you a heads up in case you were interested in how the other side tackles the dragonlist.
For the record: yes, this is a dark elf site, and yes, we will try to harvest your organs when you're properly distracted :twisted:
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1337 Post by Curu Olannon »

@de kaasboer - thanks for the input! The problem with making the Prince a wizard is primarily that he lacks protection, in my opinion. The Dragon just takes so much focus, even from good opponents, because they're terrified of its power. To this end, I consider maximizing the Prince's protection a vital task.

@cycloptic squirrel - good to see more people running Dragons :) I'm sure that other fractions have a lot of options which simply aren't available to us. As such, I believe they can play the Dragon in a very different way.
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#1338 Post by Curu Olannon »

:: Short status update ::

The last few months have been extremely busy and I haven't had much time nor motivation to play Warhammer. I finished my master's degree in December and have started working now. While I will surely miss the luxury of a student's come-and-go-as-you-please timetable, I am sure I will enjoy actually having free time when I'm off, as opposed to constantly thinking about what you should've done with your thesis or whatever.

Seeing as I've also moved to a new town I don't have a good overview of the gaming environment or opponents nearby. No biggie though, as this gives me a nice chance to catch up on the painting side of things (a couple of friends living close by enjoy painting, I might get a game or two in as well at some point). The last time I did anything with my army I was sick of looking at the half-finished Prince conversion so I clipped him off the Dragon. I am still unsure of how to model this nicely as just about every pair of legs I can find looks retarded on the Carmine Dragon. I would really appreciate your input here!

For me, this is a relatively short post. Regardless, the TL;DR is that I'll definitely get back to Warhammer now, slowly but surely :)

The Norwegian Warhammer Championship was held last weekend. My good friends rusty and Dark Reaper placed 3rd and 4th, respectively. Congratulations on the great results, hoping to see and re-post some reports!
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#1339 Post by rusty »

Welcome back!
Army blog: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579
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#1340 Post by Francis »

Does this mean that the role of primary high elf player in Trondheim is up for grabs? :wink: Good to see that you are back on the forums again. Looking forward to more battle reps.

As for the dragon conversion, have you considered using a normal pair of crouched legs? Like the pair you get from the lion chariot. They lean backwards but if you combine it with some sort of green-stuff battle platform it could work. This just off the top of my head. It turns your prince into a sort of Dragon surfer and even though it might look stupid its worth a shot if you already struggle to find any normal riding legs.
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#1341 Post by Curu Olannon »

@rusty - thanks, good to be back!

@Francis - I don't know what the status of Trondheim High Elf players is to be honest, nor have I since like May or something. As for battle reports, not sure when the next one's gonna be, hopefully before too long but looking ahead I have a few things going on so kinda hard to say for sure.

I've considered having a Dragon surfer but it just doesn't work. The ultraforge Dragon would've been a lot easier in this regard, but such a conversion is impossible with the Carmine Dragon. I think in the end that I'll have to look at possibilities for creating a saddle of some sorts, probably out of greenstuff, because the awkward part is getting the rider's legs to not look like they're miles away from the Dragon's neck.

Heading off to a friend's in a couple of hours to get some painting done. Been a long time!
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#1342 Post by Curu Olannon »

Just got home from a painting session - finally finished the Lions v.1! Now I believe I just have some Archers left and the entire army will be tabletop ready (just about). After that, I'll start going over every single model and improve their details, highlighting etc: basically making everything go from tabletop ready to inspection ready. Additionally, I intend to magnetize all the models, as there's just no reason not to.

Anyways, some pictures. First up, these shots demonstrate the Dragon Rider conversion problem:

The Dragon without a rider. as the photo shows, the free area is situated on the middle of the neck, which is turned to the Dragon's right-hand side.

Image

This shows what typically happens: a rider is turning way too much to the left-hand side (as if facing away from combat), as well as leaning too much forwards:

Image

This last picture shows the same issue as the last one, from another angle:

Image
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#1343 Post by Curu Olannon »

Some pictures of the Lions, which are finally all finished. I'm not proud of their current state, but at least it's better than just having the basecoats done and they look ok at a distance:

Image

Image

Image

Image

The images have all been taken with a blitz, which distorts the colours a bit. I'll make sure and set up a more proper environment once the army is finished :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1344 Post by Galdermester »

Good to see some updates again, and congratulation with the master degree!
I love the concept with the prince on dragon so Ive read through ure "blog" once again. Hoping to learn something so that I one day can field a dragon prince successfully.
(I just fear that the day is far far away :roll: )

But I cant find much in ure blog about standard "non-ETC" ruleset.
Do u have some thoughts about changes in the list with "standard" 2500, and does it alter the playstyle much?
Ive seen the discussions and thoughts about the LOS differences, but not so much else.



Cheers
Galder
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1345 Post by Curu Olannon »

Thanks Galdermester :)

My advice with regards to fielding a Dragon is just to go ahead and learn as things evolve.

I have played very little with the playset from the rulebook. However, what little I have played suggests that a Dragon would do ok, but will also be unlikely to perform as well as under ETC restrictions. Especially with a model such as mine, the TLoS is huge. While magic is also harder and units are bigger, I don't see this impacting my strategy much. It's all about mobility and hitting power and I have yet to encounter a serious problem with that, although some armies will of course be tougher to face.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
Malossar
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1346 Post by Malossar »

Hey Curu welcome back! Congratulations on graduating. Any thoughts on your list? Have you found its still current with the new WD updates? Is there anything you'd like to change?
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1347 Post by Curu Olannon »

thelordcal wrote:Hey Curu welcome back! Congratulations on graduating. Any thoughts on your list? Have you found its still current with the new WD updates? Is there anything you'd like to change?
Thanks man!

I haven't really had time to delve into what's happened in Warhammer for the past few months. Do any of the WD updates concern High Elves? I've heard rumours of some nasty WoC stuff but really I'd need to see it in action before deciding anything :)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
wamphyri101
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1348 Post by wamphyri101 »

When using a dragon remember the 5 d's of fighting cannonballs

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive and...Dodge
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1349 Post by pk-ng »

wamphyri101 wrote:When using a dragon remember the 5 d's of fighting cannonballs

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive and...Dodge
=D>
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1350 Post by Curu Olannon »

@wamphyri101 - indeed I learned the 5 d's many months ago :)

@pk-ng - :shock:

I'm headed to Games Workshop on Saturday to get the Noble kit. I believe it'll have some nice parts for a Dragon Rider conversion. It's been a while since I've been there so I might pick up another couple of things as well, anything in particular you guys would advice me to check out (anything from paints to models)?
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
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