MSU (infantry) style Elves with new book?

[Celoril Le'fer]

**Warning: Mathhammer and speculation ahead**--- What are your guys opinion on the potential of MSU style High Elf infantry armies with the new books. Yes, at the moment this would be based on speculation and mathhammer.

I have always liked MSU style elves. So after discussing some of the changes with my friends, I did this calculation (the Bestigors were appropriate for the discussion) and was a bit saddened (I'm still very excited of the happy horsie situation, though):

White Lions Horde (40 man) attacking Bestigors
Re-Roll 22,96 dead
Extra Rank 22,78 dead

Sword Master Horde (40 pers) attacking Bestigors
Re-Roll 24,30 dead
Extra Rank 22,67 dead

Meaning 40 people now hit as hard as 30 before?
If we extrapolating to smaller units (say 10) and assuming all attack at full capacity:

White Lions attacking Bestigors
Re-Roll 15,56
Extra Rank 11,67

Sword Masters attacking Bestigors
Re-Roll 6,52
Extra Rank 4,89

This does not look too good now, does it?
However the larger amount of attacks of big units benefit more from buff-spells/enemy debuffing. The discussion of hordes, buffs and so on would require knowledge of points costs and so on, and is irrelevant discussing MSU-style.

What is your predicition of whole MSU style armies, and MSU units in a context with the coming book? Is the MSU style even more a old concept? Could MSU infantry complement Happy Horsie Armies?

Regards,
Celoril Le'fer

[Scarr, Chosen One]

Maybe poking units for damage using Breath and shooting (and magic probably) will make them easier to take down. We also will have practically the fastest army around, so we can choose a LOT of combats and multicharges. Mathhammer doesn't do it justice enough in the long run. MSU might be good, but I fear that units would die easily(ish) and that it would be too much Wood Elfian style.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Sword Master has been repping MSU pretty hard this edition, and I can only imagine his list getting better.
The points drop means he'll be able to get more bodies on the field, whether this means adjusting his units to 5x3,
to make use of the extra rank, or by adding another whole unit of something. I'm sure he'll work out how to do it best.

[~Milliardo~]

No panicking, please. It gives us a migraine. :3

Drop the units down to 9, add a musician to make up for the lack of a frontal arc, add a champion, and run it 3x3 - Swordmaster Cube. You get to use the new martial prowess rule, and you can fit more cubes into the face of an enemy unit - against an enemy horde, run 3 cubes into it, and then two chariots/Ice Phoenii into the side.

The new force organization and the amount of identical units you can take might hurt this a little, but you can do this with swords, lions or phoenix guard and have each one perform different jobs, mixing and matching them on the fly as you charge against the right type of enemy.

[Celoril Le'fer]

Elessehta - Yes, it will be very interesting to see how he'll do it. And wether or not a different restriction to multiple special and rare units still will apply to elves.

Scarr - I also have this feeling that their "massive damage" asset will be lost reducing their use. But as you say dot shaped Swordmasters and White Lions in vacuum is something very far from reality...

~Milliardo~ - Yes a cube shape, would be something interesting to try now. Especially to target enemy characters. And for the number of points they would still be effective. Also flanking unit would be a very good use for these...

Interesting times.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Celoril Le'fer!

You can count on me to keep trying and see how MSU army is going to work with the new book. Obviously it does not benefit that much from the new rules and inclusion of some of new magic items or characters. It might be just the first impression however. It is true that Swordmasters and White Lions, main hard hitters of the army, are going to be less efficient in small numbers due to lack of re-rolls and not always striking first, even with their I5.

But they are still very skilled warriors and I think they can still be of great use. I am considering, however, making the units a little bigger. Maybe 12 will be enough. Or maybe as big as 15? That needs to be tested.

I have written in my army list topic that my first step is to recalculate the point costs for the units and see how much I can really save. First estimate is 100-150. Now the choice will be either adding a new unit or making existing ones bigger. Then play some games and see how it works.

What are the happy horsies armies you are referring to? I am sure we will see much more cavalry (and miraculously people now see the usefulness of light horse too ) but they too might be fielded in different configurations.

All in all I am optimistic that MSU armies are going to be viable choice. I am very curious myself how my own army is going to evolve, as it did before and I am sure it will again.

Cheers!

[Eltherion]

Ellyrian Reavers and Silver Helms being Core may be good for MSU lists as well.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Of course! And believe me when I tell you that it is also something I am thinking about

[HERO]

For MSU-based play and 13pt Sword Masters, I would love to see enough 7x1 or 6x1 units running around the battlefiled. Although they lose their re-rolls and thus are weaker, they're cheaper and thus more numerous (though not by much).

I'm eager to try 5x1 Sword Masters and 3x3 White Lions in the up coming weeks. Even 4x3 White Lions is good for a few more points. I'm still gonna call it Lion block, I think.

