The Coven of Light Revisited

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Brewmaster_D
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The Coven of Light Revisited

#1 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Long time, no see gentlemen!

Been a crazy busy year for me, however the inevitability of my nerd side always wins. always.

So, new book and tons of new possibilities. I've been keeping an eye on things, and have finally had time to try a game or two using the new troops. Unfortunately for me, they've really done a number on my old build. The megalomaniac in me wants to believe that Ward did it just to spite me specifically, but that would just be crazy talk, right? ... right???

Regardless, I couldn't help but revisit the old theme. In particular, after my uncontrollable sobbing subsided, I noticed a few things in our new list that could potentially make for some interesting combinations. Might as well jump right in to it:

The List (2500 points)

Alarielle the Radient

Mage (Lore of Light)
- Level 2
- Ring of Fury
- Power Stone

Mage (Lore of Light)
- Dispel Scroll

BSB Noble
- Dragon Armour, Great Weapon
- Banner of Averlorn

33 x Spearmen
- Standard, Musician, Champion
- Gleaming Pennant

18 x Archers
- Musician

5 x Ellyrian Reavers
- Musician

30 x White Lions
- Standard, Musician, Champion
- Banner of the World Dragon

13 x Swordmasters
- Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame

5 x Dragon Princes

5 x Sisters of Averlorn
- High Sister

2 x Repeater Bolt Throwers
2 x Great Eagles

I know, right? No Teclis for double banishments? How can the coven function without two banishments? I'll refer you guys back to an article I wrote back in my old blog The Lore of Light and You. In it, I attempt to argue one main point - the lore of light is a versatile lore, capable of creating magic phase threat in every turn of the game. The coven of light was never about focusing exclusively on S7 banishment. Rather, when I was playing it, I merely viewed it as a tool in my toolbox for creating threat.

So the question, then, is can a similar level of magic phase threat be created with our current book? Obviously we have nothing on a similar power level as D3+1 power dice, however it isn't all bleak.

Alarielle is a very interesting special character in my opinion. She offers several advantages:

1. She gives the army access to the banner of avelorn. I had to do a double take when I read this item. +4 to cast when a spell targets the unit it's in? All the research I've done has led me to the conclusion that an augment that's been boosted to effect all units in a radius still triggers this effect, so let's see; I can now cast a Bubbled Timewarp on a 20+ effectively? Or a boosted Pha's for effectively 8+? Sign me up! This adds a level of consistency to the magic phase that I would have killed for with my previous list, in addition to causing my opponent to have to use more dispel dice per spell on average, giving me a comparative advantage in power dice to dispel dice, somewhat reproducing the effect the banner + jewel previously achieved.

2. She still cast banishment twice in one turn, on one turn of the game. In all my time playing the coven of light, I can tell you definitively that the most important turns for double banishment were turns one and two. She's not limited, however, to double banishment - the stave of avelorne is a flexible item that can be tailored to the situation at hand. White lions make it to combat? How does double timewarp sound? Additionally, since ASL from great weapons and ASF cancel each other out, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Timewarp re-instate our great weapon wielding troops to their former, rerolling glory?

3. She buffs our troops. 5+ ward save vs mundane and magical attacks for her unit? Yowza.

4. Finally, and most importantly I feel, she opens up some crazy new strategic options with her ability to split her spells up among 3 lores before spells are rolled. Does the army need the heavy light support? Or would High or Life be a better choice in this matchup? The flexibility is insane, and allows you to cater your list on a per opponent basis.

Oh yeah, and she heals the other characters, as if that all wasn't enough.

Moving on to the list, obviously the cornerstone of the list is the unit of white lions - Banner of the World Dragon is just too juicy to pass up now - it completely circumvents the weakness in Alarielle's mundane ward. So the unit effectively has at worst a 3+/5++ vs shooting, with the possibility of it increasing with some of the various high magic the list has access to.

Swordmasters fill their old function as hammers, and the dragon princes fill the role of mobile threat.

Due to the (admittedly) diminished power of our magic phase, I toned down the strength of banishment to 6 - still enough to threaten the various monsters out there, but not an over investment in the phase, in my opinion. They also stole my flaming archers, so I put in a few sisters and added a couple repeaters to make up for the comparative lack of power from the banishments.

As of yet, this list is completely untested. However, just as the last list was very much honed by the community here, I figured I just throw this idea out there and see what bounces back.

Some things I'm not sold on yet:

- Spearmen in core. Perhaps more reavers would be better for disruption, or more archers for a stronger shooting phase? Been down this road before...
- Dragon Princes / Sisters of Averlorn as special choices. Would I benefit more from another unit of swordmasters or lions and a bolt thrower? Or perhaps a bigger investment in the sisters?

Anyway, thanks in advance for your input

D
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Nicene
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#2 Post by Nicene »

Great to hear you're going to give the coven a shot! I loved reading your reports. There are definitely some advantages in the new book to counteract some of the things we lost. Mages and archmages got cheaper, which is certainly nice.


