2000 points vs. Lizardmen, hordes of elite infantry

[Scalenex1]

So unforunately I have over two weeks till my next game as HE. Swapping my LM with my friend's HEs.

I have yet to try a horde formation in 8th ed. As a usual LM player, I felt that Saurus in horde formation would be too unwieldy and skinks in horde formation too wimpy. So I plan to try hordes out with my next HE army swap. I had bad luck with rolling PG ward saves my first attempt fielding them but I can't let that stop me from using them forever. Also I like the idea I read of giving them a Razor Standard for more hitting power and you get more bang for your buck fielding a magic standard in a comparatively large unit.

Against LM, I fear Salamanders as the bane to very large blocks of elite infantry. 2000 points can't get you a lot of elite infantry and the cavalry and/or shadow warriors to put on anti-skirmisher duty. I'm thinking I'll break the horde motiff with Core. To get maximum use of a Horde with spearmen you need 50 which is a lot for a 2000 point game, so I'm thinking a normal sized unit of spearmen and a unit of archers or two. Hopefully the archers can take down any pesky salamanders or other skirmishers.

I got two very similar lists. I have yet to decide if I want to go no magic or not. I don’t know if my opponent will take a Slann or not. The only thing I’m expecting are for his list to surprise me.

List One
Prince, Dragon Armor, Helm of Fortune, Shield, Sword of Hoeth, Potion of Foolhardiness, Talisman of Protection
Noble, BSB, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone, Great Weapon

30 Spearmen with FC
2 x 10 Archers with musicians, standard bearers, and light armor

29 White Lions (BSB’s unit), FC, champion has Luckstone
30 Phoenix Guard (Prince’s unit), FC, Razor Standard

List Two
Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal, Talisman of Protection, have yet to decide on a Lore, leaning towards high magic
Noble, BSB, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone, Great Weapon

25 Spearmen with FC
10 Archers with light armor and FC (archmage’s bunker)
10 Archers with light armor musician and standard bearer

29 White Lions (BSB’s unit), FC
30 Phoenix Guard, FC, Razor Standard

So that's my list at the moment, nothing is sacrosanct, so give me your suggestions.

[SpellArcher]

I think the second idea is better. Even if your opponent turns up magic light, HE magic is too important to the army to pass up like this.

I'm not sure you can afford two elite Hordes at 2000pts. You could really do with a couple of eagles and your Core units are a little small. Not to mention you could probably do with a small unit of cavalry.

The Lion Horde already hits very hard, the BSB might be better off in another unit. Of course it's hard to kill but an opponent might well take one look at it and think 'that's got to go'.

[de kaasboer]

second list is better, just because of magic. you need magic with HE

i agree with SpellArcher that 2 blocks of elites are probably too expensive for 2k. but as fielding hordes seems to be you "main target" i would suggest:
-drop the razorstandard and all command except the musicians (they will win combat anyway. ok maybe keep the standard bearer on the PG)
- go for a minimum core setup with 2x 10 archers (with just musicians) and the rest in spearelfs with standard and muscian (so 30-ish)

i dont like the talisman of protection on the AM, so either go naked (i usually do) or give him guardian phoenix/robes for a better save

with the points spared (50 for razor, 36 for command, x from your core and maybe some item switches) you should be able to get some eagles, or a unit of 5 Dragon princes.

[Scalenex1]

I think the second idea is better. Even if your opponent turns up magic light, HE magic is too important to the army to pass up like this.

I'm not sure you can afford two elite Hordes at 2000pts. You could really do with a couple of eagles and your Core units are a little small. Not to mention you could probably do with a small unit of cavalry.

The Lion Horde already hits very hard, the BSB might be better off in another unit. Of course it's hard to kill but an opponent might well take one look at it and think 'that's got to go'.

Both of you guys suggest eagles. Eagles seem to be for hunting war machines and Lizardmen do not have war machines. Also they seem very vulnerable to the poisoned missile attacks the Lizardmen have lots of. Cavalry can be useful, though generally in past games I only managed to successfully use them when I got a tooled up hero in them.

[SpellArcher]

Eagles are primarily for dropping 1" in front of a key enemy unit at all angle to either paralyse it or force it to pursue at a stupid angle. They die but 50pts is worth it for the edge it gives your combat units in the movement phase. Of course they can do other things too.

