Best up to 40 pt Item?

[clifford]

Ok, heres the situation. I am involved in a campaign and I have access to one "free" magic item worth up to 40 points. It does not count toward the charater's point limit but otherwise must be legal.

I can put it on one one of the following characters.

Cavalry Prince (generally in silver helm unit)
Barded Elven Steed
Dragon Armor
Shield
Giant Blade
Helm of Fortune

or High Magic Archmage lv 4 (generally in archer unit)
Annulian Crystal
(cannot take ring of fury for campaign reasons)

I could add a ward to either, but I am thinking about loremaster cloak for protection.

Any better ideas out there?

[SpellArcher]

Talisman of Loec.

[clifford]

Yeah, I was thinking about that, but the other data that I didnt give you is that when you earn magic items the value is decided at d6x10 pts. So I am thinking about keeping Loec in my pocket for a "bad" roll.

[SpellArcher]

The thing is Clifford, several of us who run combat Princes consider Loec almost essential. The ability to put a couple of wounds on almost anything, when you desperately need to, is golden. On the Giant Blade Prince it's horrendous. Has your guy not faced an enemy yet that the Prince badly needs to take out ASAP?

[clifford]

That is really valuable feedback, thanks. This is my first time running a cavalry prince (part of the reason I made sure to include him in my "named" characters) and have only had 2 battles with him. So I haven't hit that ASAP need yet, although I know about it in theory from all the batreps.

Is everyone in agreement with Loec? I would be stupid to turn away the wisdom of the boards!

[SpellArcher]

It's one of those things that sometimes isn't obvious until you use it.

But consider you re-roll to hit vs anything (No ASL, No I10 rubbish), you re-roll to wound (with S7) vs anything, the enemy re-rolls all armour saves (with -4). All Wards/Regen are re-rolled too. It's not unusual to be putting 3 wounds on enemy Lords.

[Ictoagn]

It depends somewhat on the campaign rules and, in particular, how likely you are to get another item. If you will only have to go a game or two without the Talisman, you might be better off with giving your Prince a ward and getting the Talisman next time. For most campaigns, including the Badlands campaign you may be using, where you will have to go a long time before getting another item, you will want to go with the Talisman.

[Tethlis]

If you weren't already running High Magic, my vote would go to the Ring of Corin. There are just so many scary magic items out there, and being able to nullify one of them is too valuable. Given that you're already running High Magic though, my backup vote would be Sigil of Asuryan. Having a scroll in any list is great. Having a scroll as well as Annulian Crystal is fantastic. Having a scroll, Annulian Crystal, and the ability to nullify an enemy spell... Amazing. That all depends on whether or not you face a lot of heavy magic. If you already have good control over the magic phase, then I agree with Talisman of Loec.

[finreir]

only one choice the 40 point item should be the loremasters cloak.
2+ ward for the whole helm bus(includign prince) vs magic is absoloutely massive!

[Hortennse]

I'd think given the benefit is a free item, you would logically want to pick the best possible 40 point item? In my opinion this is Annulian Crystal.

[SpellArcher]

These are great items, no danger. But the Cavalry Prince can work without them if he has to. Not so Talisman of Loec.

Because so much rides on the ability of the Prince to deal with almost anything, Loec is priceless. Sometimes he really needs to kill things double-quick and Loec is the only way to do this.

[Furion]

only one choice the 40 point item should be the loremasters cloak.
2+ ward for the whole helm bus(includign prince) vs magic is absoloutely massive!

Doesn't work that well vs miasma and signature from heaven. Or enfeebling foe.

cheers
Furion

[Keith]

only one choice the 40 point item should be the loremasters cloak.
2+ ward for the whole helm bus(includign prince) vs magic is absoloutely massive!

Doesn't work that well vs miasma and signature from heaven. Or enfeebling foe.

cheers
Furion

Really furion, you don't get a ward save against stat debuffs? I'll have to jot that down, how did I miss this before???

