Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

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Cold Phoenix
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#481 Post by Cold Phoenix »

Tethlis, nice to have you back. I've missed your battle reports for a while. I'm really interested in the direction your new list is taking. Do you feel that the "don't have enough power dice" lable internet wisdom hangs on Loremaster + Archmage may not be entirely deserved?

It's also nice to see someone else using high, given that many of the better players who post BRs here seem to have written it off. I decided long ago that while High Magic has some problems (lack of direct combat buffs, some spells which are very situational), 3++ Phoenix Guard are very good and against some opponents (namely anyone without OTS or access to a very high number of attacks), borderline broken.

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Tethlis
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#482 Post by Tethlis »

I rationalize the Loremaster this way: I can have a support caster with scroll... And by dropping a unit of 10 sisters I can get infinitely better spell selection, a Noble level stat line with Lord-level magic item access for valuable magical CC attacks and re-rollable Strength 6, and a superior backup caster if my AM dies. Similarly I am finding that Fiery Convocation and Arcane Unforging are just downright game breaking in a lot of matchups. Infantry blocks are alive and well here in the U.S., and Elves are in ascendance, and Convocation is a superior nuke versus both of those unit categories.

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Curu Olannon
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#483 Post by Curu Olannon »

I`m really liking this approach, Tethlis! Have you considered the Gem of Sunfire for the Loremaster? By dropping the Ogre Blade => Sword of Might you should be able to squeeze it in ;)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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John Rainbow
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#484 Post by John Rainbow »

Nice list and results Tethlis. I have a couple of thoughts on potential changes though...

Why take full command on the archers and SHs? I can see the argument on the helms depends somewhat on usage but do the archers need the champ/standard in your games? Is this purely for Blood & Glory scenarios?

Do you find your BSB kit actually makes him any more survivable in CC? I don't really see a 4+ AS being very useful. I think a better option might be to drop the halberd so that you can potentially make use of a Shield of Saphery buffed parry save in combat or go the other way and not bother with the shield/armour if you value the higher Str. attacks. I guess what I'm getting at is that I just don't see this kit as being all that effective defensively as the BSB is still going to go down against any other combat oriented character or infantry with a good number of even Str.4 attacks - those points might be better used elsewhere or in giving the BSB different equipment.

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Tethlis
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#485 Post by Tethlis »

John Rainbow wrote: Why take full command on the archers and SHs? I can see the argument on the helms depends somewhat on usage but do the archers need the champ/standard in your games? Is this purely for Blood & Glory scenarios?

Do you find your BSB kit actually makes him any more survivable in CC? I don't really see a 4+ AS being very useful. I think a better option might be to drop the halberd so that you can potentially make use of a Shield of Saphery buffed parry save in combat or go the other way and not bother with the shield/armour if you value the higher Str. attacks. I guess what I'm getting at is that I just don't see this kit as being all that effective defensively as the BSB is still going to go down against any other combat oriented character or infantry with a good number of even Str.4 attacks - those points might be better used elsewhere or in giving the BSB different equipment.
Oh right, forgot to mention that the current incarnation of command setup is purely for upcoming tournament scenarios. A Blood and Glory variant will make an appearance, one scenario requires characters to have a unit champion to grab/contest table quarters, and another has something called "character fortitude" which hands out a battle point if you have more characters/champions alive at the end of the game than your opponent. So yes, a bit odd, but appropriate for events coming up.

As for the BSB, my hope is that she's never going to see combat unless it's against ultra-light opposition. I've had a lot of opportunities where, for example, a banged-up Gyrocopter charges into my bolt throwers and gets stalled there, or someone throws the ragged remains of a fast cavalry unit into my backline to jam up firing lanes and cause trouble. In situations like this, I've found that adding the BSB into the fight with some reliable re-rollable Strength 5 is often good for "cleaning up the trash" and finishing those units off. If the combat seems moderately threatening, I don't commit her and she moves to safety. It's isn't meant to optimize her for combat, but rather a handful of points spent to add a little useful utility.

@Curu
Gem of Sunfire huh? An interesting thought. To synergize with all those various Flaming Magic Missiles the Loremaster can utilize?

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Curu Olannon
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#486 Post by Curu Olannon »

It`s obviously for the missiles. Key things include:
- Fireball hurting WMs on 5s
- Shem`s hurting WMs on 4s (you probably have to boost it anyway)
- Searing Doom hurting Dragons on 2s, increased viability vs e.g. Gyrocopters as well
- Fireball hurting Elves on 2s
- Fireball hurting T5 stuff on 4s (Beasts of Nurgle wouldn`t like a Fireball followed up by Shem`s with the Gem)

ETC FAQ has ruled that you can declare the Gem AFTER rolling for hits. Even if you don`t play ETC, it`s a precedence which you can use as an argument, if nothing else.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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Bolt Thrower
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#487 Post by Bolt Thrower »

Great to see you hang in there and overcome that early disaster vs. the dwarfs. I could easily see many players just call it or go through the motions on their way to defeat. But not the Asur!

