The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

This forum is for the posting of reports of your famous victories and crushing defeats. It is for both single battle reports and for ongoing army diaries/blogs.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8244
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1711 Post by Prince of Spires »

Congrats with the win. A shame you ran out of time. I feel that with a 4th turn in there and all your heavy hitters still at full health you should have been able to table most of his army.

I was surprised you went for the left flank with the dragon and phoenix. It felt like a very risky move to me. You came out allright. But I feel your opponent should have challenged the mage. At 3000pts there should have been a champion in that unit. But if there wasn't then throwing either the general or the BSB under the bus would have saved the unit since it would have denied the dragon using its breath weapon and thunderstomp. That would have kept it alive for at least another turn and let your opponent bring in reinforcements (or at least tied up the monsters).

Of course, he failed his LD test, making the point moot.

I think I would have ignored the left flank initially and gone for the center and right flank first. Of course, that was without knowing about the time-limit, which made scoring as many points as soon as possible a priority.

Your opponent did seem unlucky with his shooting. Which doesn't help if it depends this much on it. Magic on both sides felt weak. Though I think it did show the strength of High Magic. It doesn't need to go big to have a big impact. Drain magic is such a small spell, but its effect can be huge and the +1 ward as a lore attribute is just golden.

The battle also showed the difficulty of dealing with a list with 3 monsters in it. If your tools to deal with such high T, high W targets fail (shooting and maybe magic here) then you're in trouble.
Seredain wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:22 pm Now, let's have some tea and biscuits in the midst of the action, and turn to some of your comments
Thanks for the tea and biscuits. They're an important part of a game of WH for me ;)
SpellArcher wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:45 pm There was a famous song from the sixties (a decade I freaking lived in) called Puff the Magic Dragon!
Thanks for making me feel young ;)

Though it being the 60's I'm not sure they were talking about a WH dragon in that song....
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
User avatar
Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
Posts: 3669
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1712 Post by Elithmar »

First of all, great to see you back Seredain, although the lack of a cavalry prince seems a bit heretical! Honestly though, it must have been interesting to try a more unusual character build, and it was interesting to read about it too.

As to the game... very quick and decisive! Shame you couldn't even finish your turn 3 combat and bag some more points. You only mentioned that you were pressed for time at the end of the report, so I was wondering whether you realised at the start of the game and that influenced your strategy at all? It would be especially interesting given Rod suggesting attacking on the left flank was more risky.

Chaos Dwarfs are one of those armies I know virtually nothing about (although I know a bit more now after reading your report!), so I would probably panic and have no idea what to do if I faced them. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Indeed, from what SpellArcher says, your opponent may not have known some of the CD rules so well either!

Looking forward to reading about the next game.
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
DrSlam
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:23 am
Location: Southern Isles

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1713 Post by DrSlam »

Hi gents,

Hello from Australia here. 'Long time listener, first time caller', to quote from an old episode of the Simpsons...

I too just wanted to say welcome back Seredain. I've been following your blog for a while now, and I'm excited to see new posts being made.

I just have one follow up question. I've noticed that, compared to a previous version of your 8th edition list, you've dropped your Loremaster in favour of extra High Mages. Do you miss spells like Iceshard Blizzard/Miasma/Searing Doom, as well as the added bite that a kitted out Loremaster can provide to your Phoenix Guards? Or do you find the Loremaster + an Archmage too expensive... There are many times when I've rolled low for winds of magic, and end up casting with just the Loremaster.

Thanks and all views welcome.

'DrSlam'
A paean for the High Elves:
"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
- Dylan Thomas
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1714 Post by SpellArcher »

DrSlam wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:53 amHi gents
Welcome Doctor.

:)
DrSlam wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:53 am Thanks and all views welcome.
I believe the Loremaster was omitted because the tournament only allowed 25% Lords.
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8244
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1715 Post by Prince of Spires »

I personally think an archmage and a loremaster don't work very well together. Both want to use most of your powerdice. And while you get a great array of spells, this makes the combination suffer from diminishing returns. The two separate mages do cost about as much as the loremaster, but I think they perform a different role. They're there for the scroll, and to provide the High magic ward save to their respective units. This gives them more utility than the single loremaster (though I would have probably only brought one, but that's just me). They can also help with your spell selection for the archmage if you roll for their spells first.

Though the max 25% lords as a reason sounds pretty logical as well...
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
DrSlam
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:23 am
Location: Southern Isles

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1716 Post by DrSlam »

Thanks SpellArcher and Prince of Spires. Both reasons make sense. I struggle to power a Loremaster + AM in my 8th ed games.
A paean for the High Elves:
"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
- Dylan Thomas
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1717 Post by Seredain »

Chaps,

Thank you for the comments! Food for thought here.
SpellArcher wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:45 pm

The Chaos Dwarf list looks plausible, I just feel your opponent should have been able to squeeze an extra war machine in at 3000pts. The BSB absolutely should have had better protection and not the Banner of Slavery. I'm not sure what load-out the Sorcerers had but Chalice of Blood and Darkness plus a 4+ Ward would have made sense on the Lvl 4. I feel this match-up favours the HIgh Elves but the CD's can certainly put up a fight. Normally I'd be more worried about Flames of Azgorh than Ash Storm but here I agree the latter is public enemy number one. You both seemed to roll a good set of spells, your magic is perhaps slightly stronger but there's not much in it IMHO.

As discussed, the CD's look too dispersed. I would absolutely have had a Sorcerer by that Hellcannon to grant re-rolls but judging by events your opponent may not have been aware this was legal? HIs real crime of course was deploying his two key characters out on a flank without meaningful support.
Agreed on all counts, SA. as a matchup it's the classic war-machine-list problem of Crush Your Enemies vs Get Rolled Over, depending on whether you hit or miss. Actually my lists are often similiar in this respect, except botht the shooting and magic phases are both more "trickly" than this. A hell cannon crushes or misses.

