A proper SISTER STAR.

Discuss your tactics for the 8th Ed army book here.

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Drakova
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A proper SISTER STAR.

#1 Post by Drakova »

I know I'm being a little obnoxious posting my build everywhere but I wouldn't be so zealous if people actually gave it a try. It's well rounded with the ability to fight any army and it's unique. You can find the full build in the army section but in here I am going to go over how to use BS shooting to decimate just about ANY army.

Anything in blue is mandatory to the build. Anything in Pink is recommended if your taking the Sisters instead of just core archers. Anything in green is important to note.

Teclis 475
-Scroll of Hoeth
-Staff of Lileath
-Crown of Saphery
-Lore of Life: Flesh to Stone
-Lore of Light: Speed of Battle
-Lore of Death: Soulblight
-Lore of Fire: Flamming Sword of Ruin
-Lore of Heavens: Harmonic Convergence *This spell has an upgraded version which stacks with tons models who aren't going to be in the man unit to buff.*
-Lore of Shadow: Okkam's Mindrazor
-Lore of Beast: The Amber Spear *This is very useful as a baiting spell that enemies will feel obligated to stop, and rightfully so*
-Lore of Metal: Enchanted Blades of Aiban


Noble (Stryfe) 153 *Do not put this guy in any unit your buffing, you will wanna use his Reaver Bow for different targets such as fast cavalry or pop the potion and finish off a chariot*
-battle standard bearer
-heavy armor * This gear really makes him flexible as to where he goes because he can often times needs not even be in a unit*
-lion cloak
-Charmed Shield

-Potion of Strength
-Reaver Bow

Mage (Pepsii) 135
-level 1 fire mage *firecloak and fireball are great spells, but shadow/metal/fire/beast are all decent here*
-Forbidden Rod
-Ironcurse Icon
-Golden Crown *This item makes it so he does not HAVE to go in with the whatever unit is sporting BotWD, as he will live most of the time.

HandMaiden (Danielle) 120
-light armor

-spear
-Shield of Merwym
-Cloak of Beards

CORE 630 or 625

50 Seagaurd 630 *This build excels and making people use their scroll early so this unit is SUPER combat effective with Okkam's mindrazor at it's disposal.*
-full command

OR *This is what I usually run*

30 Archers 330 *The unit I buff if I am not running sisters that I place directly across the enemies most expensive infantry. Dark elves hate this.*
-full command

17 Archers 200 *I find this makes an effective unit for shooting normal stuff like chaff and still able to protect all the soft heroes in this list. One trick I do is put the full command and 2 heroes other than Teclis in the front rank so Teclis can be in the second rank*
-full command

5 Ellyrian Reavers 95
-bows and spears

RARE 620

Great Eagle 65
-upgraded

Great Eagle 65
-upgraded

35 Sister of Avalorn 490 *I don't always run sisters for reasons I'll explain later. I often run 2 repeating bolt throwers.*


So where the damage coming from?
Take Sisters of Avalorn and put these 4 spells on them, flaming ruin, enchanted blades, harmonic, and then debuff the target with soulblight. Ok getting 4 spells off sounds impossible right but wait there is more. Oh btw, in case your to lazy to do math 36 sisters will in 1 turn of shooting mow down 34 NURGLE WARRIORS in ONE turn of shooting, 29-28 if they have shields. So even at far range you will kill an average size unit of Nurgle warriors in ONE TURN OF SHOOTING! Oh and icing on the cake is that you get all these buffs for you stand in shoot in case a lone monster wants to fly in to stop them, he'll die for free if your enemy general isn't smart. ESP with quick to fire sisters.

Wow, you're stupid if you think you can get 4 spells off in a single magic phase.
Ok so at first glimpse you're probably thinking so what. I have to stack spells that's impossible. The game is designed so you can only get 1 spell off a phase on average. This is where you are woefully mistaken. I am averaging 3 spells (that get through) a magic phase. I can roll double 1s for wins of magic and still cast 8 spells. I'll break it down for you. I roll up winds of Magic and my enemy gets say an average 5 dispels dice. It's the first elf turn of the game and I activated the forbidden rod. I got a total average roll of 11 power (7 from winds) and 4 more from channels + forbidden. Lets begin. Find some large target your enemy doesn't want you to cannon off the table. Your at this point in time do 1 of 2 things. 1) Go over all your spells and make a strong note of AMBER SPEAR to your opponent. You'd have to be crazy to not want to stop that spell. Make sure he knows you plan to cast it put 4 dice aside for it for the upgraded version. Because Teclis level 5 the 13/14 required to cast it is pretty easy on 4 dice. Most enemies will rightfully so realize they need 5 dispel dice to comfortable stop a 4 dice spell. They will ignore all these 2 dice spells. 4 way buff the unit with only failing 6-3% of the time because Teclis succeeds to cast spells that go off on an 8 on a 3+. You have to roll snake eyes to fail. So sadly that will leave you with only 3 power dice to cast your amber spear but he will have 5 dice so it won't go off anyways. 2) Or just cast amber spear first *I don't like this one as much because chance of miscast* and unless he is going to scroll it he will try to stop with dice. Even if he scrolls it. Good first turn scroll removal is always worth it and even with 5 dispel dice and a scroll odds are you will still get a spell off. So with this build you have SEVEN spells you can comfortable cast with 2 power dice. This means Staff of Lileath will generate you easily an extra 7 power dice and not at the beginning of the phase so it's still legal. I almost always get a magic phase where I cast 7 spells. 20 power dice totally common.