A couple rules points that you brought up:

1. Yes, the bubble spells definitely benefit from the casting bonus.

2. The rerolls from timewarp... there are threads discussing this on Ulthuan but I think a pretty strong consensus feels that adding more ASF from Timewarp won't grant rerolls to your Lions. Still Timewarp is obviously a powerful choice!


A few other questions:

1. Is 30 a good number for your White Lions now?

2. You mentioned that you're not sure about the spearmen. Would you consider merging them into an Archer Horde? I think archers are a great choice now in the new book (cheaper, fire and fight in 3 ranks) and a horde could double as a firing base or a mid-game anvil 5-wide.

Maybe something like 35 archers + 10 archers?
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Avicii
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#3 Post by Avicii »

Hey D great to have you back! I myself have been devastated by the lose of our beloved Coven. Since the new book was released I spent sometime looking over the book to see if I could build a Coven to my liking. I'm glad you have stuck by it with pride and I look forward to once again seeing this list grow. Just to follow up on your points:

Alarielle is a great base for your magic phase along side the two banners. Her spells will be extremely hard to stop and a great option for double banishment. We could call her our small light at the end of the tunnel :wink:

I have to agree with Nicene on the ruling of timewarp FAQ reads as is:
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to “[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of the first paragraph.

An option for your core could be to drop your Spears and replace with more reavers and/or silver helms. Having more reavers will allow you to drop the great eagles spending those points on more specials and rare?

Also keep forbidden rod in mind for a PD boost as magic items inflict MAGICAL HITS :D

I know this list is new and untested so at this point only games will really help with the evolution of the list I guess. After my tournament this coming weekend with the Cav bus I may just have to give this style Coven a go.

Avicii
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Curu Olannon
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#4 Post by Curu Olannon »

Great to see you back mate, thought we had lost you for good :) I haven`t even read your post, just excited to see you onboard again! Anyways, did you see Sweden`s list for ETC this year? They took advantage of the fact that the Loremaster knows spells from Lore of Light, quite original! I imagine in an uncomped environment you can still get away with Forbidden Rod (with BOTWD) for a truly nasty magic phase! Now, for the rest of your post...
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#5 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Fellas! Thanks for the warm welcome back.

@ Nicene - I had quite a bit of success with the horde of lions in the previous list, but using them in the new edition presented me exactly the question you posed. As far as I see it, the unit will fill roughly the same role as before - namely both a hammer and anvil unit. The lions dropped in points, but also dropped in their combat reliability and potency without their rerolls. As such I saw two options: swallow the loss in effectiveness and pocket the savings in points, or beef up the unit now that they get a bonus rank of attacks. The addition of alarielle and the Banner of the World Dragon to the list, however, significantly boosts their hardiness, giving them at minimum a 5++ ward save over the last edition. My instinct tells me this will be enough to offset the loss in combat effectiveness, prompting me to leave the unit at 30.

I'm not, however, married to the idea. If I find they simply don't pack near the punch that they used to, I won't hesitate to shuffle things around in order to beef the unit up.

Regarding the spearmen - In my old list I played plenty of games with both the spearmen and the archer horde. There were advantages and disadvantages to both, however I see a shift in my magic phase towards combat buff focus and protection. If this is indeed the case, the spearmen stand to profit as a cheap steadfast breaker with more defensibility.

Again, though, if I find that the list doesn't pose enough ranged threat to force the enemy's approach, I'll drop them for archers in a heartbeat (Just don't tell them that for now)

@ Avicii - The silver helm core is indeed interesting - Curu even referred me to a competitive list that was played recently that included them as core, and also included a small coven. I'd like to play one game with the spears, but I'll certainly give it some thought during the game.

I'm hesitant to drop the eagles, simply because they'd done *so* much for me in the past, and I haven't got near the experience playing with reavers. Certainly something to think about as well, as it's an interesting way to squeeze more out of our awesome special and rare choices.

The forbidden rod causes magical hits??? Sign me up immediately. The wounds are almost negligible due to alarielle's ability to outright recover them the next turn. This could be exactly the contingency plan the list needs to deal with those pesky 6 & 1 magic phases that crop up all too often.

@ Curu Hey man, glad to be back! Definitely checking out the battle reports of that list as we speak. Lots of similarities and lots of differences, so for sure some food for thought.


I think I've managed to line up a battle vs. Ogres for this week, so hopefully I'll be able to give the list a trial run and pop a report up.

*shudders at the thought of the hellheart* *remembers banner of the world dragon now protects his coven*

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
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Avicii
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#6 Post by Avicii »

I also found it hard to replace my eagles with reavers especially sacrificing 80-95 points on redirecting with the reavers. However I have found the reavers great at clearing chaff and much survivable when simply roaming the field. I have also been using the Congo line to great affect redirecting more than one unit at a time.