I never found out what his sorcerer lord had, other than the 4+ ward, but his BSB was definitely too easy to snipe. My opponent had a rational for the Banner of Slavery but, in a pretty stationary list, I don't think it did anything for him. I thought that the sorcerer general's unit and goblin blocks would form the backbone of a corner camp, but he seemed to bail out of that strategy as an afterthought. I could be wrong about that but I myself have fallen victim to panicky decision making when faced with too many targets to handle. When your brain says "fuck it", it's easy to make these moves. And in Warhammer that's so hard to recover from. We always say it don't we: so many games are won and lost in deployment.
SpellArcher wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:45 pm Some nice moves in that first turn, in particular the Dragon poised behind that tower. Walking the Frostheart around that flank was splendid. Your opponent charging with his General's unit looks really bad, presumably he should be using the Hobgoblins to deny flank access to the phoenix? I'm guessing he should have challenged the Archmage with a Champion? A more tanky BSB likely survives the bird's attentions and holds for at least a turn. Did your opponent play that non-magical attacks are at -1 to wound K'daai as their book states? The FAQ changes this to requiring re-rolls to wound and crucially clarifies that they do not have Magical attacks themselves. When bringing a niche army like CD's it really pays to know your own rules in detail.

Overall it looks like your opponent was slightly unlucky with his ranged attacks but once the General's unit and the Destroyer went down it was pretty much a clean-up job for the High Elves. As inferred, I feel that the Silver Helm charge on the K'daai was objectively a mistake but even if you wait on the right, your left should be able to roll up his line for a substantial win.
Walk Between Worlds is a tricky spell, often, because it's either useless or so obviously necessary that your opponent will dispel it unless you throw all the power dice at it. Having a list with flyers in it makes it much, much better, because they can move further than ground-based units and, crucuially, they can start off from a position of safety. I've essentially never left a unit exposed at the end of the movement phase in the hope that WBW would save them. Magic's too unreliable. But here I was able to find a spot which was safe and exploitable, because I had at least one monster. Hopefully this is something we'll see more of in my regular 2.5K games.

On the K'dai. This is big! Are you saying it doesn't have magical attacks?? That information would have changed my plan big time. I did ask my opponent when he read his list to me. "Magical flaming attacks?". He said "yes". Poor chap - I hope he didn't make that mistake! My opponent did say that I was -1 to wound it, so some mistakes were definitely made. A pretty soft-reintroduction to the competitive scene, then. But we can expect most of us to be rusty after all this time.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1718 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:50 pm Congrats with the win. A shame you ran out of time. I feel that with a 4th turn in there and all your heavy hitters still at full health you should have been able to table most of his army.

I was surprised you went for the left flank with the dragon and phoenix. It felt like a very risky move to me. You came out allright. But I feel your opponent should have challenged the mage. At 3000pts there should have been a champion in that unit. But if there wasn't then throwing either the general or the BSB under the bus would have saved the unit since it would have denied the dragon using its breath weapon and thunderstomp. That would have kept it alive for at least another turn and let your opponent bring in reinforcements (or at least tied up the monsters).

Of course, he failed his LD test, making the point moot.

I think I would have ignored the left flank initially and gone for the center and right flank first. Of course, that was without knowing about the time-limit, which made scoring as many points as soon as possible a priority.

Your opponent did seem unlucky with his shooting. Which doesn't help if it depends this much on it. Magic on both sides felt weak. Though I think it did show the strength of High Magic. It doesn't need to go big to have a big impact. Drain magic is such a small spell, but its effect can be huge and the +1 ward as a lore attribute is just golden.

The battle also showed the difficulty of dealing with a list with 3 monsters in it. If your tools to deal with such high T, high W targets fail (shooting and maybe magic here) then you're in trouble.
Prince, thank you these are also good points. My first thought, on the left, was to get the phoenix around the back and into some war machines whilst my dragon could pick and choose his targets from behind the tower. He was threatening a charge but I hadn't committed to taking it. That attack on the left really only came about because my opponent charged with his general's unit and exposed its flank to the frostheart phoenix. Otherwise Another slightly panicky move, in my opinion, which gave me an opportunity I couldn't turn down. By that point I knew the BSB had no defence, because I'd cast Unforging on him already. I had the fast cav to pin the goblins and figured I could deal enough casualties with two monsters and buffs that, even if the block held, I could hold that position and take more units in if I had to. I totally agree about the challenge issue! I asked my opponent if he had any challenges, and he said no. Maybe he didn't have a champion after all? Maybe he hoped to tank one round with his 4++ to reduce my combat res? It didn't work out for him in any case.

I love high magic for the reasons you mention. Even in small phases it can do great things. My three mages felt like overkill this game, though. I'd deliberately built that redundancy into the list but I do hate paying points for things that don't get used!

3 monsters... yeah I felt a bit dirty. But at least it was a 3,000 point game! I felt better about that. As SA said, my opponent could have brought another war machine and, as he also said, I fully expected an engineer to be sitting next to the hell cannon. A top CD list could face mine, I'm sure, but on the day this wasn't it!
Elithmar wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:48 pm First of all, great to see you back Seredain, although the lack of a cavalry prince seems a bit heretical! Honestly though, it must have been interesting to try a more unusual character build, and it was interesting to read about it too.

As to the game... very quick and decisive! Shame you couldn't even finish your turn 3 combat and bag some more points. You only mentioned that you were pressed for time at the end of the report, so I was wondering whether you realised at the start of the game and that influenced your strategy at all? It would be especially interesting given Rod suggesting attacking on the left flank was more risky.

Chaos Dwarfs are one of those armies I know virtually nothing about (although I know a bit more now after reading your report!), so I would probably panic and have no idea what to do if I faced them. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Indeed, from what SpellArcher says, your opponent may not have known some of the CD rules so well either!