You probably have considered the potion of strength on your BSB? I'm not entirely sure how you get there without dropping a model or two from your infantry/sisters, but I wonder if you see that one time high strength shooting round as worth it particularly against war machines or monsters.
Curu Olannon wrote:It`s obviously for the missiles. Key things include:
- Fireball hurting WMs on 5s
- Shem`s hurting WMs on 4s (you probably have to boost it anyway)
- Searing Doom hurting Dragons on 2s, increased viability vs e.g. Gyrocopters as well
- Fireball hurting Elves on 2s
- Fireball hurting T5 stuff on 4s (Beasts of Nurgle wouldn`t like a Fireball followed up by Shem`s with the Gem)

ETC FAQ has ruled that you can declare the Gem AFTER rolling for hits. Even if you don`t play ETC, it`s a precedence which you can use as an argument, if nothing else.
This sounds like a really nice upgrade to this list. It seems to me that the Ogre Blade is equipped more for magical attacks than for the S6. That need for magical CC attacks is much more situational than the opportunities to use the Gem of Sunfire. Being able to maintain the magical attacks, albeit at S5, but increase the effectiveness against multiple possible targets in virtually every game seems like a great compromise and opportunity.
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[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31532]Bolt Thrower's High Elves[/url]

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Tethlis
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#488 Post by Tethlis »

Interesting. Will contemplate on that, and that ETC ruling is really helpful. Worth noting, the Potion of Strength is in there... I retyped the list from memory and forget to add it in there, but I never leave home without it. It's the primary reason why the BSB is as light on defensive items as she is.

Good input guys. I'm locked into this current list as it stands since I've already submitted it for at least one event, but will look to make changes/tweaks once the event is done. Cheers.

Malossar
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, quick update with Tourney Practicep

#489 Post by Malossar »

Hey Tethlis welcome back to the interwebs and the blogosphere. Really enjoying the army list, I think this list has the toolbox capable of making a run at the top tables. How're the sisters getting on?


Can't wait to see you at QCR, first round's on me. Good luck!
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
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Averlorn
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#490 Post by Averlorn »

Tethlis, this thread is so much full of awesomeness :-)

Can't wait to read your next report!

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Knight of the Raven
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#491 Post by Knight of the Raven »

Hope this is not too much of a thread-necromancy...

I'm tactically-challenged so I don't think I've learned how to play the game better from reading this thread, but I've enjoyed every Asur battle report you've posted. I'm glad to know high elves can be played without great eagles. I don't recall the phoenix guard's fear and the phoenix's terror ever coming up; did the units they fought always pass their leadership test?

I'm also curious about the looks of your army, do you have a project log featuring your models?

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Velmates
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, Wood Elf weekend! 4 WE batreps

#492 Post by Velmates »

I know it has been a very long time since the last post (and even longer since your last post) but with all the development in the 9th Edition fan project, I wanted to ask if you have taken some time, reading through the possible changes to high elves. If yes, I would highly appreciate your opinion and your view of the new rules. Maybe you even want to give your input in the 9th ed. forum. I have always been a fan of your reports and learned a lot from your style of play. I would be happy to do so as well in the future.

Cheers!
- Velmates

Check out [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63818]my painting blog[/url]!

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Tethlis
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years.

#493 Post by Tethlis »

Hi All. It's been many, many years since I posted a battle report. When Games Workshop killed Warhammer Fantasy, I started playing Infinity very competitively, and that's been my main system. However, I've been jumping back into Warhammer Armies Project, both in person as well as with tabletop simulator.