[ImrikTheDragonLord]

Hey clifford,

Seeing the rest of the list/lore on Lvl 4 could help to pick the item, but still, my 2 cents:

-On the Prince you could add Other Tricksters Shard, Gem of Courage, Potion of Foolhardiness or as mentioned, the Talisman of Loec, I'm not quite fan of the Talisman though because of the wound he takes back, but still, a very good item; I love it on Swordmasters' champion.

-On the Lvl4, as you already have Crystal, I would consider Ruby Ring and Dragonbane Gem, I know it's two items but only 30 points .
Cloak is solid, but, from my point of view, it depends on the meta over your region/campaign and how much you struggle with magic normally in your games.

Hope it helps .

Cheers,

I.

[jwg20]

Loremaster cloak. In a heartbeat. Death magic is too common (at least in my area) and even metal vs a helm bus is terrible to deal with. Talisman of loec is useless if the prince doesn't survive to combat because he (and/or his unit) get magicked off the table. It also allows you to focus your dispel dice to dispel augments/hexes rather than having to save dice to dispel the death snipe or metal sig at your general or his unit. It changes the nature of your opponent's magic phase dramatically, particularly with how popular death and metal are.

Besides, loec is becoming less and less valuable with the increase in popularity of nurgle daemon princes. 4W model that boosts wounds with spells and is unbreakable, no loec prince will be dealing with him anytime soon even forcing all those re rolls.

As you said, save loec for when you roll a 1 on your spoils of victory table and only get to pick a 10 pt item. Picking up magical items is pretty common in the campaign rules honestly, so don't waste a decent roll on a 10 pt item.

[SpellArcher]

Seredain wrote a piece here recently on how he can handle Death magic. It's an issue but he can deal with it. Searing Doom is not so bad because the Helms are ablative armour at the end of the day. So long as those two characters get into combat unscathed they're very hard to beat.

The DP is a test but he'll be much less happy engaging the Loec Prince if RBT can shoot a couple of Wounds off him. Sure the metagame changes but we get new tools in six weeks.

[finreir]

only one choice the 40 point item should be the loremasters cloak.
2+ ward for the whole helm bus(includign prince) vs magic is absoloutely massive!

Doesn't work that well vs miasma and signature from heaven. Or enfeebling foe.

cheers
Furion

you are right Furion but then I would have thought everyone realised this.
Loremasters cloak in my opinion allows you to focus dispelling buffs and debuffs rather than damage dispelling against
Death
Metal
Light
and many other lores
At least on the UK meta death and metal are prevelant to at least 50% of the lists in a tournament.
To discount the damage from them is massive, let the spell go often 6 diced by them or close to putting their wizard at risk.
Then you can stop the soul blight or doom and darkness or enchanted blade or glitterign robe that follows it up.
Thats my thinking but 80% of the time 40points is a magic number for me and its loremasters cloak!
Spell archer says it doesnt matter if the bus is dead and the characters get in i disagree strongly, the worst thing that could happen is magic kills enough of the bus to get rid of lookout sir and then you get warmachined or next that your lord gets death sniped early.
Its your call but if i was running a cav bus, World Dragon or Loremasters is a must depending on how you want to run your magic, for me it just seems logical but its only my opinion and as i dont rate cav busses particuarly then I guess I may have this wrong.

[SpellArcher]

The key thing is getting into combat after the Helms die but before the characters get sniped. For Death magic, Seredain's post on pg 2 of this thread is worth a read:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?=66&t=43734

[Paricidas]

The key thing is getting into combat after the Helms die but before the characters get sniped. For Death magic, Seredain's post on pg 2 of this thread is worth a read:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?=66&t=43734

If I could Play as well as Seredain does, I could perhaps agree with him. But you realy Need to know what you are doing if you try to protect a prince from death Magic by simply being in Close combat all the time. Try to pull that one off against a druchii sorceress, and you will die faster than you can say "spell Homunculus". Chaos Princes with the lore of death may also be a slight Problem...