Looking forward to reading about the next game.
Thanks Elithmar! It felt great rolling those dice again. I admit I couldn't turn down an opportunity to try a dragonarchmage. I've had the model for years and I figured "when in Rome"! The cavalry prince himself will be riding shortly in a 2.5K game, fear not. At this tournament, I made several cav prince lists, but with the bespoke rules for allies, I figured that every army I faced would be fielding ironblasters (etc) and I didn't fancy fielding a deep column of knights into those lists and, at 3K, I thought my usual minibus style wouldn't work.

I've mentioned to Prince, above, that my left-flank attack was somewhat ad hoc. I didn't expect to take that charge and then my opponent's main unit gave me its flank and my eyes filled with dollar signs. The time limit per se didn't influence my strategy at all. This was a mistake of mine - I just didn't keep an eye on the clock at all. Need to work on my tournament craft!
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1719 Post by Seredain »

DrSlam wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:53 am Hi gents,

Hello from Australia here. 'Long time listener, first time caller', to quote from an old episode of the Simpsons...

I too just wanted to say welcome back Seredain. I've been following your blog for a while now, and I'm excited to see new posts being made.

I just have one follow up question. I've noticed that, compared to a previous version of your 8th edition list, you've dropped your Loremaster in favour of extra High Mages. Do you miss spells like Iceshard Blizzard/Miasma/Searing Doom, as well as the added bite that a kitted out Loremaster can provide to your Phoenix Guards? Or do you find the Loremaster + an Archmage too expensive... There are many times when I've rolled low for winds of magic, and end up casting with just the Loremaster.

Thanks and all views welcome.

'DrSlam'
Hi Doc,

Thanks! That's kind of you. As Prince says, the rules of this tournament were for normal armies without End Times rules, so we were back to normal restrictions i.e. 25% lords. The thrust of your question is, however, something I've come back to again and again. Where to fit a metal mage, for searing doom? There's no easy answer here. If a mage goes into the silver helms, you're stuck fielding them deep and with multiple heroes (2+) in the front rank to push the mage into the second rank. He'll die anyway after the champion dies. SD is a spell you want to 66-dice, too, so really you need BotWD in that unit to make the mage work. The helms are bodyguards: they need to be there to take wounds from shooting. Blowing them up with my own spell is a disaster i can't afford. In essence, the only answer is to go Big Bus and lose the flexibility (at least against most lists) to deploy your characters in other places. Where else could he go... the archers? That could work, maybe, but often the archers are pointing at non-armoured targets, of course. The phoenix guard, perhaps with a 5+ ward save? Maybe. Like a mini-loremaster.

In ET games, I loved the loremaster for his utility. But as Prince said, he's hungry for power dice and so reduces the value you get from the archmage's +5 to cast. In the end I just went for a frostheart phoenix in my 2.5K list. Str 6 and no power dice required! Then you just cross your fingers and hope your bolt throwers hit with their single shots...

Cheers!

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1720 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:41 am Agreed on all counts, SA. as a matchup it's the classic war-machine-list problem of Crush Your Enemies vs Get Rolled Over, depending on whether you hit or miss.
Curu Olannon held that armies which can push have an advantage here because if things go bad they can usually run away and preserve quite a few points. If things go bad for the gunline, it’s toast.
Seredain wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:41 am A hell cannon crushes or misses.
One year at the ETC, the England WoC player collapsed from a promising position in the vital last game. His Hellcannon shot scattered on to his own BSB, killing him instantly!
Seredain wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:41 am We always say it don't we: so many games are won and lost in deployment.
Absolutely, especially for Chaos Dwarfs who just can’t adjust in time if they mess deployment up.
Seredain wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:41 am On the K'dai. This is big! Are you saying it doesn't have magical attacks??
Yes. The rationale in the FAQ is that it’s a Daemonic spirit bound into a metal body, not pure magic.
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1721 Post by Seredain »

SA,

Jeez what a howler! That would of course change my approach this game... Well. I asked, so I feel no guilt.

Please tell me the Destroyer still has flaming attacks? It's literally on fire.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1722 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:59 pm Please tell me the Destroyer still has flaming attacks? It's literally on fire.
It does indeed, plus a 2+ Ward against them. In addition, any non-K’daai model in base contact with it at the start of the combat phase takes a S4 Flaming hit. In fact it’s so horrifically on fire it has to pass a Toughness test at the start of each of it’s turns from T2 onwards or suffer D3 wounds (with no save I believe).
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8244
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1723 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:56 pm
Seredain wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:41 am Agreed on all counts, SA. as a matchup it's the classic war-machine-list problem of Crush Your Enemies vs Get Rolled Over, depending on whether you hit or miss.
Curu Olannon held that armies which can push have an advantage here because if things go bad they can usually run away and preserve quite a few points. If things go bad for the gunline, it’s toast.
We also had a member who also had a dwarf army (Musashi maybe? can't remember, I must be getting old), who argued that playing a gunline well at the highest level was a lot harder than playing a mobile army. You can't afford any mistakes, especially in the movement phase, but also when picking your targets, because every sot has to count and it's very hard to either recover from them or to preserve points.
SpellArcher wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:37 am
Seredain wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:59 pm Please tell me the Destroyer still has flaming attacks? It's literally on fire.
It does indeed, plus a 2+ Ward against them. In addition, any non-K’daai model in base contact with it at the start of the combat phase takes a S4 Flaming hit. In fact it’s so horrifically on fire it has to pass a Toughness test at the start of each of it’s turns from T2 onwards or suffer D3 wounds (with no save I believe).
That's brutal. I can just imagine a player at the start of each turn picking up a dice and going "anything but a 6", which is of course the best way to curse your dice roll and get exactly what you don't need...
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1724 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:15 pm We also had a member who also had a dwarf army (Musashi maybe? can't remember, I must be getting old), who argued that playing a gunline well at the highest level was a lot harder than playing a mobile army. You can't afford any mistakes, especially in the movement phase, but also when picking your targets, because every sot has to count and it's very hard to either recover from them or to preserve points.
Maybe this is a dwarf thing we elves don’t understand.

