The Nine Lore Challenge

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Rabidnid
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#31 Post by Rabidnid »

Pash wrote: The List

Archmage (Heavens) - Level 4, Dispell Scroll, Loremaster's Cloak, Ring of Fury = 360

Noble (Light) - Battle Standard, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Luckstone, Dragon Armour, Shield = 168

Mage (Heavens) - Level 2, Annulian Crystal = 175


24x Spears - Full Command, Standard of Discipline = 256

10x Archers - Musician = 115
10x Archers - Musician = 115
10x Archers - Musician = 115


20x White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Ruby Ring of Ruin = 405

20x Swordmasters - Full Command, Standard of Balance, Ironcurse Icon = 380

5x Dragon Princes - Musician = 160

Eagle = 50
Eagle = 50
Eagle = 50

Total = 2399pts

I would consider dropping the scroll for the staff of solidity, just so you can throw 6 dice at the boosted comet for the first couple turns. It would cause absolute chaos to horde armies, with all of the detachments and weapon teams all being targeted by the spell. A delay of a turn would not be a bad thing either as the S-8/S10 would be destructive to practically anything.
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Scalenex1
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#32 Post by Scalenex1 »

I'm a LM player who moonlights as a HE player. I'm working on an experimental Heavens centered list for LM that could probably translate to HEs.

Skink priests have no options but Heavens. The Warhammer community views Heavens as weak lore, and I've been needlessly tied to predominant opinion. Combined with the awesomeness that is Slann (and my my fondness for Shadows and Life magic) I've hardly ever used skink priests or the Lore of Heavens. That changes Friday. I plan to play two (three time permitting) with a LM army based on the lore of Heaven. I've also been trying to figure out a way to make a flying skink character worthwhile. Conventional wisdom is that a flying skink priest is of little value unless he can have Wind Blast or bettery yet Chain Lightning, but you can't guarantee this. I figured out with Mathhammer that if a Slann takes Heavens and no Lore Mastery you can guarantee the flying skink priest has Chain Lightning and have a good chance of also having Wind Blast.

So the flying skink priest sets himself up for nasty wind blast and chain lightning attacks. The goals is to make my opponent make a hard choice every round between dispelling the chain lightning from the priest or Comet of Casadora from the Slann. Against an army with lots of shooting the priest will have to stay in a skirmisher bunker for cover to get in position to hit the gunline (and judicious use of Iceshard blizzard will be neccesary). Against a low shooting army I figure my LM would hang back and make the foe come to me hitting them with as much attack spells as I can spare.

The same concept would be even easier to implement with HEs than LM. You can take a L4 archmage with the Silver Wand and a L2 on an Elven steed to have the aforementioned 100% chance of having an expendable level 2 Havens wizard with Chain Lightning. You can instead take a L3 wizard with the Seerstaff to be guaranteed the spells outright and stick him on an eagle (a little pricey though). The latter is more points in the mobile wizard than Id prfer because they are basically hand grenades (you only really expect to get one good shot, maybe two before they are killed by shooting or a IF miscast).

I don't know what regular troops youd'd stick with said Heavens wizards. My instincts would be to fall back on Eagles and White Lions and Spearmen (MAYBE Shadow Warriors to escort the grenade wizard into position). Given that you need time to set up lighning combos, the mobility provided by cavalry seems less useful than it otherwise would be.
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de kaasboer
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#33 Post by de kaasboer »

while i like the idea of a heavens based list, i dont really understand why you think its important to have chain lighting on a mobile wizard? its not a vortex or anything, just a direct damage spell that can bounce right?

in your case i would probable take loremaster on the slann, and a lvl 2 in the hope to get double chain lighting and/or comet. or just make the skink lvl 1 and double up on the sig spell (which is really good and versatile imo)

with elves its probably a good idea to take a lvl 4 and a lvl2 with seerstaff. then take lots of archers as core and comet+signature or comet + reroll 1's on your seerstaff mage, and any 4 spells on the lvl 4 (hoping for double comet), or take a more combat orientated list and double on chain lighting instead of comet.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#34 Post by Pash »

I've since edited my list to the following:

Archmage (Heavens)- L4, Silver Wand, Talisman of Endurance, Ring of Fury

Mage (Heavens) - L2, Scroll

Mage (Metal) - Annulian Crystal

Noble - BSB, Acrmour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

24x Spears - FC, Standard of Discipline
10x Archers - Muso
10x Archers - Muso
10x Archers - Muso