[Eltherion]

2 x 10 SM's with Musos you save 40pts over the existing same units, that pays for 1 of the Eagles or Magic Gear for your Achmage.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

At the same time that adds 3 more SM's to the field! I am wondering if going for 3x5 units, the same way as sea guard, might not be the new way of MSU. From one point of view such a unit has as many attacks as 2 x 7 formation but is easier to move and benefits from the new version of martial prowess. You also might keep that second rank for longer which sometimes is a good thing to have.

Then the disadvantage is that such a regiment will be more vulnerable to template weapons and of course, more expensive (in particular with a standard). Hence it would be more difficult to decide to sacrifice it if there is a need for such a move.

Cheers!

[Celoril Le'fer]

Swordmaster of Hoeth - The happy horsies was intended to refer to cavalry heavy armies. Had a tad too much coffee earlier... *_* Seeing cavalry gain some strength again, adds the happy part.
I will be keenly following your writings!

Eltherion - I wouldn't be surprised if cavalry got a lot of new followers. As such I assume that army type will be getting loads of threads soon. Very well illustrated, with the additonal eagle.

HERO - the lion cubes would make very interesting road blocks. Especially against non-hordes if you can make certain that at least one survives.

Those 3x5 Swordmasters have a nice feel and look to them too...

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Celoril Le'fer,

I agree that our cavalry is now a thing to consider. It was before (at least for me) but now it has that distinct advantage over SM's and WL's that they hit as hard but with re-rolls to hit and they have more armor to speak about. On the other hand, obviously, if they get charged or in subsequent turns of combat, they are in trouble. I find it great because both troop types have significant advantages and disadvantages and I hope it will result in more variety in armies.

When I asked about happy horsies armies, however, I was wondering if you had any in particular or just cavalry based in general.

Cheers!

[Elithmar]

I'd love to do an MSU army but nah - I have too many phoenix guard already.

[rothgar13]

MSU? Maybe, though I think its potency has decreased with the loss of re-rolls. MMU, on the other hand, just got a heck of a lot better. Consider the following scenarios:

Old Book:
21 White Lions, FC (7 x 3) - 13.33 hits when hitting on 3+, 11.25 hits when hitting on 4+

New Book:
21 White Lions, FC (7 x 3) - 14.67 hits when hitting on 3+, 11 hits when hitting on 4+

Basically treading water against WS5+ foes, and an actual boost when hitting WS4 or less. I'll take that deal.

[Prince of Spires]

MSU? Maybe, though I think its potency has decreased with the loss of re-rolls. MMU, on the other hand, just got a heck of a lot better. Consider the following scenarios:

Old Book:
21 White Lions, FC (7 x 3) - 13.33 hits when hitting on 3+, 11.25 hits when hitting on 4+

New Book:
21 White Lions, FC (7 x 3) - 14.67 hits when hitting on 3+, 11 hits when hitting on 4+

Basically treading water against WS5+ foes, and an actual boost when hitting WS4 or less. I'll take that deal.

True. Only issue with it is that if 5 WL are dead then the numbers change significantly. The old book remains the same, but the new book loses 5 attack and thuse 2-ish hits. This is ofset a bit by the pointsdrop, but still the case.

As for MSU I can see WL cubes becoming interesting. 3X3 for 9 attacks on a very small frontage. And stubborn, so ranks aren't that big a deal. I think it will make a great support unit.

Rod

[cptcosmic]

the White Lion cubes sound like a great idea when you combine them with chariots, phoenix and cavarly. the White Lions are stubborn, they should most likely hold with the BSB close even when they lose combat and 3x3 allows you to adapt to enemy size and leave enough space for counter charges from chariots, cavarly and other stuff.

I would field a eagle noble bsb with that setup, to make sure that the noble is where you need him. he can take the new crown, charmed shield and lion cloak along with a reaver bow. this should make him fairly durable against ballistic based shooting and cannons.

[rothgar13]

The problem I have with the 3 x 3 Lion Cube is survivability. It's just not that hard to deal 9 Wounds to a T3 unit, even if its frontage is only 60mm. They might not run, but they run the risk of being slain to the man. 5 x 3 is as low as I'd go.

[Prince of Spires]

The problem I have with the 3 x 3 Lion Cube is survivability. It's just not that hard to deal 9 Wounds to a T3 unit, even if its frontage is only 60mm. They might not run, but they run the risk of being slain to the man. 5 x 3 is as low as I'd go.

true, but if the unit has a 3+ save vs shooting and fights on such a small frontage it's not as easy as it seems. It takes a decent combat unit I would say. And if only 1 of them remains behind then they're stubborn. For only 117 pts it's a great support unit I think.

Rod

[rothgar13]

A monster like a Chimera or a Hydra slays that unit pretty effortlessly as well, actually. Being infantry in that small a size is a liability.

[~Milliardo~]

A monster like a Chimera or a Hydra slays that unit pretty effortlessly as well, actually. Being infantry in that small a size is a liability.

