Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

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Caesura
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Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#1 Post by Caesura »

Hey guys - new warhammer player here (started with the new 8e high elf book).

Last night I was absolutely devastated by the new Lizardmen. That being said I took only a Loremaster w/book of Hoeth and no other magic - so his Slann was able to run circles around me with magic. Now, when I created my list I figured that having 2 units of Reaver chaff, a unit of 9 DPs (+noble w/star lance) and 2 units of 5 shadow warriors would give me the mobility advantage to get some advantageous charges - and even with a lacking magic phase - should allow me to win the day.

On turn one - he used his Bastiladon's laser to completely vaporize a well placed - vanguarded reaver squad. He was then able to out maneuver me at every turn using units of skinks in combination with walk between worlds on his big monsters (stegadon & carnosaur). It didn't help that my Dragon Princes missed their only chance to charge the stegadon, before it won the counter charge... but I digress...

After my humbling defeat by a Lizardmen army that were far too mobile for their own good - I started thinking about other units I could bring that could add mobility + punch. And I have a few questions that I hope you folks could answer -

1.) I was using archers in core - but I found that they had very little impact in the battle as they were unable to hit enough of the skink skirmishers, before they were in close range with poison darts. I'd imagine Silver helms are the way to go for a core choice with the greatest mobility and hardest hits?

2.) My first thought for a great punch along with great mobility were our Lothern Skycutters - then I found out that chariots can't march - so whats the point of chariots who move 8 inches less than heavy cav? Is there a way to incorporate chariots into a highly mobile list?

3.) I was running 20 white lions along with a loremaster in my "main" block. They did a great job shrugging the poison shooting - but were kept away from his main block of Temple guard + Slann, by a Carnosaur that was "walked betweened the worlds" right behind them on turn 1. These guys should be in the fight - but how do I get them there with the rest of my army - when the rest is movement 9 or 10? Is a mage with high magic the solution? Banner of Swiftness? Should I change to PG, move them up slowly - and use them as an anvil/mage bunker?

4.) I've run the frost phoenix a few times - and it has yet to die and has been my all around MVP for most games. (Single handedly fended off a charge from a block of 35 saurus warriors, a bastiladon & an ancient steg... so... its awesome!). I'd imagine 2 would be ideal for a hard -hitting mobile force. However - should I consider taking a flame and frost for more versatility? Would having a flame be worth the loss of combat prowess if it helped get rid of large blocks that could stop my cavalry?

5.) What sort of support should be taken with this high mobility list? Which Lore of Magic would be good? Should there be 2 mages or 1? Should I keep the BSB in the DPs? or change to my special combat block? Would bolt throwers on the back line be a good idea to add a bit of shooting that will cut through armor? or would shadow warriors be a better choice for distraction/warmachine hunters?

Thanks for all the help guys - sorry for the wall of questions!
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#2 Post by Ferny »

Caesura wrote: 1.) I was using archers in core - but I found that they had very little impact in the battle as they were unable to hit enough of the skink skirmishers, before they were in close range with poison darts. I'd imagine Silver helms are the way to go for a core choice with the greatest mobility and hardest hits?

I reckon if you're building a list specifically to take on skink spam you could do plenty worse than silver helms. Unlike reavers they can withstand the stand and shoot and you should be guaranteed to kill lots of skinks. They might hold on steadfast/cold blooded and then you start the grind, which you should win all things being equal. Archers have a role (especially against cohorts) but with skirmisher -1 to hit its tricky

2.) My first thought for a great punch along with great mobility were our Lothern Skycutters - then I found out that chariots can't march - so whats the point of chariots who move 8 inches less than heavy cav? Is there a way to incorporate chariots into a highly mobile list?

Well, the chariots are cheaper even than a minimum unit of 5 core silver helms, so there is that. But yeah, generally I'd prefer heavy cav. Dragon princes pack more punch and should over-run any skinks they hit, but silver helm core works well too IMO

3.) I was running 20 white lions along with a loremaster in my "main" block. They did a great job shrugging the poison shooting - but were kept away from his main block of Temple guard + Slann, by a Carnosaur that was "walked betweened the worlds" right behind them on turn 1. These guys should be in the fight - but how do I get them there with the rest of my army - when the rest is movement 9 or 10? Is a mage with high magic the solution? Banner of Swiftness? Should I change to PG, move them up slowly - and use them as an anvil/mage bunker?

