advice against the new Lizardmen?

[TheAnds]

hello my friends..

in 2 days, i am going to play against the new lizardmen in a friendly game..
so.. the only rest is that named heroes/lords are not Allowed, a 2500 point game...
so now i need som help with troops and magic...

lvl 4 shadow
lvl 1 death
lvl 1 metal
bsb
block of spearmen
3 x 10 archer
5 reavers
28 white lions
24 phoenix guards
3 bolt trowers

what do you think?

metal is for the good armour saves they have, and shadow/death is for debuff and ultra kill.. ::)

[Beau_the_wise]

Ok i believe some lizard men are low in initiative, which means you either can take shadow or death on your wizards. Death has purple sun and shadow has pit of shades. These spells will quite easily knock a few lizard warriors over. But it may be a good idea to take a lvl 2 wizard with high magic, as you archers will be hitting on a lower with the spell Hand of Glory. So it really your choice. Thats magic, but troops. Do you know what he is taking in his army?

[pk-ng]

Metal will be useless against them. Unless he fields a unit of Cold Ones but you have WLs to counter.
He'll probably have Scar Vets on Cold Ones in which case they'll have 2++ against flaming attacks.
I would drop the metal mage for more redirectors.

[TheAnds]

Do you know what he is taking in his army?

no not at all.. :/

Metal will be useless against them. Unless he fields a unit of Cold Ones but you have WLs to counter.

but what about their scaly skin + shield + light armour = 3+ AS ? thats a 50/50 chance?
thats a okay chance with metal? plus.. the chance for a number 6 metal spell?

then maybe i take the high magic instead of metal, but i liked the metal lore... ::)

[Beau_the_wise]

Do you know what he is taking in his army?

no not at all.. :/

Metal will be useless against them. Unless he fields a unit of Cold Ones but you have WLs to counter.

but what about their scaly skin + shield + light armour = 3+ AS ? thats a 50/50 chance?
thats a okay chance with metal? plus.. the chance for a number 6 metal spell?

then maybe i take the high magic instead of metal, but i liked the metal lore... ::)

Even with a 3+ save WL can make that become 6+ its not very likely that he will save his AS. You strike first and you get rerolls, in combat you have him, but maybe split your WL unit up into 2, making them 14 in a unit. and using you PG to take some of the hits, by running them up into his back units. This creates an opportunity for your WL to clear the crowd. As long as you can hit some of your spells all should fall into place.

[TheAnds]

You strike first and you get rerolls

get rerolls? on white lions? they do not get rerolls anymore.. GW and ASF cancel each-other out.
so i only strike first beacause of my I... :/

[pk-ng]

you get rerolls, in combat you have him

No rerolls

3+ AS is only 2 units if i'm not mistaken and thats Temple Guard and Ancient Stegadon.
Also you have Shadow which you may roll up pit of shades which is better than the Final Transmutation.
You only have 1 redirector which will be cruical for it to survive so having another one will be useful.
Lizard also have alot of skink skirmishers which means it might be useful to get some magic missiles to help clear them out.

[TheAnds]

you get rerolls, in combat you have him

No rerolls

3+ AS is only 2 units if i'm not mistaken and thats Temple Guard and Ancient Stegadon.
alot of skink skirmishers which means it might be useful to get some magic missiles to help clear them out.

then a fire mage or ring of ruby? (flaming sword of ruin)

does any lizardmen have regenation?

but what are the chances that he may use temple guards and ancient stegadon? big?

[Stormie]

There's a good chance he'll have Temple Guard, but it's unlikely you'll want to blow a high-cost spell to kill 2 or 3 Temple Guard. If he has an Ancient Stegadon then Searing Doom is an excellent spell for that (all hits go on the beast now so no 5+ ablativ crew save!).

First targetting priorityis always Terradonns. He might have a load of Skinks- if you see any that are outside his general's LD range, target them with light-arms fire and you'll have a good chance to panic them.

He will really struggle to kill your Phoenix Guard and White Lions, so use them to pressure him as best you can.

Slann is still a powerhouse but you probably won't feel overwhelmed like he used to be able to do. If he takes the "all signature spells" ability, be weary of him casting Miasma when you think he's trapped- he might use Smoke and Mirrors to escape.