18x White Lions - FC, Banner of Sorcery, Ironcurse Icon
19x Swordmasters - FC, Gleaming Pennant, Gem Of Courage
5x Dragon Princes - Muso

Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

The 7 rolls on Heavens basically means that my L4 can have all the high casting spells plus the base spell and the L2 can have the #1 spell (re-roll 1's) and the base spell. The magic phase should be pretty strong with an average of about 9-10PD and 6DD+Scroll. I have found that I get a little greedy and want to cast all my spells each phase so I do have to remember to prioritise sometimes as I have foolishly thrown away good magic phases by stretching my dice a little too much.

The two Elite infantry units will put me in good stead, I think. The White Lions are more expensive than I would have liked but they'll usually have the BSB with them and I do need the Banner of Sorcery to keep my magic phase useful.

Overall, i'm about 90% happy with this list. I would have liked to fine-tune it a little more but the submission deadline is next monday so I guess I don't have that time available to me.

Looking forward to seeing how this performs in a tough setting.
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Rabidnid
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#35 Post by Rabidnid »

This may be a dumb question, but who are you allowed 3 eagles? I thought the limit was 2 rares of the same type under 3,000 points.
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Leitran
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#36 Post by Leitran »

High Elves are different. We get 4 Rare and 6 Special duplicates to represent the "Elite Army".
Page 89 – Choosing an Army
Add “Elite Army
The High Elves are few in numbers, but their armies are
trained and equipped to standards so high that they are the
envy of all other races. To represent this, an army may include
up to 6 of each Special choice (up to 12 in a Grand Army) and
up to 4 of each Rare choice (up to 8 in a grand army).”
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Rabidnid
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#37 Post by Rabidnid »

Leitran wrote:High Elves are different. We get 4 Rare and 6 Special duplicates to represent the "Elite Army".
And army book over-rides BRB. Cool.
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HERO
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#38 Post by HERO »

Rabidnid wrote:
Leitran wrote:High Elves are different. We get 4 Rare and 6 Special duplicates to represent the "Elite Army".
And army book over-rides BRB. Cool.
Yeah, FAQ also > army book :D
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Scalenex1
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#39 Post by Scalenex1 »

de kaasboer wrote:while i like the idea of a heavens based list, i dont really understand why you think its important to have chain lighting on a mobile wizard? its not a vortex or anything, just a direct damage spell that can bounce right?

in your case i would probable take loremaster on the slann, and a lvl 2 in the hope to get double chain lighting and/or comet. or just make the skink lvl 1 and double up on the sig spell (which is really good and versatile imo)

with elves its probably a good idea to take a lvl 4 and a lvl2 with seerstaff. then take lots of archers as core and comet+signature or comet + reroll 1's on your seerstaff mage, and any 4 spells on the lvl 4 (hoping for double comet), or take a more combat orientated list and double on chain lighting instead of comet.
I wanted to try it because I'm in an experimental phase and the model for the flying Skink looks really cool. My first debut of my Heavens Slann plus flying skink did not do well. Lone characters are naturally exposed so I'd want to double up Iceshard Blizard next time to nullify some shooting. Also with 24" range is pretty long so I didn't gain much from a highly mobile chain lightning caster.

My next iteration of a Heavens based/Flying Skink combo, I'm going to try to set up the skink with Wind Blast instead of Chain Lightning. That'll do well with my friend's common tendency to deploy his units very close together. I am unlikely to want to try loremaster for the Slann because I want to trim 50 points from its cost.
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Pash
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#40 Post by Pash »

What use do you guys see for Wind Blast? I am struggling to find it useful at all. I mean, pushing an enemy back 2"-8" is situational at best. I mean, I guess when you're facing things with an area effect (Thundertusk Aura, BSB, General) then there COULD be some use of it but most of the time I don't think there is much it can do. I'd rather cast Comet or even Thunder for a bit of damage.

I just feel like i'm missing a trick. In what situations have you guys found it useful?
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#41 Post by Rabidnid »

I only see the ability to cause damage by pushing units into each other as any use. Disturbing someone's charge in your turn by pushing them back a couple inches, or perhaps pushing a unit into a spot where it will need to formation change to get out, all seem possible but far from practical.