So you're probably thinking, well that's not a big deal that's just 1 magic phase. Here's the real kick to the stomach. You still got the staff of lileath which is = effective as the forbidden rod. You don't really need the staff if his scroll is gone and it will be if you're doing this right. do against on your second turn of shooting. So what happens if you go second and your really only have 1 turn to make things die. ACTIVATE BOTH RODS. I usually take a chariot so I got something I can mindrazor and smash into enemy monsters. Enemies will have to stop mindrazor and amber spear and you will still get the combo.

This all looks interesting but I can see so many variables. You're playing paper hammer not Warhammer!
I don't want to break down every single bit of math for you but since Teclis can cast REALLY important spells (7 spells) on 2 dice it's way more stable than a normal magic phase honestly. In short do not knock this until you try it.

So ok, maybe i'll believe you but your armies going to die in hand to hand anyways even if only half the enemies get across the field.
This is the best part of this. Go back through and reread those spells. I killed Throgg and 12 trolls with my 17 man archer bunker. MINDRAZOR + HARMONIC/ENCHANTED + FLAMMING SWORD OF RUIN. I casted those 3 spells after I baited his dice out with Amber Spear and Flesh to Stone. Granted I had to use the staff to get that many spells out. What about unkillable things like daemon princes? I think this army has more tools do deal with Tzeentch lords and daemon princes than most. I have no problem killing Nurgle daemon princes. That is largely to do with the construction of the other half of my army not posted here.

Ok so why not sisters every game?
Well point wise it's hard to put in a Sister Star and have any elite infantry like Phoenix Guard who massively excel with Teclis buff. With Phoenix Guard MINDRAZOR + HARMONIC or SPEED of BATTLE = dead anything. Also, It's a lot of points and if your running sisters it's not easy to put in bolt throwers which are often needed to clear up chaff. I think the number 1 reason to not bother with sisters is that they are always flaming. Dragon bane gem is just way to common. The archers can drawl out the enemy scroll just fine leaving you with plenty of pointed eyed menace and lovely mindrazor to destroy their army in hand to hand. Something in the sisters favor is they are WS 5 which helps a lot against Nurgle daemon princes. That goes well with mindrazor in hand to hand. I find the sisters a little less universal then running standard archer build but it is absolutely devastating. BTW, this army concept hard counters dark elves builds. Even DE avoidance has been a cake walk for me. DE use to be one of my hardest match ups.

Ok so I know I've been trying to ram this build down everyone's throat but it's really should be examined just like the EQ deathstar was. It's just great and I am scoring lots of massacres with it. Seriously killing 27 executioners at FAR RANGE is so satisfying, with just 30 shots. It was a unit of 40 and they where down to 3 when my RBTs and noble where done with them.
Last edited by Drakova on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Archmage_Mariona
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#2 Post by Archmage_Mariona »

Do you have a link to the full army list? It looks interesting enough to try. Although a lot is left down to how well you can bluff your opponent so it has limited re-usability. But why don't you post some battle reports to help give people a better idea of how your matches with it have played out?
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#3 Post by Ferny »

My one foray into sisterstardom was promptly blasted to pieces with rock throwers, and a big horde of seaguard is probably vulnerable to that too. I don't doubt that this list would work really well against the right armies but I'd be worried about it vs others.
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Drakova
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#4 Post by Drakova »

Ferny wrote:My one foray into sisterstardom was promptly blasted to pieces with rock throwers, and a big horde of seaguard is probably vulnerable to that too. I don't doubt that this list would work really well against the right armies but I'd be worried about it vs others.
Rock throwers are easily countered. So many ways to eliminate war machines quickly. Just try it and don't be retarded if they have tons of ranged template weapons just deploy thinner and take BotWD and ironcurse. Easy.
Drakova
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#5 Post by Drakova »

This is my standard army list. I'll take pictures of it soon and I'll try to get pictures of my next game.