[SpellArcher]

Seredain's a smart cookie and I think if he thought he couldn't handle the Death issue, he'd change his list to cope, he has several times for other reasons.

But soon this will all be academic of course.

[SpellArcher]

Posts deleted.

Be nice guys.

SA

[Findolfin]

Op situation is not very clear.

Looks to me you already have giant blade, helm of fortune and annulian crystal.

Your builds must remain legal, so that leaves you barely 15 points on the Prince and enough on the Archmage for up to 40 points.

As a rule of thumb, you always need to maximise points.
My first choice would be the crystal, but you have it.
Then yes, either the cloak or crown of command but it would have to go on archmage which is somewhat not useful.

Given all theses parameters, you might as well take the reaver bow on your archmage which is closest thing to ring of fury ring. This is unless you can swap some of your magic gear around.

As far as the silver helms bus protection go, adding another rank proven to me to be a better solution all around than trying to protect a low body count. More wounds is often better than most other protection solutions. It also gives you better CR and chances to remain steadfast when things go wrong. More costly perhaps but does not forces you to fill your characters items to protect them.

[jwg20]

^ Findolfin, this is part of a blood in the badlands campaign, so it is a bonus magical item that is not taken out of the character's normal maximum allotment.

@ SpellArcher, I am aware Seredain thinks he can handle it, but at the same time, I do not recall him ever facing a LV 4 death mage that is mounted in any respect. Point me to a battle report if I am wrong, but I feel I am correct here. Theory hammer only gets you so far. He is a good general, but until you test the theories you write about online, they aren't worth the paper they're printed on, regardless of who comes up with them.

Also, it is not as if your opponent can't keep you out of combat easily. For Seredain's tactic to work, you need to be in combat in your opponent's turn, which means he needs to charge something that can survive a charge from his prince, BSB, and bus, which limits it basically to ranked infantry. What if your opponent is a good player and instead of letting your bus get tied up with ranked infantry, he charge blocks you with chaff you will certainly kill in one round? Sure, maybe one character can charge out beyond the chaff, but once one charges out, the other is locked in the unit and cannot also charge out, so the character left behind will be at the mercy of at least one round of death snipes. Or, what if the only ranked infantry unit likely to stand has a support unit with GWs to their flank, ready to counter charge the bus in the flank and swing combat? It is actually quite easy to work around this tactic he came up with, and any general with any semblance of competency will easily be able to figure out how to prevent such a tactic and bring death snipes to bear, particularly if its open lists and he knows the bus has no protection whatsoever.

Also note, his theory only holds true for slow death mages. Thanks to the 3+ ward for warriors and daemon princes in general, mounted or flying death mages are becoming more and more common. The "stay out of range" tactic is losing viability rapidly with the release of warriors and daemons. I even see quite a few pegasus mounted death mages for dark elves to compensate for the short range of death spells. I have even run a LV 2 death necromancer in a black knight bus with my blender vampire to bring him to range faster (and to give him a LD 10 death snipe), which combined with my plethora of chaff ensures that I can prevent charges of most things into my bus and open up opportunities for death snipes. How do you stay out of range when the death mage you are trying to avoid is faster and more maneuverable than you are?

As I said, it isn't worth the paper its printed on. Particularly since a single caress will deal 2 wounds to either the prince or the BSB on average (and this has a 24" range). Fate will kill them on anything but a bad roll (this is only 12" range, but read above about maneuverable death mages).

As death magic is probably the most common lore in my meta, trust me when I tell you that death magic is the reason you don't take an important character and neglect a ward save. We have the best anti magic items in the game, and one of them is cheaper than the BRB item that only gives MR(3). If you have points for it, I suggest going for that. Otherwise, be prepared to park your characters in a corner the second you face a deathmage, because the "be in combat" tactic won't work against most people.