Its the spell I would turn into the signature spell every time.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#42 Post by Curu Olannon »

Pash wrote:What use do you guys see for Wind Blast? I am struggling to find it useful at all. I mean, pushing an enemy back 2"-8" is situational at best. I mean, I guess when you're facing things with an area effect (Thundertusk Aura, BSB, General) then there COULD be some use of it but most of the time I don't think there is much it can do. I'd rather cast Comet or even Thunder for a bit of damage.

I just feel like i'm missing a trick. In what situations have you guys found it useful?
Agreed. I do see synergy with flame cage, though it's probably next to impossible to get off.
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SpellArcher
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#43 Post by SpellArcher »

Pash wrote:What use do you guys see for Wind Blast?
Pushing a war machine off a hill? Pushing a unit onto a comet marker? Pushing a powerful unit back so it no longer has a charge on?

Yeah, situational though.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#44 Post by Adasi »

war machine wouldn't move - it would just take the hits
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#45 Post by SpellArcher »

Why not?
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Prince of Spires
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#46 Post by Prince of Spires »

I would say they would move. Warmachines are able to move (using the crew movement characteristic), so they would be moved back.

Only warmachines deployed in buildings can't move. So they would take the hits.

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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#47 Post by Adasi »

warmachine dont have a movement statistic generally and so can't move.

i believe that somewhere in the BRB it says if a warmachine is forced to move for any reason it is destroyed but can't quite place where i may have read that!

Doesn't the spell say (dont have BRB at work with me) that if a unit can't for whatever reason move, it just takes the hits?
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#48 Post by Prince of Spires »

I can't find the passage you are referring to in the BRB. I can find the following on warmachines and movement. BRB P109:
The warmachine can move using the rules for lone models. Use the crews movement characteristic to determine how far the warmachine can move.

So a warmachine can move. The only exception to this is when a warmachine is deployed in terrain (other then hills or open ground). If you deploy in terrain you can't move at all (except pivot).

Otherwise you were right. If you can't move, you always take the hits (you actually take more hits).

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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#49 Post by Pash »

What happens when you have to Flee but fail your Strength Test for Net of Amynhok? Do you stop Fleeing and take hits? Do you Flee but don't move and still take hits or do you just flee and take hits?

It's one that's been on my mind for some time.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#50 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think you stay in place.

The text of the spell specifically reads:
The unit must past a S test every time it moves (included moving as ... fleeing) ... If the test is failed the unit stays in place and takes the hits.

So per the wording of the spell, you don't move.

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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#51 Post by Pash »

The Lore Of Heavens
Part two of my challenge. Again, i've basically summarised it below.

The List
Lords
Archmage (Heavens) - Level 4, Silver Wand, Talisman of Endurance, Ring of Fury

Heroes
Mage (Heavens) - Level 2, Dispell Scroll

Mage (Metal) - Annulian Crystal

Noble - BSB, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Core
24x Spearmen - Full Command, Standard of Discipline
10x Archers - Musician
10x Archers - Musician
10x Archers - Musician

Special
18x White Lions - Full Command, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery

19x Swordmasters - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant, Gem of Courage

5x Dragon Princes - Musician

Rare
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

Total = 2399pts

The Strategy
Basically, the plan here was to delay the enemy as much as possible and pelt them with damage from a distance and then once combat hits, throw in the buffs to augment my two blocks so that they would always win out. With 5 spells on the Archmage and 2 on the L2, I basically took all the spells bar Wind Blast, doubling up on the base spell.
The Archmage always went in the Spearman bunker for LD10 bubble with the other characters hanging about in the units surrounding. I always deployed on one flank or another which usually meant my enemy had to swing their entire army around to face me, which usually left a few units out of reach.
The event was also a bring your own terrain type which meant I could pick suitably large terrain to help me funnel my opponent towards my fighting blocks.

The Comp
-Sheffield Slaughter used South Coast GT comp pack, version 1.5
-2400, special characters allowed
-PD capped at max +2 outwith channelling
-20-0 system over 5 games
-Bring your own terrain to every game
-Heavy soft scores included (mainly, the 30 points for painting)

The Event
Game 1 - Dark Elves
Enemy Lore - Dark Magic.

The gist:
-Opponent had a standard build with Hydra, flying Master and cauldron and Black guard. I threw a Comet near his Black Guard turn 2, he turned them round to run away and I eventually killed them with combat.
-Very friendly game against a new-ish opponent. Should have really ended up more points for me but we both lost our Archmages so it was a very high points game.