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

^^this works greatly in your favour and will make your Coven super well defended. I like the idea of the lore master in a coven as well as ice shard basically adds an additional Pha's :wink:
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pk-ng
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#7 Post by pk-ng »

Hey D!
Good to see you back! Loved your old BRs before!
I'm not sold on the Spearmen as well but maybe they'll work for you? I've yet to see how spearmen can be used in a competitive list. :(
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#8 Post by Brewmaster_D »

The 8th Edition Inaugural Coven of Light Battle

Hey Guys!

Thanks again for all of your suggestions regarding the list. I'm definitely planning to switch up certain elements, but I wanted to play one game in order to assess where I landed on the power scale with my initial list. With that in mind, I opted to play the list exactly as it stands at the top of this thread. My opponent was playing Ogre Kingdoms, and I was really looking forward to the match.

Ogre Kingdoms

Slaughtermaster - Level 4, Fencer's Blades, Talisman of Protection, Lore of the Maw
Butcher - Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Heavens
Bruiser - Armour of Destiny, Great Weapon

10 x Ironguts, Full Command, Standard of Discipline
6 x Ogres, Bellower, Ironfists
6 x Ogres, Bellower, Ironfists

3 x Mournfang Cavalry, Ironfists, Heavy Armour, Bellower, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
4 x Leadbelchers, Bellower

3 x Individual Sabretusks

Ironblaster

Stonehorn

He finished deploying first and rolled for his spells: Bullgorger, Toothcracker, Braingobbler and The Maw on the Slaughtermaster, and Iceshard Blizzard and Curse of the Midnight Wind on his Butcher

I rolled the level 1 first, but rolled pha's (which I wanted in more powerful hands), so I took shem's with him. The level 2 rolled Pha's Protection and Light of Battle, both of which were kept, followed by 3 on the lore of light and one on high from Alarielle, giving her Speed of Light, Timewarp and Banishment, as well as Drain Magic. I opted to take Drain magic due to the sheer number of augments and hexes he had access to.

Deployment

Image

Ogres have plenty of their own chaff to befuddle the deployment phase, but luckily this list has even more low point drops than I've ever had: 2 eagles, reavers, Bolt Throwers, Sisters, Archers and Dragon Princes. I was able to bait out the irongut unit with my spears, and subsequently refused the left flank. I liked the lions' matchup with the stonehorns and the mournfangs, but hated the idea of facing that unit of guts head on.

Ogres Turn 1

Image

After winning the dice roll to go first (RIP skeinsliver D:), the Ogres advance full tilt towards my line. Two sabretusks immediately threatened my left Repeater Bolt Thrower, and the stonehorn was menacingly close.

Magic was 5 & 3, with the ogres and the elves channeling one. He starts off with an iceshard blizzard on my archers on 2D6, which I dispel with 2. A 2D6 harmonic convergence on the leadbelchers fails (thankfully). He drops a 4D6 maw on the spearmen, which I dispel with 4 and finally he puts a D6 toothcracker on the mournfangs.

Leadbelchers score a tremendous number of hits on the Dragon Princes and take three of them out after armour saves. Cannon hits one of my bolt throwers but fails to wound. What are the odds, right? (oh right, 20% lol)

High Elves Turn 1

Image

The reavers hustle around to the ogre backfield, hoping to find a flank or rear charge on the ironblaster, since the combat resolution combined with the beast's inability to fight when flanked puts the battle heavily in their favour regardless of wounds. My weakened unit of Dragon Princes shifts gears into diversion mode, hoping to abuse the frenzy on the stonehorn. The eagle lands beside it, boxing it in and avoiding any sort of overrun shenanigans by maximizing far to the one side. Wouldn't be the first time somebody has tried that kind of thing :P

For magic I roll 3 & 3, but the Ogres manage to channel again, making it 6 v 4. I start with a D6 at the ring of fury on his sabretusk, which he allows. This is enough to slay the beast. I follow that up with a 3D6 Banishment at the stonehorn, which he dispels with 4. Finally, I use 2D6 to timewarp the lions, which he scrolls to avoid a hail mary charge in the next turn. Both Repeaters launch a volley at a sabretusk on the left flank, with both managing two wounds. Finally, the archers put two wounds on the left most unit of Ogres.

Ogres Turn 2

Image

The Stonehorn fails it's 5+ leadership test for frenzy, so must charge my dragon princes. The ironguts also charge the spears, but roll a snakeyes (was about a 14-15" charge) and stumble forward and inch.

Knowing the stonehorn will have to overrun due to frenzy, the Mournfangs move up to stop it from moving into a vulnerable position.

Magic is 5 & 4 for the Ogres, with the elves channeling 2: 9 v 7. He starts with an iceshard on 2D6 on the archers. I let this one go through. He puts a 2D6 harmonic convergence on the leadbelchers, which I dispel with 3. Finally, he casts a 5D6 maw on the Spearelves, which I manage to tie with my own 5D6.