:lol:
Prince of Spires wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:15 pm That's brutal. I can just imagine a player at the start of each turn picking up a dice and going "anything but a 6", which is of course the best way to curse your dice roll and get exactly what you don't need...
It’s worse still for my favourite unit in Warhammer Rod, K’daai Fireborn. They’re Monstrous Infantry with Toughness 4 and only two wounds each.
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1725 Post by Seredain »

And from the October mists, a second report comes. Unfortunately some of that mist appears to have found its way onto my camera for this one. Apologies in advance!

GAME 2 – EMPIRE

My opponent has something like my nightmare Empire list, minus steamtanks.

Karl Franz - barded warhorse, Ghal Maraz
Wizard Lord of Life, dispel scroll, talisman of preservation
Luthor Huss
Witch Hunter
BSB – armour of meteoric iron

12 Knights – FC, Steel Standard (Karl, Luthor and Wiz Lord here).
10 IC Knights – FC, great weapons.
10 Archers
10 Archers

18 Greatswords FC (witch hunter and BSB here);
3 Demigryph knights
3 Demigryph knights

1 Luminark
1 Hurricanum.


So it was Karl ‘Monster Hunter’ Franz and Luthor ‘Mark of Chaos Intro’ Huss bringing their badass hammers forward with a Life Magic life bus. My opponent deployed everything front and centre. Karl´s 3-rank bus faced my centre left. On its right flank were the greatswords, then 3 demis facing my left. To Karl´s left were the greatsword inner circle knights, then the other demis (my right). The spell wagons hovered behind the centre and archers around the flanks.

I had to tackle 4 fast-moving and hard-hitting targets. I couldn’t do all that in one turn and I didn’t want to risk my dragon in a straight fight against Franz’s bus, or his hammer. So I deployed the phoenix guard early, in the centre, to hold for Asuryan. The archers sheltered close to their right, then the helms and a phoenix, hoping to bust through the Empire left flank. On my left flank, the dragon and the second phoenix hoped to bust through there. I wasn’t planning on holding with the dragon so, again, my World Dragon Banner and the dragon itself were separated.

EMPIRE TURN 1

This is an easy one to write. My opponent shouted “Charge!” and everything came forward in a straight line as far as possible. There was some crowding around the building opposite my right flank which slowed the demgryphs there. Close by, the pegasus captain sheltered from bolt thrower fire.

In the magic phase, I dispelled Throne of Vines and Earthblood on Franz’s bus using the power of the Book, but I couldn’t stop Flesh to Stone. (He also had Shield of Thorns and Earthblood.) I wasn’t popping the scroll this turn. That was for base contact Franz time. The luminark discovered that Banner of the World Dragon was in the silver helms.

HIGH ELVES TURN 2

The dragon and left-phoenix both charged the nearest unit of demis. Lucky for me! In the centre I sacrificed some reavers to hold up Franz’s bus and the inner circle knights. No double-flee shenanigans, just straight throwaways to stop these units rolling in free charges. But I got two for the price of one with those lovely long cavalry bases. The phoenix guard advanced into charge range of Franz.

In the magic phase my phoenixes got +1 In and I was able to cast only a drain magic from my archmage to give my dragon a 5+ ward save, and my mage a 3++. Nice. Arcane Unforging was scrolled. Shooting whiffed.

Combat was tremendous. My dragon and phoenix tore into the demigryph knights and sent them running – through the greatswords in fact, because I’d placed my chargers left of centre. Perfect. My dragon archmage reformed but my phoenix flew down the demis and rolled into the flank of the greatswords.

This was looking tidy but it was still all about Franz. Could I hold him in the centre, or would he blow through before I could surround him?

https://imgur.com/a/hY46PyO.jpg
Image
The elves’ monstrous allies force an early decider on the left flank…

https://i.imgur.com/iJ5Dy5k.jpg
Image
…and kill their way to good positions on the field. The elven centre harasses and braces for action.


EDIT: After struggling to get Imgur to work properly and paste the above pictures, I've given up trying. If anyone has any advice, or even better another image-posting app which doesn't make me want to hurl my laptop from a tall window, please let me know!
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1726 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pmGhal Maraz
Because of course!
Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pmLuthor Huss
Seems like he could be quite unpleasant for one round.

Looks like you should be able to manage the bound spells but Life can be quite rude of course. Did he generate Dwellers? At least the Monsters aren’t restricted by threat of cannon. The PG do give you something to work around but of course here they also give him something to target. Picking on the support units first looks like a sound idea though. Overall I like the match-up because he can’t trouble the Star Dragon unless you make a mistake.

Could he have Fled with the charged Demis? The flank of the Greatswords looks like exactly where a Frostheart wants to be, given Thunderstomp.
Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pm EDIT: After struggling to get Imgur to work properly and paste the above pictures, I've given up trying. If anyone has any advice, or even better another image-posting app which doesn't make me want to hurl my laptop from a tall window, please let me know!
Are you using the iPhone app on your Mac Seredain?
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8244
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1727 Post by Prince of Spires »

Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pm EDIT: After struggling to get Imgur to work properly and paste the above pictures, I've given up trying. If anyone has any advice, or even better another image-posting app which doesn't make me want to hurl my laptop from a tall window, please let me know!
You can always aks your friendly neighbourhood administrator to help out... ;)

Fixed them for you (though I got the same image twice...). If you edit your post you can see what they look like. As for the solution: I opened the imgur page, right clicked on the image and selected "Copy image location" (or something similar, the exact wording differs per browser I think). That's the link I pasted inside the [img] tag.