Result: 13-7 win, 1985vps-1421vps.

Game 2 - Empire
Enemy Lore - Shadow

The gist:
-My opponent bunkered up and placed the Steam Tank on the same flank as me, stopping me from advancing on him until I dealt with it. Didn't manage to Searing Doom the Stank after two failed attempts at 6-dice (once rolling a 9 on all of them!) which meant I couldn't get to him and decided to stay back.
-Placed an excellent Comet right in the middle of all of his artillery which took off a few wounds off each and meant my Eagle (on 1 wound!) could come in and take them off.
-Decided to conserve points and take what I can rather than lose it all.

Result: 5-15 loss, 355vps-1200vps

Game 3 - High Elves
Enemy Lore - High Lore

The gist:
-Relatively new opponent with 56(!) Swordmasters in two units and no Bolt Throwers.
-My opponent made a categorical mistake deploying a unit of Archers in front of one of the blocks of Swordmasters, right in front of my Dragon Princes who charged them turn 2. This meant he had to go round the unit and waster turns while I used my magic missiles to wipe up his units. Ended up clearing up the table and taking every single model off :/

Result: 20-0 win, 2674vps-498vps

Game 4 - Warriors of Chaos
Enemy Lore - Tzeench, Fire

The gist:
-I had thought that this favoured my army as it was all combat oriented. Started well with me killing his general (a L1 Fire mage) on turn 1 with my Dragon Princes.
-He Irrisitible Gateway'd my entire unit of Swordmasters on turn 2 which swung the game.
-One crucial charge on his Knights and BSB failed to hit a flank (it was a 4+ call) and my White Lions didn't manage to kill enough over 4 combats and died.
-Tried to take points where I could but it was a lost cause. I hate the Puppet :(

Result: 2-18 loss, 280vps-1628vps

Game 5 - Vampires (Old Book)
Enemy Lore - Vampires, Light (Loremaster)

The gist:
-I hate old Vamp book, never could do that great against it and this was the typical GG Deathstar build.
-Managed to funnel his army to my corner while flanking with Lions and Swordmasters. Cast 3(!) Comets which all came down and whittled about 15 Ghouls in both units.
-Ended up outplaying him and getting my buffs off in combat, which meant I basically took all his points and general and then everything crumbled. Took off every model.

Result: 20-0 win, 2620vps-708vps.

Tournament result: 25th/76

The Bottom Line
Heavens is a fun Lore. It is best suited a combat army with a few spells for dealing damage. Thunderbolt is a great spell because of it's strength and ability to be boosted. Chain Lighting has good potential but can often disappoint. Comet can cause havok for your opponnent and again has great potential but I found only about 2/3 of the ones I cast did any decent damage and again, it's unpredictable. I never used Wind Blast as I see very limited use for it.
The list I built was good, I felt. It could also work on a single L4 and a more proactive army but it means getting your wizard in enemy range and I tried to stay away from that. He only died in about 1 game at the tournament. I much prefer this build to the Book of Hoeth list I tried for Death. More versatility and more survivable. Still, I think either The Trickster's Pendant or the Earthing Rod is a better choice than Silver Wand. Too many times I wish I could control my enemies' miscast results.

Overall, Heavens is not as bad as people think it is. It doesn't have as much mega damage as other Lores but it can be equally devastating in combat. Seeing a unit of 7 Chaos Knights + BSB bounce off a unit of White Lions and do no damage is pretty hilarious. Iceshard Blizzard is also a spell i'd happily consider for my Radiant Gem Of Hoeth mage, due to its utility and low casting value. A good Lore for combat but lacks a serious punch.

The Final Word
Unreliable :wink:
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Rabidnid
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#52 Post by Rabidnid »

Pash wrote:The Lore Of Heavens
The Final Word
Unreliable :wink:
I don't know what you mean :)

Versus Dwarves at 1,500 points, I had a game where I sat on my own table edge pounding him with thunderbolts, ring of fury and archery, while he stopped most of the comets, chain lightning and ice shard blizzards. Everything I had failed ALL of their initial charges no matter how close they were until they were so close they couldn't fail, and I miscast 3 times on dice rolls using 2 or 3 dice. In the end I removed 3 of his 4 combat blocks with magic and shooting, one of his hand gunner blocks with archery and his artillery with my inept eagle, reavers and late arriving comet.