I recently played a 3000 game versus Daemons. I know 2500 is still the standard, but 3000 point games allow me try out a few different list options to see what units and compositions I like in the new rule system. Without further ado:

Lord
Liselette, the Shadow Weaver
Lvl 4 Archmage (220) with Book of Hoeth (60) Ironcurse Icon (5) Guardian Phoenix (30) - 315
High Magic: Drain Magic, Soul Quench, Apotheosis, Hand of Glory, Arcane Unforging, Fiery Convocation

Eydin, Warden of Tor Galadh
Prince (125) with Sword of Ages (60) dragon armor (5) shield (3) Temakador's Gauntlets (30) Seed of Rebirth (10) rides an Ithilmar barded elven steed (27) - 260

Hero
Kurin, the Lioness
Noble (60) with battle standard (25) dragon armor (5) shield (2) Helm of Fortune (30) Ithilmar barded elven steed (18) Sword of Might (15) - 155

Core
Scions of Tor Galadh
13 Silver Helms (286) with full command (30) Banner of Defiance (50) - 366

Raven Emmissaries
5 Reaver Knights with musician - 75
5 Reaver Knights with musician - 75

Bastion Sentinels
19 Archers (228) with musician (10) - 238

Special
The Oakborn Pride
22 White Lions of Chrace (330) with full command (30) Banner of Sorcery (50) - 410
Lion Chariot - 110

The Shadow Weaver's Handmaidens
12 Sisters of Avelorn - 216
12 Sisters of Avelorn - 216

Bastion Sentinels
Bolt Thrower - 60
Bolt Thrower - 60

Total: 3000

Image

Rare
Hearthguard
24 Phoenix Guard (384) with full command (30) Razor Standard (30)- 444

The Daemons had:

Lord
Great Unclean One (430) Level 4 (105) with Soul Hunger (30) Balesword (25) Daemonic Arrogance (20) - 610
Stream of Corruption, Curse of the Leper, Rancid Visitations, Fleshy Abundance, Plague Wind

Hero
Herald of Nurgle (Level 1) (110) Locus of Fecundity (25) Stream of Bile (30) Massive Stature (20) battle standard (25) - 210
Stream of Corruption, Blades of Putrefaction

herald of Khorne (110) Might of Khorne (20) Soul Hunger (30) Locus of Wrath (40) - 200

Core
29 Plaguebearers of Nurgle (348) with full command (30) Banner of Defiance (50) - 428
27 Bloodletters of Khorne (324) with full command (30) Razor Standard (30) - 384
5 Flesh Hounds of Khorne - 105
5 Flesh Hounds of Khorne - 105

Special
5 Beasts of Nurgle - 275
6 Flamer of Tzeentch (192) with Pyrocaster (10) - 202

Rare
Skull Cannon - 240
Skull Cannon - 240


Total: 2999

Image

Going into deployment, I knew two things: My opponent would almost certainly get +1, much of his army would need to footslog to me, and I needed as much mutual support of my battleline as possible because Daemons need to be ground down over multiple rounds of combat.

Deployment
The Daemons won table side. They opted to deny me the two corner hills which would have made for easy castling for my ranged units, and they also had a central Forest to give their units a bit of ranged protection. We followed the usual format... His Hounds, my Reavers, his ranged, my ranged, etc but I eventually saw where his regiments would go. No surprise, they were fairly centrally deployed. I opted for something a little tricky... I set my combat regiments up on my left (the Daemon's right) with most of my ranged on my right (the Daemon's left.) My hope is that he would either break up his battleline to try and chase down both my combat and ranged wings, splitting up his force, or that he would concentrate entirely on one wing or the other, leaving my unengaged wing free to operate. The deployment of my cavalry was my biggest risk. He had relatively little chaff or support on his Right, and I thought that my Helms + Characters would be able to overwhelm and collapse that flank. The risk though is that it put my General and BSB far from the main battleline, leaving my psychologically vulnerable if combat went against me.

Image

Daemon Turn 1
Full Daemon Advance, with a hound charge to frighten away my reavers, which I fled. Most of the Daemons rushed for the shelter of the rock wall, or lingered in the forest, hoping to deny me good shooting targets. The big event was a snake eyes in Magic actually pinged Wounds off multiple units. Most notably, both Hound units were ravaged despite being near their General, and even the Great Unclean One himself lost 2 Wounds to the fading winds. This was hugely fortunate for me. The more damage that could be done to the GUO early, the better. The Flamers responded by obliterating one of my Reaver units with their flames. The Lion Chariot was obliterated with a single cannonball.

Asur Turn 1
I mainly kept my battleline tight. A strong 3 + 2 Magic Phase, +3 from Banner of Sorcery, gave me great options. Boosted Soul Quench on the Flamers went off easily, but underperformed in damage, doing 1 pitiful Wound. However, I got off Fiery Convocation on the Bloodletters. This also underperformed with damage, killing a mere 5, but would at least force my opponent to deal with it in future magic phases. One unit of Sisters volleyed a rank off the Plaguebearers, starting to thin the numbers on that very durable and scary block. The other Sisters underperformed, a mere 1 Wound off a Skullcannon. My Archers advanced to Enfilade the Flamers behind the rock wall, shooting one off, while the bolt throwers cleared a hound pack. This shooting phase was not as focused as I would have liked... The daemons did an excellent job making use of the terrain, which resulted in me splitting my fire more than I would have done otherwise.