[TheAnds]

oh yeah.. 2-3 TG is not that much... :/
what about:
lvl 4 shadow, book and ward save 4
lvl 1 death, scroll
lvl 1 death, high magic ring

[pk-ng]

does any lizardmen have regenation?

but what are the chances that he may use temple guards and ancient stegadon? big?

Regen - pretty sure no.
Temple guard - likely? they are the best combat unit for lizzies but suffer as they are infantry
Ancient Steg - maybe they look decent but have to really test them out in combat. But you have RBT to counter them. It really comes down to target saturation. If he has enough camo skinks, terradons and etc you may not get the chance to take a shot at the Anc Steg.

[Arhain]

Most of the monsters have at least a 4+ save, while the bastilladons have a 2+ save.


Lvl 4 Shadow or Death isn't a bad idea. I think lvl 4 Shadoe and two lvl 1 Death casters isn't great, as the sig Death is a higher casting value, so those two lvl 1s will soak up too much dice.

[TheAnds]

Most of the monsters have at least a 4+ save, while the bastilladons have a 2+ save.
two lvl 1s will soak up too much dice.

why is this so ... argh..
does it really matter what i use my dices to, if they just work... !? :/

btw: my shooting dice with the bolt trower is not best in land... :/

[English 2000]

There's a good chance he'll have Temple Guard, but it's unlikely you'll want to blow a high-cost spell to kill 2 or 3 Temple Guard. If he has an Ancient Stegadon then Searing Doom is an excellent spell for that (all hits go on the beast now so no 5+ ablativ crew save!).

First targetting priorityis always Terradonns. He might have a load of Skinks- if you see any that are outside his general's LD range, target them with light-arms fire and you'll have a good chance to panic them.

He will really struggle to kill your Phoenix Guard and White Lions, so use them to pressure him as best you can.

Slann is still a powerhouse but you probably won't feel overwhelmed like he used to be able to do. If he takes the "all signature spells" ability, be weary of him casting Miasma when you think he's trapped- he might use Smoke and Mirrors to escape.

Isn't the only thing he can trade places with another Slaan?

[English 2000]

Watch out for Wyssans spam with skink priests.
Remember that the Slaan can cast spells through skink priests so his range and LOS will be huge. I don't know the exact rule so ask your opponent ahead of time.

Saurus can be pulled out of position because of the predatory fighter rules.

Krox can be hit in skrox units now.

Ripperdactyls are apparently nasty, not sure what they do though.

Reaver bow with potion of strength is good if he has the ethereal Slaan. It can't join units to hide.

[cptcosmic]

hello my friends..

in 2 days, i am going to play against the new lizardmen in a friendly game..
so.. the only rest is that named heroes/lords are not Allowed, a 2500 point game...
so now i need som help with troops and magic...

lvl 4 shadow
lvl 1 death
lvl 1 metal
bsb
block of spearmen
3 x 10 archer
5 reavers
28 white lions
24 phoenix guards
3 bolt trowers

what do you think?

metal is for the good armour saves they have, and shadow/death is for debuff and ultra kill.. ::)

all depends on the list you are fighting against.

all LM lists usually have plenty of annoying chaff thus having some sort of magic missiles, chaff and shooting will help. you have shooting, only 1 reaver unit as chaff and no magic missiles. I also think you invested too much into mages. I would take shadow lvl4+ high lvl2 support, the 3rd mage is not worth the points you invest. high with ring of fury covers shadow lore weaknesses and lack of magic missile and beside tempest (which you can exchange for soul quench) all the spells you can roll for are good.

[Stormie]

Isn't the only thing he can trade places with another Slaan?

Nah, any infantry character. It wouldn't be a very smart idea otherwise

[PadForce]

What about facing a High magic loremaster Slann. I am due to have a fight tomorrow and am worried about Vauls, the new flames of the phenoix spell and him using the ethereal spell to move 40 saurus 20 inches.

Anything else to be wary of here?