Assuming you start 24" apart you're hitting combat by turn 3 latest, sooner if you're charging into a stalled combat which has already begun in front of them. I don't think you should worry too much about getting them in (also, there's no reason why you shouldn't give them the Banner of the World Dragon IMO).

4.) I've run the frost phoenix a few times - and it has yet to die and has been my all around MVP for most games. (Single handedly fended off a charge from a block of 35 saurus warriors, a bastiladon & an ancient steg... so... its awesome!). I'd imagine 2 would be ideal for a hard -hitting mobile force. However - should I consider taking a flame and frost for more versatility? Would having a flame be worth the loss of combat prowess if it helped get rid of large blocks that could stop my cavalry?

Frost, as you say, is awesome. Two can only be awesomer. I don't think the fire cuts it by comparison.

5.) What sort of support should be taken with this high mobility list? Which Lore of Magic would be good? Should there be 2 mages or 1? Should I keep the BSB in the DPs? or change to my special combat block? Would bolt throwers on the back line be a good idea to add a bit of shooting that will cut through armor? or would shadow warriors be a better choice for distraction/warmachine hunters?

I always like BSBs because they give you a buffer against critical poor Ld rolls, but many consider them to vulnerable. I also like two mages (Lv 4/Loremaster with book of hoeth and Lv1/2 with ring and dispel, but YMMV. Lore choice depends heavily on what you want it to do alongside the rest of your army. Fire would be good at clearing loads of skink chaff but will not help much with monsters or saurus. Life and High can potentially both restore wounds on frosties, life should also directly help protect from shooting and combat, high is more offensive IMO with fury and flames. Death might do some damage to big monsters/heros and help with getting stuff to flee. Also lizard I is pretty poor so purple sun is deadly. But it depends what you want to get out of your magic :)
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Irishranger
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#3 Post by Irishranger »

Lizards are just flat out better than us at mobility, m6 skrimishers are very very fast.
That said if they start taking temple guard or saurus blocks then they can be caught and destroyed. The only monsters that are dangerous in combat are stegs, as a carnosaur will die to stiff breeze and are rarely seen as the y are a massive liability.

E.G. the carnosaur rear charges the white lions, challenge with a champ, he has to accept, hold on stubborn with a reroll and reform to face it, beat its head in next turn before it gets to swing. You lose a champ and no points, he loses a 300pt+ monster and rider.

To beat the lizards there are 3 options, armor up, bunker up or build a wall.
Option one is take as much stuff with a 2+ save as possible, silver helms, chaff nobles, dragon princes, dragons and just charge everything every turn, some will connect and they cant do much back.

Option two is is sit in a corner and shoot him off with archers and RBTs and magic missiles

Option 3 is the most scary for the lizard player and is cover the board from edge to edge with models and walk 10" a turn forward.
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

Ferny wrote:Caesura wrote:
1.) I was using archers in core - but I found that they had very little impact in the battle as they were unable to hit enough of the skink skirmishers, before they were in close range with poison darts. I'd imagine Silver helms are the way to go for a core choice with the greatest mobility and hardest hits?

I reckon if you're building a list specifically to take on skink spam you could do plenty worse than silver helms. Unlike reavers they can withstand the stand and shoot and you should be guaranteed to kill lots of skinks. They might hold on steadfast/cold blooded and then you start the grind, which you should win all things being equal. Archers have a role (especially against cohorts) but with skirmisher -1 to hit its tricky
Keep in mind that skirmishers are never steadfast (except when in a forest). So if you win combat by enough, they almost always run, even when coldblooded.

Also be wary of you opponent simply fleeing with them, leaving your SH stranded. One or 2 units of Reaver can be usefull in this case. You could use them to charge a fleeing unit again, making it flee even more, potentially taking it off the board.