Daemon Turn 2
This was a key turn for the Daemons. Here was their situation at the start:

Image

At this juncture, my battleline was coherent and arrayed for mutual support. The Lions were at their strongest, with high unit strength, a 4+ Ward Save and Stubborn, and were obviously the easiest target for the Daemons to reach. But they would likely hold versus pretty much any attack, allowing my other elements to come in and Flank. The Daemons needed to press their attack, since they didn't want to sit in No Man's Land versus my magic and firepower, but they didn't want to charge into the trap my Lions had set for them. Here's what they ultimately chose to do:

Image

They committed the Plague Beasts in a fast advance against the Silverhelms, hoping their extreme durability (plus some magic and ranged support from the GUO and Skullcannons) would thin the Helms enough to help the Beasts hold. This would hopefully buy time for his multiple combat units to bring their force to bear on my two infantry units. Even if the Plague Beasts were eventually defeated, the GUO was Stubborn, and could potentially use a Challenge + Stubborn to maintain his durability and help hold the Daemon right flank if the Silver Helms broke through.

Following through with this Plan, the GUO committed all his Power Dice to trying to get Curse of the Leper (+Toughness) and Fleshy Abundance (+Regen) on the Plague Beasts. He was off to a promising start, 10 Power Dice vs my 6 Dispel. Fleshy Abundance results in a miscast that Siphons Dice, which I'm able to Dispel on 4 dice. The GUO throws his remaining dice on +Toughness, which I barely Dispel thanks to a Book of Hoeth re-roll and the +1 racial to Dispel. Extremely close, and that Miscast result was huge in my favor. The winds are fickle!

Khorne showed his opinion of the magic phase with a laugh, his Skullcannons both round and grapeshotting to annihilate a whopping 8 Silver Helms. Apparently Bloodletters are Ballistic Skill 5, who knew. Tzeentch, not to be outdone, opens up with the Flamers on the Sisters of Avelorn, killing half the unit.

I think the Daemons made a key mistake here too: in their enthusiasm to buff the Plague Beasts, they ignored (or forgot) Fiery Convocation. This absolutely decimated the unit, killing nearly Half the remaining Bloodletters and dramatically reducing that unit's effectiveness.

High Elf Turn 2
The Phoenix Guard charge the Hounds intended to Speed Bump them, while the Prince led his entourage against the offered Plague Beasts. It's a good thing my opponent put those hounds there too. With the Bloodletters devastated by Magic, I'm not sure they could have held against the Phoenix Guard or White Lions, even manning the defended wall like they were. That could have allowed me to break out of the trap the Daemons were trying to close on the High Elves.

Knowing combat was imminent, my Magic Phase was all about getting Shield of Saphery up on the Lions. 3D6 Soul Quench once again disappoints, failing to do anything to the nearest Skullcannon, while the bolt throwers show what a doubtful use of points they are by failing to do anything against Skull Cannons as well. Once again, the Daemons have made good use of the stone walls to help deny me the ability to mass my fire on single targets. However, the Sisters continue to prove their worth by knocking another rank off the Plaguebearers, as well as a further Wound off the Great Unclean One.

It was the Archers who had the best contribution. The Bloodletters had underestimated them, giving them an enfilading shot from the flank. Nearly 40 shots later, and the only survivor was the Herald; the entire Bloodletter unit had been sent back to the Void, heavily changing the Daemon's prospects for the coming turn.

In combat, the Phoenix Guard wiped the 2 Hounds and neatly reformed, helping to keep the Elven battleline intact. The Prince + Helms were much more interesting. The charge was absolutely thunderous, and the Daemons just couldn't find their dice. Between the Prince, BSB, lances and impact hits, I'd outright killed two Beasts. The remainder couldn't scratch Elven armor. Despite the heavy shooting casualties, the Cavalry managed to obliterate the Plague Beasts in a single round. Neither of us expected this particular outcome, given the legendary durability of the Plague Beasts, but my opponent's terrible magic phase played a key part.