High Elf Perfection 2500

LORDS AND HEROES 763

Teclis 475
-Scroll of Hoeth
-Staff of Lileath
-Crown of Saphery
-Lore of Life: Flesh to Stone
-Lore of Light: Speed of Battle
-Lore of Death: Soulblight
-Lore of Fire: Flamming Sword of Ruin
-Lore of Heavens: Harmonic Convergence
-Lore of Shadow: Okkam's Mindrazor
-Lore of Beast: The Amber Spear
-Lore of Metal: Enchanted Blades of Aiban

Noble (Stryfe) 153
-battle standard bearer
-heavy armor
-lion cloak
-Charmed Shield
-Potion of Strength
-Reaver Bow

Mage (Pepsii) 135
-level 1 fire mage
-Forbidden Rod
-Golden Crown of Atrazar
-Ironcurse Icon

CORE 625

30 Archers 330
-full command

17 Archers 200
-full command

5 Ellyrian Reavers 95
-bows and spears

SPECIAL 842

25 Phoenix Gaurd 450
-full command
-Razor Standard

24 White Lions 392
-full command
-Banner of the World Dragon

RARE 270

Great Eagle 65
-upgraded

Great Eagle 65
-upgraded

2 Eagle Claw Talons 140
Ferny
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#6 Post by Ferny »

Drakova wrote:
Ferny wrote:My one foray into sisterstardom was promptly blasted to pieces with rock throwers, and a big horde of seaguard is probably vulnerable to that too. I don't doubt that this list would work really well against the right armies but I'd be worried about it vs others.
Rock throwers are easily countered. So many ways to eliminate war machines quickly. Just try it and don't be retarded if they have tons of ranged template weapons just deploy thinner and take BotWD and ironcurse. Easy.
Yes, you can and probably should deploy in a line, but that has implications on your whole deployment and subsequent battleline.

Ironcurse is only 6++ and for the sisters to get the BotWD it needs to be on a BSB (same for the lothern block), and obviously, whoever has it means that the other unit doesn't!

I'd also be interested in what counters you use for rock-throwers. If your opponent is shielding them properly they should be quite hard to get to (dwarves, bretts, O&G), and then you've got the hellcannon which is an even tougher nut to crack.

I'm concious that I probably struggle to play against war machines more than most, so I'm quite prepared to believe that your list works well for you (certainly better than for me), but I'm not sure the counters you've posted so far are as strong as all that and I'd love any elaboration or tips you could give on how you counter war machines beyond what you've already said.

P.S. Looking at your regular list, it's very similar to my regular list (although I've started playing other lists recently for variety, hence experimenting with sisterstar).
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Drakova
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#7 Post by Drakova »

Maximizing efficiency against war machine fire is something that doesn't translate well into words. I can see how I am going to have to start taking pictures. I don't really think high elves are mega vulnerable to war machines anymore with the new book and here is why. After that I'll give you ideas on realistic ways to deal with war machines.