[SpellArcher]

It's not just Theoryhammer. Seredain has run his build since the start of 8th and has faced Death magic several times. He feels his set-up can take it on. You disagree based on your own experiencr jwg20. That's all there is to it really. If he'd been around lately he might post a reply. I don't run his build so I can't , really.

[Shannar, Sealord]

It's not just Theoryhammer. Seredain has run his build since the start of 8th and has faced Death magic several times. He feels his set-up can take it on. You disagree based on your own experiencr jwg20. That's all there is to it really. If he'd been around lately he might post a reply. I don't run his build so I can't , really.

But if you read the post that you linked he's not faced mounted ones all that often, and they bother him more then most things. In fact he mentions facing one twice in that bit of reading, and in one (a dark elf on peg actually) it managed to kill his prince. In the end he managed to kill the mage and pulled off a win, but it still shows he can be vulnerable. That's also and old post before some the the current books that jwg mentions.

I often play with a mounted prince. Honestly it's easier when you're playing against big blocks of infantry. I guess the thing to remember is that you're just as vulnerable to redirection as any other cav bus. You need to be ready to deal with that. I think one of the biggest reasons that it works so well is that people don't expect it out of a HE army. Despite that fact that it's always been around it's much less common then it used to be. There are some good generals out there who struggle the first time they face something unexpected, but adjust well. In a campaign they should have plenty of time to adjust. The list still can work (and always will I think), but like anything else as the game is shifting you need to be ready to adjust the list to address the new threats. Even just in my group the newest book has lead to more maneuverable death mages for our guys who play chaos, as a result I've boosted my magic defense in my cav prince army a bit. I don't yet know if the trend will last. I guess it just depends on how good the rest of us are at dealing with them.

[SpellArcher]

To be fair I don't think Seredain has played since the Warriors book so maybe the list needs further adjusting, I don't know. But shortly it won't matter either way.

[Shannar, Sealord]

To be fair I don't think Seredain has played since the Warriors book so maybe the list needs further adjusting, I don't know. But shortly it won't matter either way.

Well shortly it will be getting adjusted, like it or not, and maybe in a very helpful way. Even if helms don't go to core but reavers do I'm quite sure it'll help my cav list out a lot. I wouldn't go all reaver core I don't think, except as a themed all mounted list perhaps. But regardless of what changes come in the new book I don't see a combined arms list becoming something that isn't effective. Maybe not optimal, but it'll always be playable even in a competitive environment for HE.

Overall I really didn't like the 7e book (but it's probably better then the 6e was) so I'm quite excited for the new one. Maybe I'll finally be able to stop saying that 4th was quite possibly our best book. It makes me sound old. 5th was our most interesting book considering fluff, rules, and weapons options on units. It was just a bit over the top compared to the competition (and that mostly got worse if you comped characters a bit- which a lot of people did by the end of 5th).

[Findolfin]

^ Findolfin, this is part of a blood in the badlands campaign, so it is a bonus magical item that is not taken out of the character's normal maximum allotment.

I see, thanks for the input. Theses campaigns sound fun, I'll look into that when I get more time to play as I fell under the radar theses days. Only a single game this year so far

So, if it does not count toward the limit, then yes the loremaster cloak sound better. The crown of command would have been a possible choice too but taking into account his character is more killy than tanky, it would not be as good.

However, are the characters setup definite at this point? If you can actually choose your gear , and have a 40 points bonus on top of it ( for 100 + 40 points ), I can think of several better choices than the current setup. Vambraces, armor of caledor, ToT shard, add the white sword ( Killing blows ) on foot, just to name one.

[Baeronvonbleat]

Golden crown, Loremaster Cloak, Sacred Incense on the Cavalry prince.

This leaves you with options if you get a low roll (Loec or Trickster), or buffing the mage with better gear with a high roll.

Did you have any other characters?

Also, can the item go on a champion instead of a character?