Here are the lines of the Asur, after all combats were complete. I made a key error here: I reformed the Cavalry to keep the Skullcannons in my front arc, fearing their charge. This was foolish... I should have wheeled so that they could support the infantry with a charge in future turns, risking the Cannons charging the cavalry flank/rear and simply making way with my characters and beating the chariots down if the situation called for it. This mistake would be costly.

https://iili.io/Ha5ek8J.png

Daemon Turn 3
Charge! The Daemons came barreling into combat: Plaguebearers and their Herald versus Phoenix Guard, the Great Unclean One and lone Khorne Herald versus the White Lions. The Flamers were happy to get my bolt throwers off the field, charging one for an easy overrun into the second. The two Skullcannons fanned out to open fire on the Silver Helms, hoping to deplete them to uselessness with their lethal grapeshot.

Image

For magic, both the Level 1 Herald and GUO puke on my infantry, but the Ward Save holds on and limits the damage to 1 dead PG, 3 dead Lions. The GUO miscasts again, allowing my Archmage to immediately cast Hand of Glory on the Lions, which the Daemons have to use their remaining dice to Dispel.

Both Skullcannons opened up on the Helms, hoping to replicate their success from last turn. Apparently Khorne had second thoughts on the martial honor of such methods, because both cannons only generated a mere 8 shots between them, rolling poorly overall for a mere two Wounds off the helms. This could have been the Shooting Phase that ended the game, but simply showed that Grapeshot (while potentially powerful) is highly unreliable.

In combat, the Flamers made easy work of the first bolt thrower, overrunning into the second. My Phoenix Guard fought the Plaguebearers, and simply could not hack their way through the strong defenses of the Nurgle Daemons; zero wounds inflicted. The Daemons and their Herald had no such reservations, killing 3 Phoenix Guard. The casualties, the weight of their charge, and the presence of their battle standard tipped the odds heavily against the Phoenix Guard, breaking and fleeing. My opponent now had a very difficult decision: pursue the Phoenix Guard, netting their points and potentially also killing the Sisters of Avelorn nearby, or reforming to aid the GUO vs the Lions in future turns. Not an easy choice. But the Great Unclean One and Herald seemed perfectly comfortable in the fight, and they had plenty of time to keep grinding the Lions down since no help would be coming for the High Elves yet. They opted to pursue the Phoenix Guard, who managed a shocking escape by rolling an 11 to flee, but panicking the nearby Sisters and causing them to flee as well.

Things were now looking dire. By battle line was crumbling. The White Lions hefted their axes and prepared for the onslaught, but the Great Unclean One went straight for the Archmage. Very careful not to issue a challenge, since he didn't want to give the Archmage the ability to hide, he swung wildly for her. Apparently his swings were a bit too wild though, only generating 3 Wounds despite the abundance of re-rolls. Knowing that each of these Wounds could be fatal, the Archmage put her faith in the Shield of Saphery... And passed all her Ward Saves. Wild.

The Lions, meanwhile, felled the Herald of Khorne like a godamn tree. Dead in one round. The Lions actually won the combat, but the GUO easily held thanks to Stubborn.

High Elf Turn 3
This is where error last turn really cost me. I could have been charging the Prince and BSB into the flank of the injured Greater Daemon, lending their significant killing power and durability to the combat. Instead, I had to waste this turn reforming to face the Daemon, even as the Archmage and Lions were fighting for their lives.

However, the Phoenix Guard rallied, turning to phase the oncoming Plaguebearers and their Herald. The Sisters, deciding they'd had enough, failed to rally and fled the field in disgrace.

My Archmage, knowing she was casting for her life, started by tossing as many small spells out as she could to help juice up Shield of Saphery. With a strong 11 to 6 Dice phase, this was done easily, with my opponent forced to hold his dice to prevent a lethal Fiery Convocation or even a Vaul's Unmaking. Sure enough, I used Vaul's Unmaking to unmake the GUO's balesword, hoping to giving my Archmage more of a fighting chance. With the Sword unmade, and her Shield of Saphery at full power, I was feeling good about my combat prospects.

Apparently I spoke too soon though: The Greater Daemon, completely unphased, Hit and Wounded with all attacks. Phasing 6 Ward Saves, I failed 3, sending the Archmage to her doom. The Lions hacked desperately at the GUO's flabby bulk, but could find no weakness, even as the Daemons stomped 5 of them into paste. The Flamers finished off the second Bolt Thrower.

Daemon Turn 4
Reveling in the death of the Archmage, the Great Unclean bellowed his laughter, ordering his Plaguebearers into the Phoenix Guard once again. Things were looking very grim for the Asur. One of the Skullcannons charged the Lions, hoping to help the GUO finish the Elven infantry now that Shield of Saphery was gone. The other Hellcannon charged the rear of the Silver Helms, hoping to bog the Cavalry down and buy time for the Great Unclean One to finish the Lions and complete its victory.