1) High Elves has access to 2 great fast move chaff units in core alone. Naked units of reavers and silver helms who can run in a pencil thin formation of 2 wide are a nightmare for anyone with loads of points in war machines.
2) White shadow warriors are nothing special they are an option but we got GREAT anti war machine infantry in our special choices. We fight in 1 extra rank so we don't have to have 4 ranks deep first of all. When using magic this powerful you don't need massive hordes to win combat. 15 Phoenix guard with mindrazor and flesh to stone vs THE WORLD works out just fine. Lion cloaks, movement 5 infantry, high leadership so they can run separate from the general unit to utilize terrain, +4 ward, ability to carry BotWD on specials, dragon princes who ignore all flaming war machines in the pencil formation. I find my dark elf infantry armies have a much harder game against war machines than my high elves because of things such as frenzy bait and really way less ranged protection.
3) HE rare choices got a huge buff to war machine killing potential. You need to remember how alignment works against war machines it's very easy for great eagles to choose what angle to over run into another war machine. Ok and with their new upgrades eagle are way better at tagging 2 machines a turn.
4) The new Reaver Bow was changed so it works great with potion of strength and great eagles. Pop the potion the first turn of the game and put a single wound or two on a war machine you know your chaff will get too. So while and eagle isn't going to kill three dwarf crew men in 1 round of combat and might even die if say a cannon left it sitting on 1 wound. The reaver bow and the new upgrades make that first warmachine a quick kill. Then over run into the second war machine. I've done "the triple kill" once buy shooting the first war machine with the PoS Reaver bow and running a great eagle into it with his upgraded features I killed the crew and over ran into a second war machine. This second war machine had another eagle on it so I got both eagles swinging in the same combat. So the two eagles with upgrades manage to kill all three crew in combat and one of the eagles was able to over run into a third war machine. There is something extremely important about war machine armies and eagles I'll get to the in the tactics section.
5) I don't use high magic but this is great against war machines because while casting offensive magic your passively getting a better ward save. Say you're playing a dwarf army with lots of magical war machines. One of your units doesn't care because BotWD and the other one is Phoenix Guard with a 3 up ward. Heck put the mage in with sisters and ironcurse and start stacking the ward while shooting in a 2 deep rank formation. Sisters will kill war machines even with hard cover on them with flaming sword of ruin.
6) war machines are getting repriced at higher points with ever new book. I've fought the new dwarf book 2x so far and other than the new gyrobomber their shooting hasn't been a problem at all. Also, consider how war machine master engineers are not part of the crew any more so over runs are easier.
7) So another thing that is extremely important is the cost of some of the new cannons out there. Sending 30 buffed up bow shots at a warmachine worth 250 points is great. It was over kill for example on the old 90 point dwarf cannon. Even if the enemy war machine kill a lot of your soldiers. It is extremely hard for war machine to finish anything off that is rank and file. I got 1 sister left you get 0 points for it.
8) Teclis can have Flaming Sword of Ruin and Amber Spear, 2 spells any general will HAVE to stop to protect their war machines. Also, consider the bubble effectiveness of Harmonic on bolt throwers firing single shot.

Ok now I'm going to go over tactics and strategies. I have so much practice fighting war machines I think war machine armies are one of the easiest match ups for HE now. I feel like I should post my best friend's list that I play all the time. I have a great win rate against it. (old dwarf book obviously)

LORDS AND HEROES 471

Runelord 474
-anvil of doom
-great weapon
-MRoC
-Spelleater
-Spellbreaker
-Shielding
-MRoG

CORE 1030

15 warriors 175
-full command
-great weapons

60 long breads 855
-full command
-great weapons
-Rune of Courage
-Rune of Determination

SPECIAL 755

cannon 110
-egineer w/ brace

cannon 110
-egineer w/ brace

cannon 90

grudge Thrower 155
-pen 3

grudge Thrower 155
-pen 2
-accu

grudge Thrower 135
-pen 1
-accu
-burn

RARE 240

organ Gun 120

organ Gun 120

Now he castles up and doesn't need a bsb because of the runes on his longbreads have the same effect. I guess I am showing you his list (new book his list changed) So you might believe me when I say I have experience fighting war machine armies. I have played this list more than any other list and variations of it over the years. This exact list 6 times tho. Ok let's begin.

1) The number one thing I think most people are doing wrong is chaff deployment. All over the internet, your read just throw down your chaff first until you see where the enemy drops his big blocks. This is true in 90% of the games but against armies with war machines YOU MUST DEAL WITH. Sometimes dropping a 30 inch archer block (not your main one) first is crucial. You need your chaff to be threatening immediately. Making sure your eagle has a charge on turn two can be more important than whether or not you have the match ups in hand to hand! especially if your bluffing and you have no real intention in fighting his infantry.
2) Create the "flood effect". What I most often do against heavy shooting armies is make all my target equally threatening as possibly. Send everything in so that the enemy has to decide between your great eagles and chaff or destroying your blocks. This part should be obvious but there is more. DO NOT ALWAYS VANGARD!!!!! If they have 24 inch range and getting the +1 to going first it might be wise to not vanguard! Teclis is amazing at creating a flood effect. Oh your shot all my Phoenix Gaurd to death. That's cool ill just kill all your black orcs in hand to hand with my archer unit of 30 with Teclis support.
3) So 2 situations unravel. a) They shoots the hell out of your chaff coming in and they have that big tanky block of whatever in your way. Activate both your rods cast all 8 spells charge them and kill them. It's just that easy, btw. b) They smash your blocks up because now your numbers are just too few (oh shit I got 9 white lions left and 12 Phoenix Guard and I am looking at 2 hordes of whatever. Well elves are fast just turn around and run and save the points and have your chaff mop up his war machines and delay the game to turn 6. It's also just that easy.