The game ended turn 5 when I had a comet I got off on turn 2 detonated (at strength 8 ) and removed all of his artillery, taking the game from a minor loss to a major win.

Even with my lvl 2 killing herself and wounding my lvl 4 with miscasts and the lvl 4 then miscasting on 2 dice to give herself another wound, Heavens was dominant. The sheer terror factor of chain and comet was worth it, and the practical damage of thunderbolt and restrictions of iceshard blizzard.

Its now my favourite lore.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#53 Post by Elithmar »

Rabidnid, I know what you mean. It's a very flexible lore - it has some strong damage spells, and some buffs/debuffs. A very strong lore! Especially against those damned stunties...

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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#54 Post by Pash »

The Lore Of Metal

Been a little while chaps and i'm as sad about that as you are. Mainly it has been due to lack of events that I have played in (although, I did get to run one, which was ace). I have been able to attend a two-dayer this past weekend, called the Storm Over Stirling.

The List

Lords
Archmage (Metal) - Level 4, Opal Amulet, Dispell Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Heroes
Noble - BSB, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Mage (High) - Level 2, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury

Core
24 x Spears - Musician, Standard, Standard of Discipline

15 x Archers - Musician, Standard

15 x Archers - Musician, Standard

Special
19 x White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Sorcery

19 x Swordmasters - Musician, Standard

19 x Swordmasters - Musician, Standard

Rare
Eagle

Eagle

Eagle

Total - 2400pts

The Strategy
To be honest, I did a lot of last-minute changes and in the end I took this list without playtesting it. Luckily, it didn't do too bad. The general idea was to keep things as cheap as possible and to conserve VPs, hence no champions or magic standards on the Swordmasters. I have so often taken a 4+ ward on the Archmage, I thought it too risky to not to take it this time but as it turns out he didn't really die in many games. He used the Opal Amulet only twice (failed both times, the cheeky bugger) and I had a use for the scroll in every game. The spell selection basically gave me 4 spells on Metal and 4 on High Lore plus two bound items. As I was averaging about 9-12PD per phase (my channelling and the Banner were on fire all weekend!), that meant I had the opportunity to push through a LOT of spells and really bullied my opponents in the magic phase.
Anyway, the general idea was to get rid of the nasties (Mournfang, Chaos knights etc.) with the metal damage spells and buff the armour via Glittering Robe (which I luckily got in at least 5/6 of my games) and Shield of Saphery, which thinning the enemy ranks via my mass magic missile spam. Then my elites got in and finished the job, while the Eagles did what they do best and redirect and let me pick my fights.

The Comp
Pretty light-weight really;
-Most races limited to only +2PD/DD in each phase, +3PD for High Elves
-Look Out Sirs for the major damage spells (including Transmutation)
-6 games, 3 missions and 3 Battleslines (hence the number of standards in my units)
-200VPs per 1TP on the victory chart, which is quite brutal for armies that cannot get massive wins without losing a lot of stuff ie. the Asur.

The Event
Game 1 (Battleline)- Skaven
Enemy Lore - Ruin and Plague

The gist:
-Two Abombs and a Verminlord but no Slaves. Not a great match-up against the HE but I managed to do fairly well. Killed one Abomb and the Verminlord by Turn 3 but the other Abomb ran through my army netting plenty kills.
-Very bloody game against a new opponent. Not a bad result for a bad match-up.

Result: 10 - 10 Draw, 1936vps - 1970vps.

Game 2 (Break-point)- Beastmen
Enemy Lore - Lore of the Wild

The gist:
-This game was against a club-mate and we have played this sort of match up before. To be honest, I made few mistakes, the dice were in my favour and it's a hard match-up for the Beastmen. I managed to take off all his models by turn 5.

Result: 20 - 0 Win, 2650vps - 378vps.

Game 3 (Battleline)- Ogres
Enemy Lore - Maw and Fire

The gist:
-Pretty standard Ogre netlist against a player that I often play at least once a year at local events and it's always a solid game. The guy got a crucial Trollguts in the second turn which meant all my combat units bounced and started to be ground out. Luckily, I managed to keep reducing his armour save via Plague of Rust so that even Archer fire did some wounds each phase. Took his Gutstar of 9 Ironguts plus BSB and Slaughtermaster down to just 5 models after 1 phase of magic missiles and shooting.
-Lots of stuff died here and to be honest he got lucky that I didn't finish his character bunker off (Crown of Command :( ).