Other options include:
- We now allow direct image uploads! You can attach them as a file to the post and they should show up. There's an "attachment" option below the edit your post window, upload it there and place it inline. Done!
- I use Microsoft OneDrive. I upload the photo's there (or rather, my phone backs them up there automaticall...). They have an option to generate an embedding URL which I use. I'm sure Google drive has the same option.

As for the battle, I think you're off to a good start. If you manage to deal with the support crowd then you can deal with heavy hitters as needed. You're using your mobility to your advantage here and if you can deal with the other Demigryps then you should have the edge in mobility at least. Magic will be tough, but at least you've still got your scroll. And Drain magic is always a nice bonus here. I also love the conga-line reavers. I would have never thought of that.

All in all, I think you're in a good spot. You've got another turn of holding Karl Franz, and the PG should be fine for a round as well. They're excelent at surviving punishment. Wich should give you the time you need to deal with some of the other stuff.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
MasterOfNone
Posts: 376
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1728 Post by MasterOfNone »

I read Seredain's battle reports and I think "Watch and learn..."
So wha'ts happening next?
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1729 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:03 am
Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pm EDIT: After struggling to get Imgur to work properly and paste the above pictures, I've given up trying. If anyone has any advice, or even better another image-posting app which doesn't make me want to hurl my laptop from a tall window, please let me know!
You can always aks your friendly neighbourhood administrator to help out... ;)

Fixed them for you (though I got the same image twice...). If you edit your post you can see what they look like. As for the solution: I opened the imgur page, right clicked on the image and selected "Copy image location" (or something similar, the exact wording differs per browser I think). That's the link I pasted inside the [img] tag.

Other options include:
- We now allow direct image uploads! You can attach them as a file to the post and they should show up. There's an "attachment" option below the edit your post window, upload it there and place it inline. Done!
- I use Microsoft OneDrive. I upload the photo's there (or rather, my phone backs them up there automaticall...). They have an option to generate an embedding URL which I use. I'm sure Google drive has the same option.
Prince that's super helpful, thank you! I see the pictures now. I did as you suggested before but no dice. Strange. I'm blaming gremlins. I'll definitely try the homegrown upload function.
Prince of Spires wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:03 amAs for the battle, I think you're off to a good start. If you manage to deal with the support crowd then you can deal with heavy hitters as needed. You're using your mobility to your advantage here and if you can deal with the other Demigryps then you should have the edge in mobility at least. Magic will be tough, but at least you've still got your scroll. And Drain magic is always a nice bonus here. I also love the conga-line reavers. I would have never thought of that.

All in all, I think you're in a good spot. You've got another turn of holding Karl Franz, and the PG should be fine for a round as well. They're excelent at surviving punishment. Wich should give you the time you need to deal with some of the other stuff.
That's the plan! Getting a 3+ ward save on the phoenix guard would be key.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1730 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:30 pm
Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pm EDIT: After struggling to get Imgur to work properly and paste the above pictures, I've given up trying. If anyone has any advice, or even better another image-posting app which doesn't make me want to hurl my laptop from a tall window, please let me know!
Are you using the iPhone app on your Mac Seredain?
I tried it on iphone and mac. I may as well have been using a shoe.
SpellArcher wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:30 pm
Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pmGhal Maraz
Because of course!
Seredain wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:18 pmLuthor Huss
Seems like he could be quite unpleasant for one round.

Looks like you should be able to manage the bound spells but Life can be quite rude of course. Did he generate Dwellers? At least the Monsters aren’t restricted by threat of cannon. The PG do give you something to work around but of course here they also give him something to target. Picking on the support units first looks like a sound idea though. Overall I like the match-up because he can’t trouble the Star Dragon unless you make a mistake.

Could he have Fled with the charged Demis? The flank of the Greatswords looks like exactly where a Frostheart wants to be, given Thunderstomp.
I felt like my opponent made a mistake not taking cannons, but the tournament comp perhaps helped me there. I also thought it was a mistake not to flee with the demigryphs. Thinking back, I may have missed that there was a possible alternative charge into the greatswords. Maybe my opponent was consciously willing to sacrifice the demis in order to keep Franz's path to my centre free. Something he straight up missed was the potential for a pursuit into the greatswords. Watch that centre-to-centre rule, people!
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1731 Post by Seredain »

MasterOfNone wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:23 pm I read Seredain's battle reports and I think "Watch and learn..."
So wha'ts happening next?
MoN, I'll tell you!

EMPIRE TURN 2

The great weapon knights charged the reavers before them. The demigryph knights, frustrated at the pave of their advance, took the opportunity to charge the flank of the combat and rushed into the open opposite my right wing of silver helms and phoenix. Karl Franz shifted his men to the right but otherwise held firm in the centre and readied to charge the phoenix guard next turn. He realised that the phoenix guard had rushed forward during his manoeuvre, however, and were fast coming up on his own position. The archers hurried forward on the flanks. The spell wagons trundled up behind the centre.

In the magic phase my opponent rolled a poor-average phase, like a 7 v 5, which was squashed by the Book of Hoeth. I wanted to charge across the board next turn, but particularly in the centre, and I wanted my opponent to have zero buffs. Having the scroll still in hand was golden.

During the shooting phase, the archers opposite my left quavered in the face of the terrible, but on my right a bolt thrower crewman fell dead to a rain of arrows there.