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cptcosmic
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#5 Post by cptcosmic »

Caesura wrote: 1.) I was using archers in core - but I found that they had very little impact in the battle as they were unable to hit enough of the skink skirmishers, before they were in close range with poison darts. I'd imagine Silver helms are the way to go for a core choice with the greatest mobility and hardest hits?
the "strongest" is relative. one silverhelm bus as a unit for a melee character with reavers as chaff is probably one of the best core setups because those units are always useful and reliable even without magic.
Caesura wrote: 2.) My first thought for a great punch along with great mobility were our Lothern Skycutters - then I found out that chariots can't march - so whats the point of chariots who move 8 inches less than heavy cav? Is there a way to incorporate chariots into a highly mobile list?
chariots are support units for infantry. they can clear other chaff units relatively easy and they dont need to move fast to support infantry in combat, all you need is a free corner for base to base contact to be able to delivery impact hits.
Caesura wrote: 3.) I was running 20 white lions along with a loremaster in my "main" block. They did a great job shrugging the poison shooting - but were kept away from his main block of Temple guard + Slann, by a Carnosaur that was "walked betweened the worlds" right behind them on turn 1. These guys should be in the fight - but how do I get them there with the rest of my army - when the rest is movement 9 or 10? Is a mage with high magic the solution? Banner of Swiftness? Should I change to PG, move them up slowly - and use them as an anvil/mage bunker?
remember that walk between worlds does make someone does not let you move through other units. anyway, lizardmen are still cheesy even without the power of the old slann, if a LM player decides to take mass amounts of skinks skirmisher in core then you wont see those combats that you really want and it is really hard to win a chaff war against LM. best bet would be to keep some of your reavers/eagles back to protect them from shooting and roll them out when something like this happens to redirect either the TG or the carno. best way to handle this would be to redirect the TG, let the carno with hero charge and challenge him with a champ (he has to accept). aftewards reform and kill the carno.
Caesura wrote: 4.) I've run the frost phoenix a few times - and it has yet to die and has been my all around MVP for most games. (Single handedly fended off a charge from a block of 35 saurus warriors, a bastiladon & an ancient steg... so... its awesome!). I'd imagine 2 would be ideal for a hard -hitting mobile force. However - should I consider taking a flame and frost for more versatility? Would having a flame be worth the loss of combat prowess if it helped get rid of large blocks that could stop my cavalry?
LM would most likely offer some nice targets for the fire phoenix but he would die quite fast against the shooting of LM, leave it at home for this matchup.
Caesura wrote: 5.) What sort of support should be taken with this high mobility list? Which Lore of Magic would be good? Should there be 2 mages or 1? Should I keep the BSB in the DPs? or change to my special combat block? Would bolt throwers on the back line be a good idea to add a bit of shooting that will cut through armor? or would shadow warriors be a better choice for distraction/warmachine hunters?
always keep the BSB for LD rerolls. your magic setup depends on what you want to achieve. a single archmage can be enough if he can get through all the energy dice by himself and get one spell through the magic defense. against LM a lvl 4 with book + lvl 2 with scroll and ring of fury with a cheap lore like high would be ideal imho, you could spam 3 magic missiles every magic phase to deal with skinks and afterwards one dice a support spell like walk between worlds with the archmage or you could cast only 2 magic missiles and then throw the dice for a big spell. bolt throwers are always usefull to threaten monsters, protecting them against skink shooting is tough though.
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#6 Post by Ferny »

rdghuizing wrote:
Ferny wrote:Caesura wrote:
1.) I was using archers in core - but I found that they had very little impact in the battle as they were unable to hit enough of the skink skirmishers, before they were in close range with poison darts. I'd imagine Silver helms are the way to go for a core choice with the greatest mobility and hardest hits?

I reckon if you're building a list specifically to take on skink spam you could do plenty worse than silver helms. Unlike reavers they can withstand the stand and shoot and you should be guaranteed to kill lots of skinks. They might hold on steadfast/cold blooded and then you start the grind, which you should win all things being equal. Archers have a role (especially against cohorts) but with skirmisher -1 to hit its tricky
Keep in mind that skirmishers are never steadfast (except when in a forest). So if you win combat by enough, they almost always run, even when coldblooded.