God wish I had a decent camera. I don't have a smart phone I know pathetic. Anyways, I am gonna get one soon just for Warhammer. I was playing dwarves with my dark elves. At 1500 points I lost 42 models and he lost 9 models.... We added up the VP he lost 688 VP I lost exactly 100 (my dark riders with shields). I had 8 models on board and he had 50 remaining. The point is his war machines devastated my dark elf blocks with total ease but my chaff carved his back line up. I walked my infantry close to his infantry to present a threat he had to shoot them and then I turned tail and ran the rest of the game. 5 reavers, 5 shades, netted me 688 VP. His infantry had no way of catching my chaff and while a wall of dwarves can make a physical barrier you can't really wall off your whole deployment at 1500 points.

The thing that made the game so enjoyable was my opponent was apologizing to me and people where giving me a shocked look like wow this is bad I feel bad for you. The whole time I knew warhammer has a system called victory points. To be fair this guy just wanted to kill my guys and I was playing as if it was a tournament. I think in the end we both got we wanted. He was utterly shocked though when we did VP and to his surprised how badly he "lost" technically.

4) Baiting. My most popular tactic for beating a war machine focused army is. clumping a huge unit together of guys who really won't serve any real purpose in the game. Most armies need to remove chaff ASAP but will see a big block of spears and feel like they just have to shoot at that for maximum damage.

5) As soon as the game begins you need to think about are your realistic options for victory. That Dark Elf army with lots of special infantry was fighting a dwarf artillery line. I immediately had the idea in mind that I am play for a marginal victory. If I ran straight in there and even once my guys where shot to pieces charged him straight on he would of massacred me. Don't play for the 20 - 0 victory if it's a bad match up. You should have the right frame of mind from turn 1 to turn 6. Don't let people make you feel obligated to feed them points. Their just mad you're not going to make it easy for them.

6) Terrian is huge and without bat reps I can't explain but I will say it again. HE got good movement and good leadership so abusing terrain is a lot easier for us than most.

7) Lastly have the right tools. I've done dumb stuff like this before. Don't make an army without enough chaff. You don't need a Frost Phoenix to kill 3 dwarves operating a war machine. I know frost hearts are great for the points but I find them very overrated in that they lack synergy many good builds. If your buff them they don't get a lot. You buff 240 points of anything else you get a ton more out of it. If you jus want to stack underpriced units with bad/moderate synergy go play WoC (they only synergize well because they are just too cheap, AKA WoC chariots/Tzentch lord/Deamons Princes *cough cough*). Most competitive HE list need synergy. Teclis gives you a tool for everything. Don't be a noob and let him die.
Last edited by Drakova on Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drakova
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#8 Post by Drakova »

Just copy and paste my list and play it. Come back and tell me what your think. I think you will be shocked how many spells your getting off. Teclis makes the everqueen's +8 look weak.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#9 Post by pk-ng »

Not the most challenging of old dwarven list...don't even have the rune of challenge.
Anyway new dwarves are in out with the old.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#10 Post by Stormie »

"Oh btw, in case your to lazy to do math 36 sisters will in 1 turn of shooting mow down 34 NURGLE WARRIORS in ONE turn of shooting, 29-28 if they have shields"

Call me lazy, but Nurgle Warriors have a save of 4+. With all your spells going off you only have Str 4 and armour piercing, which does not double-up with the Forces of Destruction armour piercing, so these Warriors will always have a save of 6+, meaning 36 Sisters would "only" kill 30, or 24 if they have shields (the lazy part is I'm not working out all of the re-roll 1s parts). Also what if that unit isn't within 24" at the start of the turn, or has any cover, then your Sisters only hit on 4+ (3+ with bonus), meaning you lose another 1/6 of your kills. If you're planning on using your boosters turn 1, you're unlikely to be hitting on 2+.

That is still pretty good, but I think if you're going to talk maths you should probably get it right. And also apologise to any Warriors players you've cheated ;) If I've missed something I also apologise in advance :D

I also fear that such a big unit of Sisters could easily be outmanoeuvred, since they can't have a musician to react to threats on the flanks.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#11 Post by Drakova »

The Master Rune of Challenge is in there on the anvil to suck in chaff.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#12 Post by Drakova »

Stormie wrote:"Oh btw, in case your to lazy to do math 36 sisters will in 1 turn of shooting mow down 34 NURGLE WARRIORS in ONE turn of shooting, 29-28 if they have shields"

Call me lazy, but Nurgle Warriors have a save of 4+. With all your spells going off you only have Str 4 and armour piercing, which does not double-up with the Forces of Destruction armour piercing, so these Warriors will always have a save of 6+, meaning 36 Sisters would "only" kill 30, or 24 if they have shields (the lazy part is I'm not working out all of the re-roll 1s parts). Also what if that unit isn't within 24" at the start of the turn, or has any cover, then your Sisters only hit on 4+ (3+ with bonus), meaning you lose another 1/6 of your kills. If you're planning on using your boosters turn 1, you're unlikely to be hitting on 2+.