[Avatar of the Eldar]

Hi, long time HE player, though very infrequently since 8th.

Just to affirm: Yes, 2 eagles for the reasons given. They buy your other units time to get the combat matches you want and not get tarpitted or ganged up on. You're right that you have to be thoughtful using them against LM with their poisoned skink AA batteries, but they're a must in an all-comers list and you should get used to using them. i.e. Learning how to get max value for their sacrifice.

I don't agree with adding a unit of cav. Not in 8th and definitely not at 2000. They just are so ineffective against large blocks. I'd rather have more elite bodies to survive the meat grinder.

In my last game, My unit of 21 White Lions ended the game with 2 models. Champ and Standard. It ate up a unit of 28 Bestigors with characters and because there are no half points for reduced units he got nothing. It's a lesson for HE players. Plan to loose most of our models but play to keep just a couple models in each unit by the end of the game.

I believe it's all about our Elite infantry. After you fill your min core, your Archmage + BSB kitted for survival and your 2 eagles, everything else goes into the elite bodies with enough left over for Banner of Sorcery to get full value of the LvL4.

[SpellArcher]

I believe it's all about our Elite infantry. After you fill your min core, your Archmage + BSB kitted for survival and your 2 eagles, everything else goes into the elite bodies with enough left over for Banner of Sorcery to get full value of the LvL4.

It's effective but it's not the only way to go IMHO.

Given that this is a Horde thread though...



Cavalry give a bit of mobility to get to things. Perhaps the Horde eats their points here.

[dabber]

What were you thinking with that Prince? The Sword of Hoeth is an absolutely awful weapon, because it cannot get past armour. A lizardmen character will save on a 2+ against you, and an ancient stegadon on a 4+. A great weapon does more damage and costs almost 50 total points less, and no magic item points at all.

[Scalenex1]

What were you thinking with that Prince? The Sword of Hoeth is an absolutely awful weapon, because it cannot get past armour. A lizardmen character will save on a 2+ against you, and an ancient stegadon on a 4+. A great weapon does more damage and costs almost 50 total points less, and no magic item points at all.

I guess I should piont out that said opponent doesn't go for tooled up fighty characters very often so I figued going against a 2+ AS is unlikely. He usually takes a wizard lord or goes as light on characters as possible. He also tends to avoid challenges. I figured a sword of Heoth would be good for slashing rank and file Saurus. Though I recognize the risk tihat if goes high AS heroes I'm in trouble, it's a calculated risk. As for Stegadons, I was figuring white lions could get the job done. After all I've been on the receiving end of WL vs. Steggy fights enough times to know how that works out. Though all that being said, a great weapon or sword of might woudl probably be better. I guess I'm addicted to being different.

[dabber]

I figured a sword of Heoth would be good for slashing rank and file Saurus.

Do the math. A great weapon is clearly superior for killing regular Saurus. A great weapon wounds on 2s and removes their entire armour save, for 0.83 wounds per attack. Sword of Hoeth wounds automatically and leaves them with a 5+ armour save, for 0.67 wounds per attack. Great weapon wins.

A Saurus hero with light armour and shield, and no magic items, has a 3+ armour save. For a lord it is 2+. Riding a cold one takes them to 1+. Again, NO magic items. Great weapon wounds the hero on 3s, leaves a 6+ save, averaging 0.56 wounds per attack. Hoeth wounds automatically but leaves 4+ save, averaging 0.5 wounds per attack. Great weapon wins.

[Scalenex1]

I figured a sword of Heoth would be good for slashing rank and file Saurus.

Do the math. A great weapon is clearly superior for killing regular Saurus. A great weapon wounds on 2s and removes their entire armour save, for 0.83 wounds per attack. Sword of Hoeth wounds automatically and leaves them with a 5+ armour save, for 0.67 wounds per attack. Great weapon wins.

A Saurus hero with light armour and shield, and no magic items, has a 3+ armour save. For a lord it is 2+. Riding a cold one takes them to 1+. Again, NO magic items. Great weapon wounds the hero on 3s, leaves a 6+ save, averaging 0.56 wounds per attack. Hoeth wounds automatically but leaves 4+ save, averaging 0.5 wounds per attack. Great weapon wins.

Great swords are better at killing things than most magic hand weapons. Hand weapons allow for use of shields though. That was my thinking process.