Cannon shoots at the great eagle, but it falls short and the leadbelchers roll less spectacularly, only managing a wound on it.

Naturally, the stonehorn obliterates the Dragon Princes.

High Elves Turn 2

Image

I know I have a relatively safe charge with the lions on the stonehorn - I'd need a roll of 5 to make the charge, and in the event of a failed charge, I still had a nearby eagle to redirect if need be. This isn't necessary, as it turned out, since the lions make their charge. The western eagle moves up to redirect the gutstar and protect the flank of the spear unit, which I shove in the face of the butcher's unit. Finally, the archers move up to block a wheel from the remaining unit of ogres, preventing a potential rear charge on the spears. Since the lions made their charge, I took the opportunity to use the eagle to redirect a potential counter charge from the ironblaster on the lion's flank, should they take out the stonehorn and reform to face the bulk of the Ogre force.

Magic is 6 & 3, with the ogres once again managing to channel. I start with a bubbled speed of light, which I miscast. Luckily, I roll an 8 on the miscast table and only lose one power dice, however one wound manages to slip past the banner on my level 1 mage. I attempt a 3D6 bubbled pha's protection, rolling a natural 13, making my cast value 19 (level 2 + 4 from the banner). He doesn't risk having unhittable elves and rolls 5 of his dispel dice. I then use my power stone + 1D6 on what I considered the most important spell of the phase - light of battle on the unit of spears. He attempts to dispel with 2, but fails. Finally, I attempt to Drain Magic on my archers to remove iceshard, but roll a 1 and fail the cast.

Repeaters use their single bolts on the mournfangs, with only one hitting and managing 2 wounds. Archers manage 1 wound on the unit of ogres after moving and shooting through a blizzard.

The lions manage the 6 wounds to take down the stonehorn and overrun into the flank of the mournfangs.



Ogres Turn 3


Image

Enraged by the death of their Stonehorn (that was supposed to be *their* dinner later!), the ogres charge into combat.

Magic is 2 & 1 with no channels - He attempts a 3D6 Harmonic Convergence on his bulls, but I actually manage to dispel it with my two

His leadbelchers shoot my swordmasters, but hard cover and their newfound ability to swat bullets out of the air leads to only one casualty.

In combat, the archers get decimated and the remaining 6 flee. His cannon pulverizes the eagle but fails its leadership test to restrain and it overruns into a precarious position. The spearmen move at the speed of light to defend themselves, but it turns out it's still tough to dodge a bunch of fat guts - They lose combat decisively but thanks to light of battle they stay put. Once again, the white lions put out enough wounds to outright destroy the remaining mournfangs and they reform to face the now vulnerable ironblaster.

High Elves Turn 3

Image

The reavers, now relieved of their cannon chasing duties, move to redirect the gutstar once again, and the swordmasters charge into the flank of the ogres.

Magic is 5 & 4, with me leading off with a bubbled pha's protection on 3D6 - I roll a 9, making my total 15. Not seeing much point in sitting on one dispel dice, he throws his 5 at it to be sure to be rid of it. I then put out a 3D6 bubbled speed of light, rolling a 13 and ending up with a cast of 21 on three dice. He has no dispel dice left though, so I have to celebrate silently to myself. Finally, I attempt a 3D6 timewarp on my swordmasters, but fail to meet the casting value by rolling 1, 1, 2.

In combat the spears and swordmasters put out enough wounds that only the butcher and an ogre remain. They break from combat and get run down by the swordmasters. The spearelves hold and reposition to face the gut star.

I messed up this picture a bit - the lions end this turn by killing the ironblaster and overrunning into the leadbelchers. However, seeing a combo charge on his gut star imminent, he forfeits the match.


After battle thoughts

I love having reavers core. There, I said it. Having so many low point, low commitment drops affords so many deployment possiblities, which is necessary in a list like this. It would have been difficult going up against those guts, regardless of the light magic buffs, so avoiding it was the best possibility.

The magic phase was a ton of fun, regardless of me forgetting to use Alarielle's ability to double cast once. Having a +8 to cast on buffs is insane. A single target timewarp on the lions only requires a roll of 4 if Alarielle knows the spell! What an insanely powerful way to end a magic phase with only a single dice remaining.

The spears did what I expected them to, but I can't help but agree with many of the sentiments here - what they did wasn't anything a unit of archers similarly sized couldn't have done. This may be my first tweak to the list.

Other changes I'm considering, in no particular order: Forbidden rod, Frostheart and potentially upping the number of reavers for more redirection.

The ogre list definitely wasn't the hardest list they could put out, however I think it was a good army to test out the list and get my feet wet with it.

Overall approval rating: Satisfied, but I can do better.