That is still pretty good, but I think if you're going to talk maths you should probably get it right. And also apologise to any Warriors players you've cheated ;) If I've missed something I also apologise in advance :D

I also fear that such a big unit of Sisters could easily be outmanoeuvred, since they can't have a musician to react to threats on the flanks.
Yeah, quick to fire still hitting on 2s first turn if you land enchanted unless in cover. ALSO, read the sister's bows it's negative 3 armor. So yes you where missing something big time.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#13 Post by Ferny »

They only have QtF if accompanied by a handmaiden, which I haven't spotted in your list. And where do you get -3 as? S4 and ap gives -2, where's the third pip from?
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#14 Post by Loucipher »

I believe he meant the Arrows of Isha special rule giving additional -1 AS against Forces of Destruction. That would add up.

Stormie, why do you actually think it doesn't double-up with standard AP? The Arrows of Isha isn't listed as AP, and besides, the AP description doesn't say that multiple AP effects don't stack. I'd say it does add up.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#15 Post by RE.Lee »

Special rules don't add up in general.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#16 Post by Stormie »

Loucipher wrote:I believe he meant the Arrows of Isha special rule giving additional -1 AS against Forces of Destruction. That would add up.
I thought maybe he meant that too, I think it can be a little confusing because there's all these additional conditional modifiers, but I couldn't quite figure it out, which is why I explicitly stated what all the different factors were.
Stormie, why do you actually think it doesn't double-up with standard AP? The Arrows of Isha isn't listed as AP, and besides, the AP description doesn't say that multiple AP effects don't stack. I'd say it does add up.
Sorry, what is it you're saying, that the Sisters of Avelorn don't get Armour Piercing vs Forces of Destruction? Is it just another -1 to their armour save? It's perfectly possible I'm misremembering and the army book doesn't call it armour piercing, and if it's not, then great! I love being corrected, it's free learning :D
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#17 Post by Prince of Spires »

Stormie wrote:
Loucipher wrote:I believe he meant the Arrows of Isha special rule giving additional -1 AS against Forces of Destruction. That would add up.
I thought maybe he meant that too, I think it can be a little confusing because there's all these additional conditional modifiers, but I couldn't quite figure it out, which is why I explicitly stated what all the different factors were.
Stormie, why do you actually think it doesn't double-up with standard AP? The Arrows of Isha isn't listed as AP, and besides, the AP description doesn't say that multiple AP effects don't stack. I'd say it does add up.
Sorry, what is it you're saying, that the Sisters of Avelorn don't get Armour Piercing vs Forces of Destruction? Is it just another -1 to their armour save? It's perfectly possible I'm misremembering and the army book doesn't call it armour piercing, and if it's not, then great! I love being corrected, it's free learning :D
That's correct, sisters don't have armour piercing. They simply have -1 to armour vs destruction.

Do note that regular armour piercing is normally limited to close combat only (since the rule reads: wounds caused in close combat...)

Enchanted blades is slightly different, since it gives the AP rule to the individual attacks, not the model. So with enchanted blades up, sisters have -3 to armour vs forces of destruction.

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Drakova
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#18 Post by Drakova »

My standard list doesn't even have sisters ferny. Top of page I suggest taking the handmaiden if you're going to take the sisters. Let me get in trouble with GW and put the arrows exact wording in here.

Arrows of Isha:
"Shooting attacks made by model who is attacking with a weapon that has this special rule are magical attacks. Models from the Forces of Destruction suffer an additional -1 to their armor save against wounds Wounds caused by Arrows of Isha."

So yes the logic is that. It doesn't say anything about armor piercing and therefore there are 2 DIFFERENT modifiers giving you a bonus.

So let's say your have sisters. They stop soul blight and enchanted and you only land ruin and harmonic. It will still do a TON of damage to things like stormvermin and executioners.

I will say this tho. I just played a game where my enemy had 50 exeuctioners in 1 unit and I was really sad I didn't have fiery conviction. He didn't even have any MR. We played on a tiny kitchen table so I wasn't able to kite him long enough. Sad game, my OP lost today :( Oh well it's a dice game and I have feeling the small table really hurt me.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#19 Post by Lord Anathir »

Kiting doesnt work in warhammer because of finite space and because combat is so much better than shooting overall. Its not a video game.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#20 Post by Stormie »

Drakova wrote:Arrows of Isha:
"Shooting attacks made by model who is attacking with a weapon that has this special rule are magical attacks. Models from the Forces of Destruction suffer an additional -1 to their armor save against wounds Wounds caused by Arrows of Isha."