Also be wary of you opponent simply fleeing with them, leaving your SH stranded. One or 2 units of Reaver can be usefull in this case. You could use them to charge a fleeing unit again, making it flee even more, potentially taking it off the board.

Rod
Good spot Rod, I'd forgotten that! Haha, have at you skinky scum :D. Mind you, cold blooded and slann nearby still pose problems, but no stubborn is excellent news.

Yeah, fleeing is a problem, but I faced an army with Death Slann, EotG, 2x terradons, 2xsalamanders and max skink spam. I can't even remember how many skink units (of 10) there were. 10? 15? Loads. This was with an ogres list and I basically just panicked from doom&darkness/salamanders. But even if the game had gone more evenly, clearing that many units of skinks is a nightmare and you just struggle to pick up enough points to justify any of your units!

I think if you've got at least 2 units of silver helms, each re-directing, then the impact that has is solid enough to justify. If they rally next turn they can't do jack (skinks are great but they aint fast cav, thank god) and there's panic potential too. If I were the LM I think I'd be as likely to hold/S&S depending on situation, but causing flees is no bad thing given that for me SH are just support troops rather than a bus.
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#7 Post by Worloch »

I believe my buddy who plays LM has stated that the new Aquatic rule for Skinks gives them steadfast in rivers and marshes as well, and they still get the Skirmishers Steadfast in Forests from the BRB, so depending on terrain, that can still be a factor.


Skink Ld has taken a hit with the new book, so you only need to win combat by about 2 to have a great chance of running them off despite cold-blooded. You only need to win by about 4 to make it an insane courage test. Winning CC against Skinks usually isn't too hard. If he is running Slann General+BSB+Standard of Discipline, you do need to be aware of that Ld bubble, but I've found that Skinks are likely to roam outside that range.

If he has Skink Skirmishers in short range of your Archers, charge them. You may lose a couple archers on the way in to Javelins or Blowpipes S&S reaction, but our Archers will beat them in CC. If he flees (2d6") and is in short range (6"), there is still a decent chance you catch him on the charge move (2d6+5") and they all die outright. If he has outmaneuvered your archers and is not in your front arc, fast reform (you took a musician just for this purpose, right?) and try to shoot him with your longbows. He is definitely in short range (15" short range Longbow Vs 12" Max range Javelins and Blowpipes), so you will take -2 for moving and skrimishers. That is 5+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and possibly 5+ AS (Scaly Skin + Shields) - not the best profile, but you only need to do 25% of the unit in wounds to force a panic test, and as above, if they are roaming outside the Ld bubble, they have pretty crappy Ld and can fail even with Cold Blooded.


Chariots can not march, that is true, but the real threat comes in the 10"+Swiftstride flying charge range + impact hits for the Lothern Skycutter. For its points, it is a pretty good support unit, and depending on the circumstances, could be used to herd skink chaff - especially if you can maneuver out of their front arc so they won't get a S&S reaction. Do remember that since it can fly, you can move and even charge over units, as long as you can draw LOS to the target.


Frosty is awesome and I love him. Frost and Fire definitely serve different roles on the battlefield, despite being based on the same model and sharing many of the same special rules. In this scenario, I would say leave the Fire guy at home - poison based multishots are going to be painful, even with a 5++ WS. Frosty does better here, because he gets a 5+ AS and a 5++ WS, making it much less likely that the poison wounds get through.
Caesura
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#8 Post by Caesura »

Thanks for all the comments guys. I appreciate the help!

I'm still struggling to find spots for Seaguard or Archers - most probably because most of the matches I've played have been against 1+ armor Empire, armored Lizardmen - it seemed like the shooting did nothing against massed Temple Guard, and Vampire Counts with Gigantic hoards of skeletons (like 90+). Luckily I got off fiery convocation on the hoard of skeletons...

That being said - I've never really thought to use archers as close combat units if the need arises - but they get martial prowess same as spearmen, so on the charge they would be just as effective correct?
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Re: Questions on High Elven Mobilty and Hard Hitting Units

#9 Post by ElderlyElf »

I played dwarfs the other night, with a Loremaster in a Swordmaster block and a Lvl riding with my Dragon Princes. They both miscast, one on each of the first two turns.

This is the role for your archers, a place to hide your Mages.
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