Small, special army VS large normal army

[Eirik]

I need some of you strategic masterminds to help me puzzle something out.

I'm running a campaign where you get 3 armies. A main (1500 points), a rear guard (1200 points) and a vanguard (700 points).

Terrain and other minor advantages are enough to balance some battles between a 1500 and 1200 point army, but not a 1500 and 700 point army. Do you think the following special rules would be enough to make the 700 point vanguard a threat to the 1500 point main army?

- vanguard ignores special/core % limits
- vanguard ignores requirement of 3 non-character units
- vanguard has lord/hero/rare caps raised to 50% each
- vanguard cannot take war machines
- when the vanguard fights, it only lasts 3 turns
- on the first turn, war machines cannot fire and skip the magic phase
- the vanguard gets +3 to go first

So the idea is that the vanguard can get in fast, kill some enemy units, and end the battle before taking too many casualties. An example would be a warriors of chaos vanguard composed of a block of chaos knights and a well equipped chaos lord. Assuming you get to go first you get 2 turns of movement before your enemy can shoot spells or war machines at you. By that time you are in melee and causing damage and cannot be shot at. At the end of 3 turns you have hopefully inflicted damage and not let the enemy regroup and kill you off.

Will it work? What would you put in your vanguard?

[Baeronvonbleat]

Vanguard armies get full points for models killed, but only reward points for full units being killed on their side.

Games are 6 turns long, starting with the end of Turn 3, roll a d6. If d6+Turns > 8, game ends.

Characters, banners, and generals killed by the vanguard army reward double points.

Tie goes to the vanguard. If a Vangaurd gets a draw, they win (the smaller force is assumed to have successfully scouted out the larger force without revealig the full extent of the war host.)

[dabber]

Are there additional scenarios (rulebook or other) involved, or just what we list here?

I suggest the Vanguard army simply chooses who goes first automatically. The +3 is kinda silly.

Limiting the turns is probably good. But I would go 4, at least.

1) Hold back some of the 1500 point army from deploying. For example, the 1500 point player picks one unit or character to start on the table, then the 700 point player picks one unit to start off the table, and keep alternating. Then they arrive turn 2.

2) The 1500 point army must deploy entirely first, then the Vanguard army deploys. The 1500 point army skips its first shooting phase, and gets d6+1 dice in its first magic phase (so Vanguard army gets the d6 for defense).

[Eirik]

Vanguard armies get full points for models killed, but only reward points for full units being killed on their side.

Games are 6 turns long, starting with the end of Turn 3, roll a d6. If d6+Turns > 8, game ends.

Characters, banners, and generals killed by the vanguard army reward double points.

Tie goes to the vanguard. If a Vangaurd gets a draw, they win (the smaller force is assumed to have successfully scouted out the larger force without revealig the full extent of the war host.)

I actually stack the win/lose AGAINST the vanguard. Both sides earn victory points as normal and the vanguard only wins if they can get double the points of the loser. The reason is that this is a map campaign and whoever wins a fight takes the territory. It makes sense for the vanguard to be able to swoop in, deal some kills and get out, but while hit-and-runs are great for inflicting casualties they aren't great at winning ground.

Are there additional scenarios (rulebook or other) involved, or just what we list here?

I suggest the Vanguard army simply chooses who goes first automatically. The +3 is kinda silly.

Limiting the turns is probably good. But I would go 4, at least.

1) Hold back some of the 1500 point army from deploying. For example, the 1500 point player picks one unit or character to start on the table, then the 700 point player picks one unit to start off the table, and keep alternating. Then they arrive turn 2.

2) The 1500 point army must deploy entirely first, then the Vanguard army deploys. The 1500 point army skips its first shooting phase, and gets d6+1 dice in its first magic phase (so Vanguard army gets the d6 for defense).

I think I will use most of these ideas in some form

So now I'm looking at using the following
* Non-vanguard armies roll for each unit, holding it back as reserves on a 1 (similar to the meeting engagement scenario)
* 4 turns instead of 6
* war machines and magic are skipped on each player's first turn
* A vanguard against a non-vanguard can choose who goes first
* A vanguard needs to double their victory points against a non-vanguard or they lose

[wisetiger7]

A lot of good ideas here.

I like the idea of special scenarios involving vanguards. The warbands/siege expansions to previous editions included small scenarios that add to benefits or drawbacks to a larger battle. Usually these scenarios are still fairly equal in point values. But if we tweak them a little, we can come up with some scenarios that can be applied to these situations.

For example, a vanguard can be sent out to accomplish a task such as destroying supplies in an enemy encampment. This would allow for the larger army to be at a disadvantage in a larger battle, such as -1 to movement because the troops didn’t get to eat properly or 100 less points because there aren’t enough weapons due to them being destroyed. My favorite is using a small force to attack the ‘command tent’, an objective that would ultimately allow the larger forces troops to be in disarray during deployment, because they didn’t get their orders from command.