Between the Skullcannon's thunderous charge and the unstoppable bulk of the Great Unclean One, the Lions were hard pressed. They did manage to further injure the GUO, taking it very near its limit. Despite this, they were practically killed down to their Command Group.

The other Skullcannon, confident of an easy Victory, found itself stunned when its 4 impact hits failed to penetrate Elven Armor. With nearly contemptuous ease, the Prince and BSB made way and hacked the Skullcannon apart before it could even swing. The Warden of Tor Galadh and his household were now set to charge the Great Unclean One, but would it be in time?

The situation was made more precarious when the Plaguebearers easily beat the Phoenix Guard, who once again failed to make any mark at all against the Plaguebearer's unnatural hides. They broke from combat and fled the field, the Plaguebearers and their leader reforming from victory to face the few remaining Lions.

Image

High Elf Turn 4
It would all come down to this. The Prince led his Household in their charge against the Great Unclean One. The wall of Elven steeds partially trampled the Great Unclean One, taking him to his last Wound. Calling a challenge, the Prince accepted. Wordlessly, he disemboweled the GUO in a veritable deluge of guts and offal, before burying the glittering blade between the Greater Daemon's Eyes. He'd done the necessary Wound to kill the Greater Daemon outright. Overwhelmed at this loss, the Skullcannon disintegrated from reality, but not before hacking the White Lions down to two sole survivors.

Knowing the 2 Lions would be a juicy target for the Flamers on the field, every bow I had loosed at the Flamers, massacring all... but 1, alive on a single Wound.

Remaining Turns:

Image

Despite my incompetence with the Cavalry positioning very nearly costing me the game, my Silver Helms went on to redeem themselves, with the Prince leading his retinue in a final charge to finish off the Plaguebearers that had wrought so much havoc in his lines. My remaining ranged units eventually hunted down the last Flamer, but not before it eradicated the last two Lions, netting those points for my opponent. This was a shame... The Lions had acquitted themselves well, and I would have liked to save at least some of them.

Asur casualties:
Archmage - 315
Silverhelms (half) - 183
5 Reaver Knights - 75
5 Reaver Knights - 75
22 White Lions - 410
12 Sisters of Avelorn - 216
Bolt thrower - 60
Bolt thrower - 60
Lion Chariot - 110
24 Phoenix Guard - 444

Total: 1948

Daemon casualties:
Completely annihilated - 2999
Dead general - 100
BSB killed in combat - 100
Plaguebearer standard - 25

Total: 3224

Thoughts:
-This was a very dramatic game. Daemons are still as tough an opponent as I remember
-I was helped very early on the Winds of Magic result which knocked Wounds from several Daemon units, including the Great Unclean One. This was very strong, since the Daemons had done a very fine job making use of terrain to offset my strong shooting.
-The real tipping point came when the Daemons didn't Dispel Fiery Convocation, which cost them the Bloodletters, which could have made all the difference against the Lions. However, this was counterbalanced by my poor choice in reforming the Silver Helms, so perhaps these two errors balance each other out.
-It's important that I don't overestimate the staying power of Phoenix Guard. They can hold up to a lot, but 4++ saves can be unreliable. Phoenix Guard vs Plaguebearers is a very comparable fight, but the Phoenix Guard were soundly beaten twice. I'll need to give more thought to how they can be better supported in the future.
-The Lions were simply excellent, but I really think they need that Shield of Saphery to make them viable. Otherwise, Toughness 3 just crumbles too quickly, as we saw once the Archmage was dead.
-That Prince! What a star. His consistent damage (5 Attacks @ Strength 6, hitting almost everything on 2s, re-rolling 1s) is exactly the kind of grinding, attrition-oriented fighter that High Elves sorely miss. The Sword of Ages will go down as one of my favorite Magic Items of all time, and the final points of this game were netted firmly by his hand.
-Of the games I've played thus far, this was undoubtedly the game where my shooting underperformed the most. Part of that was simple dice, but the Daemons were also highly durable, and did a wonderful job reading my deployment and preventing me from focusing down the targets I didn't want to face in melee. I'll have to be careful of this next time.
-For trimming the list down to 2500, I really like the trio of Helms + Characters, Lions + Archmage, Phoenix Guard, all backed with shooting. I think I can lose 500 points by reducing the size of the Helms and Archers, some of the Sisters, the size of the Phoenix Guard, and dropping the bolt throwers completely. I'll have to see if losing the bolt throwers is a liability. It's great to be able to reach out at extreme ranges and apply pressure, since it allows you to completely sit in a corner against an opponent no shooting. It's really nice to have that option. Outranging your opponents is possibly the single greatest advantage you can have in a Shooty vs Shooty matchup. I'll need to think on this.