That's why you don't fight a Chimera or a Hydra with a unit like that by itself.

[rothgar13]

With monsters that mobile, I find you rarely have a choice in the matter.

[~Milliardo~]

With monsters that mobile, I find you rarely have a choice in the matter.

Have you been following Swordmaster's MSU thread? Some good info in there on handling that problem.

I'm really glad that our RBT are cheaper for that reason though - its unlikely to kill the big gribbly before it hits, but if we can knock a few wounds off it there's a much better chance of killing it before it can strike once it does.

[rothgar13]

Hey man, if you can make it work, more power to you. I think it's an unnecessary risk to take, especially when increasing the size of the units a little is promising so many returns. While we're on the subject, shooting with armor penetration ability (like Organ Guns and Volley Guns) also worries me - that 3+ save vs. shots is probably not saving the White Lion Cube from getting wiped, or at least being removed as a threat.

[Prince of Spires]

True again of course. But it doesn't have to. With only 120-ish points in a cube that can do some serious damage, you will have multiple threats on the board. The idea is you have (for instance) 3 cubes, 2 phoenixes, 3 small units of SM etc. Suddenly, what is that armour piercing wm going to shoot? What will the hydra charge and can it even get the charge with a bunch of flying stuff on the board? When you have a bucketload of small units that don't cost a lot of pts on the board, losing 1 is no big deal. But they offer a lot of flexibility and great options. And there are very few things in the game that can actually pack 9 i5, s6 attacks in such a small space.

In the end anything can be killed. It's just the case of the effort and utility involved that mattes.

Rod

[Irishranger]

Hate to ruin the day of some people but nobody is going to run lions 3x3 as the unit size went up to 10+ same as phoenix guard. SM are still 5+ though.

[~Milliardo~]

Hate to ruin the day of some people but nobody is going to run lions 3x3 as the unit size went up to 10+ same as phoenix guard. SM are still 5+ though.

Ah, shoot - I was afraid of that. Oh well. :3

[rothgar13]

Well then, there's your MSU application of Swordmasters - S5 1-wide spike strips.

[Baeronvonbleat]

I may build 10x Lion cubes with a spare guy in the back rank. Sword masters tend to be better in 1x5 (or 1x7) lines anyway. And Phoenix guard are still best in fully ranked units (though they only got better this edition, as they kept re-rolls, and gained the extra rank of damage).

Cheap checkboard squads are FUN!

Add in 10 man silver helm "spear units", and maybe one or two units of spears/seaguard/archers for ranked units, and you're all set!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

A monster like a Chimera or a Hydra slays that unit pretty effortlessly as well, actually. Being infantry in that small a size is a liability.

Then don't let them!

With monsters that mobile, I find you rarely have a choice in the matter.

Nobody said it is going to be easy. Also, you can make them pay.

Hate to ruin the day of some people but nobody is going to run lions 3x3 as the unit size went up to 10+ same as phoenix guard. SM are still 5+ though.

In that case we can have Lion Cubes with a Tail! I think it fits the theme even better.

Very often, when MSU topic is brought up, I see people posting that it does not make sense, as the units will be wiped out by certain other regiments or that they are going to be shot down. I have an impression there is a misunderstanding that MSU somehow is miraculously prevent you from taking casualties. It will not! You will bleed, always. Unlike in the case of the big units there is no option not to lose points. What is more you are often in the need to sacrifice regiments as players do not always are so polite and walk into an obvious trap to let you kill their units.

MSU is not an approach which is going to grant you a victory by default. In every game, even these that looked easy and ended up with big wins, I had to sweat to make it work. It is the army that risks a lot and punishes mistakes severely (you will see that in my reports).

It is not an approach for feint hearts and you need some guts to get that glory But it does work. So if you claim it does not or it is not worthy, I simply disagree.

The fact that certain units do not benefit from new rules as much as if they did in bigger formations does not mean they are useless. I think it is just the problem of being used to all these nice re-rolls and hitting first no matter what. It was easy to take it for granted. Now you don't have it but Swordmasters and White Lions still hit fast, faster than many other units out there. The thing that will change is that they might not be used in a reckless way and simply pushed in front of some units knowing that they will kill them anyway, charged or not. On the other hand, units like knights of Empire, will still avoid a frontal charge against a unit of 10 lions anyway. Unless they are in big number and have characters with them.

There are tough armies out there for sure. They were tough before and I also lost to them (see jwg20/Gatti army with a dragon and 2 terrors). I might lose again. But my experience tells me that my losses are not due to small units or ability or not to re-roll to hit rolls. It is always a combination of my mistakes and how the enemy exploits them.

If they have Chimeras I will try to avoid certain combats and use the tools I have (flaming attacks, magic, shooting)
If they have war machines, I will do my best to make them pay for whatever casualties they are going to inflict.

But I will not say I am going to lose before the game starts because if I did there would be no reason to play at all.

Cheers!