In combat, the frostheart phoenix assaulting the Empire right flank killed 5 or 6 infantry and received no blows in reply. On my right, the reavers were scattered by the charging knights. Two units of cavalry reforming in one spot left the demigryph knights within reach of my right flank.

https://i.imgur.com/btnGFyB.jpg

HIGH ELVES TURN 3

To the sounds of trumpets and drums the high elf army attacked across the line. I made all my charges: silver helms and phoenix into the demigryphs, phoenix guard into Franz's cavalry, and the dragon into the flank of the beleaguered greatswords. Not into the knights? No. The dragon, if it charged into the front of Franz's knights, would have to end up in base contact either with the emperor himself, or with Luthor Huss. I didn't want to give those giant killing weapons a giant to kill, so I resolved to clear the flanks first. This was a calculated risk, but it was a risk. The phoenix guard would have to hold.

The magic phase was a good-split 8 phase which saw my phoenixes get +1 initiative. I snuck through drain magic after hand of glory was stopped with a scroll, giving my phoenix guard their 3+ ward. The archmage popped a ward on himself with something else, on a single re-rolled dice.

https://i.imgur.com/op9BQPo.jpg

In the shooting phase my bolt throwers managed to kill respectively no knights and a single archer. Bravo chaps.

In combat, elven glory was won on the right flank, as the noble BSB, silver helms and frostheart phoenixes killed two of the three demigryph models. The survivor failed to wound my BSB, broke and was cut down. The silver helms and their phoenix ally plunged onward into the Empire knights. On my left flank, the dragon bathed the greatswords in fire. In combat it and the phoenix slew the remaining charred greatswords and the witchhunter. The imperial BSB died when he failed to stand. The dragon and phoenix reformed to face Franz's right flank.

The phoenix guard pushed into the confounded knights and cut down 4 models. My opponent needed good rolls against the 3+ ward save. Franz and his men killed 3 guard. Not enough. If Luthor Huss could slay the elven mage at his feet, then the balance could shift. He called for divine aid and went He-Man. But he too was confounded by elven witchery (also a 3+ ward save) and only managed a single wound. The centre held.

EMPIRE TURN 3

The Empire centre needed to cut its way out of this trap and for that my opponent wanted a big magic phase. He got an above average phase but I cancelled it with the scroll and book. No help for Karl this turn - he'd need to break out the old way.

The pegasus captain leapt out of hiding to charge my right-flank wounded bolt thrower next turn. The nearby archers failed to take that final wound.

In combat the phoenix guard dragged down 3 knights and with it 1 rank. This mattered, because Franz and his men rose mightily to their test and killed the remaining rear rank of phoenix guard, and the mage too. My saving hand was getting shaky. But the combat was another stalemate as the phoenix guard grimly held the line.

On the right flank, the silver helms and pheonix killed more than a rank of knights, who broke and fled. The silver helms didn't stop riding, scattering the metal men and crashing into the flank of the Hurricanum. The phoenix reformed to face the centre.

HIGH ELVES TURN 4

My dragon and two phoenixes swept into each flank of Franz's knights. The phoenix guard in the centre were up-skilled with hand of glory and shielded again. My archmage also got a +1 save, again by irrelevant means.

My bolt throwers now woke up, necessity clearly giving them what duty could not, and shot the imperial captain out of the sky.

The Empire army then collapsed into a heap of dead horses and men in broken armour. Before we could resolve the precisely where the elven units ended up from all their pursuits, it at least became clear that Franz and his unit were all gone. Then the bell rang for dice down. These games were going quickly. Thankfully on this occasion, so were my elves!

https://i.imgur.com/XCJEeRp.jpg

A big win. 16-4, 18-2, or so.

Edit: I tried the image function but no dice. Next stop: Google Drive!
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
MasterOfNone
Posts: 376
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1732 Post by MasterOfNone »

I think the master move that turned the battle was positioning there those Reavers.
It totally bottled up the Empire's maneuver.
My painting blog

My WHFB armies:
High Elves
Dwarfs
Orcs and Goblins
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1733 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:36 pm I tried it on iphone and mac. I may as well have been using a shoe.
:(
Seredain wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:36 pm I felt like my opponent made a mistake not taking cannons, but the tournament comp perhaps helped me there.
Can Engineers improve cannon?
Seredain wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:57 am 7 v 5, which was squashed by the Book of Hoeth.
Presumably the Prayers are only dangerous in combat?
Seredain wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:57 am The demigryph knights, frustrated at the pave of their advance, took the opportunity to charge the flank of the combat and rushed into the open opposite my right wing of silver helms and phoenix.
This seems questionable.
Seredain wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:57 am silver helms and phoenix into the demigryphs
Could these have usefully fled?
Seredain wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:57 am This was a calculated risk, but it was a risk.
How do you think things might have played out if he’d managed to kill the PG Seredain? Facing these, it struck me how few things in the game can deal with them.
MasterOfNone wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:53 pm I think the master move that turned the battle was positioning there those Reavers.
It totally bottled up the Empire's maneuver.
The fighting was very compacted wasn’t it MoN? I do think Seredain’s approach was correct and it paid off big time.

=D>
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1734 Post by Seredain »

SA, MoN,

Thanks for the comments. There are a lot of points to unpack there and I think they're all essentially correct. The Empire army crammed itself into a tiny space and offered me charges. They paid off for me and let me steamroll into taking a big win with two whole turns still to go. What could the Empire have done differently?

1. Take shooting to clear out reavers. Speaking from experience, you need to secure those charges! The main reason i gravitated to more and more ranged power in my 8th ed list is so that my opponents would be forced forward, offering me charges, and wouldn't have the chaff to gum up my own movement. I'm not yet sure how the Empire does this, but this army's archers were out of position and essentially useless in this context. Alternatively, just take great weapons on your main knight unit instead of lances. Sure they've only got a 2+ save, but Life Magic will help you there. You don't care if you don't charge but you still force your opponent (with a list like this) to throw his chaff away just to keep you at a distance. In combat, those extra high strength attacks can step up if your characters fail to (below).