[Kourosh84]

I play lizardmen a lot. They win the big combats with spell buffs. Make sure you have a high mage to drain magic his unit and soul quench his skinks. Try to get your phoenix to charge his salamanders if he has any because those can do crazy damage if you don't have dragon princes. Use lots of archers to help with those pesky skinks. They seem to have trouble vs big things so phoenix and dargons bother them a lot.

[Scalenex1]

Metal will be useless against them. Unless he fields a unit of Cold Ones but you have WLs to counter.
He'll probably have Scar Vets on Cold Ones in which case they'll have 2++ against flaming attacks.
I would drop the metal mage for more redirectors.

Not necessarily true, the new Bastiladons are armor save 2+. Ancient Stegadons are armor save 3+. Cold One Cavalry is Armor save 2+, Ripperdactlyls, Carnosaurs, Stegadons, Troglodons are all armor save 4.

Only the Scar Vet itself would have a save versus flaming attacks, and that's only if he took a Dragonbane Gem or Dragon Helm.

does any lizardmen have regenation?

but what are the chances that he may use temple guards and ancient stegadon? big?

There are no LM with Regeneration without taking the Lore of Life or BRB magic items.

The odds of seeing Temple Guard and Ancient Stegadons are high. Both units got stronger and cheaper in the new book.

Here is a very good overview of what is in the new LM book:

http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12415

Here is an LM vs. HE Tactica written by Lustria's handsomest poster:

http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic ... 869#p84869

[Sinsigel]

Beware of Slanns with high Magic Loremaster.
Arcane Unforging is one of the few means in the entire game that can nullify BotWD.
I recommend dispelling it at all cost. If he succeeds, he might attempt to cast fiery convocation to WLs
while swapping the arcane unforging with searing doom to roast the Silver Helms.
A bad dice luck at last saturday in the exact situation above led me to defeat.

[Stormie]

Here is an LM vs. HE Tactica written by Lustria's handsomest poster:

http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic ... 869#p84869

It's a really in-depth article but I fear you are far too grounded in theory and not in the actual game that we play. You say you don't expect to see many Silver Helms but put it this way, at a small tournament last weekend with 3 High Elf players, we had around 60 Silver Helm models between us (one of those armies was a proper cavalry army, the other two were combos).

[Scalenex1]

I played the old HEs a lot but I haven't played the new HEs, yet. I appreciate the feedback I can edit the article appropriately.

[Rychek]

Here is an LM vs. HE Tactica written by Lustria's handsomest poster:

http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic ... 869#p84869

I think you forgot "self proclaimed" on that title!

[Tethlis]

Thanks for taking the time to post that up. The issue that comes with up most online "tacticas" is that they tend to summarize what's in an armybook, rather than give advice on how to counter and beat the opposing army.

-I noticed the terminology of "redirecting" is notably lacking from this concept. In particular, dialogue about Reavers and Eagles has fairly little to offer about redirecting. One of the things that makes High Elves as competitive as they are is that it's pretty easy for us to win the redirector war against most opponents in the opening turns. Unless you're reaching Skaven or VC levels of utterly ridiculous redirecting power, High Elves are probably going to take control of the board in the opening turns unless they're seeing a Lizardmen Core consisting almost entirely of Skinks. It's important to emphasize how valuable Skinks are in a stand-and-shoot as they redirect High Elf units, because you're not only grinding away at high-points-per wound models, but you're also using cheap units to stop them from getting where they want to go.

-Saurus units generally can't take on High Elf combat blocks 1 v 1 unless the Augments are massively stacked in one side's favor. Last night, I got 21 White Lions and a Frost Phoenix into a Temple Guard unit with Scar Vet and Slann that was buffed with Timewarp... And the White Lions and Phoenix went through the whole unit in 3 rounds of combat, broke the Slann and ran them down to clinch the game. Lizardmen heavily rely on "free" sources of damage like spells, impact hits and shooting when it comes to fighting Elves. White Lions in particular are almost perfectly formulated to tear through Saurus, since WS5 and Strength 6 means hitting on a 3+, killing on a 2+... Odds that are about as sure as anything can get in Fantasy, and the advantages the Saurus do have (multiple Attacks, respectable Strength/Toughness) are mitigated by advantages like the Frost Phoenix and the deluge of Elven units attacking in 3 Ranks.