[Eirik]

A lot of good ideas here.

I like the idea of special scenarios involving vanguards. The warbands/siege expansions to previous editions included small scenarios that add to benefits or drawbacks to a larger battle. Usually these scenarios are still fairly equal in point values. But if we tweak them a little, we can come up with some scenarios that can be applied to these situations.

For example, a vanguard can be sent out to accomplish a task such as destroying supplies in an enemy encampment. This would allow for the larger army to be at a disadvantage in a larger battle, such as -1 to movement because the troops didn’t get to eat properly or 100 less points because there aren’t enough weapons due to them being destroyed. My favorite is using a small force to attack the ‘command tent’, an objective that would ultimately allow the larger forces troops to be in disarray during deployment, because they didn’t get their orders from command.

Just for context, here's some points on how the campaign currently works.

Hex based map of territories. Each player has 3 armies, about 5 players.
Armies: Main (1500), Rear Guard (1200), Van (700 + special rules)
There are special scenario rules for siege type battles, you get defensive fortifications for being in certain territories or for having your army defend instead of moving. A vanguard army isn't going to do too well against walls and buildings and such because they will probably rely on shooting and cavalry, and this makes sense fluff-wise. Vans are encouraged to hit enemies in the field, not in their castles.
There is also a supply rule where you have to control a line of territories from your army to your capital or your army isn't supplied and suffers some disadvantages. Vans will be best at breaking supply lines because they get to move 2 hexes on the map instead of just 1.

[KJSparkz]

I like the whole vanguard concept and think that as the points involved are only 700 for the vanguard armyand 1500 for the main army maybe there is a case for the following restrictions.....

Vanguard
1: A single minimal core unit being compulsory (eg 10 archers).
2: Maximum 1 L2 caster.
3: Maximum 1 Heavy Cavalry unit in Vanguard
4: No War Machines/Monstrous creatures
5: No BSB but all units can use general's leadership and reroll any leadership tests.(Having a BSB in Vanguard seems unlikely from a story telling point of view but at same time the vanguard would most likely be specialised veteran troops so high leadership and rerolls would make sense.)

Main Army
Usual Army restrictions.

Scenario Rules

1: Modified Dawn Attack deployment.Main Army (Defenders)deploys first as per map in brb(1 left, 2 right,3/4 centre,5/6 reserves).Vanguard set up anywhere on their table side or more than 12" away from opponent's units. Defender has no Vanguard moves scouts can enter play from reserve from any table side for defender on D6 roll of 4+from turn 1. Roll off for first turn.
2: Shooting and Magic
Vanguard; no restrictions.
Defenders; units can only shoot/cast on a 4+ Turn 1,on a 2+ Turn 2 and as normal for remainder of game.
3: Vanguard Army can charge turn 1 even if they get first turn (to help create atmosphere of a smaller force striking from ambush against a larger force while).


Hope this gives some ideas for the campaign.

[dabber]

* Non-vanguard armies roll for each unit, holding it back as reserves on a 1 (similar to the meeting engagement scenario)

I think that is awful, especially with just a 1500 point army. It means a half dozen dice rolls at the start massively change the game. Think about the difference if you roll a 1 for your Great Eagle (no biggie) vs your unit of 12 Dragon Princes (game changer). Or worse, suddenly you roll 1s for your 20 White Lions AND your 20 Phoenix Guard.

[Eirik]

* Non-vanguard armies roll for each unit, holding it back as reserves on a 1 (similar to the meeting engagement scenario)

I think that is awful, especially with just a 1500 point army. It means a half dozen dice rolls at the start massively change the game. Think about the difference if you roll a 1 for your Great Eagle (no biggie) vs your unit of 12 Dragon Princes (game changer). Or worse, suddenly you roll 1s for your 20 White Lions AND your 20 Phoenix Guard.

The unit still enters play on the owners first turn (see the entry for meeting engagement) It just doesn't get to deploy during the deployment phase. This has the effect of causing them to deploy touching the board edge rather than anywhere in the deployment zone, and disallowing them from charging or marching on turn 1 (although they can still move and shoot). At worst this deprives the player of about 16'' of movement and a first turn counter charge.

[Eirik]

Vanguard
1: A single minimal core unit being compulsory (eg 10 archers).
2: Maximum 1 L2 caster.
3: Maximum 1 Heavy Cavalry unit in Vanguard
4: No War Machines/Monstrous creatures
5: No BSB but all units can use general's leadership and reroll any leadership tests.(Having a BSB in Vanguard seems unlikely from a story telling point of view but at same time the vanguard would most likely be specialised veteran troops so high leadership and rerolls would make sense.)