Result: 10 - 10 Draw, 1596vps - 1612vps

Game 4 (Seize Ground)- Warriors of Chaos
Enemy Lore - Tzeench + Third Eye

The gist:
-Played this guy before and felt that I should have had the upper hand being Metal against Warriors and him having no knights and a large unit of Trolls. Managed to do really well and kill a hell of a lot of stuff, leaving him with only a Hellcannon, a L2 on disk and a unit of 12/18 Tzeench warriors. Sadly, you had to capture an objective and as his unit was right on it, it took the game from my favour to another damn draw, despite the points difference.

Result: 10 - 10 Draw, 1860vps - 824vps

Game 5 (Dawn Attack)- Dark Elves
Enemy Lore - Shadow & Fire

The gist:
-Pretty standard DE netlist again and having the magic missiles that I did, I thought I'd do ok. It started well when I took out his flying Pendant guy with an irresistible Searing Doom (hurray for no flaming ward!), sadly the miscast took out my Glittering scales in turn 2, which left my Swordmasters to advance alone into the crossbows and Fireballs of the enemy so a bit crap there.
-Didn't manage to finish off any points despite the Black Guard being down to 7/20, the Spears down to 1/30 and both the L4 and L2 on 1 wound each.

Result: 3 - 17 Loss, 190vps - 1597vps

Game 6 (Battleline)- Lizards
Enemy Lore - Heavens

The gist:
-This guys had FIVE steggadons. Engine (with Skink), Ancient and 3 baby stegs. No Slaan was a nice change and I was actually really anticipating this match up as I wasn't at all sure how it'd go. As it happens, after you Searing Doom the Skink off his Steg (2+ armour save for the win!), you can pretty much do what you want with the magic phase and I made sure I picked the match-ups I wanted by cleaver use of Eagles.
-A unit of Swordmasters, even with Enchanted Blades, are no match for an Ancient Steg - remember that.
-A unit of White Lions, however, is a brilliant match agains even two baby stegs and an overrun into an Engine :D
-Took off everything apart from the Old Blood general who was standing in a rather messy pile of dead bodies (30 Swordmasters, 10 White Lions, 35 Saurus, Scarvet etc) on 1 wound.

Result: 15 - 5 Win, 2364vps - 1341vps


Tournament Result: 10th/30

The Bottom Line
Metal is not what you think it is. People tend to think it's brilliant against armoured foes and terrible against low-armoured troops. Well, after this weekend I can say that neither of those facts are true. It it not *that* good against armour due to it's high casting cost and it's not terrible against armour because of the buffs and hexes. Even low-armoured opponents start panicking once you take off their lowly armour save and start casting S4 Magic Missiles. The big dissapointment of this Lore is; it's high costing value, limiting it to a L4 or a L1 suicide mage; the lack of bubble spells. While Glittering Robes is awesome, I would have liked to be able to boost out Enchanted Blades for a better shooting phase also. As it were, I usually exchanged the Blades for the Searing Doom. Golden Hounds can also be used as a *slightly* cheaper Searing Doom, if range isn't an issue. I used it best for characters who don't get a LoS roll in units (Doombull in Gor unit, Steggadons). Transmutation of Lead has great potential but again, too expensive and lacked the bubble ability. Useful for when you have cast Plague Of Rust (which is a great spell to cast on 1 dice at the end of the phase, coincidentally) and you need to push through some damage or for Ogres to hit you on 5's. I found myself doing my spells in this order: Ruby Ring (1 dice), Ring of Fury (1 Dice), Searing Doom (2 Dice), Vaul's Unmaking (3 Dice), Glittering Robe boosted (4 Dice), Shield/Plague of Rust (1 Dice). Managed about 4 of those usually. Metal and High is an excellent combo.

The Final Word
Expensive :?
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#55 Post by Pash »

Over 100 views on this page since I've posted up the Metal results and no one has had a comment. Humm, interesting.