As always, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

D

PS. I don't have access at the moment to my home computer to photoshop in the cool effects, but I swear I will on the next one!
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RE.Lee
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#9 Post by RE.Lee »

Thanks for charing the report - it was a very good read. Looks like the Coven is back with a blast :)
cheers, Lee

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Nicene
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#10 Post by Nicene »

Wow those lions wrecked house!

Math says that the loss of rerolls leaves our elites dealing 67% - 75% as much damage per attack, so you might think to take more models to reach the same damage output (from 450 points of lions to 520, for example). However, the 30 lions definitely worked this time! Improved survivability from the banner, as well as Lore of Light, ensures that the unit arrives in combat in good health. 30 Lions is still a force to be reckoned with.

It seems like everything went just perfectly for you in this game. Then again, they say that 90% of luck is skill! Particularly great job with your redirecting this game (DPs were the MVP of this game, I'd say).
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Seredain
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#11 Post by Seredain »

Thanks for the great report Brewmaster - and well played.

I'm curious to see how this list adapts to the seismic shifts that the new book sneaks up on you. I won't say anything about the spearelves - I'll leave you to make your own sadly inevitable conclusions (I went the same way... and it hurt, but life is better with a big unit of 10-point MP archers). I will raise the lions as an issue, though. What's the thinking behind fielding them 10-wide when you fight in 3 ranks anyway? I'm sure you've already noticed that, although the loss of re-rolls hurts their damage output, our exponentially improved access to defensive bonuses gives our elite infantry strengths in the grind that they didn't have before. They're still really good: but do you need 30 of them?
Last edited by Seredain on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#12 Post by Tetengo »

Awesome report Brewmaster, and it's good to have you back. Thinking about what Seredain said, I would imagine the Alarielle + BoA BSB means you have two relatively killable characters in your main combat unit. Deploying them wide means you have more chance of keeping these characters out of combat. Though exactly 10-wide perhaps isn't necessary due to martial prowess as Big S said.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#13 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

Thanks for the kind words!

Regarding the lions - I've been giving this some thought myself. On one hand, the wide frontage lets me hide the unit's squishier elements with a bit of planning, and the lions that get bumped from the front rank by all the characters still get their attacks from the fourth rank, upping the combat potential in the center of the unit (where most fighting will occur). However, losing any models quickly renders this point obsolete unless I increase the models in the unit, which I'm very hesitant to do.

Seredain, I'm in the middle of catching up on your thread, and you're right, I'm reaching many of the same conclusions. There just isn't anything that unit of spears does that a similarly sized unit of archers can't, with the fact that the archers are relevant from turn 1 on, as opposed to the spears. Add to that the fact that this list relies more on magic for defense than armour, and I fail to see why I wouldn't take the opportunity to have more shooting power on the board.

I totally agree though, what those lions lost in offensive ability, they gained immensely in the defense department - Dare I say in this setup they're actually... tough? 5+ AS, 3+ vs shooting, 5++ ward vs mundane with the ability to increase with high magic and a 2++ vs anything magical. Add on top of that the lore of light buffs potentially making them hard to hit and I almost think this is one of the grindiest units in the game. With this in mind, you guys may well be right, I could potentially drop the unit to 24 or even 21, and use the points to further increase my ranged potential. I see this list already being a nightmare for people overly invested in single model, high point cost units, one more bolt thrower might take it to the next level.

Thanks again for the input guys, I'm working on a couple revised lists that I'll post later today!

D
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#14 Post by Malossar »

I'd look at more Reavers in Core. Set up the double flees, conga line the crap out units to redirect while you can continue your magical and ranged barrage. It also gives those white lions the combat that they want to be in.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#15 Post by Seredain »

Spears do the same thing they always did: you put them into a cheap bus and march them up with something hitty to break steadfast. In a hyper-aggressive list, or with the Wayshard, I can see them working but for me, now that helms are taking up those core points and archers are both cheaper and better than they were, it's hard to turn them down as the ranked core infantry unit that can do everything you need.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#16 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Alrighty, thank you all again for your valuable input towards this list. I've made my first revision, and I'll try to provide my logic for each. First the list:

Coven of Light v.2.0


Alarielle the Radient, Everqueen of Ulthuan and all around boss

Mage, Level 2, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll (Lore of Light)

Mage, Forbidden Rod (Lore of Light)

Noble, BSB, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Banner of Avelorne

5 x Reavers, Musician
5 x Reavers, Musician
5 x Reavers, Bows, Musician

24 x Archers, Musician
10 x Archers

24 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
5 x Dragon Princes
14 x Swordmasters, Banner, Banner of Eternal Flame

5 x Sisters of Avelorne
5 x Sisters of Avelorne

3 x Repeater Bolt Throwers


A Shift In Core Focus

Biggest change here came with the core section. I'm still getting settled in this edition and adjusting to the concept of having effective redirectors available in core. Credit to Avicii here, who originally proposed the idea of switching out the eagles for more reavers, clearing more points in the special and rare slots for combat units/more shooting presence. Although the reavers don't have quite the versatility that the eagles do with regards to movement, I still believe I can harness them to provide the same role. One of the things that very much appeals to me about the reavers is the fact that they are significantly more resilient as a unit than the eagles. For example, one cannonball can end an eagle's day, whereas with some proper planning, they can only remove one of five wounds per reaver unit. With the increasing prevalence of cannons, I think this is a good choice. In fact, it makes this list virtually cannon proof; the only viable multi-wound targets are now the bolt throwers. Not too shabby!