Thanks for reading.

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

#494 Post by SpellArcher »

Tethlis wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:27 pm
Hi All. It's been many, many years since I posted a battle report.
Nice to see another, Tethlis!

I find the combination of PG and Lions interesting because that worked quite well in 8th, though I'm not sure about adding the powerful Helms. Overall though it looks like a nicely balanced list, squeezing quite a lot out of a single caster and bringing enough shooting to command the enemy's respect. The GUO still seems to be pretty strong in WAP, as do the Skullcannon? Plaguebearers seem solid in every version of Warhammer, would have been interesting to see how a near-full strength Bloodletter unit would have performed in combat.

Daemon deployment looks reasonable and I take the point about using the terrain against your shooting. The immediate thing that occurred to me (as a High Elf and Daemon player in 8th) was the separation of the GUO and Beasts, my gut feeling is they belong together. I liked your deployment, shooting on one flank and the other advancing for combat usually works pretty well. I guess the only issue might be the PG being out of BSB range?

How good is Reign of Chaos in WAP? It can hurt the Daemon player in 8th (as in my recent game vs Seredain) but is generally a slight asset. Your opponent's moves in Turn 2 make sense, he's playing your charge arcs it seems. Convocation is such a good spell. In my recent game I left my Plaguebearers to their fate because I needed to blow a Phoenix away and that didn't come off. Can be a very difficult decision. A Helm bus can break through Beasts in one round, even in 8th but the dice have to be kind I think.
Tethlis wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:27 pm
For magic, both the Level 1 Herald and GUO puke on my infantry
That's just rude! I was a bit surprised at the poor performance of the PG. I'm guessing it was a combination of no ASF and no BSB re-rolls. If you've got a Helm bus running down a flank, you can usually count on the mounted BSB's re-roll to help a supporting elite infantry unit out. A second such unit is likely to be out of range though and I wonder whether all three units can work well together or not. Might it have been an idea to switch the deployment of the PG and Lions, given that the latter are Stubborn and hence presumably more reliable if isolated? Also, what a bloodbath this game was.

Congratulations!

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

#495 Post by Tethlis »

Thanks for the comments, SpellArchers. I can definitely imagine it's an interesting game for you, given the armies you've played.

-PG and Lions definitely seem to pair well, as long as the Lions get some durability from Shield of Saphery. The wall of 4+ Saves is significant. Lions get some very nice utility too... In addition to their always-useful Stubborn, the fact that they can Killing Blow monstrous infantry, beasts and cav is a nice deterrent versus quite a lot of different unit types (though regular-full fledged monsters still stomp the hell out of them.) Being able to catch the enemy on such a durable battle line, and allow the Helms to come in and clean up, seems to work well. I'll be curious to see if I can adapt it for 2500 points.

-The GUO's still no joke. IIRC, 7 Wounds, Toughness 7, 6 Attacks, access to re-roll Hits and Wounds in every round of combat, and a weapon that gives D3 Wounds makes him a good all-around combatant and and (in particular) character and monster hunter. Lore of Nurgle's combination of defensive Augments and Toughness-based direct damage are basically a nightmare combo for Elves, who hate tough enemies almost as much as they hate Toughness tests.

-Reign of Chaos is definitely all over the place... Low results = bad, high results = good, a result of 7 means nothing happens. The double 1s my opponent rolled for Reign of Chaos early in the game was massive, since it meant most Daemon units ended up losing some Wounds early on.

-The BSB coverage for both the Daemons and High Elves was definitely a result of being out-of-practice! I know the Plague Beasts would have loved the general's Leadership and a re-roll, just like the Phoenix Guard would have loved it as well. The PG vs Plaguebearer unit was almost perfectly matched, the Daemons just made more 4++ than the PG did. That's pretty much all there was to it. The attack output and damage was basically identical, with the PG on 3+, re-roll 1s, 4+ to Wound vs the Daemons 4+ to Hit, 2+ to Wound.

-I agree too that swapping the PG and Lions would have been better here. I'll try to use the Lions to anchor my flank in the future. They don't care too much if they catch an enemy in the flank.

-Skullcannon grapeshot... Pretty nasty. Artillery Dice + D6 worth of Strength 5, Armor piercing shots, and Bloodletters are Ballistic Skill 5. I didn't think of it at all, until the Daemons had an "Ah Ha!" moment and started blasting me.

The next step will be figuring out if I'm generally happy with this comp, or need to make adjustments. Is 1 caster enough? is High Magic the way to go, for the sake of Shield of Saphery? Am I okay not including any monsters, given how good the Frost Phoenix is? All options to consider.