For Lizardmen to see proper success here, they need to own the Movement and Shooting phases completely. They can't rely on simply shooting up Archers or RBTs, because a smart Elf player will insulate the RBTs in the middle of his line so that Chameleon Skinks will be forced to deploy far from them and reduce the likelihood that the RBTs will be removed first turn. If the Elves get a turn of shooting, good Ballistic Skill means that even Chameleon Skinks are unlikely to live more than one turn due to solid Elven Ballistic Skill or the speedy flexibility of units like Silver Helms or Reavers which will be happy to charge, brave the stand-and-shoot, then murder the Chamo skinks in close combat. Killing skinks is one of the things that even the cheapest bow-equipped Elf is quite good at doing compared to the typically powerful warmachines of other armies, so Lizardmen players need to really invest in playing well with their Skinks and trying to establish table control early on.

[pk-ng]

Metal will be useless against them. Unless he fields a unit of Cold Ones but you have WLs to counter.
He'll probably have Scar Vets on Cold Ones in which case they'll have 2++ against flaming attacks.
I would drop the metal mage for more redirectors.

Not necessarily true, the new Bastiladons are armor save 2+. Ancient Stegadons are armor save 3+. Cold One Cavalry is Armor save 2+, Ripperdactlyls, Carnosaurs, Stegadons, Troglodons are all armor save 4.

Only the Scar Vet itself would have a save versus flaming attacks, and that's only if he took a Dragonbane Gem or Dragon Helm.

That's it only 2 types of units that people will bring. Most people won't use metal against 4+ AS units (i know I won't as I have RBTs). How many LM players are going to field Cold Ones Cavalry? They are still expensive for a "heavy cavalry" unit. Don't think people will field much of them.

[Eltherion]

I find the lizzies are a good match up for us as they have low Iniative.

Silverhelms are great for charging and clearing away Skinks.

Dragon Princes can also chaff clear or hold up Monsters or flank big blocks

White Lions anvils or Monster killers

Using HE combined arms Magic then shoot the key targets softening them up before your troops go in.

Lore of Metal is still good vs. Lizzies, though maybe not optimal. I use this Lore on a solo Lvl 4 Book of Hoeth.

Enchanted Blades: Great on White Lions or Swordmasters especially (makes up for their lack of re-rolls).
Plague of Rust: More heavily armored units such as Cold One's, but also temple guard or Saurus
Final Transmutation: Saurus and Temple Guard blocks* The best spell
Searing Doom: Cold One's and Stegadons, Temple Guard or Saurus
Golden Hounds: more expensive Searing Doom so 2nd choice
Robes: ok for giving better Armor vs. Skink shooting

[Sarcon]

Take at least one high mage with the drain magic sig to 6 dice when you need it. Lizardmen live on buffs, especially if he takes a Life or Light slann.

[Rh5319]

I'm at a tournament playing lizardmen for the first time tomorrow am - he has slann + 25 saurus, 5x skink skirmishers, camo skinks, 2x salamanders, 2x3 terradons, bastiladon. Scar vet on cold one

My army is

Prince giants blade 1+ armour
Lvl4 high BoH
BSB on foot

8dragon princes BOTWD
20 Phoenix guard
2x 15 archers
3x 5 reavers with one of each equipment combo
2x Frostheart

Any tips on how I should go about things - hide the Phoenixes central to avoid camo skinks? Am I best charging the skink skirmishers and risking failing charges, or just fly full pelt up with the phoenixes to try to hide in combat.

Ideal spells - soul quench, drain magic, fiery convocation, arcane unforging?

[Razzat]

Lizardmen was my main army, I can tell you for certain that Lore of Death and Lore of Shadows are the ones we really struggle with. Purple sun can wipe out most things fast, saurus are Inititave 1, TG initiative 2, Bastiliadon initiative 1.

Just keep 6 dicing the bug purple sun and I promise you it will go off and you will win the game, we have no defence against it what so ever, unless we bubble speed of light from lore of light but most people run with loremaster and high magic these days.