So yes the logic is that. It doesn't say anything about armor piercing and therefore there are 2 DIFFERENT modifiers giving you a bonus.
Thanks, yes, that's clear as day! I didn't have my army book nearby so did a search for Sisters of Avelorn and Forces of Destruction and like 10 different sites came up all saying they had AP vs FoD... I figured, hey, that can't all be getting it wrong, huh? Now there's "internet wisdom" for you!
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#21 Post by Drakova »

Lord Anathir wrote:Kiting doesnt work in warhammer because of finite space and because combat is so much better than shooting overall. Its not a video game.
When I say kiting I mean get 1 more 1 turn of shooting. Yeah you can't kite forever that's for sure. He was in combat on turn 2 (banner of swiftness). I only shot down 20 of his 50 executioners turn one. I had to mow over his stupid harpies to even get a clear shot. He got the first turn had banner swiftness, and dubbed his tiny kitchen (3.5 feet by 5.5) table a fit place for his hand to hand DE army to play me. So I didn't feel too bad about the loss. I use my archers in hand to hand with Teclis buffs and then they can actually fight.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#22 Post by Drakova »

There is one problem I can see with my list. I can't deal with HUGE units very well since I have no spell that hit's all enemies in the unit :(. I am thinking I need to drop the upgrades on the eagles and upgrade my mage to level 2. Pray I roll fiery conviction and go high magic???? I am still trying to figure this one out.

I really like Flesh to Stone... hmmm.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#23 Post by Loucipher »

Stormie wrote:Thanks, yes, that's clear as day! I didn't have my army book nearby so did a search for Sisters of Avelorn and Forces of Destruction and like 10 different sites came up all saying they had AP vs FoD... I figured, hey, that can't all be getting it wrong, huh? Now there's "internet wisdom" for you!
That's what they call "analogy". The four letters this word starts with are there for a reason :D
I wouldn't blame internet - it's just a medium of communication after all. It's just those players who can't be bothered to remember the exact wording of the rule (or check it up if they can't remember), so they code it in their memory as "similar to AP, but vs FoD". Over time, the "similar" part disappears, and there you have them quoting the rule as "AP vs FoD". An observant player like you then connects it with the Zeroth Special Rule (multiple instances of the same special rule do not stack unless specifically stated). And we get what we've got.
Drakova wrote:There is one problem I can see with my list. I can't deal with HUGE units very well since I have no spell that hit's all enemies in the unit :(. I am thinking I need to drop the upgrades on the eagles and upgrade my mage to level 2. Pray I roll fiery conviction and go high magic???? I am still trying to figure this one out.
Why not swap one of your combo of spells with a spell that affects every single model in a target unit? Lore of Life has The Dwellers Below. Lore of Shadows has the Pit of Shades. Lore of Metal has the Final Transmutation. Depends on your strategy really - if you can live without one of the spells you have selected from these lores, and what armies you expect to meet (the stronger ones, or the more agile ones).
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Stormie
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#24 Post by Stormie »

Hah yeah, I know, but I still shouldn't rely on the itnernet for answers before trying to correct someone either way ;)

I think you make a good case for swapping to one of the killer spells. There are so many excellent buffs and hexes in Teclis' spell list, that either Life or Metal could be swapped over for a unit-smasher. As the Metal spell gives proper armour piercing (right?!) and other benefits I expect we'd want to keep it, whereas Flesh to Stone - while nice - is only the unboosted +2T version so I think I'd be happier to lose that one, myself.

Personally I never have a problem dealing with hordes of infantry and I think the threadstarter was just a bit unfortunate against the Executioners. Deleting these units should still be viable!
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#25 Post by Drakova »

Im thinking dwellers over flesh to stone. Id really love to soulblight something then dweller it. Ill try it out tomorrow.
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#26 Post by Drakova »

This is what ill be running tomorrow. Lot's of logic behind it but the ONE THING I WANT TO FIX IS. I really want a seahelm with a unit that big, I also really want potion of strength. I am missing the forbidden rod too. TUFF CALLS...

drop both chariots get my fob mage back and potion of strength? hmm...