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

#496 Post by DrSlam »

Hi Tethlis,

I'm a long time fan of your battle reports so I'm glad you're active again.

I don't have much to query re your latest report. Just wondering why you went with WAP rather than say 8th or the ever popular 6th - just a product of who you can get games with? Or was there something about WAP that drew you to it?

Thanks
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

#497 Post by Tethlis »

DrSlam wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:48 am
Hi Tethlis,

I'm a long time fan of your battle reports so I'm glad you're active again.

I don't have much to query re your latest report. Just wondering why you went with WAP rather than say 8th or the ever popular 6th - just a product of who you can get games with? Or was there something about WAP that drew you to it?

Thanks
Hey DrSlam. Thanks for taking the time to read, and that's a great topic. I was drawn to the fact that WAP seems like a very coherent, active community. It has regular balance updates, an active Discord server, etc and still manages to be very polished and well edited for a fan-made system. It feels like lot like a natural continuation of the game from where GW left it, dealing with some of 8th edition's balance problems, and also incorporating some of End Time's best rules ideas, while discarding the ones I didn't like.

6th edition, for me, was a very MSU-focused meta. Nothing wrong with that, but I felt like it didn't emphasize regimental combat in the way that later editions did. There are a lot of good tabletop systems out there that I've been playing for the last 5-10 years, and some really excellent skirmish-themed games, so I feel like I already have my fill of small-unit action. I wanted my return to WHFB to feel like something very different from other systems I've been playing. Besides, my existing miniature collection is more compatible with WAP and 8th than it is with 7th, so that definitely helps me jump back into the action without a ton of repurchasing, new hobby projects, etc.

Great question.

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

#498 Post by SpellArcher »

Tethlis wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:12 pm
The wall of 4+ Saves is significant.
Really solid and crucially this seems to combine with a S6 in the first round and S5 thereafter, if I'm understanding correctly?
Tethlis wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:12 pm
Killing Blow monstrous infantry, beasts and cav
That is tremendous. With Stubborn too I'm liking the sound of Lions a lot.

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

#499 Post by Tethlis »

Oh yeah let me give a quick summary of units in WAP, to help give some background:

-Great weapons are +2 Strength in first round, +1 Strength in second round, and -2 to Initiative (not Always Strikes Last.)
-All Elves have a 6++ in close combat, which combines with other Ward Saves, to a maximum of 4++. High Elves re-roll 1s to Hit in Close Combat.
-Fear only gives +1 to Combat Resolution, kind of like having a Warbanner.
-All Elven bows now fire 2x multiple shots if the unit was Stationary, and have Armor Piercing.


Phoenix Guard:
-PG are fairly self-sufficient, but means they don't benefit with much in the way of synergies. Their rules and profile are pretty much unchanged from 8th. I think they will likely get +1 Attack base soon, for a slight point increase, to help make them more appealing. They're a Rare choice, which is tough to stomach.

Swordmasters:
-In addition to 6++ in melee, they have a 6++ versus missile attacks. This, thematically, makes them very strong with stacking Shield of Saphery. They also have the rule "Swordmaster" which means they ignore the Initiative penalty for Great Weapons. My big concern with them is that they're only Strength 4 after the first round of Combat.

White Lions:
-These probably changed the most. On the charge, they confer Always Strikes last to the enemy. Enemies with Always Strikes Last have to re-roll to Hit if their attackers have higher initiative than they do, so this is a powerful defensive tool for White Lions. Also, if they Hold as a charge, their Ward Save goes from 6++ to 5++. Lastly, they have Heroic Killing Blow against Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Cavalry. Combined with their natural Stubborn, they have good staying power.

Of the above three, Lions stood out the most to me, coupled with an Archmage for Shield of Saphery. This unit has performed very well. Phoenix Guard I'm less certain about, but I still like them as a second regiment over Swordmasters. Swordmasters seem more exceptional to me, but I can't really split Shield of Saphery between two units, very effectively, so I kind of have to pick either Swordmasters or Lions as the chief recipient of that Ward Save.

Sisters of Avelorn are the other big standout unit. 2x Strength 4, Armor Piercing shots that hit out to 24 inches on 3+ is brutal. Absolutely brutal, though Sisters are 18 points a model and very vulnerable!

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog, back after 9 years

#500 Post by Sturen »

I get the feeling WAP brings a little bit of every old 8th edition player's wishlist to every army book! I agree the WLs seem to get the best deal: strong defence and killing blow for monsters. Perhaps I need to start dropping some hints that we can upgrade from 7th in my local store...
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