Anyone else have experience with Metal? Agree/disagree with my assessment? Would be nice to make this into more of a discussion.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#56 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I went with metal for my first two games:
500p, a lvl1 with the signature. I was vsing dawi and it did quite well. I only had one spell so the casting value didn't worry me too much ^_^
1000p, I had a lvl4 and Enchanted Blades made my Reavers and Seaguard shoot like heroes. I was throwing a lot of dice at it though(stupid dawi) and miscast early =(

Metal as a lore can be rewarding, but I'm not sure they are worth the high cost.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#57 Post by dabber »

I really appreciate the "bottom line" review at the end. It matches my own experience against Metal (never used it myself). Transmutation is clearly either underpowered or overpriced, or both. It never bothered me much to have my opponent cast it. I tended to have the same attitude towards Enchanted Blades, although I can see that working a little better with a horde of archers. Seering Doom is great in the right matchup (heavy cavalry), but goes to basically worthless against many enemies. Golden Hounds is a waste of text.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#58 Post by Rabidnid »

I see it as a boutique lore. Final transmutation is a great terror spell that can break an opponent in a single turn, and is sufficiently cheap that it is a viable seerstaff lvl 2 spell. The other spell is more debatable, but searing doom or glittering robe would both be good choices. Combine is with a generalist main lore like shadow or high, and you will have a solution to most things most games.
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#59 Post by Arch Mage »

Whats next? :)
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600 trolls and climbing! :mrgreen:
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[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=40633&p=775432#p775432]if you are drowning out there as a beginner, I hope this helps.[/url][/color]

[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=40964&p=778044#p778044]my army lists[/url]
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Re: The Nine Lore Challenge

#60 Post by Pash »

Hey guys,

I realise there hasn't been much of an update recently but fear not! I have been away sunning myself up on the beach and now I refreshed and ready to get back into it.

My next two events are the ETC 6 Nations in Belfast (2nd June-3rd June), where I will be using a dragon-based list with support magic and after that there is a local one-dayer called Cry Havok (16th June), where I will be testing out The Lore of Light.

Firstly, I go over my dragon list. As it's only using 2 L2s and a Star Dragon, i'm not going to count it towards my Challenge. It doesn't let me explore the magic Lores enough and it's not what the list is about. However, it may give you a good idea of good support roles for your lesser mages.

Prince - Star Dragon, Dragon Armour, Vambraces, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Other Trickster's Shard - 624pts.

Noble - BSB, Great Eagle, Dragon Armour, lance, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix - 222pts

Mage (High) - Level 2, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury - 185pts

Mage (Fire) - Ring of Rhuin, Scroll - 145pts

15x Archers - Musician - 170pts

15x Archers - Musician - 170pts

30x Spearmen - Musician, Standard - 285pts

17x Swordmasters - Musician - 261pts

18x White Lions - Musician, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 338pts

2x Eagles - 100pts

Total = 2500pts


It's by far not the best list (no champions and not enough Eagles) but it was the best list I could come up with before the list submission deadline and, in my opinion, the best HE list in the event (there are 2 others, both dragon lists). Having had a look at all the other countries lists, I am happy with having my characters in dragon armour. There are so many flaming attacks, it's insane! With hindsight, I would have liked to include a unit of Dragon Princes with a Muso but I guess i'll cope.



Back to the task at hand, my next experimentation will be with The Lore of Light. Here is my list so far (still requires fine-tuning):

Archmage (Light) - Level 4, Silver Wand, Folariath's Robe, Talisman of Saphery = 350pts

Noble (Light) - BSB, Gem of Hoeth, Luckstone, Dragon Armour, Shield = 168pts

Mage (Light) - Level 2, Seerstaff (Banishment, Pha's Protection) = 165pts

Mage (Light) - Dispell Scroll = 120pts

14 x Archers - Musician = 159pts

14 x Archers - Musician = 159pts

28 x Spears - Musician, Standard, Banner of Discipline = 282pts

5 x Dragon Princes - Musician = 160pts

20 x Swordmasters - Musician = 306pts

20 x White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Sorcery = 380pts

3 x Eagles = 150pts

Total = 2400pts

The idea is pretty obvious - ram two Banishment's at the enemy per turn, backed up with a few Pha's for damage limitation on my two combat blocks, while the Eagles do what they do best and redirect and get me some combat res by charging flanks. The Dragon Princes are a nice touch, I think Timewarp has some decent potential with them. 25 attacks (15 S5) is quite some considerable damage from such a cheap unit - almost worthy of a Mournfang unit!

So that's my plans so far. Feel free to pop a comment on your thoughts and ideas :D
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