High Elf Perfection 2500

LORDS AND HEROES 608

Teclis 475
-Scroll of Hoeth
-Staff of Lileath
-Crown of Saphery
-Lore of Life: Dweller's Below
-Lore of Light: Speed of Battle
-Lore of Death: Soulblight
-Lore of Fire: Flamming Sword of Ruin
-Lore of Heavens: Harmonic Convergence
-Lore of Shadow: Okkam's Mindrazor
-Lore of Beast: The Amber Spear
-Lore of Metal: Enchanted Blades of Aiban

Noble (Stryfe) 133
-battle standard bearer
-heavy armor
-lion cloak
-Charmed Shield
-Reaver Bow

CORE 625

19 Archers 220
-full command

5 Silver Helms 115
-shields

5 Silver Helms 115
-shields

5 Reavers 95
-spears and bows

5 Reavers 80
-spears

SPECIAL 987

59 Sword Masters 847
-full command
-Banner of the World Dragon

Tiranoc Chariot 70

Tiranoc Chariot 70

RARE 280

4 Repeating Bolt Throwers 280
Ptolemy
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#27 Post by Ptolemy »

...so if the list is called "High Elf Perfection" why does it keep changing?
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#28 Post by Sackree »

One dwellers below/ final transmutation and half of that "high elf perfection" is gone. Far too many points in one basket for a unit the opponent never has to engage.
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Drakova
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#29 Post by Drakova »

Perfection is more of just my goal. I think that old I listed in there was pretty dang close. A perfect list is a list that has a solid chance against all list, especially meta list. I am really not enjoying the power level of my white lion's against a lot of dark elf builds. So my new builds are probably worse but just experimenting.

The Ideas Behind the List I am trying tomorrow, If I had to guess though the changes I made won't be worth it.

CORE:
In my old list I was using my archers to mow down enemy infantry which actually was pretty effective some games. Some armies are just too strong against archer fire and forest are a nightmare. I still have 20 archers I can use magic on to buff up. I am going to rely on AMBER SPEAR and bubble HARMONIC to try to eat the enemies scroll now. For armies with lots of cheap infantry in massive hordes the scroll eating combo will be SOULBLIGHT and DWELLERS. In short my 20 archers are just going to focus on chaff killing and my magic won't be buffing them unless I get extra dice with this new build.
No Eagles now because my special choices are sooo expensive but a lot more throw away units between my core and special.

SPECIAL:
The idea I am thinking now is that my lightly armor chariots can protect me from enemy heavy chariots as long as I get the charge. NOT SURE if it's worth 140 points though as Tiranocs are just not that tough. I feel like Tiranocs make decent throw away re directors at 70 points if needed but can still fill out a role if they get a charge. (I am so unsure about the chariots tho, I love Forbidden Rod Mage). Also PoS on my reaver bow is really awesome sometimes. 4 bolt throwers and PoS reaver + harmonic/amber spear is scary for demon princes

So I really like this Swordmaster unit. I want to be able to take out a horde quickly so that I have time protect my fragile back line. I don't want to get stuck in. The problem I am facing is my sword masters only have one initiative buff and I think most dark elf players will just stop that spell and even if I win the combat to many of them might die. If I put the level 1 back in the army I get miasma which is great because I get 2 initiative buff/debuff which really help in some match ups. Teclis buffs work really well with swordmasters. Lets say I am fighting some Tzeetch WoC and I get off harmonic and enchanted. That makes my sword masters pretty much atuo hit. They would cut right through their armor almost too. Anyways, I normally consider swordmaster the worst of the 3 ground infantry special but actually when you look at Teclis maybe not. Just an experiment.

RARE:
I am not running banner of swiftness and swordmasters are kind of weak to shooting. I really want to force them to come with me. Between Teclis buffs and 4 RBTs I am hoping I wont have to go for them. I think my SM unit is to big for advancing because it will just get redirected. I know some armies will still win that range battle tho. Teclis does add a lot of range wars. On the defensive I should be able to mow down re directors giving my giant unit a good chance at getting juicy targets.

I am going to revist the Sister star strat again soon. As I think Tecis + sisters is pretty damn unique and powerful. Probably won't ever be part of my all comers list tho.
Drakova
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Re: A proper SISTER STAR.

#30 Post by Drakova »

Sackree wrote:One dwellers below/ final transmutation and half of that "high elf perfection" is gone. Far too many points in one basket for a unit the opponent never has to engage.

In theory Ill be able to punish anyone who is spamming dwellers because that means they are not rushing into combat. I got a lot of shooting myself. While those spells are scary I do got a chance to remove it from the game and then they would be screwed. Yeah it's a problem but I don't think this army would auto lose if 1 dwellers went of and 30 swordmasters died. There is a good chance ill shut down any spell like that with Teclis untill it's to late. Str 1 Teclis, dwellers always was a problem even before I made a 60 man unit. It hasn't gotten through yet but there will be that game where it gets IF and Teclis dies and Ill lose like turn 2. I think my list is just as vulnerable to dwellers before because of Teclis. Well I use to out range 24 usually with Mr. T since I just need to buff my own so I can see the swordmasters being range every turn to get blasted by dwellers.
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