Second, I dropped the spears. Sorry boys, but in a list like this, the archers just bring so much more to the table. Switching to archers was an easy choice in a list that is primarily defensive, however how many units and what size was a tough choice. I opted for one medium sized unit and one small in order to do two things; first, I wanted the extra drop for the advantage during deployment, and second, I wanted the ability to divide the fire between two targets in the first turn. I envision their role in turns 1 and 2 being removing chaff, which makes me favour being able to divide the fire if need be. I cringe at the idea of 34 archers shooting at one sabretusk and potentially wasting 3 or 4 wounds. Of course, the tradeoff is that the unit is less able to shift focus later into a combat unit. Thoughts?

Some White Lions get Chopped

Bahaha. *takes a moment to admire the pun*

I dropped the unit of White Lions to 24 - 8 Frontage is still wide enough for me to attempt to hide some characters on the edge, yet I save a heap of points in reducing the unit by 6. Time will tell if this is a good choice, but my hunch is that the unit is so grindy with the ward save and light magic that it doesn't need the extra bodies. What it lost in offensive ability, it gained in its ability to not surrender combat resolution via. wounds.

Upping the Firepower

Finally, in the rare slot, I fit in another unit of Sisters and another bolt thrower. When the sisters are needed to provide that wound, I definitely don't want them to fall short, and I feel that bumping them up to 10 shots total is a good idea.

With the new points cost, I feel that the repeaters are actually quite good value, and they really allow me to establish board control early. 3 shots with a single bolt also makes it very likely that I'll get 1-2 hits per turn, which is the kind of ranged reliability I'm after to make up for the loss of power in banishment.

I'll try to line up a game for this week, but in the meantime I'd love to hear your thoughts on the new list. Many of the suggestions from you guys helped shape the changes, so I'm very grateful.

D
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#17 Post by Grenic »

Good to see you back!

Just a few thoughts on your new list.

I’m not sure reducing the White Lion unit as far as you did is a good idea. A big advantage of the 30 model (horde) unit has over the 24 model (mini-horde) unit is that when you add characters to the horde unit you don’t lose the attack of the displaced White Lion model(s). With the Coven of Light lists, this means with the mini-horde formation you end up swapping 3 or 4 S6 attacks for the wizard's S3 ASF attacks. With the horde, the displaced White Lion models still get to attack.

For simplicity, lets consider a combat where one unit charges the other and where both contain the same 4 Coven of Light characters (one being the BSB and 3 wizards). Here the 24 model 8 wide unit would have 21 S6 attacks, 3 BSB attacks, and 3 S3 ASF attacks. The 30 model 10 wide unit on the other hand would have 31 S6 attacks, 3 BSB attacks, and 3 S3 ASF attacks. That’s a whopping 10 S6 attack advantage over the mini-horde formation. While its true that any ASF attacks from the mini-horde would reduce one S6 attack for every casualty scored (this would not the case for the horde's ASF attacks on the mini-horde) the advantage is still significantly tilted toward the horde formation.

I see the benefit of the horde unit over the mini-horde unit as being two fold, when it comes to the Coven of Light lists: (1) allows for easier isolation/separation of the wizards within the unit; and (2) the character set needed for the Coven doesn’t impact the horde unit’s number of S6 attacks the it can generate.

The cost difference between the mini-horde and horde formations is about 39 ss. The question then becomes, will the incremental bolt thrower or sister investment really offset the reduced combat prowess of the White Lion mini-horde? Assuming the incremental bolt thrower results in a minimum of 1 S6 hit every round, then possibly. As for the sisters, I’m not sure that this incremental unit will be able to generate the required payback. I would likely drop the incremental sister unit and increase the White Lion unit back to 30 models (29 if you can’t free up the other 4 ss).

The list is also short of banners. If you end up playing Blood and Glory, those Sword Masters will likely receive all of your opponent’s attention followed by a close combat character assignation of your BSB.

Also, I would look at swapping out the Ring of Fury for the Ironcurse Icon. This will free up points and gives the White Lions an automatic WS from war machines. Further, assuming you continue to take high/light on Alarielle, then this WS can be also enhanced.

Look forward to reading how your game goes.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#18 Post by Nicene »

What would it take to get bows on all your reavers?