2. Take cannons to kill repeaters! Or steam tanks. Personally I fear the latter more because you're basically praying for 4+ to wound on your repeaters before a cannonball rolls through and clears you out, one machine at a time. I've played Empire lists where my bolters felt useless. Here they were pretty useless until they sniped the captain, but their mere presence was enough to force my opponent forward in the urgent manner which made it easier to make mistakes in the movement phase. If he'd had steam tanks instead of buff wagons, then it would have felt like a harder game.

3. Don't get tunnel vision. This was a big bus list and the problem with those can be that you're so focussed on winning the Big Bus combat that you neglect the wellbeing of your other units. That happened here. Now, luck is huge here. For two rounds, my opponent had his largest cavalry unit and 3 pricey characters all hitting my phoenix guard. He might have won that fight, blown through my centre and then (perhaps) arranged a counter-charge on my archmage. Suddenly it's a very different game and, then, the sacrifice of a demigryph unit to draw me out of position looks like a clever play. But it's possible to see that the same ends might have been achieved by fleeing with the demigryphs on my left flank. Personally I would not expect to win against a frost phoenix and star dragon. I would have fled that. But hey, it's been years, we're all rusty, and the time pressure was real this game.

4. Luck again. My opponent (a nice guy) was disappointed with Karl and Luthor's performance, and was right to be. They could have done work, but they flubbed when it mattered most. That said, the 3++ ward save might have achieved the same end anyway, considering that my shooting had been able to do nothing to his main unit.

Something I learned from my perspective... if you're getting weak or average magic phases, and you simultaneously need to be throwing 4+ dice at a single important spell each round, soul quench spam is not a replacement for a strong bolt thrower-based shooting phase. There's a quote in one of our old army books about never deploying without the protection of the eagle claws... I am firmly of that mindset.

Happy weekend all!

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1735 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:43 am Something I learned from my perspective... if you're getting weak or average magic phases, and you simultaneously need to be throwing 4+ dice at a single important spell each round, soul quench spam is not a replacement for a strong bolt thrower-based shooting phase.
I feel the key here is reliability. Long ago in this thread you made the point Seredain that RBT are predictable, while magic can blow hot or cold. I also feel this was a major reason why you won our recent game. Your machines kept chipping away at my troops until these were no longer able to repel a direct assault. My own shooting was too random to depend on.
Seredain wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:43 am Alternatively, just take great weapons on your main knight unit instead of lances. Sure they've only got a 2+ save, but Life Magic will help you there. You don't care if you don't charge but you still force your opponent (with a list like this) to throw his chaff away just to keep you at a distance. In combat, those extra high strength attacks can step up if your characters fail to (below).
Especially as those knights would be Strength 6, though this is less crucial against PG. Part of the joy of White Lions of course. I've just started building a new army and boosting the Strength of the rank and file is quite important to it.
Seredain wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:43 am Take cannons to kill repeaters! Or steam tanks.
Cannon fire is obviously one of the main strengths Empire have and giving it up seems unwise to me, especially at 3000pts. I get the feeling Steam Tanks are a particular headache for HIgh Elves. Another all-comers option might be to take three Great Cannon instead plus Engineers. Yes it's expensive but this is 3000pts and the house rules nerf cannon. With increased reliability enemy monsters in particular cannot just fly around as they please.
Seredain wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:43 am Don't get tunnel vision.
There was a rather similar game early in 8th edition between Stormie and Jal, both formerly of this forum. The latter built his list around a tricked-out World Dragon bus made of Dragon Princes. The crucial combat saw this fail to break through Phoenix Guard over multiple rounds while the rest of Stormie's army took out the rest of Jal's, for the win.
Seredain wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:43 am That said, the 3++ ward save might have achieved the same end anyway,
At the end of the day, what can trouble this unit?

1) Deathstar, except in this case it didn't.
2) Massed shooting or Magic Missiles. 3++ is not immunity, though it takes a lot of fire.
3) Dwellers, Final Transmutation maybe, perhaps one or two other big spells. 6-dicing is not a reliable strategy however.
4) A powerful Monster, whose rider bears the Other Trickster's Shard.

I can't think of much else.
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1736 Post by Seredain »

SA,

Thanks for the comments. Agreed on all points!

I faced a high elf Teclis list (posted in this thread somewhere), with a full gun line plus strong magic phase which saw my Phoenix guard reduced to I think one model… A close run thing! To your list I’d probably add the Witch Star with cauldron and Hellebron. But that’ll chew through anything. For the points I think this Phoenix guard unit is one of the best infantry blocks in the game. It’s a one-unit hinge for all the moving parts to rotate around.

I have a battle coming up where I have to face full heavy armour and two steam tanks at 2.5K. It really, really, stresses me out.

Actually, you could add steam tanks to the list. Phoenix guard can sit on them all day without killing it. RBTs are reliable right up to the point you’re praying those 4+ rolls to wound don’t flop. Which, as we all know, happens. 3+ rolls are magnitudes of betterness.

What are you planning to do with your infantry SA? Are we speaking of elves, or green skins?

Happy Sunday,

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1737 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:55 pm To your list I’d probably add the Witch Star with cauldron and Hellebron.
Agreed though as with the Monster it’s a hefty points investment. I believe 3++ PG (narrowly) beat unbuffed Witch Elves. Plus they’re obviously better vs ranged attacks.
Seredain wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:55 pm I have a battle coming up where I have to face full heavy armour and two steam tanks at 2.5K. It really, really, stresses me out.
What would you say were your other toughest match ups Mr S?
Seredain wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:55 pm RBTs are reliable right up to the point you’re praying those 4+ rolls to wound don’t flop. Which, as we all know, happens. 3+ rolls are magnitudes of betterness.
Hand of Glory is good but we kind of miss Curse of Arrow Attraction here.
Seredain wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:55 pm What are you planning to do with your infantry SA? Are we speaking of elves, or green skins?
Chaos Dwarfs! I’ve got the guts of an army and as I have the Magnum Opus of a book it’d be a shame not to do it.
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1738 Post by Seredain »

Chaos Dwarfs! Amazing. Seredain’s oldest and greatest enemy was a corrupted dwarf sorcerer lord named Zochaz (prn. Zot-chaz) who turned to magic and darkness during the War of the Beard, and slew Seredain’s father Urithan. As I recall, the legend was born when my friend Matthew and I were playing bedroom Floorhammer when we were children (no points limits, just drop all the models you own). This sorcerer lord was running at my back line, alone. I unloaded an entire dwarf organ gun into him and he bounced all the shots. A legend was born.