I actually toyed with most of these ideas at one point or another, but eventually dropped it. The two reasons were
1) none of the above is really imbalanced
2) even though some of those might not seem like a traditional vanguard, I want to see some creative and interesting van armies from my players

So if they want a L4 caster raining down fireballs that's fine. If they want two units of heavy cav that's great too. There are some armies whose core would be great in a van (WE, for example) and others who would just get stick wasting 100 points on dead weight (HE and ogres). Some units use monsters in the place of heavy cav or chariots, so I allow that.

I like the variety of vanguards you can create with the restrictions relaxed.

[Paricidas]

Things that I think vanguards are used for:

Reconnaisance
Forage
Fighting enemy Vanguard
Occupation of strategic points befor battle

None of these tasks would fluffwise ever be lead by anybody as important as a lvl 4 or a prince. Leting a BSB or a mage be part of the vanguard is like Theclis with chaos armor. Gamewise it would work, but from a fluffy point of view that would be blasphemy. If your gaming circle likes to call out fatwas, I would be cautios .

[Eirik]

Things that I think vanguards are used for:

Reconnaisance
Forage
Fighting enemy Vanguard
Occupation of strategic points befor battle

None of these tasks would fluffwise ever be lead by anybody as important as a lvl 4 or a prince. Leting a BSB or a mage be part of the vanguard is like Theclis with chaos armor. Gamewise it would work, but from a fluffy point of view that would be blasphemy. If your gaming circle likes to call out fatwas, I would be cautios .

Fluffwise, every 2500 point battle I fight with the forces of Ulthuan represents about 1/4 of our race's remaining military, and in the case of foes like skaven or goblins, represents one tuesday's worth of their breeding. We don't let the fluff get to us too much

[Azaireal]

Things that I think vanguards are used for:

Reconnaisance
Forage
Fighting enemy Vanguard
Occupation of strategic points befor battle

None of these tasks would fluffwise ever be lead by anybody as important as a lvl 4 or a prince. Leting a BSB or a mage be part of the vanguard is like Theclis with chaos armor. Gamewise it would work, but from a fluffy point of view that would be blasphemy. If your gaming circle likes to call out fatwas, I would be cautios .

Fluff-wise, it makes the most political sense to put the second-born/uncle/political threat in places where he is at most risk of... retiring. Not to mention Vizers named Jaffar.

Then there's always the 'heroic' types, Don Quixotes, and generals who ate the rest of their army.

on topic...
Vanguard: No percentages or minimum core. A designated unit champion maybe general. Maximum of 2 of each unit.

Examples: Dark Elf unkillable Dreadlord with two Hydras VS High Elf mage lvl 2 (high magic-seer, Vauls/Flames) with flaming White Lions and Swordmasters...

The idea is that the 700 point lists can be a serious threat to a 1500 point list, so the 1500 point lists wont just walk right over them (you'll have to try a little bit to a serious fight to the death). It will also force 1500 point lists to come up with counters to the broken 700 point lists.

Generally, a very bloody battle.

[Curu Olannon]

I haven't read the thread (save for the OP), but here are my thoughts:

- big points mainly come into play when you're able to force concentrate. for melee armies, this takes time
- to allow small points to fight big points, deployment and limiting turns can be key
- manipulating the non-combat phases of the game can help a tailored small force compete with a bigger force for a limited period of time
- VP charts probably have to be changed to reflect the nature of the engagement, i.e. what is usually counted as a success for the vanguard?

[Eirik]

I eventually settled on the following:

Vanguards fight battles using special rules when attacking (this clarifies any ambiguity when two vanguards meet)
* An attacking vanguard always gets the first turn, even if they pray
* Their opponent rolls for each unit before deploying, holding it in reserves on a 1
* Their opponent misses their first magic phase
* Their opponent cannot fire war machines during their first shooting phase
* The Vanguard's units may withdraw from the battle by willingly moving over a board edge
* Withdrawn units grant victory points but do not count as casualties

So effectively the vanguard can run to your end of the map, kill some of your stuff, then try to get off the board before you can hit back. You won't win any battles or take territories this way, but you can damage enemy forces. I like this better than just lowering the number of turns because it makes better fluff sense and puts some interesting strategic decisions into the hands of the vanguard.

Background information: In the campaign, each casualty model rolls a die at the end of the fight and is 'killed' (removed from the list permenantly) on a 1 or 2.

[saintjon]

Why not give a percentage of points discount for units that make more sense in a Vanguard? Like any unit with Scouts or Fast Cavalry rule is discounted 15%, Monstrous Beasts units (which tend to be scrappy fast hounds and stuff in my experience) get a discount, non-Fast cavalry get a discount but a smaller one, Flyers get a discount. Still allows room for creativity but allows people who are rolling with the theme to field a more competitive force. I must say, certain monsters make all kind of sense to be in a Vanguard, they tend to have high M values or Fly. I find your concept interesting.

Edit: oops I somehow missed the last post. Some people are going to be left with very small armies after a couple battles!