What if you dropped 3 archers, added 10 bows to your reaver units, and merged the archers to 31? You'd still have the shooting versatility, more shots overall (and actually, due to cover/range, reaver shots are pretty good compared to archer shots, despite short range), and a larger steadfast breaker/whatever.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#19 Post by Avicii »

Hey again D, great you straight back into testing your list. Let me start by saying great win, I love how well you controlled your magic phases and it was great to see Alerialle in action.
I think your new list is also fairly similar to the way I would've written it. The inclusion of Forbidden rod will help for any snake eye magic phases the may want to ruin your day. your Core build looks more useful now and gave you the extra room for more rares which will clear paths for your hammers. My one Concern is the unprotected BSB but really what can you do because the Banner is too good not to take. I understand with Pha's and Speed you can make it super hard for your opponent to hit him and than you have the 5++ to hopefully walk off a couple of wounds. Alarielle looks great and makes the Coven even more Versatile and almost better than the 7th Ed Coven with her ability to split between High, light and Life giving you some great possibilities and variety which was Something I greatly over looked. I thank you for staying by the Coven and reinventing it because it was by far my favourite list from the 7th book. I will definitely head back to the light soon enough :)

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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#20 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

I would consider dropping the Dragon Princes out for a unit of 5 Silver Helms and using the points savings to rebuff the White Lion horde back up. You lose some attacks, but both are fast, heavily armored, and after the first round of combat are S3.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#21 Post by Findolfin »

Welcome back Brewmaster.

Very nice control of magic in that report. But aren't you worried to base your new list on a named character? She is indeed very nice but what happens when you are not allowed to use her?

Your reaver unit spent some round waiting for opportunities. As was mentionned before, maybe you should use spears and bows. This enable them to take care of some ennemy chaffs while they move to their targets and free up some of your heavier shooting at same time. With martial prowess, you can pretty much use any formation with them. I'd also never leave home without 2 units :P
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#22 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

Thanks again everyone for the thoughtful feedback. You've all definitely given me lots to think about. I've got a match tomorrow night vs. some Vampire Counts, and I'm excited to see how revised list fares.

I'll try to answer your thoughts in kind:

Hey Grenic! Thanks for the in depth post. Regarding the horde vs. mini horde (or so we shall thus call the 24 man unit of elites), I agree with you on the principle of mathematics alone. When it comes to pure damage potential, there is no question that the full horde holds the advantage, and you illustrated why very clearly. However, when I'm refining a list, I like to tweak units and test the results. In this case, my change is an attempt to see how small the unit of lions can go before it begins losing the functionality that I want. I find that it's one thing to crunch the numbers in warhammer, and another entirely to see how the change effects the way the unit performs when presented with all the many variables that are presented during a match.

Having said that, you raise a very good point regarding the sisters - no, I don't think the marginal benefit of the extra 5 sisters is worth the same number in lions. They'll likely be the first thing to go if I choose to bump the unit back up to 30.

The banners are a good thought - I haven't given scenarios much time (I'm only a handful of games into the new book). I'm definitely going to try to rework it to include a banner on the archers.

Finally, the ironcurse would be a bit redundant here, wouldn't it? Alarielle grants the unit a 5++ save vs. mundane attacks, and the banner gives 2++ vs magical.

Great thought on the bows on reavers Nicene. I'm definitely going to merge the unit of archers, particularly if I add a banner to the unit to address Grenic's concern over the scenario Blood and Glory. Adding bows to the reavers may be just the thing I need to quell my fears about clearing chaff.

Avicii, thanks for your vote of confidence! The jury is still out whether this can be a competitive build in this edition, but I really believe that the added utility Alarielle brings to a list like this helps to mitigate some of the tools we lost from the old list. Well... let's call a spade a spade, we lost almost all our tools haha!

My hope with the BSB is that between the 2++ ward vs magic (many characters), the 5++ (and potentially higher) from Alarielle and her ability to put wounds back on him should the opponent fail to kill him, that he manages to last most matches. However, time will tell once he starts getting in to some real combats. Question is, will the opponent focus him, or Alarielle? If she dies the banner dies anyway.

BGNLordHelmut, I'm a huge fan of that budget unit of knights. Dropping them down to silver helms does save me a few points, however I lose something that I feel is key to the functionality of that unit - they're actually a sizeable combat threat with 10 ASF S5 attacks on the charge. That difference can be the difference between the opponent ignoring them, or prioritizing them. They're something of "superchaff"! I just don't think the silver helms can put out that kind of pressure.

Hey Findolfin! I'm not too worried about the named character aspect - last edition Teclis was a menace and he saw sparing (at best) bans in my area. In fact, the scene I play in is largely uncomped.

I have little to no experience at this point running with reavers, so I'm definitely still finding the best configuration for them. In your experience, does paying the extra points for both spears and bows not make you apprehensive about sacrificing the unit as a redirector?


Thanks again for all the feedback guys. I'll try to get my next report up before this weekend, upon which time I'm away for work for a week.