I look forward to persecuting this conflict with severe prejudice!

The worst matchup for me is decked-out ogres with all the toys. The chariot cannons easily snipe my RBTs and they’re too hard to catch if there are buildings for them to dance around. Turns 1-3 they kill my bolters, turns 5-6 they snipe my cavalry characters. Light cavalry or eagles can’t hurt them, and there are enough excellent units in the top tier ogres lists that you can’t expect to “blow through” quickly and still have enough time to get on the manoeuvrable lascannons. The super cheap solo-cats add in the best chaff in the game and, in all, it makes winning a war of range and movement very difficult. The best strategy really is to focus all mundane fire on the gutstar and just YOLO charge it. If you win, losing your general to cannonballs at the end of the game is a loss you can bear. Whoever gets first turn has a big advantage.

Empire armour spam with Lifestar knight bus (w/ great weapons), double demis and double steam tank poses a similar threat. Happily, they have fewer abusive items/units like the hellheart and las-chariots, or mistaken mechanics like the armoured slaughter master to tilt the balance.

The Phoenix I’ve added to my list should help with these armies a great deal (it was these matchups which killed off the dragon princes for me). However I haven’t faced the ogre matchup since the change. The Empire matchup was tricky enough that I acquired an army on eBay to practice it. Lesson one: be prepared to throw magic dice at Walk Between Worlds to hide your Prince behind a building on Turn 6!

I never wanted to acquire ogres. Their top items and units always screamed ‘Nerf Bat’ (whenever they get round to finishing Old World). In the meantime, you’d have to be That Guy or else field bad units. The Ogre book is like that: the choices are either amazing or crap.

Other candidates for causing me nightmares would include any list that can shoot me to death on turn one. But where those lists are stationary, I always have the option to hide and play points denial if the worst happens. Not so bad. Hopefully I can get a game in soon to show you what I mean!

Happy Tuesday,

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13834
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1739 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:50 am I look forward to persecuting this conflict with severe prejudice!
You’re on! There is the small matter of me actually painting the army of course...
Seredain wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:50 am The worst matchup for me is decked-out ogres with all the toys. The chariot cannons easily snipe my RBTs and they’re too hard to catch if there are buildings for them to dance around. Turns 1-3 they kill my bolters, turns 5-6 they snipe my cavalry characters. Light cavalry or eagles can’t hurt them, and there are enough excellent units in the top tier ogres lists that you can’t expect to “blow through” quickly and still have enough time to get on the manoeuvrable lascannons. The super cheap solo-cats add in the best chaff in the game and, in all, it makes winning a war of range and movement very difficult. The best strategy really is to focus all mundane fire on the gutstar and just YOLO charge it. If you win, losing your general to cannonballs at the end of the game is a loss you can bear. Whoever gets first turn has a big advantage.
We are of course big fans of RBT around here but they are pretty static. Armies with more mobile ranged attacks are perhaps better equipped to neutralise the Ironblasters. I’m wondering if a bigger bus of say 20 models would make a difference? A phoenix would surely draw fire away from your cavalry. Again, I think some of these issues are High Elf specific, I was always happier facing Ogres with my Wood Elves.
Seredain wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:50 am Empire armour spam with Lifestar knight bus (w/ great weapons), double demis and double steam tank poses a similar threat. Happily, they have fewer abusive items/units like the hellheart and las-chariots, or mistaken mechanics like the armoured slaughter master to tilt the balance.
So hard but fair? Of course they also have the Coven of Light option with Halberdier block. I get the feeling you regard Empire as a difficult challenge that can nevertheless be resolved!
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1131
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1740 Post by Seredain »

SA,

I think there are two tricks to using repeaters against ogres. 1) Use obstacles if you can find them. It’s easy mode but in a proper randomised table they have a good chance of showing up to bounce a cannonball for free. 2) Don’t be drawn into a shootout with your repeaters vs his ironblasters. A competent opponent will make sure they are in hard cover at all times, so you will lose this trade. The best thing to do is target something important you can actually kill - that’s the irongut deathstar.

I much prefer in this matchup to run my helms 1 rank deep, so I don’t offer 4-rank shots to a single cannonball. A smaller unit which surrenders 1 knight a turn will last longer than a unit double the size which offers 4 knights for the first two cannonballs, then 3 knights etc. I don’t think the big bus works for me as a solution. You can bounce cannons with your iron curse icon + high magic combo, but having put all your eggs in this basket, - front-and-centre hellheart will wreck you. I’ve never tried it, though. Perhaps if you spammed 5-man white lions squads to block up the iron guts, you could run around with your big bus cleaning house, maybe? I’m not sure… Silver helms aren’t the best in this matchup.

Empire Light gun lines… don’t worry me so much. It’s easy to target the demigryphs early and the halberd block (in my experience) usually sits back making target priority much easier than when a whole armoured division is bearing down on you. The archers are excellent against halberdiers and really earn their salt. I do like having the extra mage in this context, though. Book of Hoeth + Scroll, lots of magic missiles with Hand of Glory, plus the 4 RBTs, is a lot of pew pew for infantry empire to handle, even with the steam tanks.

Do you have an example Empire list in mind?

Happy Sunday,

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
Post Reply