D
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#23 Post by Jimmy »

Only just read this Brewmaster, firstly welcome back and thanks for taking the time with the report.

Very well played indeed.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#24 Post by Ferny »

Brewmaster_D wrote:Great thought on the bows on reavers Nicene. I'm definitely going to merge the unit of archers, particularly if I add a banner to the unit to address Grenic's concern over the scenario Blood and Glory. Adding bows to the reavers may be just the thing I need to quell my fears about clearing chaff.
I have little to no experience at this point running with reavers, so I'm definitely still finding the best configuration for them. In your experience, does paying the extra points for both spears and bows not make you apprehensive about sacrificing the unit as a redirector?
I wouldn't over-state the effectiveness of bows on reavers. It does increase their functionality to some extent in that they can shoot when they're not locked in combat, but it is only 5 (or 10) S3 shots hitting on 4s most likely, so even in terms of chaff clearing it is only one or two wounds max really. This might be enough for a panic test but unless they can S&S against most vanguardy type things I'd be more inclined to charge with S4 ASF and 'guarantee' getting the job done properly. Bows looks like a bargain compared to archers, and in terms of pinging off charmed shield it might be, but I don't see it doing much beyond that.

That said, there are a couple of threads discussing the merits/demerits of bows/spear/both on here which might be of interest.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#25 Post by elvishhealer »

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Alarielle the Radient

Mage (Lore of Light)
- Level 2
- Ring of Fury
- Power Stone

Mage (Lore of Light)
- Dispel Scroll

BSB Noble
- Dragon Armour, Great Weapon
- Banner of Averlorn

33 x Spearmen
- Standard, Musician, Champion
- Gleaming Pennant

18 x Archers
- Musician

5 x Ellyrian Reavers
- Musician

30 x White Lions
- Standard, Musician, Champion
- Banner of the World Dragon

13 x Swordmasters
- Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame

5 x Dragon Princes

5 x Sisters of Averlorn
- High Sister

2 x Repeater Bolt Throwers
2 x Great Eagles
You might want to put in something against fear and terror. You also have the possibility to field more archers instead of spearmen. reavers are expensive at 5 unless you combine them with your lores. 10 DPs and 10 SMs maybe. Using the HE stats in units of 5 is not as solid in comp. setting.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#26 Post by Stormie »

Hmm is there a way to avoid terror through? The whole unit needs to be ItP or fear-causing to avoid a terror/panic check so I think he'll just have to take it.

I'd also suggest dropping Ring of Fury. Although you did use it in your battle report, you have access to plenty of magic missiles anyway, and you can be 1-dice it with your level 2 Light with same effectiveness but increased difficulty to dispel.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#27 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys,

Kind of pressed for time this morning, but I just wanted to mention - in addition to providing the unit wide 5++ save vs. mundane and magical attacks, Alarielle also makes the unit immune to Fear and Terror.

I know, right? What doesn't this gal do?

D
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#28 Post by Sackree »

What armies are you most common opponents? I'm keen to place a bet on what she will heroic killing blow first
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#29 Post by Findolfin »

Brewmaster_D wrote:Hey Findolfin! I'm not too worried about the named character aspect - last edition Teclis was a menace and he saw sparing (at best) bans in my area. In fact, the scene I play in is largely uncomped.

I have little to no experience at this point running with reavers, so I'm definitely still finding the best configuration for them. In your experience, does paying the extra points for both spears and bows not make you apprehensive about sacrificing the unit as a redirector?
If you use them as redirectors, I feel they are overpriced eagles. I’d only use spears and not even a mu in that case. That is certainly the last use I have for them, not saying it won’t happen.

For B&S, it worth it if it enables you to cut on some archers or relieve archers from having to shoot at chaffs. Charging those chaffs is a better option but it’s rare you can do it without delaying critical turns to get to their main target aka war machines. Myself, I want my reavers behind enemy lines as fast as possible and shoot whatever is in the way before I set the worthwhile charges. I also try to use them in tandem, as they can assist each other. 1 unit is probably not enough but 2 reavers unit have good chances to take a chaff unit out. Also gives the option to do a double flee, but admittedly I only ever pulled that off once.

Is it worth it, up to you to decide. Guess it depends what you have in mind, pros and cons as was mentioned. One more thing, while there is no tangible explanation, and all facts points to 5-10 s3 shooting in your back lines have a low impact, it does seems to mess some opponents target prioritisation.
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Re: The Coven of Light Revisited

#30 Post by Domine Nox »

Brewmaster_D wrote:Hey Guys,

Kind of pressed for time this morning, but I just wanted to mention - in addition to providing the unit wide 5++ save vs. mundane and magical attacks, Alarielle also makes the unit immune to Fear and Terror.

I know, right? What doesn't this gal do?

D
Don't forget she ALSO gives the whole unit Magical Attacks. Might as well get all her pips in there. :mrgreen:
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